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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Epic warden survival in PVP

    I was running in the moors recently and i come across a band of creeps. being a hunter i stealth and wait for them to pass by. as i wait a warden jumps this 5-7 creep (most in their mid-high ranks) group with around 2 wargs, 2 BAs, a high ranking WL, and 1-3 spiders. Im assuming he is going to be annihilated instantly, even with what appeared to be a full audacity set and (by his morale) good gear.

    didnt happen

    he was spamming heal gambits and morale leaches (both of them i think) on those 5-7.

    from when i started counting a couple of seconds later, he stood there for 2 min and 30 something seconds. and had killed a warg, a lowbie reaver that joined in, and a green BA.


    i was dumfounded.

    im just wondering if this was a warden who had a load of skill or is this status quo? because a session play ranger could not have stood that long in that fight. (yes, i know, the ranger has tissue paper armour)

    it was seriously awesome to watch.

    (whimpers back with dreams of grandeur to Hunter forum)

  2. #2

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    I have heard this from others too where the warden did not even lose morale while fighting a group of creeps solo. I personally did not watch this but i know I can run into an instance with my 75 warden and take on 15 on level Brigands and never having to worry about dropping my morale. Same with the 145k trees in the great river i can keep full moral and power the entire time which drops a little when the tree hits you with DoT but not that much if i keep my heals stacked. I run the 3-man isen instances all the time with no healer except for the one with that big giant. Mostly t1. and my gear is not all the top of the line yet. So yes the warden has great survivability, whether its a single mob 145k tree or a large group of brigands. Wardens can take a beating.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000024b89b/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [color=blue][I]Nasbuira[/I][/color] 85 Warden
    [color=blue][I]Helnuir[/I][/color] 81 Hunter

  3. #3

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    From your description above average skills and gear in PVP. My experience is 2 or less creeps no problem they will probably run before long. 3 to 5 is a stalemate they will come back from the res circle before you can kill them all. More then that and I think of running. It also depends on the creep skill and excactly what you are fighting, i have more trouble if they are all range or are good at hitting and running. What a warden wants is an enemy who will sit there and try to take it we are completly self sufficiant including power regen now and if they can be induced to group around you leeches + heals will keep us at full health. It's even better if you have the banner or relic since they can't even stun you.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c0000000e3830/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    [url]http://schrodwarden.blogspot.ca/[/url]

  4. #4

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Since Update 6 for PvP I have tried many things to defeat my Warden friend in a spar and have not been able to beat his Avoidances and heal dots. If he was not getting full avoidances then he was getting partials, and that was with me having over 19% Finesse, and in another test 22% Finesse. Part of my issue was his stun immunity and something with Wardens where after they get critted on they gain temporary immunity to crits.

    In PvMP my Warden friend, a cappy, a Champ and myself as an Overpower Guard one night decided to flip the map blue and would do so by having our Warden run from the entrance of the keep all the way to the Tyrant room and aggro everything from start to finish including the Tyrant and tank it all at once. He would have so many targets on him that he became invisible. And that was with Rank 1 Audacity, imagine rank 7... In all of the keeps we managed to kill the Tyrant, and in all the keeps but TR we also managed to flip the flag.

    At one point we decided to capture a relic and give it to him and fight some creepies. It took at least 12-15 creeps to take him down. The three of us went splat, the Warden stayed up for what felt like forever.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    526

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    The warden's "achilles' heel" is mitigation, and Audacity fixes that a bit. So yeah, a blue-traited, tank-geared warden is ridiculously impossible to kill. On the other hand, it took that awesome warden at least 2 and a half minutes to kill just one warg, a lowbie reaver and a green BA.

    Red and yellow wardens are more common since Moors fights can be really quick so you need more damage, but they are also much easier to kill.

  6. #6

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    any crep that dies to a warden deserves it a shield traited warden dps is silly low..i sparred a warden r10ish on my warg in flayer he couldnt hurt me.. so yea they can take a beating but any creep could just run him off without fear..

  7. #7

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by haroldhnicholos View Post
    any crep that dies to a warden deserves it a shield traited warden dps is silly low..i sparred a warden r10ish on my warg in flayer he couldnt hurt me.. so yea they can take a beating but any creep could just run him off without fear..
    The more outnumbered you are the more greedy creeps tend to get. I've been in fights on my OP-Guard where I'm outnumbered 1v4, 1v5 and 1v6... so like absolutely I'll die but if I focus on one creep until he runs away and then focus on another creep, usually the creep that ran away will come back even with low morale and I can sometimes kill him, and if I'm really lucky I'll even manage to kill another creep. But yeah, if the creeps are any good then there is no reason that I should get a single kill out of that.

  8. #8

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    basicly its impossible to kill a shield warden on 1v1 by a creep who is not a defiler.
    and that mid rank creeps are just thrash. i couldnt try 124124vs1 cuz they always run away after 1 or 2 deaths. sadly...
    and i always run with 5blue2yellow. and whats the point runing without 5 blues in moors ? is there a burglar runing with mischief traits? or hunter with yellow line ? yellwo and red line of warden is for pve. not pvp.
    a warden without shield traits is so bad squishy.
    but im going to try some yellow-red hybrids after update. cuz builders going to be 40 meter ranged too <3
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d00000021fcb0/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  9. #9

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    In my opinion since update 6 wardens have become op. The changes to the determination stance make it by for the best stance (for survivability at least), and coupled with the wardens self heals make them nearly impossible to kill. They just block, parry and evade too much. I sparred a level 50 blue line Warden with 5k morale with my level 50 guardian (similar morale). The spar took the whole of the 3 minutes and I was left standing there with 1k morale while he was still on full. Due to the fact that he blocked, parried or evaded more than half of my attacks and just healed whatever damage i did do.

    We tried again with him not having determination stance on and the battle went a lot more evenly. While it still looked like he would have won had we had more time, I had at least done about 3.5k damage to him by the end of the battle. So yeh, seems like determination stance is what makes the warden so op.

  10. #10

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    In PVP and PVMP wardens are OP that is the beginning and the end of it nothing else even approches captains need defeat responses and minis/rk are fragile and can be interupted. It's because blue lined determination wardens are completly self contained its like having a healer and a tank instead of a single toon so in solo or pvp our nature makes us hard to kill though it takes us forever to deal enough damage to kill anything. But on the other hand if they nerf it we will be useless, completely and totaly useless, in PvE. Since PvE is what the game is based around the pvp an afterthought and most players just ignore it so it really can't be used for a basis on what to do to a class.

    Besides except for the dark days right after RoI wardens on guards usually went to the wardens. Guards traditionally have been on the whole the easiest class for an experienced warden to beat, they are trained by tanking to sit thier and take it alowing wardens to treat them as a mob. I always found the most equal class to warden in a duel to be champs, high DPS vs self heals with neither being ranged gods usually cancelled each others strengths out.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c0000000e3830/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    [url]http://schrodwarden.blogspot.ca/[/url]

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    3,874

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by draganil View Post
    basicly its impossible to kill a shield warden on 1v1 by a creep who is not a defiler.
    and that mid rank creeps are just thrash. i couldnt try 124124vs1 cuz they always run away after 1 or 2 deaths. sadly...
    and i always run with 5blue2yellow. and whats the point runing without 5 blues in moors ? is there a burglar runing with mischief traits? or hunter with yellow line ? yellwo and red line of warden is for pve. not pvp.
    a warden without shield traits is so bad squishy.
    but im going to try some yellow-red hybrids after update. cuz builders going to be 40 meter ranged too <3
    Shield line is for PvE, not the other way around.

    You are squishier in DPS line, however, with audacity you cannot complain.

  12. #12

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    A Warden got three kills with a WL there? I don't buy it, unless the WL was afk. Three kills in 150 seconds... That's a kill every 50 seconds. Assuming 10k morale on the Creep, that means the WL couldn't even out heal 200 DPS from the Warden. That's ridiculous.

    A shield traited Warden will take forever to die, but it will also take forever for them to kill anything. They don't pose a threat to anything beyond egos of Creeps who think they should be able to zerg everything they see.

    Before you ask, no I do not trait shield line in the Moors. I think it's lame because I can't kill anything in less than a minute and half which might as well be an eternity in PvP.
    [center]
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    [color=green][b]Gloarn[/b][/color] 80 Burglar [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Glorn[/b][/color] 75 Champion [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Gloirn[/b][/color] 75 Rune-keeper [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Glourn[/b][/color] 75 Captain
    [color=brown][b]Glarnakh[/b][/color] R7 Warleader [color=grey]|[/color] [color=brown][b]Glarno[/b][/color] R6 Reaver
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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    956

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    I don't buy it
    Did you really have to read anything besides the title of the thread?

    If a shield warden gets a kill against 3+ creeps, those creeps deserve to die anyways. Depending on the setup I would even be willing to amend that to 2+ creeps.

    Quote Originally Posted by thatabguy View Post
    In PvMP my Warden friend, a cappy, a Champ and myself as an Overpower Guard one night decided to flip the map blue and would do so by having our Warden run from the entrance of the keep all the way to the Tyrant room and aggro everything from start to finish including the Tyrant and tank it all at once. He would have so many targets on him that he became invisible. And that was with Rank 1 Audacity, imagine rank 7... In all of the keeps we managed to kill the Tyrant, and in all the keeps but TR we also managed to flip the flag.
    Where were the creeps? Pack flayer+disarm+silence and the warden drops like a rock. PvE =/= PvP, even if it takes place in the moors.
    Last edited by cmal; Apr 13 2012 at 02:06 AM.
    Cmalberg - Elendilmir
    -Stickygritz, Gritzwarr, and all those Gritz. Greblam

    Rock is OP, nerf rock. Paper is balanced.

    I mean everything I ever say, ever.

  14. #14

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Imagine the things we will be able to do now that DC is a new god mode skill waiting to enter our arsenal. The other day I got jumped coming down gv hill by 5 creeps. I killed 3 of them and the other 2 ran away.
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ed-by-5-creeps
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d00000012830c/signature.png]Clieby[/charsig]
    Clieby - 75 Warden Rank 11 / Cliebo 75 Champion Rank 8 / Clieba - 65 Loremaster Rank 5
    Cliebi - 75 Minstrel Rank 5 / Cliebe - 65 Rune-keeper Rank 4 / Clieb - 65 Hunter Rank 3
    Cliebs - 65 Burglar Rank 1 / Cliebx - 65 Captain Rank 0 / Cliebu - 58 Guardian Rank 0

  15. #15

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by cliebo View Post
    Imagine the things we will be able to do now that DC is a new god mode skill waiting to enter our arsenal. The other day I got jumped coming down gv hill by 5 creeps. I killed 3 of them and the other 2 ran away.
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ed-by-5-creeps
    Post a vid from just now when you got killed by 5 creeps that knew what they were doing, lol. The 5 creeps' health bars never dropped below 95% morale. Even running to NPCs didn't save you. Shield traiting ftf.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    391

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Anyone running determination and full shield traits is just looking for facerolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    A shield traited Warden will take forever to die, but it will also take forever for them to kill anything. They don't pose a threat to anything beyond egos of Creeps who think they should be able to zerg everything they see.
    That is true Glorno, unless you playing against a bunch of greenies you are not getting a kill if there are 3-5 creeps on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    They don't pose a threat to anything beyond egos of Creeps who think they should be able to zerg everything they see.
    This statement confuses me. So five people sitting in front of a computer shouldn't make an effort enough to kill one person? It has nothing to do with zerg, it's just that two person should always be able to turn one person down, if played well.

    Let's take for example the tankiest creep class the Warleader, who can barely outheal the dps of one good Burglar. Is it really ok for a warden to outheal the damage of 5 wargs?

    And no creeps have zerg immunity aside from the stalker, why should a warden have?

    F: Esegar (Arkenstone, formerly Meneldor)
    C: Tocu, Seroxat, Tylerdurdenn (Arkenstone) Alberigo, Flamenguista, Parasect (Crickhollow)

  17. #17

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by Esegar View Post

    And no creeps have zerg immunity aside from the stalker, why should a warden have?
    Because if we balance a shield warden to the moors we will be right back to the RoI release date. Shield wardens werent too bad then. Back then we could barely out heal the dps of a fly. The creeps were complaining about shield wardens in U5 and back then we were nowhere near balanced for our tanking jobs compared to the rest of the tanktypes.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000003bfae5/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  18. #18

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by Esegar View Post
    This statement confuses me. So five people sitting in front of a computer shouldn't make an effort enough to kill one person? It has nothing to do with zerg, it's just that two person should always be able to turn one person down, if played well.

    Let's take for example the tankiest creep class the Warleader, who can barely outheal the dps of one good Burglar. Is it really ok for a warden to outheal the damage of 5 wargs?

    And no creeps have zerg immunity aside from the stalker, why should a warden have?
    I think you may have misunderstood me. I was only trying to say that a shield Warden isn't a threat to anything. The only damage they do is to Creeps egos who are mad they can't get the kill. The shield Warden is by no means deadly. Think back to the pre-ROI Defiler, they could run through Freep raids with a brand and come out unscathed. No one really cared because it's not like they were going through owning the whole raid. It's kind of a wash, no one can kill them but they're sure as heck not killing anything either. Who cares, just target something else. This also applied to S+B Guardians, ridiculously hard to kill but they had awful DPS. The easy solution is to just leave them alone.

    Again, I don't trait shield myself (unless the dog packs on my server don't go away ) but I don't really see how it's OP. It may take 3 Creeps to kill one, but it also takes 3 shield Wardens to kill anything lol. I just think the term OP is thrown around much too freely. They're ridiculously difficult to kill, but so what? They're not killing anything they're only acting as... gasp... a tank!

    Quote Originally Posted by cmal View Post
    Where were the creeps? Pack flayer+disarm+silence and the warden drops like a rock. PvE =/= PvP, even if it takes place in the moors.
    Exactly. Any group of 3+ Creeps who are dying to a single shield Warden probably would have died no matter how that Warden was traited. Especially a group with a healer like the OP says it was, that's just sad.
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    [color=brown][b]Glarnakh[/b][/color] R7 Warleader [color=grey]|[/color] [color=brown][b]Glarno[/b][/color] R6 Reaver
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  19. #19

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    My problem with high morale, shield traited wardens is that they don't really bring anything to the PVP group. They don't do damage that matters and can be largely ignored, yet they stack up coms and renown by tagging lots of creeps and riding on the backs of their group dps. There shouldn't be much fun in that, especially when the creep group ignores you until last because you pose no threat.

  20. #20

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Since when does traiting blue mean no dps.

    You could still run in recklessness and crank out decent dps, only difference you have 2 less dot pulses, 10% less melee dmg and less crit, which isn't gamebreaking.

    If a shield traited warden is only sitting in det while 5v1ing then yes they wouldn't be a threat.
    Massterchief
    Arbitter
    Starfoxx

  21. #21

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    I'm no PvPer, but it seems against 5 creeps a yellow/red warden will do pretty good with double EoB/Double resolution rotation. Its less healing, but much more DPS, though distributed. Better yet, it requires no melee to pull it off (except for deft/defensive strike to proc second potency if you aren't in assailment)

    Warning: Theorycraft ahead!

    Builders Gambit Notes
    [FiFi] Goad Directional AoE Light DoT, no range requirement to proc potency.
    Fi[SpSh][FiSh] Exultation of Battle AoE DoT
    AoE HoT
    Battle Memory Exultation of Battle AoE HoT (DoT does not stack)
    [ShSh]
    or [SpSp]
    Defensive Strike
    Deft Strike
    Deft Strike can be built and launched at range if in assailment
    [FiSp][ShFi] Resolution AoE Lifetap
    Battle Memory Resolution AoE Lifetap


    --Harper
    [url=http://alesandtales.com]The Lonely Mountain Band[/url]|[url=http://tinyurl.com/freestyleharp]Freestyle![/url]|[url=http://tinyurl.com/winharperella]Winner: Top Guild Leader![/url]|[url=Weatherstock.guildlaunch.com]Weatherstock V[/url]

  22. #22

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by horus418 View Post
    My problem with high morale, shield traited wardens is that they don't really bring anything to the PVP group. They don't do damage that matters and can be largely ignored, yet they stack up coms and renown by tagging lots of creeps and riding on the backs of their group dps. There shouldn't be much fun in that, especially when the creep group ignores you until last because you pose no threat.
    ^ Who cares how people play their toons.

    Shield traited warden with 18k unbuffed ftw!
    [url=http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/index.php][img]http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/lotro/1/2/2/1/4/112214sSqYY.png[/img][/url]

  23. #23

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by Priestetute View Post
    Since when does traiting blue mean no dps.

    You could still run in recklessness and crank out decent dps, only difference you have 2 less dot pulses, 10% less melee dmg and less crit, which isn't gamebreaking.

    If a shield traited warden is only sitting in det while 5v1ing then yes they wouldn't be a threat.
    I think the assumption is that they are using Determination. Why would you trait all blue just to use Recklessness? Wouldn't you just trait Red at that point? If you're swapping into Determination when you're being attacked, then to me yes that's just being in Determination and posing no threat.
    [center]
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/tY1055I.jpg[/IMG]
    [color=green][b]Gloarn[/b][/color] 80 Burglar [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Glorn[/b][/color] 75 Champion [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Gloirn[/b][/color] 75 Rune-keeper [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Glourn[/b][/color] 75 Captain
    [color=brown][b]Glarnakh[/b][/color] R7 Warleader [color=grey]|[/color] [color=brown][b]Glarno[/b][/color] R6 Reaver
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  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    526

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    I think the assumption is that they are using Determination. Why would you trait all blue just to use Recklessness? Wouldn't you just trait Red at that point? If you're swapping into Determination when you're being attacked, then to me yes that's just being in Determination and posing no threat.
    Since gambits change based on stance it still makes sense to trait blue and run Reck/Assa if you suspect you will need to turtle at some point. You still get to stack bleeds, you still have attack duration and/or damage bonuses from stance. It's not as much damage as if you were also traited red but if you also have a bunch of Might gear to swap in I wouldn't call it "posing no threat".

    Then when the creeps realize you ARE doing damage and turn to you, swap to Det and turtle up. Yes, AFTER you swap stance you're no longer posing a threat, but once you're either dead or they switch targets again you can swap back to Reck/Assa.

    If the survivability difference between blue+Det and red+Det is more significant than the DPS difference between blue+Reck and red+Reck, then it's worth traiting blue and stance dancing. I'm no Moors pro but I've tried at least those combinations in raids and traiting blue allowed me to use Reck/Assa to actually do productive damage and swap to Det to live long enough to run behind something or otherwise delay/prevent death. Traiting red and trying the same stance dancing was a lot harder, basically as soon as I started getting hit I would be at risk of death.

  25. #25

    Re: Epic warden survival in PVP

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    I think the assumption is that they are using Determination. Why would you trait all blue just to use Recklessness? Wouldn't you just trait Red at that point? If you're swapping into Determination when you're being attacked, then to me yes that's just being in Determination and posing no threat.
    Just depends on how you play in the moors, personally if I am shield traiting and run into a 1v1 or 1v2-3 then running in recklessness w/ restoration is enough to burn the creeps down in a fast/efficient way considering pa and mb don't apply dots in Det.

    The bigger fights like the 1v3+ as well as the group build determine how often I switch into det to toss myself HoTs. You shouldn't be in determination while dpsing, no matter how you are traited.
    Massterchief
    Arbitter
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