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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    When I started playing the Loremaster, many years ago, it was a good class. It was highly undervalued by those who eschewed the knowledge of their use and extremely valued by those who understood their potential. As Loremasters our role was clear, we provided CC and debuffs, we coped with wounds and diseases, we helped out with spot healing for morale and were of huge importance as batteries with power sharing. Last but not least, we had some damage skills and even those included little extras like slows and roots, stuns and debuffs - oh and let's not forget the pets.

    This versatility of roles was taught and encouraged by group play at an early level, I remember fondly such things as Othrongroth and Weathertop being fun group instances on level. By the time a Loremaster reached level cap, they did, hopefully understand how they fit into a pivotal role within the group, as an excellent well rounded support class with numerous ways to quietly ease a fellowship or a raid through the different challenges that were presented.

    I do completely understand why a lot of content, especially low-level content is now 100% soloable. The lack of low level characters within a kin or even for pugging would be a great handicap for those trying to move through small or full fellowship content during levelling. So, I'm not knocking that decision, per se - but the current system seems to be delivering any number of apparently incompetent Loremasters to endgame, with little to no idea of their purpose in life.

    I spent a good deal of time avoiding pick up groups, after a series of bad experiences and was fortunate enough to be in a kin which was active and enjoyed group content. Recently however, as the 12-man skirmishes have become pretty easy I've started pugging again and on the whole been surprised and pleased with levels of success in PUGs, either on my LM or on others of my endgame alts.

    What I've started seeing on Loremasters though, horrifies me. So many Loremasters seem to think they are little more than DPS machines, imp sticky gourd flying into a group of mobs before the tank even collects them, tanks stuck stunned while mobs run amok, a raid full of empty power bars, except the Loremaster's who is full to brimming, mobs who've never seen a debuff in their lives and pets who never get summoned. I encountered a level 75 Loremaster recently, who didn't know how to share power.. AT ALL! It frequently appears as though all skills have been greyed out, except those which make fires, lightning and other explosions.

    I'm sure that most of us can't help but smirk a little when we've traited red, our Ents smashes in for 7K some poor unsuspecting mob with our well over +100% tactical damage, but hey - just because we're in DPS and our CC is crippled, it doesn't mean we shouldn't be leading out with SoP:C, Fire Lore and/or other appropriate debuffs. It doesn't stop us draining and sharing power. It doesn't stop us controlling wounds and diseases, spot healing, using a pet, or wait, it turns out our amazing amount of CC is not crippled, as we still have roots, stuns and dazes which work perfectly well EVEN IN MoNF!!

    I am finding as I get out there in the world of PUGs that not only have many Loremasters become silly little firebugs, but that is starting to become the expectation from others in the group. At the start of this soliloquy, I talked about how there used to be a great misunderstanding of the usefulness of the Loremaster. That misunderstanding is now returning, with groups not realising the potential of the Loremaster's many and varied abilities, often with the expectation that a Loremaster is going to end up more of a hindrance than a help.

    I imagine and indeed hope that people who read and post in this forum do not feature in the type of Loremaster I have described above, simply because your presence here indicates that you care about the class, its skills and its role within a fellowship or within a raid.

    I wish I knew how to deal with it. Perhaps the same type of problem occurs across other classes, maybe there are guardians who only know overpower, or minstrels who know only warspeech. I don't know how to deal with it at all...

    ...but I needed to get it off my chest and I thank you for reading.
    Main: Tirnolwe of The Lost Companions, Laurelin (75LM)
    Alts: Silithil (75CHP) Campion (75GRD) Alunadail (75MIN) Geirdis (75CP)
    [url=http://tinyurl.com/c3rduyz]Turbine no plans to fix MyLotro.[/url]

  2. #2

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    I would not disagree with you on the whole of your post. Living in these forums early on kept me from being a DPS troll. I prefer the challenge of group heals, power shares, debuffs, corruption removal, etc. Anyone can spam LotRD, BE, ISG, CE, rinse and repeat. I would not tell others they are playing the class wrong until they get in a ToO run and cant figure out why their BF is 5secs..... Yep had to tell a 75 the other day why I was able to lock my 2 mobs down and his... Sad.

    Now if I can figure out to lock my troll down faster in the acid wing I would be happier.... he pops out quick, even with fast loader slotted.
    Used to show a pic... Seems to be broken links now. Good Ole Turbine.

  3. #3
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    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuaje View Post
    Now if I can figure out to lock my troll down faster in the acid wing I would be happier.... he pops out quick, even with fast loader slotted.
    Off topicly and apparently contradictory to what I said above I trait MoNF for that wing as all the trash have the annoying adaptation... when the boss goes to sleep, have two tanks each pick up a troll, taking one away. Burn down 1 troll + avancs + dragonets with AoE (champs are good at this too), once they are all dead, burn down second troll.

    Obligatory on topic: Ents is really good for this, as it has the secondary CC effect, shutting down a pile of mobs for a couple of seconds whilst they are burned down.
    Main: Tirnolwe of The Lost Companions, Laurelin (75LM)
    Alts: Silithil (75CHP) Campion (75GRD) Alunadail (75MIN) Geirdis (75CP)
    [url=http://tinyurl.com/c3rduyz]Turbine no plans to fix MyLotro.[/url]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    691

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    I share your pain about LMs just being DPS machines. Sadly, so much of the recent content is geared around the "DPS is king" philosophy. I was in a skirmish raid last night and I asked what they needed, debuffs or DPS. The answer? DPS. I sighed to myself and retraited. Although it was a fun raid, I find playing a DPS LM so much less fun than the other roles. Of course, since bosses (and LTs) in 6-man and higher groups are all CC immune, a large part of our utility is marginalized.

    Even when you get to run AM, like in the disease wing of OD, once you get to the trees, it's leave the instance and come back for DPS time.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    West Coast, USA
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    153

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Agree with OP to an extent. I once had a guy ask why I was traited AM for a GB. . . .sad times. It seems Draigoch (and such) has alot of people focused on DPS to the exclusion of all else.

    But the kins I've been in have all required use of all trait lines and skills from their LMs. When ROI first came out I would get asked to switch from MoNF to AM and back again several times a day, depending on the instance. I expect every raid leader to ask for SI and PAAI and StP. So while there may be a large population of unfortunate Loremasters with no one to teach them(or, perhaps, a lazy streak), there are some very good LMs in the game that know how and when to push all the pretty buttons
    .
    Mamakas - L80 Minstrel(Gladden), Izora - L55 Guardian(Riddermark)

  6. #6

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Gotta call it like it is: LMs are being played way too DPS-heavy. Why?

    1) Partly because players are lazy and lack creativity
    2) Partly because there's not enough content that clearly (key word) calls for LM abilities other than share the power.
    3) Partly because, from my perception, the role of LM is not clear-cut enough. There's a lot of incentive to go full DPS and ignore CC to tear through mobs fast.
    Last edited by HardWolf; Mar 13 2012 at 02:01 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    394

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    At least part of the problem is groups don't know or don't care about the benefits effective CC lore-master. Unless there's enough experience or patience in the entire group to listen to a plan, anything other than debuffing and DPSing is often for naught.

    I was back in GB while leveling up an alt, and yes the LM behavior was sub-optimal. Then again, so were the burglars. I didn't see one riddle in a dozen instances, and getting an FM off let alone one the burg called was just as non-existent.

    The quality of PUGs is down, plain and simple.

  8. #8

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    All it takes is one stupid champ to ruin a CC pull and make a young LM never want to focus on CC and Debuffs again.

    Another key point, most stuff up until endgame is blown over with something along the lines of a group of 4 guys close to level and 2 capped players. People do this for the sake of convenience and in these scenarios nothing is needed except DPS. For example, I'd say most GB runs (first experience grouping) are 3 people in the 20's to in the 30's and then a kinmate of one of the players in the 50+ range. Well that 50+ player can solo a level 25ish GB and everyone else comes along to throw in some DPS. I blame this on a lot of poor, grouping players.

  9. #9

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Which is one reason I'm not usually too keen on bringing in the grossly overlevelled ringers to blitz through everything. (Exception being things like the Turtle...sure, you toss in a Fire-lore on cooldown and SoP: Command, but other than that, it really IS just a DPS race. But other than that....when soloing, I don't trait deeper than 3 red because I WANT to have that Blinding Flash in case of an emergency. It's probably good practice anyways.

  10. #10
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    Jun 2011
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    26

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    The biggest issue I see is that the content doesn't really require any other role - other than ToO and then that is stumped by the adaption concept. The only time I ever need to retrait is for that raid. I can understand bosses being immune to CC but trash mobs? And learning - what have all orcs got phd's and gone to uni?

    there needs to either be some way for us to "reset" the adaption on the trash mobs (with limitations of course) or there needs to be some other mechanic invented for the raid encounters that doesn't diminish our role as a cc.

    anyway, just my 2p. I love my LM

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    567

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post
    I encountered a level 75 Loremaster recently, who didn't know how to share power.. AT ALL!
    I ran a 75 Gondamon pug a month ago with 4 other LMs in the party. We got to the boss dragons and nobody tossed Frost Lore. Even when asked, nobody used it, although one person used... Wind Lore. The statistic is biased, but it's still sad to say that 4 of 5 LMs that day had no idea about the skill.

    It's not even a MoNF issue - one of the LMs was traited full KoA (he never leaves KoA for any reason as far as I can tell).

    I wish they could develop a skirmish or two for each class that fully engages that class' core abilities across all 3 trait lines. That might encourage people to experiment a little and get out of their set rotations and comfort zone.

  12. #12
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    Jun 2011
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    304

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgadan View Post
    The biggest issue I see is that the content doesn't really require any other role - other than ToO and then that is stumped by the adaption concept.
    Oh... it started long ago with DN, where you got punished for using CC. Remember trolls who got a buff for each CC?

    We're told the devs hate kiting (remember how hall of mirrors got glue poured onto the lens for the end boss) and CC is continually messed up by the mobs abilities to overcome it - so it really keeps coming down to a tank standing at the front and everyone else using their DPS to kill stuff - never mind that all bosses are immune to CC and by and large even immune to fellowships.

    Our role is getting lost somewhere in the minds of the devs.
    Main: Tirnolwe of The Lost Companions, Laurelin (75LM)
    Alts: Silithil (75CHP) Campion (75GRD) Alunadail (75MIN) Geirdis (75CP)
    [url=http://tinyurl.com/c3rduyz]Turbine no plans to fix MyLotro.[/url]

  13. #13

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post
    Oh... it started long ago with DN, where you got punished for using CC. Remember trolls who got a buff for each CC?

    We're told the devs hate kiting (remember how hall of mirrors got glue poured onto the lens for the end boss) and CC is continually messed up by the mobs abilities to overcome it - so it really keeps coming down to a tank standing at the front and everyone else using their DPS to kill stuff - never mind that all bosses are immune to CC and by and large even immune to fellowships.

    Our role is getting lost somewhere in the minds of the devs.
    This is actually one of the most accurate description of the CC problems that I've seen in quite a while.

    My LM is only level 31, but I play a hunter and barely ever use my meagre CC skills in instances because they just don't work. Not only on bosses but on part of the trash as well.

    Even when they do work, people just don't expect CC any more.

    I do use it a lot in skirmishes and out in the field but in instances it's very rare.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000001ee718/01008/signature.png]Lucanthanas[/charsig]

  14. #14
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    Jun 2011
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    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    I play a lore-master although she is not my main character but I was lucky enough to begin my raiding career (on a champ) with 2 extraordinarily good lore-masters within the group. They worked so awesomely as a team and everything always turned out well with them both on board, so when It because time for me to roll my Lore-Master I had high standards to live up to and good people to learn from.

    I leveled her to 65 and stopped...

    Playing Lore-Master now isn't fun. i didn't roll the class to just dps everything because my cc abilities are crippled due to dev idiocy. If i wanted to do that I'd play my champion.
    I HATE so much a lore-master who does nothing but dps, even more when they don't let the tank get aggro before firing off their Ents/ISG attacks, THEN have the cheek to blame the tank for not having aggro (I play a Guardian as my main now).

    I don't think i'll be playing her again until there is suitable content for my play style (CC/Debuff/Off-healing) and not just stupid ZOMGDPS stuff.

    To OP... +1
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0000001294f7/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [U]Officer, The Lost Companions - Laurelin[RP][/U]
    Krougar 75 Guardian / Gwelendrial 75 Champion / Fredderic 75 Burglar / Bleadwyn 75 warden / Rauxelle 75 Lore-Master / Korromire 75 Hunter

  15. #15

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    With all due respect, I don't dev "idiocy" comes into it. I like to take their actions in good faith.

    It looks very much like the community weren't vocal or specific enough when it came to what LMs needed.

  16. #16
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    304

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by HardWolf View Post
    It looks very much like the community weren't vocal or specific enough when it came to what LMs needed.
    To a certain extent, that is almost circular reasoning.

    The average LM knowledge pool decreases and tends towards DPS, so Devs think LMs want to be DPSy, so LMs get more DPSy and demand more DPS...
    Main: Tirnolwe of The Lost Companions, Laurelin (75LM)
    Alts: Silithil (75CHP) Campion (75GRD) Alunadail (75MIN) Geirdis (75CP)
    [url=http://tinyurl.com/c3rduyz]Turbine no plans to fix MyLotro.[/url]

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    567

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post
    To a certain extent, that is almost circular reasoning.

    The average LM knowledge pool decreases and tends towards DPS, so Devs think LMs want to be DPSy, so LMs get more DPSy and demand more DPS...
    I think this is true, but it is a circular causal chain, not circular reasoning.

    Clearly, the calls to improve our dps line can be clearly seen in other threads (inductions, fire-on-the-go, single-target damage, stances, etc.). I don't fault people for asking for this, but wouldn't personally add more changes in that direction. I would rather see more work go into AM and KoA. Adding more excitement into these lines would help counterbalance the issues raised by the OP, which I largely agree with.

  18. #18
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    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post
    Oh... it started long ago with DN, where you got punished for using CC. Remember trolls who got a buff for each CC?
    Yeah, but other parts of DN are specially suited for LMs. We're the ones shooting the Mistress's spores, removing corruptions on the Blind One, stunning world eaters so the others have time to mop up the smaller guys. They needed to make some guys punish CC to help keep a balance.

    I have realized that I do seem to be using less CC than I was before. When hordes of screaming champs go into Slice-n-Dice mode, I never know which mobs are safe to stun. Safer to just blast away. If we wipe, blame the mini or something.

    And debuffs are just not as... cool as DPS. My Firelore is just another icon in the boss's debuff bar. But if I fire off Lightning Storm, everyone sees the big flash and ka-BOOM!

  19. #19
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    Dec 2011
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    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Well, my LM recently reached lvl63, so I can't say about the endgame, but

    I enjoy getting in close combat, hitting monsters with weapons and both damaging and debuffing spells. Of CC, stun is part of 3 skill, all are doing damage (but ToS damage is so low, that it is now worth of mentioning), theese is DPS + couple of valuable seconds. Dazes unfortunately, are widely worthless, becasue most of time mob is released almost immidiately by some champion, or other DPS player.
    I like sharing the power to, but I find myself dry too oftem, as my draw the power skill never really works on bosses, and mostly, trash is killed before I'm 1/4 done drawning :/
    fire rk is just hunt clone without evade, ports and lower mits, or LM clone without CC, pets and 1 less gear slot.
    thx for destroying yellow line and the entire class with it

  20. #20
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    Jun 2011
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    304

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilan View Post
    Yeah, but other parts of DN are specially suited for LMs. We're the ones shooting the Mistress's spores, removing corruptions on the Blind One, stunning world eaters so the others have time to mop up the smaller guys. They needed to make some guys punish CC to help keep a balance.
    CC on spores and indeed on the BO ghosts is arguably the worst of all crimes, turning CC skills into DPS skills.

    ... and everyone can remove corruptions, with RKs and Minstrels showing well against a loremaster in that department.

    World Eaters I'll give you, but it's a tiny portion of that raid.
    Main: Tirnolwe of The Lost Companions, Laurelin (75LM)
    Alts: Silithil (75CHP) Campion (75GRD) Alunadail (75MIN) Geirdis (75CP)
    [url=http://tinyurl.com/c3rduyz]Turbine no plans to fix MyLotro.[/url]

  21. #21
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    304

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Dazes unfortunately, are widely worthless, becasue most of time mob is released almost immidiately by some champion, or other DPS player.
    This is indeed part of the problem - other classes need to understand the value of CC, watch out for it and learn to adapt in close combat to not use AoE until or unless the tank has the opportunity to move the remaining mobs away from the controlled ones. It takes discipline to do it and I have seen very little discipline in a 12-man pug facerollthemobs style of skirm.

    I like sharing the power to, but I find myself dry too oftem, as my draw the power skill never really works on bosses, and mostly, trash is killed before I'm 1/4 done drawning :/
    You need to pick your targets a bit, when fighting trash, look for a signature mob which isn't the current focus of the RAT and draw from that. With bosses, they will sometimes resist, but if they do, you can retry immediately without waiting for the CD, you'll get it on the second or third attempt, it just takes a little longer. Slot Power and Wisdom, so that when you do draw power, you get plenty of it.
    Main: Tirnolwe of The Lost Companions, Laurelin (75LM)
    Alts: Silithil (75CHP) Campion (75GRD) Alunadail (75MIN) Geirdis (75CP)
    [url=http://tinyurl.com/c3rduyz]Turbine no plans to fix MyLotro.[/url]

  22. #22
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    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post

    You need to pick your targets a bit, when fighting trash, look for a signature mob which isn't the current focus of the RAT and draw from that. With bosses, they will sometimes resist, but if they do, you can retry immediately without waiting for the CD, you'll get it on the second or third attempt, it just takes a little longer. Slot Power and Wisdom, so that when you do draw power, you get plenty of it.
    By not working, I mean, I get the cooldown, animation, etc, but power bar remain unchanged.
    fire rk is just hunt clone without evade, ports and lower mits, or LM clone without CC, pets and 1 less gear slot.
    thx for destroying yellow line and the entire class with it

  23. #23

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    By not working, I mean, I get the cooldown, animation, etc, but power bar remain unchanged.
    Which bosses are we talking specifically?

  24. #24
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    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    Quote Originally Posted by HardWolf View Post
    Which bosses are we talking specifically?
    GS bosses, dragon and dourhand general at end of Gondamon skirm, 1/2 orc at end of TiT skirm, and I think some more, but can't recall any.
    fire rk is just hunt clone without evade, ports and lower mits, or LM clone without CC, pets and 1 less gear slot.
    thx for destroying yellow line and the entire class with it

  25. #25

    Re: The slide of the Loremaster into the Arsonmaster

    I for one love lm DPS(hope that this is on topic the whole OP was a bit too long) not that i don't occasionally retrait blue and someone said that anyone can spam damaging skills, i disagree, DPS right IMO is timing the skills properly. the debuffs and CCs make DPs highly tactical, it is know when to use a buff, when to debuff, when to switch up your rotation and when to to pop TOW or LOTRD not right after its off CD.


    the point im trying to make is, a good DPS lm takes skill too. though i may not be all these thing i just thought i would remind you
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/13213000000051a48/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    lore-masters are like wolves, alone we're pretty great but in a pack...

 

 
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