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  1. #76
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Didm a full ToO run last weekend but one with only one LM. That was a lot tougher than with 2, especially Fire and Frost and Saruman where one LM runs out of +debuff targets fatsre than he runs out of targets!
    Mithithil Ithryndi

  2. #77
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Nonsense. Stun dots are always useful in instances where CC is not! Power is always welcome too! I can think of endless things we can do that have nothing to do with CC. Debuffs? ETC

  3. #78

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    Just in case anyone was still interested in this silliness, these screenies pretty much sum it up:

    They're the first 2 saruman T2 kills and the first two F&F T2 challenge kills and based on time to kill you'd have to say these are possibly the hardest bosses that Turbine's ever released. Guess what class is represented in every group?
    multiple Mini's/guards/burgs...
    Yah yah we know they are OP... This thread is on Lm's.

  4. #79

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I wanted to chime in with a few numbers and observations on this troll thread. I hope this helps illustrate to aspiring LM's what you can bring to a raid.

    When I bring my Lore-master into a difficult raid (Tower of Orthanc being the latest) I set myself up in the Ancient Master line and seldom dps as it is not necessary. My job instead is to reduce the incoming damage on either the tanks and/or the champs off tanking the RAT, and keep additional mobs locked down that would otherwise overwhelm the tanks and healers. In add pulls I almost never dps outside of gust of wind, but that is only because I want the miss chance debuff.

    Assuming you are traited properly, then Frost-lore/Fire-lore plus Sign of Power See All Ends can significantly reduce the ability of a boss to knock out the tank. That combination adds -30% melee damage, -25% tactical damage, +50% induction time, -2400 critical chance (boss crits can produce overwhelming damage, especially an AoE attack on the group--F&F? Saruman? Lightning?). If you toss in wind lore and sign of power command, you've added +30% attack duration, reduced the b/p/e of the target (this makes your dps more effective), and added -60% ranged damage. If you toss in ancient craft you've just lowered his armor value by 2025. Throw in a gust of wind and you have an additional +7% miss chance.

    In total a lore master can add +17% miss chance, +30% attack duration, -30% melee damage, -25% tactical damage, +50% induction, -2400 crit chance, and a reduction in b/p/e (I can't recall the numbers).

    Let's put this in perspective. Let's pretend the tank is kiting the Saruman clones in phase 5. The LM has to put Wind-lore, gust of wind, sign of power see all ends and frost lore on the central Saruman. How much does that lower the damage of the central Saruman on phases 3-5? -25% damage is a lot of damage. -2400 crit chance reduces spike damage that the healers have to work in overdrive to heal. I am not sure if the central Saruman is affected by -60% ranged damage, but the +30% attack duration, +50% induction and +10% miss chance should reduce the damage by at least a quarter.

    Next, the LM tosses fire-lore, gust of wind and sign of power command on the clones. If he can debuff 8 of the Sarumans while kiting (trait deep lore of course), he has just reduced their damage by:

    +20% attack duration, +17% miss chance, -30% melee damage.

    What does that add up to? -30% melee means 8 Saruman are dealing the effective damage of 5.6. With +13% miss chance you are reducing the damage by roughly 8*.83*.7 = 4.65 Sarumans and the +20% duration means they are taking 20% as much time to attack, effectively reducing the damage further to about 4 Sarumans. My math may be a bit off, but it suffices to show that if the LM knows what he is doing, he can effectively reduce kiting 8 Sarumans to 4.

    Last weekend we had a raid with 1 LM. Whenever his frost-lore missed the central Saruman, multiple people in the raid would complain, rather loudly, at the increased damage. A well played Lore-master is invaluable in a raid. A poorly played lore-master is useless at best, a liability at worst.

    As a bonus, you can also drain power and restore the raid's dps and heals. If you are properly set up, and use Call to Valor wisely, a single lore-master should be able to keep a well geared and played raid filled with power.

    [EDIT] And if you are really good, in a difficult pull, with enough finesse and the correct book legacies, you can use call to valor to have two mobs perma mezzed within a few seconds of a fight, and keep a third mob held in position with herb lore for 1 minute (call to valor required) and possibly even longer if you can use cracked earth correctly.

    -Syn
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000001b3b74/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Synlas - r8 79 Loremaster ; Synomin - 76 Warden ; Synbad - r5 Defiler ; Gnat - r5 Reaver

  5. #80
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by illdowhatittakes View Post
    multiple Mini's/guards/burgs...
    Yah yah we know they are OP... This thread is on Lm's.
    uhh yeah, and every group of those groups have one LM in it. That's all I'm saying and it completely refutes the point the OP was making (that LMs are unnecessary).

    I'm not trying to make an argument that stacking 2+ LMs is a good idea - it's not, no one could seriously argue that - but my point has always been that when a group is facing a challenge that's on the edge of their progression then LM is an extremely valuable class. Ie. we're useful when it matters.

    Also most of the people replying to this thread are missing the main point. The OP and others aren't ignorant about the mechanics of the class or what effects our debuffs and skills have, it was an argument about whether all that stuff is actually needed or not. And I agree with the OP that for groups facerolling stuff that's easy for them, LMs aren't strictly necessary (no class is) and I actually think more LMs should recognise this and realise that when stuff's easy, you should play as a (sub-par) DPS class and not fiddle around doing fancy but unnecessary stuff. However, we certainly make hard content easier and sometimes make otherwise impossible (for that group) content possible. Which is all you can ask from a class.
    Lore-mastery - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.

  6. #81
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I got to agree with the OP, but not for the same reasons. I play the LM since Lotro launch in 2007. We went from a rocking pvping class, to the worse...

    1. CC is one of our greatest asset, it isnt usefull and efficient as it were before.
    2. Our greatest damaging skills are bound with induction and are not efficient when your targeted.
    3. We have no armor, not much morale, no block, parry, evade, nearly no heal, and no skills to improve survivability. We are the easiest target to get down. We do not run faster, so no flee either, stay and die.
    4. Pet is useless, since everything improved on the other classes and in the game pve, but the pet is still the same as it were when the game was 1 year old.
    5. Debuff is the only thing useful... in group.

    Ketzal LM on BW

  7. #82

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by synfin View Post
    When I bring my Lore-master into a difficult raid (Tower of Orthanc being the latest) I set myself up in the Ancient Master line and seldom dps as it is not necessary. My job instead is to reduce the incoming damage on either the tanks and/or the champs off tanking the RAT, and keep additional mobs locked down that would otherwise overwhelm the tanks and healers. In add pulls I almost never dps outside of gust of wind, but that is only because I want the miss chance debuff.
    I feel LMs should be able to dps in between their regular duties. Not doing so is a waste in my opinion (always bugs me when I watch videos of boss fights and see the LM standing around. I keep wondering why they're not tossing in some dps.) Yes debuffing, antistunning, and cc take priority, and if one is new to loremastering, sure, just concentrating on those aspects is good. But if one has been LMing for a while, I think you (a general you I mean of course) should start adding in dps. I mean, you do one round of debuffing, spot healing/power sharing or antistunning and then you have to wait for the cooldown. All that doesn't take one minute to complete. Throw some dots in there! Fights are so short nowdays that I'm using my dps book most of the time. Those burning ember dots stack and help. So do stuns from light of the rising dawn or test of will. This is through trash and the bosses. In T2 CM Shadow, I'm able to keep two mobs permamezzed (an uruk from phase 3 and another through phase 4) plus debuffs on the boss and off tank group and I still manage to get a bit of dps in. I'm expected to help with using Lotrd and ToW on defilers, plus dps them and the elhudan and of course dps the boss. Granted it took a fair bit of practice and I certainly have plenty of room to improve (use of warding circle and tar to help the group's dps), but it's good to challenge oneself I think. Using all these skills should definitely be doable on trash.

    Same for being in melee. Unless there's some serious aoe damage going on, get in there and wack stuff with your staff instead of standing around. LMs auto attacks are melee after all and we also have one of the best auto attacks in the game.

    Just because you trait AM doesn't mean that you shouldn't bother dpsing in my opinion. Every little bit helps.
    Last edited by Lothirieth; May 31 2012 at 01:20 PM.
    [url]http://wanderingthroughdigitalworlds.wordpress.com/[/url]

  8. #83

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Ops thread was The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    And da rst of yall cnt rad or smething cuz u tlk but useless or sumting.

  9. #84

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Lothirieth, this answer is really a philosophical one, covering what I feel the LM should do in a raid. I PUG alot and tend to find myself in situations where I am the only LM. With 2 LM's I may dps more, but it depends on the raid.

    I'll respond in two posts as Loth's statements beg two answers, though one indirectly and more at the OP. The first describing the LM and why I generally don't dps for hard end game instances (it is situational though), and the second more generically describing how I believe why fellowships are formed and ultimately why the OP (six pages back or so) is a fool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothirieth View Post
    I feel LMs should be able to dps in between their regular duties. Not doing so is a waste in my opinion (always bugs me when I watch videos of boss fights and see the LM standing around. I keep wondering why they're not tossing in some dps.)
    Yes, I used to do that too. But over the years, perhaps it is me just growing older, but all I care about is that the raid achieves its end goals. If the raid finishes 30 seconds early, that is nice. If it finishes 30 seconds later, that's ok too. All I care about is that the raid see's its end objective. That is my only goal when I enter a raid, regardless of what class I am playing, I play that class to assist that goal.

    I bring a lore-master to help control the pace of battle in difficult fights. The lore-master achieves this through power management, crowd control, enemy damage reduction (pets + debuffs), enemy incoming damage increase (pets + debuffs), and situational burst dps (ents, lightning mostly). By adding appreciable dps to a raid, I have found this hinders my ability to control the battle, chiefly through power management. When I use any damage skill, I lose power and morale. That is morale the minstrel has to heal. And that is power the minstrel could have used to keep the tank alive. Or power a well geared champ, hunter, rk or burg could have used for significantly greater dps. Furthermore, it puts me in a difficult spot for endurance fights, as though I have given a decent amount of dps at the start of the fight, now I am low on power, it is time to put my debuffs up again, and I have to take a long break to drain power. In other words, I just lost control of the battle. The raid can no longer rely upon me in the middle of the fight to help maintain control. At which point, why are you bringing a lore-master instead of a champion?

    Some people say the lore master is not a battery, some say that he isn't. I neither agree nor disagree. All I care about is the raid achieving its end goals. More often than not, I feel a lore-master is better served controlling the battle so the true dps classes can do what they're best at: dps.

    Furthermore, I tend to keep my ToW, LotRD, CE and such skills on reserve so I can use them for situational stuns if the battle runs out of control, or for certain adds in a boss fight (grims in F&F, root in Bukot, adds with Acid boss, CE on some of the larger pulls to hopefully buy a tank time if it goes bad). I prefer to keep those skills in reserve so if the situation turns south, or one of the situational adds needs to be taken care of, the main dps and raid can rely on me to continue controlling the battle. Whether it be situational dps, or additional crowd control, or reducing the enemy's damage and crit chance while making them more vulnerable, I position myself to assure I can always provide that for my raid. If I cannot be relied upon to control the battle, then one might as well bring another champ or hunter.

    Fundamentally, all I care about is that the raid achieves its end goals. I have found that adding much dps beyond the occasional BE DoT tends to detract from my other duties that raid expects me to fulfill. I PUG alot, and tend to be the only LM in the group, so perhaps that is part of the problem.

    -Syn
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000001b3b74/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Synlas - r8 79 Loremaster ; Synomin - 76 Warden ; Synbad - r5 Defiler ; Gnat - r5 Reaver

  10. #85

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    This whole post begs the question, why are certain classes brought to a raid?

    Briefly, for *hard end game* instances
    * One brings a lore-master to control the pace of battle
    * One brings a minstrel to heal damage
    * One brings a rune-keeper to heal damage / deal massive single target dps
    * One brings a captain to strengthen your fellowship and rez casualties back into the fight
    * One brings a guardian to hold agro on dangerous opponent(s)
    * One brings a warden to hold agro on dangerous opponent(s) with a specialty in single target tanking or kiting large assortments of mobs
    * One brings a hunter for single target dps, dps and...dps
    * One brings a burglar for dps, conjunction control and melee debuffs.
    * One brings a champion for off tanking and massive dps, both AoE and single target.

    If you stack guardians and champions with 2 minstrels for healing, that is like making an army based solely upon tanks. You have a hard punch, but you are brittle.

    If you bring a normal raid make up of 2 fellowships of 1 guardian/warden, 1 lm/burg, 1 minstrel/rk, 1 captain, 2 champion/hunter, then you have a robust raid. Your raid can handle a few deaths and pull through. Deaths can happen from random numbers chaining off a few crits. If you have an LM debuffing, especially sign of power see all ends, then this is less of a likelihood. If you have a captain, your morale is uniformly buffed and all your parry or crit or ICPR are increased as appropriate for the raid, further increasing your dps fellow's outgoing damage and reducing the likelihood of sudden damage spikes taking out members. Sure, you may only have 4 champions/hunters, but these 4 champions/hunters are now well supported by their formation. They are robust, very hard to kill, and can focus exclusively on massive dps.

    If you have a raid of 2 guardians, 2 minstrels and 8 champions, though that could work, you now have a formation with effectively less morale on the champions (no captains), more incoming damage (no lore-masters and to a lesser extent no burgs). Though you'll have fantastic dps, the situation can rapidly spiral out of control.

    It is called combined arms. It has worked very well for thousands of years of military history.

    -Syn

    P.S.: This touches upon the quote I have seen in several forum signatures, it went something like this: "No one understands what an Ancient Master Lore-master does until he is missing from the raid."
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000001b3b74/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Synlas - r8 79 Loremaster ; Synomin - 76 Warden ; Synbad - r5 Defiler ; Gnat - r5 Reaver

  11. #86
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    "The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!"

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahaahhahahaahahahaha
    hahahahahahahahahahahahha
    hahaha




    ha!

    (though i will NEVER forgive Turbine for their horrible audacityhit on our dazes+roots in ettens- THERE i feel not needed now!)


  12. #87
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    Jun 2011
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    525

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar View Post
    DPS-traited our damage isn't too shabby, but an LM doing that kind of damage is pretty useless for any of the LM's other roles and is wasting a slot a good damage dealer could use.
    You are also talking about your LM, right?
    I don't know what you are wearing and what/how you skilling for DPS, but as long as my LM has a 124% tactical damage and can make 1.100 - 1.600 DPS in Raids, it is a good DPS klass beside his other abilities.
    But here in the LM forum we allready had this diskussion and i'm really tired to argue with players (in general) who are not willig to find (grind for) the appropiate equip and do not want really learn the klass and then just mocking about DPS-LMs

    Regards
    CA
    Last edited by CaerArianrhod; Jun 03 2012 at 06:52 PM.

  13. #88
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod View Post
    You are also talking about your LM, right?
    I don't know what you are wearing and what/how you skilling for DPS, but as long as my LM has a 124% tactical damage and can make 1.100 - 1.600 DPS in Raids, it is a good DPS klass beside his other abilities.
    But here in the LM forum we allready had this diskussion and i'm really tired to argue with players (in general) who are not willig to find (grind for) the appropiate equip and do not want really learn the klass and then just mocking about DPS-LMs

    Regards
    CA
    Depends on context. In a 3-6man or easy raid (like T1 orthanc, draigoch, t2 lightning etc.), LM DPS is more than good enough. For situations where you really need max DPS (acid zergmode, ff challenge, shadow challenge etc.) it really isn't up to par with 'real' DPS classes (hunter/champ/burg/RK).
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  14. #89
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    Jun 2011
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    525

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    For situations where you really need max DPS (acid zergmode, ff challenge, shadow challenge etc.) it really isn't up to par with 'real' DPS classes (hunter/champ/burg/RK).
    There are so many possible situations, group combinations, instances etc. And all that is depending on the hunter/champ/burg/RK AND the LM, equip, mastering the class and so on. I know some hunters/champs/burgs to whom i may compare my LM's DPS and i will usually stay on the second place. But those hunters/champs/burgs are rarely widespread. I do not say, that (my) LM is the best, i'm sure this is not the case, but i really disagree with the myth that LMs would be not good for DPS.
    I will not post damage/DPS numbers, but i find funny if i hear my kinnies to say, that LMs has to be nerved, because they make to much damage or if friends ask me for my LM to join a group/raid as a DPS-class

    Regards
    CA

  15. #90

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I know we can deal a good amount of damage and I really respect good MoNF (good means damage + debuffing, healing, powersharing, SoP:R when necessary), but it's not my kind of fun.
    Every time I test MoNF for a few skirmishes I feel uncomfortable. I feel so.... weak. I feel a lot stronger as an AM. Staffstrike and eagle, that's all I need for damage. (+ BE-dots and wizardsfire)

  16. #91
    Whenever i see a post that offends a class in anyway, there's always at least 2 pages of people quoting, calling the OP a troll (even though he is in this case) and stating on personal experience. Whoever makes these posts generally is either a: NOOB at the class or was partied with a NOOB at the class... They make these posts because they want everyone to have the same opinion of the class.

  17. #92
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    Lms are useless ? hmmm ask the 5-10 creeps that get aoed and die if lms are useless (: that is all .
    ( R13 LM Savvii Arkenstone )( R13 Defiler Ghankstar Landroval )


    Those who are unaware they are walking in darkness will never seek the light - Bruce Lee

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod View Post
    There are so many possible situations, group combinations, instances etc. And all that is depending on the hunter/champ/burg/RK AND the LM, equip, mastering the class and so on. I know some hunters/champs/burgs to whom i may compare my LM's DPS and i will usually stay on the second place. But those hunters/champs/burgs are rarely widespread. I do not say, that (my) LM is the best, i'm sure this is not the case, but i really disagree with the myth that LMs would be not good for DPS.
    I will not post damage/DPS numbers, but i find funny if i hear my kinnies to say, that LMs has to be nerved, because they make to much damage or if friends ask me for my LM to join a group/raid as a DPS-class

    Regards
    CA
    Then you have a lack of real good dpsers in your kinship.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rNA52C7.jpg[/IMG]

    Waaha R10 Reaver, Tardleader R9 War-Leader, Wargtard R7 Warg
    Fellagund R5 Warden, Eldelcar R4 Lore-Master, Cadwolf R3 Captain, Eldelband R2 Minstrel

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by spockerized View Post
    I just don't see a use for them..
    And apparently neither do you :?
    You dont know anything about a lore master you frikin noob. we have a heal that can heal like 8k . In raids we can heal enemies, cure diseases, and debuff. Our knowledge when traited allows us to heal all fellowship members from dieseases. You also have no idea how much our debuffs help

  20. #95
    we can almost aoe better then champions ok, improved sticky gourd, gust of wind, cracked earth, ents go to war, amazing aoe attacks. Improve sticky gourd dealses MASSIVE DPS when combined with our sticky tar. A full dps build can be emtremley powerful, especially when paired with a raven. I spared a champion and my raven got 6 flanks. People underestimate the power of the raven. My raven healed almost 6k of my morale, I took out the champ with out even using WOC. Ravens flank a ton so you can heal a lot and sign of battle wizards fire also deals damage to then enemy. When traited it does 25 percent more damage as well

  21. #96
    lore masters are great

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly0120 View Post
    we can almost aoe better then champions ok, improved sticky gourd, gust of wind, cracked earth, ents go to war, amazing aoe attacks. Improve sticky gourd dealses MASSIVE DPS when combined with our sticky tar. A full dps build can be emtremley powerful, especially when paired with a raven. I spared a champion and my raven got 6 flanks. People underestimate the power of the raven. My raven healed almost 6k of my morale, I took out the champ with out even using WOC. Ravens flank a ton so you can heal a lot and sign of battle wizards fire also deals damage to then enemy. When traited it does 25 percent more damage as well
    LOL. That champ has to be very bad or you were very lucky. Just one word: CBR. Champs are probably the class that has more edge over Lore-Masters at spars.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rNA52C7.jpg[/IMG]

    Waaha R10 Reaver, Tardleader R9 War-Leader, Wargtard R7 Warg
    Fellagund R5 Warden, Eldelcar R4 Lore-Master, Cadwolf R3 Captain, Eldelband R2 Minstrel

  23. #98
    Join Date
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    You guys do realize that you are posting in a troll thread, right?
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=Cyan]"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."[/COLOR]
    ~ JRR Tolkien[/FONT][/SIZE]

  24. #99
    LM are probably the only class in the whole game doing unique jobs in raids (and in progression raid in particular) with the captain.

    Any other class has their role covered by another. Not the LM. The backslash of that: they dont stack well.

    I dont remember a raid (BG, OD or ToO) being possible before farm without a very good LM, multitasking.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0421500000004a797/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonide View Post
    LM are probably the only class in the whole game doing unique jobs in raids (and in progression raid in particular) with the captain.

    Any other class has their role covered by another. Not the LM. The backslash of that: they dont stack well.

    I dont remember a raid (BG, OD or ToO) being possible before farm without a very good LM, multitasking.
    Seems we found the problem of the opener
    Tennyson - level 44 Man Lore-master
    Finison - level 11 Elf Hunter

 

 
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