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  1. #1
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    The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Let's look at this from the most logical point. A squishy class that really only makes the job of a healer harder when faced with burst damage. The actual damage done by a Lm is laughable and the pets hit for what 64? What is always the first class to die... The LM. Look at these points.

    1. The Bosses that anyone does in ToO are zerg bosses no need for CC.
    2. Because how short the bosses are the debuffs actually help mitigate what damage.
    3. Since most of the damage that happens in these fights is melee seems logical to stack burgs.. More debuffs+outgoing damage.
    4. At this point everyone should have enough ICPR or class skills to sustain dps plus the fights are short again. You bring a lm just for Power looks like a fail raid.
    5. If you bring a class for 1 skill say SI looks like the raid is fail?

    Sorry to burst your bubble but someone had to say it.

  2. #2
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    So what you are saying is you don't like LM's?
    So what?

  3. #3
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I just don't see a use for them..
    And apparently neither do you :?

  4. #4
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    You must have some fail LMs on your server. Are you are one?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c2140100000ab016/signature.png]Voracious[/charsig]

  5. #5
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    What makes them good? 0 for 2 so far :?

  6. #6

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    I kinda like Frost Lore. Especially in Orthanc.

    Fire Lore is great for Trash pulls. I know I like the 8 target de-buffs when I'm tanking on Warden.

    Keeping 2 trolls stunned by 1 LM leaves burgs to dps more or stun only on resist.

    -Crit chance is, once again, very much appreciated by Tanks.

    BPE AoE debuffs are appreciated by Champs for sure.

    I'm sure i could find 2-3 more reasons if i tried but for me that is already enough to bring at least 1 LM when raiding.
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  7. #7
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    LMs have an (almost) equivalent of RW + CD in AC + SaE (with draigoch set, which I have macroed). If you have RKs (circle) or hunters using fire oil (raven/tar), I'm pretty sure we surpass a burg in terms of +inc damage debuffs. Then you have all the defensive debuffs, raven tac mit buff, SI, off heals (I intend to get 3 pcs of the moors set so I can have BoH hot again), power share, better CC, ranged corruption removal... Of course you loose the ST damage of the burg, but for anything hard it is clearly worth it. I don't understand the survivability problems... For a raiding LM will is not particularly important, so you are free to focus more on finesse/morale/tactical mit. Burgs that want to do good DPS can't do the same.

    So what if you can do fights you have on farm without a LM? You can also do them without burgs. LMs don't stack at all, so more than 1 is a waste of a spot, but that has always been the case.

    Maybe you are just trolling (nice avatar), but there are many people who seem to think this is true. Only the other day in global there were people arguing that you shouldn't bother with LMs for T2 Orthanc and just take another burg instead.
    Last edited by Tarenius; Apr 18 2012 at 09:33 AM.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  8. #8
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Haha...gotta love people who cant play/dont know how the class works and directly reach the conclusion that the class is useless instead of coming here in humility and asking for help in understanding

    So lets break it down -

    Quote Originally Posted by spockerized View Post
    Let's look at this from the most logical point. A squishy class that really only makes the job of a healer harder when faced with burst damage. The actual damage done by a Lm is laughable and the pets hit for what 64? What is always the first class to die... The LM. Look at these points.
    Actual damage done by a loremaster is far better than you know of.....I can outdo most Hunters, Champs and Rks in burst damage.....let alone the other classes.... A LM is not squishy if played even above average.....even in the face of burst damage....A pet is not supposed to blow something up for you....do understand pets and their skills and uses before coming to criticize them......unless played by a total noob, the LM should NEVER be the first class to die. Period. If you are having these things happening, youre doing something wrong.... Big time....

    1. The Bosses that anyone does in ToO are zerg bosses no need for CC.
    Have you been inside ToO?....you couldve used much better examples to show that CC is not needed....but ToO is the most cc-demanding of all instances....Do try it....you'll be surprised.....

    2. Because how short the bosses are the debuffs actually help mitigate what damage.
    I dont know what you mean by short, but do try to fight Saruman or ToO t2 (or even t1 for that matter) and many other instance bosses without debuffs.....you'll be surprised at how fail and inefficient a dps race really is....

    3. Since most of the damage that happens in these fights is melee seems logical to stack burgs.. More debuffs+outgoing damage.
    I dont know what you mean here either.....we have melee/ranged/tactical debuffs far stronger than burgs....not to mention, we have other debuffs...crit chance, avoidances, attack duration, etc.....And all our skills are ranged, so we dont need to risk going into the boss's AoE range to pull em off unlike Burgs....

    4. At this point everyone should have enough ICPR or class skills to sustain dps plus the fights are short again. You bring a lm just for Power looks like a fail raid.
    It is one of the LM's many many jobs (read LM basics for more info on said jobs)....and many fights are longer than many dps races....if you think every class has an equal amount of ICPR at lvl 75 and it should be awesome, youre sadly mistaken....power batteries are needed and running out of power is not fail....its natural....

    5. If you bring a class for 1 skill say SI looks like the raid is fail?
    Again, one of the many roles....I'll point out to reading LM basics for more info on said roles

    Sorry to burst your bubble but someone had to say it.
    Sorry to burst -your- bubble, but you need to play a class and learn it, to know anything about it....even for successful trolling if its an attempt at that.....this is too bad even for a troll post....sorry mate....you need a good informed base to even bash something successfully....not everyone can do that....

    I have never been refused to a fellowship and am invited to planned raids beforehand so that I may make time....a well played LM is a huge asset to any group/raid.....those who know what theyre doing know the importance of an LM in a group......and those who do not understand that only deprive themselves of a big advantage.....
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0e21500000003ec1c/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  9. #9

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Just to add to the valid points made above:

    -Most, if not all damage you take in ToO is tacical. Tactical mitigation has a cap, and frost-lore is the single most helpful debuff in there. Reduces outgoing tactical boss damage by 25% What else would you want?

    -Also, I still find myself sharing power. Particularly in Saruman Phase 5, because you are prone to spikes that cost a lot of power to outheal, and deaths which need to be powered up again. You barely have to wait between phases.

    Yes, for CC you could replace a LM with another burg AND have a hunter root AND a minstrel fear.. But then you`re wasting 3 classes` valuable time.

    There`s plenty of other reasons you can take a LM to ToO but since you`re obviously leading raids like a pro there I won`t have to tell you any tactics.

  10. #10
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    -Most, if not all damage you take in ToO is tacical. Tactical mitigation has a cap, and frost-lore is the single most helpful debuff in there. Reduces outgoing tactical boss damage by 25% What else would you want?

    Actually, it isn't. Damage type (tactical/physical) =/= Damage source (melee/ranged/tactical). In the Saruman fight basically all of the dangerous damage is tactical, but lightning/f&f are pretty equally spread (melee/tactical lighting, all 3 f&f) and acid/shadow are almost entirely melee.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  11. #11
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    There is but one master of the ring and he does not share power. I guess Sauron wasn't a LM. On topic, while the LM might not be needed for power as much any more, I still couldn't say they were useless. The debuffs speed up any encounter, or make it easier on healers, as does cc. They can even off-tank an add or 2 with a bear. What more could you ask for?

  12. #12

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    Actually, it isn't. Damage type (tactical/physical) =/= Damage source (melee/ranged/tactical). In the Saruman fight basically all of the dangerous damage is tactical, but lightning/f&f are pretty equally spread (melee/tactical lighting, all 3 f&f) and acid/shadow are almost entirely melee.[/COLOR]
    Yes, ofcourse! *blush* Serves me right for typing without thinking!
    I was going on about the big boss upstairs, but shouldn`t have put `most/all` without mentioning.
    Still the point kind of stands, tactical damage is dangerous, particularly if it spikes/crits. And the debuff files off a chunk.

  13. #13
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by spockerized View Post
    A squishy class that really only makes the job of a healer harder when faced with burst damage.... What is always the first class to die... The LM. .
    I think the others have made good points.

    Regarding the quoted text, this isn't true from my experience. In our group, the LM is usually among the last 3 people to die. Perhaps your LMs would benefit from new positioning, stacking morale, and retraiting some virtues. In fact, there are a few parts where we actually do a little LM-tanking (e.g. the LM catches the boulders in FnF T2). I don't want to oversell this last point, but do want to note out that we can be fairly sturdy.

    Anyway, an argument can be made that most classes can have their jobs done better by other classes, and this argument keeps changing with updates (e.g. wardens vs. guards; champs vs. hunters; minis vs RKs). One can min-max their groups as much as possible, but for me it's more about having good people rather than perfect classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    So what if you can do fights you have on farm without a LM? You can also do them without burgs.
    Tarneius makes a good point about things on farm. Once you get the mechanics down, nearly all classes are replaceable. But I challenge you to try to *learn* a new raid without a LM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c214000000051de2/signature.png]Naethromraw[/charsig]

  14. #14

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    What a LM can offer to a group (in the current raid situation) is majorly underpowered compared to what it was say at level 60 or 65. The OP's concerns have been my concerns for a while despite raiding with my LM whole of orthanc in a solid basis. No, the LM being the first to die is not the problem (though Fire Frost t2 might disagree) but the debuffs are more trivial than ever and the dps additions to the group are negligible compared to burgs.

  15. #15

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by spockerized View Post
    Let's look at this from the most logical point. A squishy class that really only makes the job of a healer harder when faced with burst damage.
    If us reducing a mobs damage output, hit chance, supporting with additional heals (Beacon of Hope, Improved Flanking, Limfran etc.), removing wounds and reducing damage on static targets through stuns makes a healer's job harder, then I'm not sure healing is what it used to be any more.

    The actual damage done by a Lm is laughable and the pets hit for what 64?
    The damage an LM can churn out is surprisingly high. Burning Embers, a Lore Master's cookie cutter attack at range, on my LM (which is by no means fully kitted out) hits for 500-850 without me being set up for DPS. And as far as I've seen some of the LMs here, that's still quite low. That's on a skill with a 3 second cool down and 30 metre range. And that's in the bottom half of our damaging skills! And not to forget, we have the highest auto-attack damage in the game.

    As for our pets, if their sole purpose was to deal damage, we wouldn't have so many different ones. Eagles buff ICPR, offer us a free revive and can even fear mobs. The Bog Lurker is capable of starting fellowship manoeuvres and flanks frequently enough for us to churn out some noticeable healing - especially when Air Lore is on a tank. The raven offers tactical mitigation and reduces mobs fire resistance, the Lynx can dish out significantly more DPS than 64 per hit (often scoring crits of 1500+), a bear which can pull a mob completely off anyone else for 10 seconds and increase incoming damage for everyone and a Sabre Tooth cat which can hit everything all the time, start fellowship manoeuvres and debuff frost mitigations for a full group.

    And then there's the Limfran, which may not do damage, but it can help out with healing. So yes, pets may not dish out immense amounts of damage, but it's a short sighted view to assume that is the sole purpose of a pet. Captains don't use heralds exclusively for the damage they deal.

    What is always the first class to die... The LM.
    I find it's always RKs and hunters that go down first. And if anything, I'm amongst the last to die. I'm not high enough up the agro pile and any LM stupid enough to get in Melee range of an AoE mob doing a lot of damage is hardly room for a comparison. That's a player fault, not a class fault.

    1. The Bosses that anyone does in ToO are zerg bosses no need for CC.
    Not every fight in every raid is a boss fight. And not everything a LM does is CC based. Take a look at Frost/Fire wing. Those diseases come thick and fast and one slight slip up means everyone is stunned. A LM can prevent both the disease and the stun. Couple that with CCing the mobs doing it in the first place, debuffing their inductions and damage output, I'd say that's a million miles from 'not useful'.

    2. Because how short the bosses are the debuffs actually help mitigate what damage.
    Not every fight is a boss fight. See above.

    Also, LMs do a little more than just debuff.

    3. Since most of the damage that happens in these fights is melee seems logical to stack burgs.. More debuffs+outgoing damage.
    LMs have more debuffs than burgs and the two classes have totally different types of debuffs to boot. And let's not forget, LMs debuffs are AoE without needing traits. And although a burg can trait theirs to hit more than one target, and LM can go much higher. And besides, stack burgs if you wish, but you only need one LM to put in every debuff they have on multiple targets.

    The damage output between the two classes isn't that different. A burg is quicker, an LM does more burst damage. The DPS would be marginal and certainly not a big enough gap to make a difference with regards to everything else each class can do.

    4. At this point everyone should have enough ICPR or class skills to sustain dps plus the fights are short again. You bring a lm just for Power looks like a fail raid.
    In a way, true. If you bring an LM exclusively for power, then that would stink of a raid oblivious to what an LM can do. My LM has close to 2k ICPR unbuffed and I doubt anyone complains when I'm sharing out the blue stuff. And since I can pretty much fully function on an empty blue bar, the group/raid tends to be a little more at ease knowing my blue bar is their blue bar.

    5. If you bring a class for 1 skill say SI looks like the raid is fail?
    Same could be said for any class. This isn't a class limitation, it's a limitation of whoever is pulling the raid/group together.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but someone had to say it.
    So if this is the case, does that mean people who simply enjoy playing the class should stop playing it? LM has rapidly overtaken my champ as the class I play the most and that's simply because of how much they can do. An LM isn't an obvious game changer like a tank or healer. Or even a DPS class. But one thing it will do is make a fight much easier in all the little places. A good LM won't look to get noticed for all the work they do, they'll just do it.

    Simple reality is, a LM is just as useful as it's always been. But it's also just as much a mystery to non-LMs as it's always been too.

  16. #16

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Im gonna have to disagree with the OP. As pretty much the only raid-level Lore-Master in my kinship (a few rarely played alts surface from time to time) I can say that the Lore-Master is a welcome addition to a raid. My alt is a Burglar and having run 3/5 ToO fights on both toons, most of the time while on my Burglar I wish I was on my Lm.

    For instance; a resisted mez on a burglar, that means you have to either hit Confound (15s then mez), then Trick+Startling Twist (8s stun), and even then there is time for the mob to move before the confound mez kicks in (pending if a burg has the countdown legacy. I dont know the burglar community well enough to know if that legacy is often used).

    Same situation on a LM, Herb-lore (30s root for 3-8 mobs)/Cracked Earth (30s root after 5s if traited yellow, it's ToO good chance your traited yellow)/Stun skills (we've got a bunch)

    The last lightning wing run that I was apart of on my LM, both of the trolls was broken out of their mez, so I told the tanks to not build any threat on the trolls, Herb-lore, mez one, 15s later mez the other, and as one mez would end I would stun them, and remez. Since the trolls were targeting me, when the mez would end the troll would have to run a ways towards me. I juggled the trolls long enough for the rest of the group to kill everything else and ultimately saved the run from a wipe. Now Im not all that trained with my Burglar, but I don't figure I could do such a feat with that class. (I am going to try now that i've mentioned it though)

    Maybe an LM has finished all of ToO (close but not there yet myself), the CC set of armor gives +5s to Blinding flash. that makes such a juggling act even easier because you dont have to stun in between any more. Keep in mind, this is only 1 side of a very diverse skill set class, if u calculate in all the debuffs, off-heals, and damage then I firmly believe that LM's are more than useful!

  17. #17

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    OP is definitely not trolling, so let's keep trying to argue against his points
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  18. #18
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by DaviLOTR View Post
    OP is definitely not trolling, so let's keep trying to argue against his points
    Can we please have the reason for such definitive judgement of the intention of the OP's post on your behalf?

    In my opinion,

    He -may- not be trolling, but as a forum poster, if I am having problems understanding the utility of a class/game mechanic and if I am finding it below the expectations, a more positive approach in my opinion is asking veteran players of that class/game about why am I finding this so and how am I doing it wrong and how best to improve the state of said class in a group....and to find out how those players, who CAN do it better, manage to do so....

    If I am feeling underwhelmed, I would rather ask for advice than bash the issue/class.....hence, I find the OP's post more in the lines of a troll than that of a mature meaningful discussion.....
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  19. #19
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by silverblade5445 View Post
    a more positive approach in my opinion is asking veteran players
    who is more veteran than me?

  20. #20
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    While I'm of the opinion that LMs still have plenty of utility to offer in raids , I'll have to admit that I feel that while the game mechanics evolved , LMs stayed in their own private zone , same old tactics , same old skills , nothing new to offer .

    Mainly the reason why I no longer enjoy pve as much as I used to .
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  21. #21

    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Yeah screw LMs because burgs could just hips to exploit a certain boss in OD and then go put a fraps of the fight online while claiming server (maybe world?) first using exploit method. Totally pro!

    Anyways OP is a fail troll and likes to pay2win in the Moors. Enough said.

  22. #22
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    so your kinship has its ToO loot farm treadmill going (i'm guessing one-tank zerg on lightning t2c, one-phase zerg on acid t2c and burg-zerg on shadow t2c, one-boss zerg on F&F T2 and dps faceroll T1 sauraman) and you don't see the need to bring a non-DPS support class. That's not surprising. But if you're worried about completely optimising zerg loot farm runs, you're kinda missing the point.

    Your statement re why people haven't been able to beat sauraman/F&F T2c is completely ridiculous, those are fights with significant amount of tactical damage and in the case of sauraman P5, masses of adds, where LM debuffs are really useful.

    And the LM remains a really valuable class for kinships which don't have stuff completely on farm and who are learning their way through content. They're by far the best class for cc duty on trash pulls and fire lore/SAE gives more damage mit than a single burg. Plus, just because you can single tank lightning with a stun-immune warden (which i'm guessing is what you do), doens't mean that that's going to be an option for every kin. and if your kinship then turns around after it's learned the content and says "no LMs are coming to our farm runs because we can do them 25sec faster with an extra burg" then it's not the LM that's fail in that situation....
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  23. #23
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    so your kinship has its ToO loot farm treadmill going (i'm guessing one-tank zerg on lightning t2c, one-phase zerg on acid t2c and burg-zerg on shadow t2c, one-boss zerg on F&F T2 and dps faceroll T1 sauraman) and you don't see the need to bring a non-DPS support class. .
    Interesting point... ToO sucks point noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    Your statement re why people haven't been able to beat sauraman/F&F T2c is completely ridiculous, those are fights with significant amount of tactical damage and in the case of sauraman P5, masses of adds, where LM debuffs are really useful.
    If its so useful how come no one has done it?
    Also you cant mitigate light damage which is the attacks saur does.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11...tros-update-5/

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    And the LM remains a really valuable class for kinships which don't have stuff completely on farm and who are learning their way through content.
    That's not what im talking about or making fun of people taking whatever class makeup they decide to run with. If anything I am doing those who are just about to figure it out a favor to save them the frustration and heartache of how simple the raid really is. Even in the past zerging OD AOE and range dps was good?
    Last edited by spockerized; Apr 18 2012 at 08:08 PM.

  24. #24
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by spockerized View Post
    Interesting point... ToO sucks point noted.
    I don't see how this is different from OD when we're talking about farming the raid. There's no reason to take a LM to disease other than damage mitigation which is unnecessary outside of learning the fight, a champ is better in wound, fear is do-able either with burg/hips or just overhealing, poison was 6-manned and certainly doens't need a LM, Ivar is quite possibly the exception to the rule, I'm not sure that's doable without frost lore (but why is taking a LM for one skill for one fight any less legitimate than taking it for stun immunity? how is that any less gimmicky?), and plenty of groups did gorth without a cc strategy; although, I'll concede that the wight phase would probably get pretty messy without a LM.

    When raids are on farm, specific classes become less necessary and at the end of the day you can all just stack DPS for faster kills. That isn't any sort of revelation.


    If its so useful how come no one has done it?
    Because the fights are broken and overtuned and getting nerfed. Taking one of the more useful classes out of the existing group makeups isn't going to make them any less broken. I'm sure you've read the F&F is impossible thread - that german kinship certainly doesn't see LMs as unnecessary to the strategy and they've tried a lot of different things with the fight.

    That's not what im talking about or making fun of people taking whatever class makeup they decide to run with.
    Making points just looking for good refutations.
    You're missing the point. No one is saying that LMs are the best class to zerg dps farm content with. But who cares? if you're zerg dps farming it, class makeup is irrelevant anyway so why worry about which class makeup is totally optimal? The class has a very important role during learning content and giving groups a margin for error.
    [url=http://docholidaymmo.com/tag/lore-mastery/]Lore-mastery[/url] - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.

  25. #25
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    Re: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

    Seems like you're just trolling, but I'll bite anyway...

    If its so useful how come no one has done it?
    Also you cant mitigate light damage which is the attacks saur does.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11...tros-update-5/
    You really believe that the reason no-one has done them is because they have a LM? If that's the case, why don't you do it without a LM and show us the screens/video?

    As I already explained to somebody else, damage type =/= damage source. I haven't tested whether you can mitigate light damage (it doesn't say so on the tactical mit tooltip, but similarly it doesn't say you can mitigate beleriand/westernesse/AD on the physical mit tooltip when in fact you can), but that is irrelevant to a debuff giving -25% tactical damage.
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