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  1. #26
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Only time I ever traited deep into blue was growing up, after Moria, I stopped, because it was more of a hinderance, than a help.

  2. #27

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    The yellow trait line is certainly overkill for small group content (3 and 6 person) and is completely unnecessary in raid skirmishes or draigoch. But from my experience, regular raid content (ToO atm) is pretty much based around an assumption that boss mobs are debuffed with lore-master debuffs at all times. There's a number of fights where I'll notice if I've forgotten to refresh a debuff simply because the tank starts dying quicker than the healer can keep up. Full uptime for especially the three main lore debuffs goes a long way to keeping a group alive, particularly if you're new to the fight and the healer is having to heal up errors from people making mistakes. When your group is learning a fight, a yellow line lore-master is an invaluable asset.

    And as for cc, it's similarly unnecessary in most small group content but is highly important for getting through raid trash and some raid boss fights alive.
    I've honestly never encountered a group that cared. They needed an extra dps or they needed me to keep somebody stunned or needed corruption removal or SI. I'm not a regular raider but the debuff abilities are not requested when I've run various ToOs. Perhaps it's that many don't fully appreciate those skills. As a result I've not cared to trait yellow and certainly not for solo content. Thus I throw out debuffs casually while traited mostly red, and a mix of blue/yellow. The hassle of retraiting also encourages me to stay in this configuration. For fun I'll go all yellow sometime, even if nobody appreciates it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c2140000000105d2/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  3. #28

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    I have used blue line many times to do skirmishes. Red line lacks the cc necessary to handle some of the big pulls in some skirmishes, at least in my experience. I can do skirmishes as red, but blue is much easier. Bog Guardian flanks like crazy and holds aggro very well. The healing traits make it so I never worry about him dying. Could blue use a buff? Sure it could. It is the weakest and surely least-played trait line for LM. That doesn't mean that it isn't capable of doing what it is meant to do: provide a fairly decent tank for those that wish to play that way. I use red line for landscape play, but if I am going to do some hard solo skirmishes, then I will go blue.

  4. #29

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar View Post
    The Bog Lurker is hugely useful, especially when it comes to land rushes which happen with new content .. an instant long-ranged attack to claim quest target mobs while most other classes are running to it or trying to get a spell off.
    Or you could just cast Wizard's Fire - instacast and cast on the run.

    I used to be 5 blue with lurker, but found it too much of a pain to force the bog lurker into melee range for flanks in instances. Having switched to eagle, there was no need to trait so far into blue. I was 4 blue, 3 red for a while, but now I have gone 5 yellow + master of staff + improved flanking.

    This works fine in (almost) all PvE content, including soloing. I now find encounters in T2 solo skirmishes easier than with any other set-up - I can now tank them without having to run around kiting them for the second half of the fight.
    Last edited by Uldarion1; May 18 2012 at 05:51 AM.
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  5. #30
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Ive been playing a lm for about a year and a half now since I started lotro and tbh after end game Ive never used the eagle or blue trait line for any end game stuff I always have my Si and Sd traited with either reds or yellow's but tbh Raiding ToO t2 always run with yellow's for trash n red's for boss RoF foundry reds through the whole thing tbh Only thing I could possibly think blue's useful for is if you wanted to trait down that line I have a friend lm where he got the blue line pvp set and traited blue's and he did heal while we did some 3 mans and flipped the moors map with another but in all honestly blue line just bother's me as much as having to waste eagle as a legendary trait spot :/ just my opinion tho
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  6. #31
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    Dec 2010
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    567

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispian View Post
    I've honestly never encountered a group that cared. They needed an extra dps or they needed me to keep somebody stunned or needed corruption removal or SI. I'm not a regular raider but the debuff abilities are not requested when I've run various ToOs. Perhaps it's that many don't fully appreciate those skills. As a result I've not cared to trait yellow and certainly not for solo content. Thus I throw out debuffs casually while traited mostly red, and a mix of blue/yellow. The hassle of retraiting also encourages me to stay in this configuration. For fun I'll go all yellow sometime, even if nobody appreciates it.
    Well, people shouldn't be requesting debuffs. It's like asking minis to heal and hunters to pew pew.

    I agree that debuffs are unappreciated, but don't let ignorant players dissuade you from your contributions.

    Regarding dps, Rast and I are of the opinion that AM contributes more to group-dps than MoNF (for boss fights). Here, I want to emphasize group-dps, not personal-dps. We have no empirical data to support this claim, but if you add up all the little ways a LM contributes to the group, it seems plausible.

    Back to the original post, I echo the utility of KoA for hard solo and 3-person content (although I'm more apt to go AM for the lattter). Nonetheless, KoA could use some improvement, for sure.

  7. #32
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil View Post
    5 Blue; What's the point?
    There is no point. Honestly, there's no reason to trait more than 3, or occasionally very perhaps 4 blues. They really should rework this trait line.

    Okay, that was perhaps a bit too short of an answer. As has been sad, the lurker is nice for soloing old tough content. For the rest, it's nice for people who like the playstyle for sentimental reasons, much like burglar gamblers. It can be fun, but it's suboptimal in any end-game content.

    I really wish they'd finally do something about this.
    [CENTER][COLOR=#33ffcc]Ravanel (lore-master) | Ravalinde (rune-keeper) | Ravenwyn (captain)
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  8. #33

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    All classes have a traitline that is the least useful even useless and I don't think it can work otherwise. Classes have 1-2 roles and having a 3rd traitline supporting a 3rd role then there is a problem with class variety.

  9. #34
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    Nov 2010
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    257

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Despotis View Post
    All classes have a traitline that is the least useful even useless and I don't think it can work otherwise. Classes have 1-2 roles and having a 3rd traitline supporting a 3rd role then there is a problem with class variety.
    This problem doesn't seem hard to fix, at least to me.

    Red: DPS/Nukage

    Blue: Pet Usage/Healing

    Yellow: CC/Debuffs

    I half feel like why red line is so popular/overused is because the sheer amount of increased DPS it gives. If Lore Masters had more base DPS, and red line was reduced a bit, the blue and yellow lines would be far more valuable across all situations.

  10. #35

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    I have always thought of the blue line as a bit of a top up.

    So i either spec in 5 red...take a little something from blue. Or i spec 5 in yellow and take a little something from blue. Blue line has some handy traits in there, just overall i don't think it is as powerful or as useful as red or yellow (when you spec all the way in). I have tried the lurker pet, sure he flanks quite a bit but..meh the dmg is just the same as the other pets really.

    I do appreciate, for solo the blue line can be a safe bet with all the pet buffs and extra sustain. Though i never solo really, therefore it is not that useful to me.

    I have a friend who loves to trait in blue and he has adjusted his way of playing to fit in with groups/solo. Sure his damage is no where near the same as a red trait line and the debuffs might not be as improved as yellow, though he does bring the benefits of stronger heals and a stronger helping hand (pet) which can count for a lot when you do 3 man instances. If you got a good enough tank you may not even need a proper healer at all for them.

  11. #36

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Blue line is simply bad, end of.
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  12. #37
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil View Post
    and red line was reduced a bit


    :lol:

    I think the lore master is the lowest dps class of the moment, or can be like a guardian on single target, warden atm can do more damage for sure :P

    The point it's easy, lore amster debuff are unic and you need a debuffer no way, lore master never can be an healer because he need to debuff else every healer will be better than a lore master.
    For sure need an upgrade on healing like innerflame still too much low and with hot on become can become a good point for healing some skirmish or 3 man

  13. #38
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guiwinner View Post


    :lol:

    I think the lore master is the lowest dps class of the moment, or can be like a guardian on single target, warden atm can do more damage for sure :P

    The point it's easy, lore amster debuff are unic and you need a debuffer no way, lore master never can be an healer because he need to debuff else every healer will be better than a lore master.
    For sure need an upgrade on healing like innerflame still too much low and with hot on become can become a good point for healing some skirmish or 3 man
    I meant that LM's base damage would increase, and red line bonuses would decrease, which would keep overall dps the same, not reduced. As for LM's having the lowest dps in the game; sustained? maybe; AOE/Spike dps? No, sir, try again.

  14. #39
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guiwinner View Post
    I think the lore master is the lowest dps class of the moment, or can be like a guardian on single target, warden atm can do more damage for sure :P
    Red line, our single target dps has the potentially to outclass other non-dps oriented classes. AoE wise, we're awesome. No complaints here.

    As to the question of blue line, it's pretty much useless atm. Some people swear by it for soloing purposes, but honestly, that's a load of rubbish. If you really need something to tank for you while your leveling in this game, it's not the class that's the issue. Red line will allow you to burn through stuff significantly faster and more efficiently. No point in wasting time with a toad/AT-AT cross over.

    There was a brief time when it was practical. Back when the OD set made pet flank effects aoe, lm's were extremely viable off healers in blue line. It still wasn't exactly the most efficient use of our class, but if you're running two lm's in certain boss fights, it wasn't a bad idea. Gorth t2 comes to mind as one where I would trait blue while another lm went yellow. Honestly, I haven't traited it since then and probably won't again until they give us a comparable set bonus or upgrade the line in a similar manner. I'm just a little bitter that I didn't complete the set until a month or so before RoI, but iirc, the was true in a lot of lm's' cases. The OD set just took too long to complete to really be able to have widespread enjoyment of a cool set bonus.
    [CENTER]
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    [/COLOR][COLOR=#999999][B]~ Cirq - r13 LM - Apex - Elendilmir [/B]// [B]Cirone of Windfola ~[/B][B][I]
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  15. #40

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    no question - KoA is an awkward mix of pet improvement and heals. While most other classes have stances that suit their three trait lines, LMs don't, and I suspect it's primarily because of this dual purpose of KoA.

    Regardless, I have enjoyed playing a lot of content, both solo and group, with blue line capstone, complimented with yellow.

    I love the lurker. In groups she can sit back with me out of trouble, dealing out big damage and flanking all the time. Yet she's resilient enough to take on mobs herself if need be - if she goes down I can resummon her (no one has mentioned this, and it's sometimes key!). I focus improved flank, on either the healer or the main off-tank. the flanks come so often, the healer should never have to worry about healing my improved flank target. the tendancy is to put it on the tank, but the healer should already be focused on the tank so I put it elsewhere. with improved beacon of hope, we can throw out a pretty big heal every 20 seconds. LMs blue traited should be able to heal most 3-man content (tier I), yet still have a lot of cc skills and decent damage - you just have to accept that more of the damage comes from your pet.

    I tend to solo red more than blue because you can certainly get through things quicker and the eagle rez is nice when out on your own, but I handle tough content better in blue. From a personal enjoyment perspective, one thing that is appealing about the blue line vs red is that I tend to use all my skills rather than focus on the damage dealers.
    Last edited by SirBeegus; May 23 2012 at 11:22 AM.

  16. #41

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeegus View Post
    LMs blue traited should be able to heal most 3-man content, yet still have a lot of cc skills and decent damage - you just have to accept that more of the damage comes from your pet.
    For healing 3-mancontent 5 yellow or 5 red + imp Flanking and Light of Hope + eagle is better than 5 blue.
    As an AM or MoNF you "heal" more than a KoA. Faster mobkilling= less damage taken.
    Force of will= less damage taken.
    There are 3(Healer, imp. Flanking, Light of Hope and maybe PAAI) really lovely Traits in the KoA-line, but more than 3... there is no use.(exception soloing old groupcontent) And for the 1083627633th time. Combatsummoning should be part of Noble Savage not the boglurker.

    Combatsummoning should be available to every LM (but at the cost of a legendary trait). Though they are weak our pets are an important part of our healing and combat.

  17. #42

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tatharil View Post
    For healing 3-mancontent 5 yellow or 5 red + imp Flanking and Light of Hope + eagle is better than 5 blue.
    As an AM or MoNF you "heal" more than a KoA. Faster mobkilling= less damage taken.
    Force of will= less damage taken.
    There are 3(Healer, imp. Flanking, Light of Hope and maybe PAAI) really lovely Traits in the KoA-line, but more than 3... there is no use.(exception soloing old groupcontent) And for the 1083627633th time. Combatsummoning should be part of Noble Savage not the boglurker.

    Combatsummoning should be available to every LM (but at the cost of a legendary trait). Though they are weak our pets are an important part of our healing and combat.
    hmmm...good thoughts - I wonder which is better. I feel you get significant heals from the healing combo of imp flanking, light of hope and healer - improved inner flame is less great, but combined with healer and with less threat generation, it could be of use (though if I go blue, i typically pick PAAI and hardy companion to fill out the 5). The times i have healed with these three healing traits, people have been surprised with how much outgoing heals LMs have.

    as for combat summoning - I agree - I think Noble Savage (with combat summoning) makes more sense and would be the more appropriate capstone for the keeper of animals line, at least insofar as the pet improvement aspects go. it's the healing stuff that just doesn't fit. it is what it is.

  18. #43
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    well guys it's easy ... just show your epic dps in a signle target or if you like in aoe combat ( skirmish it's increased ) where you have a fight with more than 2 min ... cause dps can't be real if you start with ent and avoid the induction when dps start

    Well show the number ... and show how much dps you can do on a boss ... and i want see how many lore master have more than 1k on a boss

    Lore master have a great dps aoe with long cd ... but can have a big burst in 10 second a champ it's more sustained and well ... show numbers

  19. #44

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tatharil View Post
    Combatsummoning should be available to every LM (but at the cost of a legendary trait). Though they are weak our pets are an important part of our healing and combat.
    But if Blue is weaker than the other lines, it needs some advantage.

    One can't argue that blue sucks and then recommend that a cool blue-only talent should be given out to every LM.
    Last edited by Imirak; May 24 2012 at 11:27 AM.

  20. #45

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guiwinner View Post
    well guys it's easy ... just show your epic dps in a signle target or if you like in aoe combat ( skirmish it's increased ) where you have a fight with more than 2 min ... cause dps can't be real if you start with ent and avoid the induction when dps start

    Well show the number ... and show how much dps you can do on a boss ... and i want see how many lore master have more than 1k on a boss

    Lore master have a great dps aoe with long cd ... but can have a big burst in 10 second a champ it's more sustained and well ... show numbers
    If we could give a **** about our personal dps, which I for one couldn't.

    It ain't my job.

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  21. #46
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    The issue with the blue line is very simple: Pets suck atm.

    It's essentially a versatile, good solo and a good support line. Solo you've basically got the choice between Nuke-Red and CC-blue (Yellow is really wasted on solo play), while in groups you've got Buffing-Blue, Debuffing-Yellow and DPS-Red.

    The only real issue is traiting blue adds two things: Healing and Pet DPS/Survivability. Pets do next to no DPS even traited and their buffs don't really scale well, so that's not much use. And 2 out of 3 of our Healing skills (including the main one, Imp. Flanking) depends on our pet A LOT... And none of these depend on the line but on individual traits, which makes it a lot more mix-and-matchable than the other 2 lines.

    I like the blue line a lot myself, but rarely trait Friend of Nature... and then mostly for the in-combat summon when I'm supposed to be main-healing something and expect my Eagle to die along the way.
    Last edited by Ingaras; May 25 2012 at 09:41 AM.
    Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others...
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  22. #47
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    I use the lurker now and then, but I wouldn't complain if they made it a regular pet and replaced the blue capstone with AoE stun protection + AoE flank heals.
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  23. #48

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    all pets need to be revamped and refocused,
    bear should be able to tank properly solo(stun is a wasted skill) and tank maybe 1 mob in a group
    raven needs to be focused on buffing(evade thign is useless late game)
    lynx needs aoe turned into single target(to make rooom for saber)
    eagle is good where its at
    saber should inherit some from lynx(remove throat slash)
    lurker's skills seem good but still could be repurposed for fms
    limfrafrim is fine imo
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    lore-masters are like wolves, alone we're pretty great but in a pack...

  24. #49
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Blue line is still the best for easy soloing Nemesis & Arch-Nemesis baddies imo. Red and yellow often just don't cut it there, unless ofc the baddies can be CC'd.
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  25. #50
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Are you kidding? Blue line is frickin AWESOME! For deeding, that is.

    Buff up your pet, set it on aggressive in a high concentration of the type of mob you need to kill, and tab out of the game to read your e-mail. Just remember to tab in every once in awhile to make sure you don't auto-log.
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