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  1. #26
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    I don't see how this is different from OD when we're talking about farming the raid.
    I changed my previous post... Range and aoe dps were welcomed in OD so it was kind of different.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    When raids are on farm, specific classes become less necessary and at the end of the day you can all just stack DPS for faster kills. That isn't any sort of revelation.
    What im arguing is that when you were learning the fights, you were doing them with 11.
    And again you prove my point unnintentially. Like many fights after it is mastered the lm is just the odd 12 and doesnt really add much... Doesnt that frustrate you?

    People seem kind of upset? Like in the back of there minds they know I'm right and just don't like the possiblity of there class being the bottom of the barrel.







    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    Seems like you're just trolling, but I'll bite anyway...
    ^.^
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    You really believe that the reason no-one has done them is because they have a LM? If that's the case, why don't you do it without a LM and show us the screens/video?
    Im bad remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    but that is irrelevant to a debuff giving -25% tactical damage.
    Seriously tho on saur put frostlore on it at phase 3 to phase 5 and keep track of the damage.. Its not actually being reduced by 25% Run it one week without it and keep tabs everytime he does the light attack and 1 week keep it on it and keep tabs.
    Last edited by spockerized; Apr 18 2012 at 08:19 PM.

  2. #27
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by spockerized View Post
    I changed my previous post... Range and aoe dps were welcomed in OD so it was kind of different.
    Well as you say (and it was even more true at 65) LM single target ranged DPS is useless so I'll assume you're talking about the one, single, fight with ranged AOE DPS - and please explain to me how a LM is better than a champ for Wound T2? Becuase if you're doing it properly, you're pulling the adds fast enough that champs will be doing much more DPS than loremasters - loremasters only out-DPS champs in burst.


    What im arguing is that when you were learning the fights, you were doing them with 11.
    And again you prove my point unnintentially. Like many fights after it is mastered the lm is just the odd 12 and doesnt really add much... Doesnt that frustrate you?
    no, it's not right. because EVERY class is replaceable once you've learned the fight and got it on farm. Everyone's useless, no one's a special snowflake. The ONLY time specific classes and abilities have genuine unique uses is when you're learning content. I don't know what more you want from a class really, we are vitally important during the only time that class makeup actually matters in this game. Raids in this game have never been so unforgiving that at farm level, once everyone's figured the mechanics out, you still need to come along with the absolutely perfect class makeup and all be super on top of your game. The only time class optimisation matters is while learning.
    Lore-mastery - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.

  3. #28
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    Well as you say (and it was even more true at 65) LM single target ranged DPS is useless so I'll assume you're talking about the one, single, fight with ranged AOE DPS - and please explain to me how a LM is better than a champ for Wound T2? Becuase if you're doing it properly, you're pulling the adds fast enough that champs will be doing much more DPS than loremasters - loremasters only out-DPS champs in burst.
    Champs sucked in OD
    Remember at 75 champs finally got a buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    no, it's not right. because EVERY class is replaceable once you've learned the fight and got it on farm.
    being Useful and relavant are two different things. Remember my initial points. Sure you can replace a dps with any other dps whatever. I'm arguing you offer the bare minimum.

    To me it sounds like you are in denial and have some invested interest in the class? Like im attacking your livelyhood or something. Cheer up buttercup.

  4. #29
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Psychobabble has pretty much said everything. I don't disagree that once you have stuff on farm mode LMs are replaceable... So what? Finishing your 2 hour raid 5 minutes earlier really isn't important. It also dpends on your strategy I suppose... We have the LM chain mez 2 mobs during shadow HM, you would need 2 burgs to do that & they loose lots of DPS for the ability to do so (they have to use mischief, i.e no bonus from QK stance and no FA).

    For the learning process, LMs are invaluable. If they were as useless as you suggest & an extra burg was more useful, people simply would not take them. That exact thing happened with Wardens... Guardians generally did the same job but better, so very few raid groups used Wardens.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  5. #30
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    We have the LM chain mez 2 mobs during shadow HM, you would need 2 burgs to do that & they loose lots of DPS for the ability to do so.
    You can use whatever strategy you want. I am still arguing they are the bottom of the barrel. Again some points I am claiming. Irrelavency of debuffs. Lack of DPs. Again just a 12th spot, but like you said the 12th spot can be anyone at this point it doesn't matter. I am arguing that it should and the lm isnt there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    That exact thing happened with Wardens... Guardians generally did the same job but better, so very few raid groups used Wardens.
    Ding ding ding now you are starting to understand.

  6. #31
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by spockerized View Post
    Champs sucked in OD
    Remember at 75 champs finally got a buff.
    no, champs were good in the one fight in OD that you are saying proved that LMs were usefull in OD. By your reasoning, LMs were about equal with champs for usefulness in OD.
    Lore-mastery - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.

  7. #32
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    no, champs were good in the one fight in OD that you are saying proved that LMs were usefull in OD. By your reasoning, LMs were about equal with champs for usefulness in OD.
    And that 1 fight you rather stack champs than Lms. And everyone knew champs were bad in OD.. Only proves my point that lms are the bottom of the barrel.
    Looks like you are trying to hangon to some last refuge. Finding any means necessary to maintain that peace of mind.
    Keep digging you might find something.

  8. #33

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    If I follow your argument, only one tank and two healers are essential. Why bother with the rest of the classes, because a good raid uses the bonuses of all classes.

    No reason to argue with someone who has made up his mind and is immune to reasoning.
    lvl 85 lm (main), lvl 85 champ, lvl 85 rk, lvl 85 hunter, lvl 85 minni

  9. #34
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Asterotg View Post
    If I follow your argument, only one tank and two healers are essential.
    That's just idiotic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asterotg View Post
    Why bother with the rest of the classes, because a good raid uses the bonuses of all classes.
    Again I'm arguing with the lm its not enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asterotg View Post
    No reason to argue with someone who has made up his mind and is immune to reasoning.
    I'm looking and so far all I got is that it makes the trash easier ~_~ see the problem I have here?

  10. #35
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I've never played a LM but I do have this one little thing to add. I've been in instances before where the LM being able to recharge a healing mini or RK or a tanking guardian who's out of power when the poop hits the fan has saved our butts before.

    The Order of The Silver Flame - A fun, mature, helpful and friendly kin. Come join us on Silverlode!

  11. #36
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    LM's are plenty useful. If there is a problem with the class it is that they don't stack well so bringing more than one is a liability. And because debuffs are what is most preferred in raids, and because sticky gourd creates lag issues, yellow line is pretty much you're only choice for raiding.

    It's hard to pass up debuffs when you're a raid leader. Even on farm nights the choice is ... do I want my healers to have to heal 20% more, for a marginal dps increase (probably 1000) and maybe risk a few unnecessary wipes?

    I'll admit ToO is a dps-fest compared to OD... but that is more a factor of poor raid design than a referendum on the lore-master.
    It's the same reason champs are fervour tanking some of the raid bosses and nobody's beaten two of the wings.
    105 (Captain, Champion, Guardian)

  12. #37
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by spockerized View Post
    I just don't see a use for them..
    Your loss.

  13. #38

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    I'll admit ToO is a dps-fest compared to OD... but that is more a factor of poor raid design than a referendum on the lore-master.
    It's the same reason champs are fervour tanking some of the raid bosses and nobody's beaten two of the wings.
    Definately. Same with adaption. I actually preferred the adaption mechanic in OD compared to ToO.

  14. #39
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    While I'm glad to see new and lively discussion on the LM forums, the "Are Loremasters Useful" arguement? Seriously?! We've done this.

    Maybe the OP was a) frustrated about the new update play or maybe b) he is just a fail troll (in case of b, stop feeding it) - but please, let's just play the game, have fun and get over ourselves and our respective classes.

    I'll tell you what's useless - having this tired old debate. . .again.
    .
    Mamakas - L80 Minstrel(Gladden), Izora - L55 Guardian(Riddermark)

  15. #40
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    Thumbs up Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marphlets View Post
    I'll tell you what's useless - having this tired old debate. . .again.
    QFT indeed
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0e21500000003ec1c/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  16. #41
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I enjoy playing my LM, everyone in the groups (including myself) feel that it's useful, and have no problems finding a group for it. Is there really anything else that matters?
    [CENTER][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/tindragon/Base.png[/IMG]
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  17. #42
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    well the lore master is useless in ettens :P at last a unstun pots is better :P don't take half renow !!

  18. #43
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    The guy who made this thread is as funny as thoughs who are falling for his trolling tactics


    Though if im wrong and he really thinks that about a Lm then he needs to either learn his classes or find a new game that is easy to understand



    P.S. im leaning torwards another game for him
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  19. #44
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    lol

    456789
    Landroval!
    Fellrotten - Rank 12 Battlemaster LM - Zero Stars. Survivor of the Barrow-Downs. Ivar's Champion. [url=https://www.lotro.com/en/forums/showthread.php?370017-Skirmish-LT-meta-deed-mount/]Embarassing Completionist[/url]
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  20. #45

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guiwinner View Post
    well the lore master is useless in ettens :P at last a unstun pots is better :P don't take half renow !!
    If you're an epic fail LM then they are useless. Pro LMs are amazing. Spiders have +30% attack/induction duration debuff (wound). Wargs have +25% induction debuff (disease). That allows minis/RKs to keep healing like a beast keeping those off. Plus curing flies is nice cuz they are a pretty massive drain on groups now. LMs can cure silences -- something RKs and minstrels absolutely hate. They have SoP:R which prevents knockdowns, mezzes, stuns and allows people being focused to keep kiting or healers to keep healing cuz they won't be CC'd. On top of all that they have epic debuffing. An LM is what determines whether my group of 4 can handle 6 creeps or 12 creeps.

  21. #46

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I realize that this is a troll thread but I can't help but feel we are the worst class for most the content in the game. The content that we are needed in I feel like we are a necessary evil and once we do our cc/debuff we become a strain on the raid not pulling out weight. The problem is that content is made so that a debuffing class is not completely necessary. If debuffing was necessary every time you miss or resist a debuff it would cause a wipe. We do not debuff hard enough and mobs don't hit hard enough for us to be necessary. As a result burgs can largely do our role and add more dps than us. I only see us being more useless in the future as more mobs gain cc immunity and content is made more for the tank/dps/heal triad and everything really just comes down to dps races.

    I feel that our class as a whole needs to be updated. We could use a new type of debuff or possibly a new type of game mechanic that makes LMs more needed (like corruptions) I also think content needs to be designed were mass debuffing and crowd control are more important. But I do not see this happening, instead I see more dps races and strait forward tank aand spank fights in the future.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000408fbc/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  22. #47

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Ancient Craft + Crit buff thingy(5 Draigoch?) + Shatter-Arms + Tar = pretty neato.
    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0220400000008bdab/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  23. #48
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Im not a LM myself, got a lvl 32 one which im about to start leveling soon.
    From what Ive seen a LM is perhaps the most handy class in the whole game. Can share power, can heal, can debuff, daze, you name it. They can give you something better than the r15 brand could ever dream off. Their single target may not be that high, but their AOE makes up for that + additional dots... LMs are awesome + the fluffy and cute pets, /pat.
    "I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the gate of Erebor, until the darkness fell."
    http://gladdenhistory.wikispaces.com/

  24. #49

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I agree that with not that no body except few bad player have power issue, LM support utility have faded.
    Smae can be said for the Banner of Victory... who would need it, now?

    Turbine made all class to much self sufficient and if they keep that way it just gonna be a kid_candy dps contest game like wow have become; I fear that and would be really disappointed cause I really enjoyed that game that game.

    as for the debuff, well some fight mobs just reapply the debuff every 3 seconds so the point of removing it just fall off, otherwise the player just end up decursing on full time and do nothing else, I liked the Disease of GB that caused such a radical stats drop for the 20 lvl bracket that It was useful to be removed and significant, without making it vital.

  25. #50
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marphlets View Post
    I'll tell you what's useless - having this tired old debate. . .again.
    agreed. as already stated, obvious troll is obvious and the reaction he got from this thread is exactly what he was looking for.

    i agree with both arkenhelm's and psychobabble's comments completely. if someone says what the troll has said about LM, they just don't understand the dynamics or mechanics of the class. i rolled an LM just for ####es and giggles, but once i decided to level him, i learned the class and what it offers. in certain aspects, i'm still learning some of the finer nuances, but i've also never been denied joining fellowships simply because i'm an LM.

    having a 75 champ, a 75 hunter, and a soon-to-be 75 captain, i can say that i really enjoy playing my LM just as much as i enjoy playing the other classes.
    The Lover®: So suave. So cool. So debonair. So smooth.

    This is CYAN. This is TEAL. Know the difference.

 

 
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