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  1. #1
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    5 Blue; What's the point?

    It seems to me that going 5 blue is rather pointless. I'm not even entirely sure what real job blue line services. It's 1/3 sub par healing, 1/3 animal related, and 1/3 essential CC, like Dunadan-Learning. In raids, 5 yellow is simply the way to go. To an extent as well, but mostly for solo, Red is hard to walk outside without, considering the substantial DPS drop leaving it entails.

    Going deep into blue just doesn't really have any positives, at least from where I stand. As I said, some of the CC traits are good, and I almost always have at least two 2 blue, regardless of whether I slot 5 red or 5 yellow. But then, I find myself looking at utterly superfluous traits like Hardy Companion. Who on earth actually slots that in? Of course, we also have those couple of "meh" healing traits I eluded to earlier, which of course, only become worthwhile with heavy spending into a couple LI legacies, which in the long run, is not worth it.

    All in all, I really see no point in going deep into blue. Blue, in my humble opinion, needs to become a stronger avenue for healing and pet usage, whilst shifting around the current CC skills into yellow. Yellow and red could also use some worthwhile swaps, but that's besides the point.

    What say you, fellow Lore Masters? Rework the blue line, or keep it as is?

  2. #2
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    I guess the quick answer is the bonus you get from slotting ANY 5 of the 3 main lines.
    Not in game but for example, slotting 5 Red gets you the Sticky Tar bonus, Slotting 5 Blue gets you the (Bog Lurker, correct?) bonus. May not be exactly right but that's the idea I believe.

  3. #3
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    You're basically right, the trait line is all over the place and not worth traiting deeply into. imo the only genuine optimal use of the blue traitline is soloing tough content, particularly older group content. The bog lurker is the superior pet tank because it has a high flank rate, which for tough content is necessary for healing output, and is much more survivable than the other high-flank pets (eagle, raven). Sadly, even in a small group solo-healing role you're better off using 5-yellow/2-blue because the damage reduction from permanent debuffs outweighs the marginal extra healing you get from blue traits/bog-guardian FMs.

    Also why do you like dunedain learning so much? I don't think it's ever a really good trait to use, you're much better off choosing from healer/light of hope/improved flanking if you're using two blue. It's very rare that you need to keep SI up on more than two people (if you do, your group is probably doing something wrong like not potting diseases) and you certainly don't need dunedain learning to do that.
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  4. #4

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    There is no point

  5. #5
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    Also why do you like dunedain learning so much? I don't think it's ever a really good trait to use, you're much better off choosing from healer/light of hope/improved flanking if you're using two blue. It's very rare that you need to keep SI up on more than two people (if you do, your group is probably doing something wrong like not potting diseases) and you certainly don't need dunedain learning to do that.
    First boss in Roots of Fangorn comes instantly to mind, followed tightly by Rung + Blagh in Dar Narbugud. You can do these without it, but it's like rowing a canoe across the ocean. Dunedain Learning is like an all-included cruise. Now that wound/disease removal is insta-cast, you don't really need Healer any more, and Dunedain Learning can be handier. Besides, if your group is doing it wrong (eg not potting those diseases), YOU can still be the hero that saved the day with your extra SI. At least, that's why *I* pick Dunedain Learning over Healer. YMMV
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  6. #6
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Agrre with OP that Blue is probably least used, not worthless exactly but grouping yellow is king, solo/PvMP the red is the way. On previous posts though I love Dunedain learning, coupled with legacy you got 1.5 minutes to work an entire group into an SI rotation while still having plenty of time to do the essential other stuff. LMs who can do this are highly appreciated in my experience particularly in instances where stuns are willy nilly all over, like final boss of foundry etc.

    Dunedain learning..don't leave home without it (although obviously where fights don't stun it's not required)
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  7. #7

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    With due respect to those who have posted, if you do not see the point of something - especially not at all - you're probably missing something. I've done this myself, thinking that a skill or pet was so weak there was no point in using it. It always depends on the circumstances. I ran 5 blue for awhile, loving the flanks of the Lurker, keeping him healed, healing myself, controlling the fight through my pet (who I could summon during battle if he fell). It's a different way of playing and generally slower but well-suited for circumstances highlighted by Isharra and PsychobabbleJJ.

    It might seem like a mishmash of skills, but it's actually coherent. It is a CC style of playing via pet. Healing skills, pet skills, CC skills all go toward that end. I'm not saying it couldn't be improved (for instance, I also find Dunadan Learning underwhelming).
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  8. #8
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispian View Post
    With due respect to those who have posted, if you do not see the point of something - especially not at all - you're probably missing something. I've done this myself, thinking that a skill or pet was so weak there was no point in using it. It always depends on the circumstances. I ran 5 blue for awhile, loving the flanks of the Lurker, keeping him healed, healing myself, controlling the fight through my pet (who I could summon during battle if he fell). It's a different way of playing and generally slower but well-suited for circumstances highlighted by Isharra and PsychobabbleJJ.

    It might seem like a mishmash of skills, but it's actually coherent. It is a CC style of playing via pet. Healing skills, pet skills, CC skills all go toward that end. I'm not saying it couldn't be improved (for instance, I also find Dunadan Learning underwhelming).
    It still doesn't seem as effective. Sure, it can be fun, and that's of course important, but blowing things up with red line or constant CC with yellow seriously dominates blue line. Before Turbine added healing into blue, I was jumping around with joy, because I was thinking we'd be more captain like, but that really didn't come true. LM healing usually isn't enough for 3-mans and is superfluous in 6 mans with a Healer+Capt/Burg.

    Some more food for thought...

  9. #9

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Dunedain Learning vs Healer....
    Healer >>>>>> Dunedain Learning. Maybe Dunedain Learning is useful in the moores.. never been there.

    Dunedain learning can easily replaced by Sign of Power duration legacy on the book. 1 min duration is more than enough.
    Healer fastens share the power and decreases its powercost by 15% + the 10% healing to BoH WoC aren't bad either and can't be replaced by a simple legacy.

    I like blue... but only the 3 already mentioned traits. Healer, imp. Flanking, Light of Hope.
    The rest.... it's good for soloing old groupcontent, yes.

  10. #10
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    I think blue line lost its way pretty much, becoming a mish mash of pet traits and healing traits and not really being one or the other. I think this is by and large with the rise of the small fellowship content and trying to give loremasters the choice of DPS or Healing role (there being little room for a support in a group so small).

    I *never* use extensive blue line, though I often use 2 blues with the other traitlines, or even up to 3 in a hybrid build. I see no point in bog lurker - the ranged attacks are of limited value and you get, In my opinion, just as many flank effects from the eagle, which will also interrupt for you and drop a nifty in combat rez if you need it.

    The problem Turbine have got with the situation is that really Loremasters need 4 traitlines, to specialise in healing or pets, but not both. In truth, the whole pet situation is suffering at the moment. Pets need to be brought into the modern age, with their usefulness reflecting that they too have levelled to 75 - Their DPS is just awful. Captains seem to be much the same. When was the last time you saw a herald in a raid, rather than a banner?
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  11. #11
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil View Post
    What say you, fellow Lore Masters? Rework the blue line, or keep it as is?
    Blue is fine, makes LM soloing probably the easiest class to level in the game.

    No, it's has little purpose in grouping and none I can think of in raids, but that doesn't make it worthless at all.

    The Bog Lurker is hugely useful, especially when it comes to land rushes which happen with new content .. an instant long-ranged attack to claim quest target mobs while most other classes are running to it or trying to get a spell off.

    It all depends on playstyle and preference, for me the glowy orb is utterly worthless, I never use it because I never main heal in a group, an LM is SUPPORT and I trait for SUPPORT when in a group, there are too many 'must have' traits needed in that context to spare for the 'orb'.
    Last edited by Kraggy_Eldar; May 17 2012 at 08:16 AM.

  12. #12
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar View Post
    The Bog Lurker is hugely useful, especially when it comes to land rushes which happen with new content .. an instant long-ranged attack to claim quest target mobs while most other classes are running to it or trying to get a spell off.
    HAHAH! This really gave me a chuckle. Luckily I usually duo with a friend whose main is a hunter when running into new content, but sure - you've found a use for the BL I can't argue with. *still amused*
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  13. #13
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post
    HAHAH! This really gave me a chuckle. Luckily I usually duo with a friend whose main is a hunter when running into new content, but sure - you've found a use for the BL I can't argue with. *still amused*
    I would hasten to add that usually I would try to group with others who are after the same mob as me, but if they choose to play the 'compete for claim' game. Fred (my Lurker) is more than up to it.

  14. #14
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tatharil View Post
    Dunedain learning can easily replaced by Sign of Power duration legacy on the book. 1 min duration is more than enough.
    It isn't the duration I enjoy, so much as the speed. The duration is nice too, though... The shorter cooldown means I can use it to keep 12 people SI (takes ~36 seconds) and still have nearly a whole minute to do whatever *I* want to do. Also, you cannot forget that it also removes silencing effects, so having a shortened cooldown means your mini is now speechless for less time.


    As for 5 blues... I found it nice to be able to summon my pet in combat when I was trying 5 blues, and the bog lurker is an interesting pet. I know several LMs who love love love traiting lots of blue, and I'll confess to having done this when slated to heal 3-mans, but like others have said, 5 reds is more fun (for me) and 5 yellows for the capstone is pretty nice in raids. I typically run 5 yellows + DL + PAAI. I'll swap in Healer for DL if it's a power hungry fight with no stuns.
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  15. #15
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar View Post
    Blue is fine, makes LM soloing probably the easiest class to level in the game.
    What advantages can Blue offer me vs Red ( BE+CE+Stun ) + Eagle ?

    Even if there are a couple of useful blue traits , blue as a whole is not worth it .
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  16. #16
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    I can see both sides of the issue, here are my thoughts on the blue line.

    Yes, it does not provide as much DPS as Red, or Group utility as Yellow, what it does provide is solo survivability. Traited 5b, your pet (lurker, eagle, what have you) is on par with shard droppers, you have access to your full CC suite (no reduced blinding flash, my one dislike of MoNF) and upgraded healing to keep yourself and your pet up. So instead of having to pop Call to the Valar for roots, you can stun one or two, let your pet take several more, and take one on yourself. All the while keeping yourself and your pet up through flank heals and BoH.
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  17. #17
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    only point for a blue trait is in raid with 2 lore master where you need 2 cc .. debuff don't stack and you can help a bit on healing later on boss it's useless and you can come back to dps else can help a bit with flank and healing if needed but tbh i think the point is simply 2 lore master are useless in raid atm

  18. #18

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    imo the only genuine optimal use of the blue traitline is soloing tough content, particularly older group content.
    ^^^^
    I agree with this. And if you like solo challenges it is nice to have the 5 blue option.

    I had suggested awhile back that there should be a capstone pet that could truly tank. Then the deep blue LM/pet combo could serve the tanking role in 3-man or maybe some 6-man content.

    Honestly, the trait line makes sense to me: it buffs the pet and gives the LM better ability to keep the pet alive.

    The problem is, as it is now, the pets are way too weak, even buffed, for this style to be worthwhile, except in the very limited way mentioned above.

  19. #19
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guiwinner View Post
    tbh i think the point is simply 2 lore master are useless in raid atm
    Tish and Pish Sir. Tish and Pish. We invariably take 2 LMs to ToO:-)

    I'm sure its been said before, blue line is basically what LMs were before traitlines were invented and builds became so specific. They have a little bit of everything and emphasis how dependant on your pet you used to be, and remind you just how good it can be if you build for it, with pet food and legacies as appropriate. But its not quite there and does need some attention. If rather more of the pet based traits were clumped up and added into the BG summon legendary, in the way that the yellow capstone boosts everything under it, that would free up a couple of slots which would then allow more build flexibility. Main healer on 3 mans is quite possible, you need improved flanking and to swap the air lore target around plus be prepared to summon the spirit which is an excellent support pet and is regularly requested for some content because it takes a little load off the healers and simplifies power management in longer fights, or so I have found. Your experience may well differ.
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  20. #20
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Blue has it's niche for me. I usually go get it when faced with a boss impossible to break with my standard eagle solo setup. Makes the last boss in SCF and the Isengard trolls pretty easy.
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  21. #21

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Once I tried using the red traits, but didn't care for it. I really hate "kiting" mobs in any game. It probably is personal preference though. I prefer traiting blue, with a stronger pet and melee alongside them.

    I might try the red traits again some time.
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  22. #22
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil View Post
    But then, I find myself looking at utterly superfluous traits like Hardy Companion. Who on earth actually slots that in?
    Low level LM's who don't have any other traits yet.

  23. #23
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moejo View Post
    Low level LM's who don't have any other traits yet.
    I guess so.

  24. #24

    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    I must admit I don't understand the love for the yellow line. Aside from quick stuns, I've never been with a group where debuffs and CC were that important. The tradeoff of DPS from red line only seems to lessen its desirability. I see how it could be useful, but I've never been with a group that cared.
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  25. #25
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    Re: 5 Blue; What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispian View Post
    I must admit I don't understand the love for the yellow line. Aside from quick stuns, I've never been with a group where debuffs and CC were that important. The tradeoff of DPS from red line only seems to lessen its desirability. I see how it could be useful, but I've never been with a group that cared.
    The yellow trait line is certainly overkill for small group content (3 and 6 person) and is completely unnecessary in raid skirmishes or draigoch. But from my experience, regular raid content (ToO atm) is pretty much based around an assumption that boss mobs are debuffed with lore-master debuffs at all times. There's a number of fights where I'll notice if I've forgotten to refresh a debuff simply because the tank starts dying quicker than the healer can keep up. Full uptime for especially the three main lore debuffs goes a long way to keeping a group alive, particularly if you're new to the fight and the healer is having to heal up errors from people making mistakes. When your group is learning a fight, a yellow line lore-master is an invaluable asset.

    And as for cc, it's similarly unnecessary in most small group content but is highly important for getting through raid trash and some raid boss fights alive.
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