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  1. #1

    Lightbulb Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    While reading other suggestion threads on the hunter forums, I’ve been pretty quiet. It’s been very interesting to see other people’s thoughts on the class. I’ve stopped playing my hunter since ROI, since I’m awaiting changes to the class (and discovered I love to heal), but I read the hunter forums every day.

    That being said, I wanted to put my ideas out there so that we can have constructive conversation about what can be done for the hunter class. In the “Official Class Suggestion” thread, I suggested core ideas about what hunters need: survivability, top tier dps, a secondary raiding role, and mobility. In order to accommodate these ideas, I focused on two ideas, stances and traitlines.

    Stances

    My idea for the hunter is to place more emphasis on different stances so that each is productive without being tied to a trait line.

    When we consider our friend the Burglar, the Burglar has three stances:

    Gambler: Increased damage on gambles, +evade, and debuffs resists.
    Quiet Knife: Increased damage, decreased threat.
    Mischief: Reduces power cost, changes cooldown of mez. Unable to sneak.

    “Mischief” allows the Burglar to perma-mez a target and gain access to a couple skills that allow further crowd control. With this in mind, I suggest creating a crowd control stance, the “Trapper.”

    When a hunter is not in “Trapper” stance, they can retain access to the basic traps: the trap and the snare, as well as Distracting Shot on a relatively long cooldown. The “Trapper” stance would be useful in situations where CC is required, retain a core element of the class, but would not require sacrificing traited damage in order to be useful.

    The Fox, or “Trapper” Stance: “A clever hunter is able to anticipate the movement of its prey.”

    - Decreased cooldown and induction for Distracting Shot.
    - Access to Rain of Thorns, Bard’s Arrow, and new skills, “Trip-wire,” which begins a CJ on a mob, and “Triple Trap,” with three traps (the consumable would be removed from the game, while other specialty traps should still be crafted.) Bard’s Arrow and RoT would need to be either combined into a single legendary trait, or removed as legendary traits altogether.
    - Decreased induction time for traps.
    - Traps can be used in combat.
    - Increased mitigations, P/E (not so much as “Survivability Stance”, more than “Strength Stance.”)
    - Trap types modified into increased damage for snare, and increased holding time for the normal Trap.
    -10% inductions. (Reason: While “Trapper” would decrease damage, shorter inductions would allow for more damage while doing CC, such as perma-mezzing.)

    Wardens have also received a new ranged stance, in which they are able to execute gambits at range, with a cost to their B/P/E. However, this cost makes sense because they are inherently a melee class. For hunters, a ranged class, a type of kiting stance is justified. Just as it is for a melee class to have range, so also it is useful for a ranged class to be able to retain its range. In its current form, “Fleetness” is a short buff that can be traited to become longer. There are some situations where hunters simply need to be able to retain mobility – the OD wound wing dps race, fighting Draigoch’s paws, PvMP, solo situations – and hunters are one of the few classes (if only class) where mobile fights put them at a significant disadvantage.

    The Eagle, or“Fleetness” Stance: “A hunter is able to focus on the move, and clutch its prey when it gets close.”

    -Focus no longer decreases with movement. All shots retain their induction times, but are usable on the move. Decreased induction knockback from damage, but can still be interrupted.
    -Decreased movement miss chance, can modify with a legacy or trait.
    -Base 5% speed increase, could perhaps be modified with a trait or legacy.
    -Decreased bow range from 40 meters to 20 meters (could perhaps be increased to 30 from a melee legacy.)
    -Increased crit defense.
    -Increased melee critical chance, with shorter cooldowns on melee skills.
    -Modifies melee skills to increase debuffs or buffs.

    Additionally, there are some situations where a hunter will need to range tank, or, when fighting elites and multiple mobs, may wish to simply be able to survive certain situations. As such they must sacrifice damage in order to be able to withstand such situations. Since this would be either a range tank or solo stance, the threat increase is very high in order to deter hunters from using this stance in raids.

    The Boar, or “Endurance” Stance: “A seasoned hunter will be able to withstand the most brutal assaults of the wild.”

    - Increase to crit defense, ICMR, ICPR, mitigations, slight increase to P/E.
    - +20% threat.

    And of course we come to the main dps stance, in which I have tried to combine strength and precision for an effective combination. The other stances would, when traited, still give a chance for hunters to try different playstyles without sacrificing massive dps.

    The Lynx, or“Precision” Stance: “With a keen eye, hunter is at its most focused when able to target its enemies from afar”

    -Increase range to 50m. (Yes, I said it. Wardens get 40 meters, and we’re hunters. Arrows go further than javelins.)
    -+15% damage, -10% threat , -5% base induction time (all modified by traits).
    - Decreased miss chance.
    -If focus conditions are not changed, 1 focus every 5s.
    -Increased mitigations (not as much as “Endurance” or “Trapper” stance).
    -Increased finesse.

    Additionally, like the burglar, with these changes hunters should not be able to change stances in combat. Currently the greatest incentive for changing stances is to drop threat and reduce power consumption during a fight, but with these changes, it would be too OP to be able to change on the fly. I would suggest a skill on a 30 minute cooldown (similar to Ready and Able) that would allow a hunter to change stances mid-combat. But the preparatory nature of the class (being ready for a fight before it happens) should be retained in this fashion.

    Traitlines

    The three different traitlines would provide bonuses the deeper one traits, and, as they currently do, increase bonuses for traits 5-7 of the same color.

    Blue becomes a line focused on speed and focus, with *one* trait for AOE damage. Traiting deeper into blue would provide net decreases in power consumption and induction speed. Because Fleetness has been changed to a stance, the legendary trait would have to be different, perhaps a buff that would decrease power consumption for a while as well as increase damage.

    Red is a line for net damage. Traiting deeper into red will buff flat ranged damage, while decreasing threat. The Legendary trait for red line could probably stay the same. I have no current observations about Cool Burn.

    Yellow becomes a debuffing line, with perhaps *one* trait that helps CC. Traiting deeper into yellow would buff finesse and critical rating. With the removal of Explosive Arrow, a new legendary trait would need to be implemented, in accordance with the nature of the debuffs. I’d love to see some massive debuff, or the ability to begin a fellowship maneuvere on demand. It might be OP, but you’d have to trait five deep into yellow to get it.

    If RoT and Bard’s Arrow were combined into one slot, or removed so that they become skills, this would free up some room for new legendary traits. I, and many hunters, are not entirely pleased with the Press Onward or Bow of the Righteous legendary skills either, as one has a lengthy induction, while the other provides very low power return. I would like to see a survival trait, such as Martial Hands, for Hunters, as well as a powerful emergency skill as a legendary trait.

    Itemization

    Hunters, at end-game, should have three different books, with four outputs, like the warden’s carving or RK’s chisel.

    The four outputs would consist of one of the following cores: +220 morale, +220 power, +1000 tactical mitigation, or +1000 physical mitigation.

    Book 1: Book of the Falcon’s Call. -10% attack duration, -5% attack speed. +7.5% devastate magnitude.
    Book 2: Book of the Bear’s Strength. +1000 finesse. +15% critical multiplier.
    Book 3: Book of the Hart’s Calm. -10% threat, -10% power costs.

    Additionally, hunters have some of the most consumables in the game. As a result, each type should be examined and consolidated so that hunters can save money and still be effective.

    Oils: Oils change damage types of a hunter’s bow, as well as provide additional effects. Currently hunters only have light or fire damage types as options.
    Fire: Fire damage, plus small bleed.
    Light: Light damage, plus miss chance.
    Poison: (Categorized as acid) “A hunter knows how to use the herbs of the forest to weaken his foes.” Adds a stackable finesse debuff.
    Pure: “A good hunter knows that a straight arrow is the best arrow.” Wipes all tactical effects off the bow for the duration, including AD/Bele/Westernesse. If the target is weakest to common damage, then hunters need to be able to do common damage without carrying an extra bow. IF this were to be added to the game, it should probably be added to other dps classes, champ in particular, since damage type is extremely important to raiding.

    Chants: Chants enhance bow skills. Currently there are three types. One reduces armor mitigation, while the others reduce block or parry chances. Bow chants should be consolidated into two types: one for mitigation, the other to increase the hunter’s finesse (effectively reducing the target’s B/P/E). Honestly, I think if we were to get a debuff line, these should be removed from the game entirely.

    Focus Potions: Are fine as is.

    Thank you for reading, and let me know what you think. I plan to post later regarding new skill suggestions, particularly focusing on a strong debuffing aspect.
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    75 hunter Cilantro *Retired until hunters see changes* 75 Warden Aerdith * 75 RK Vanmoriel * 67ish LM Celothwen * 52 Burg Lemongrass

  2. #2
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    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    The only thing I can see that could be troublesome in your proposal is the moving inductions in your Precision Stance because there is currently no tech in the game to allow that and even if they created it you would still have the issue of never being able to cancel an induction that you have started which in some situations could be troublesome, and so instead I would recommend looking at the Black Arrow's Skirmisher stance, which allows 3 skills to lose their inductions and be useable on the move, for a work around to this entire issue.
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  3. #3

    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    Quote Originally Posted by wikjif View Post
    The only thing I can see that could be troublesome in your proposal is the moving inductions in your Precision Stance because there is currently no tech in the game to allow that and even if they created it you would still have the issue of never being able to cancel an induction that you have started which in some situations could be troublesome, and so instead I would recommend looking at the Black Arrow's Skirmisher stance, which allows 3 skills to lose their inductions and be useable on the move, for a work around to this entire issue.
    I don't think you even need to go as far as the Skirmisher stance if you want to have an "inductionless" stance/traitline/etc. Simply making quick shot no induction(add a cooldown to it, or else it becomes OP) and useable on the run would allow for enough generation of focus to use more blood arrow and Pen shot on the move.

    The induction-less stance is really only useful in the moors, or in some crazy kiting pve scenarios (few and far between in my experience, and they can usually be fixed with BlA and PS on the move.If I run out of focus, IC or Focus pot). I truly don't think there is a huge problem soloing in the moors, unless it's against a BA, but then again Crickhollow isn't anywhere near the top of any PvmP talent lists. I'm not in favor of this, but if you wanted to create a "mobile" stance this would be a good way to go about it, I think. Then again, I already get bored with a 5 skill rotation, reducing it to 3 would be mind-numbing.

    I do like the idea of using stances to make the class more diverse, since IMO we have too many skills as is (most of them juuuust situational enough to still keep on my toolbar, but I digress). Overall good ideas.
    Megabob

  4. #4
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    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldin View Post
    I don't think you even need to go as far as the Skirmisher stance if you want to have an "inductionless" stance/traitline/etc. Simply making quick shot no induction(add a cooldown to it, or else it becomes OP) and useable on the run would allow for enough generation of focus to use more blood arrow and Pen shot on the move.

    The induction-less stance is really only useful in the moors, or in some crazy kiting pve scenarios (few and far between in my experience, and they can usually be fixed with BlA and PS on the move.If I run out of focus, IC or Focus pot). I truly don't think there is a huge problem soloing in the moors, unless it's against a BA, but then again Crickhollow isn't anywhere near the top of any PvmP talent lists. I'm not in favor of this, but if you wanted to create a "mobile" stance this would be a good way to go about it, I think. Then again, I already get bored with a 5 skill rotation, reducing it to 3 would be mind-numbing.
    My use of Skirmisher stance was mostly based off of the OP's enjoyment of getting ideas from how the other classes' stances are put together and my lack of specific hunter knowledge as my hunter is only level 17 and has been for a couple of years, I believe.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    i could see a QS usable on the move, but in the name of balance it would have to consume 1 focus instead of building 1 focus. but to do that it would have to be tied to a stance (either a revamp of endurance to also buff melee, which would make sense with the current parry buff, or a class trait) then you ask: how could we build focus on the move then? simple: let all melee skills in the stance (i'd prefer all the time) build 1 focus. melee skills can be used on the move already.

    the only trouble is, that melee skill damage is less than melee auto-attack damage. my tooltip for my rank 7 75 2nd age dagger says 121 DPS 176-287 beleriend damage, add in +100% PM, now mainhand autoattacks do 352- 574 beleriend. all my melee skill tooltips show 300ish - 500ish mainhand damage. offhand values for a 121 DPS weapon on melee skill tooltips do roughly 250ish - 400ish. still way less than 352 - 574 offhand autoattack damage. i get charged 200+ power to do LESS damage than if i let the autoattack fire off! aren't we a DPS class? nay, a NUKER class?!

    and i forgot about RoI beta, when they tried making QS inductionless... they couldn't balance it right. either nobody used any other skills because QS was too awesome (no induction, no cooldown, no other gating mechanic, like focus) or nobody used QS (because the aftercast was just way too clunky) that's why i think that to make QS inductionless it would have to become a focus shot.

    on another note: i've never understood why hunters want to CC. aren't hunters a Nuker class? sure, i'm fine with some sort of group utility, but if i wanted to CC, i would have rolled a LM or a burg.

    however, even after saying that, i still agree we should have more trap skills, tripwire and triple trap have been asked to be turn into skills since they were introduced. some sort of dirt trap that would blind foes would be welcome too. i don't like having 3 different class traits that only affect ONE skill: set trap. why do we need 3 traits to make one skill useful? (okay, to be fair sturdy traps also slightly boosts set snare damage, too, but is that really worth mentioning other than for techicalities?)
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
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  6. #6
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    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    i could see a QS usable on the move, but in the name of balance it would have to consume 1 focus instead of building 1 focus. but to do that it would have to be tied to a stance (either a revamp of endurance to also buff melee, which would make sense with the current parry buff, or a class trait) then you ask: how could we build focus on the move then?
    [...]
    and i forgot about RoI beta, when they tried making QS inductionless... they couldn't balance it right. either nobody used any other skills because QS was too awesome (no induction, no cooldown, no other gating mechanic, like focus) or nobody used QS (because the aftercast was just way too clunky) that's why i think that to make QS inductionless it would have to become a focus shot. [...]
    Two potential solutions to the conundrum that you have presented are either to raise the power cost of QS to the point that spamming it will result in no power very quickly while still allowing it to grant focus for the other skills or to put a small cooldown on it so that it is impossible to rapidly spam it and require you to use other skill, the drawback to this is that if the cooldown has to be extended too much they might have to have something else to also generate focus to keep things going smoothly which melee attacks could potentially fit or maybe some other ranged attack with a cooldown.
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    Lightbulb Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    Quote Originally Posted by slflew View Post
    Poison: (Categorized as acid) “A hunter knows how to use the herbs of the forest to weaken his foes.” Adds a stackable finesse debuff.
    A dev said they would never have freeps use acid/poison as that is only used by 'evil' beings... but the suggestions were great. Although, some seem OP to me. They need some kind of 'penalty/cost' for the devs to deem it a 'balance'.

    As for the boar stance; Hunters shouldn't be able to tank, that is the guardian/warden's role.

    For the consumables, I agree that they need to be lessened. Maybe for oils, the consumable will be merged into one named just "Oil" and hunters get skills (when they unlock the fire/light oil use) to choose their oil's type. The grade of oil still determines the duration. Oil types can only be changed every 5min (both skills will go into CD) OR they can be changed mid-combat but the skill used will go into 10 min CD.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    Great post. I have been thinking about something along these lines for a long time now. Though I have never gone to such detail & I only thought about the stances.
    Doing this from my not so smart phone, I will keep this shorter than I would like
    For those that played EQ you will remember how there were a few classes that were caster focused or melee focused versions of eachother. Necromancers & shadowknights, clerics & paladins. So, while I am not suggesting that we start throwing javelins.. I was thinking of how they are similar to each other now days.
    I was thinking, combine Str. Stance & precision into one. change one into a melee stance & one a CC stance. (I'm not trying to imply combine all the bonuses from each stance or trait line) .. Leave red as ranged dps. Make the blue line into a melee line. Yellow the CC line. But where the wdn is a far better tank, hunters would be far better melee dps, but have more survivability (inI melee stance) than in ranged dps stance. OK, doing this from my phone is killing me & I think I got most of my point across.

    Again, great idea and thanks!

  9. #9

    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    Great ideas.

    Awesome post.

    Never gonna happen.

    Dev Reason: Too overpowered, Hunters are in a "great" spot right now and all skills are "WAI"
    My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit,[I] Defiant-Class[/I], [I]U.S.S. Say My Name[/I], NCC-93144

  10. #10

    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    if wardens get a mediocre range dps stance why couldn't we get a mediocre tank stance with a damage penalty.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  11. #11

    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    if wardens get a mediocre range dps stance why couldn't we get a mediocre tank stance with a damage penalty.
    The reason I came up with the "Boar" stance was for a) range tanking and b) situations where survivability is paramount. I considered adding a damage increase to it, but decided not to because by not being in the DPS line, you are already losing a lot of DPS, and because hunters still need some dps threat in order to effectively range tank.

    A) Range tanking is a rarely used, great method for overcoming some difficult fights. In the first twin bosses of Lost Temple, I range tanked one of the bosses, and in the (Disease? or Poison? I forget which) wing of Ost Dunhoth, my raid group's initial approach to the tree bosses was to have two hunters range tank them. This was while the threat component of Strength stance was still active, which was taken away with Isengard. While I agree that hunters using Strength stance shouldn't be penalized with aggro, this effectively took away another job that we did well.

    B) There are some solo fights where the aggro component wouldn't matter, but the survivability option would. While you can prepare for most fights, there are some where inevitably things can go wrong. Whether or not it's a tightly packed camp with npcs that can path into you, or a camp with an elite you have to solo with four adds and no CC, it would be great just to have that survivability option rather than have none at all and pray that you survive.

    Thanks for reading!
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    75 hunter Cilantro *Retired until hunters see changes* 75 Warden Aerdith * 75 RK Vanmoriel * 67ish LM Celothwen * 52 Burg Lemongrass

  12. #12

    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    With the new limlight area survivability is a bigger issue. Though I am not enthusiastic about the gear from it(lots of agi but no vitality). I notice many classes(guards,wardens, and even RK's) talking about soloing those trolls and even the hourns. I am certain we will not last 20 seconds even with herbalist support. I tried and got the snot beat of me while trying to kite them. The issue is the inability to cc them and to do any significant damage without stopping and being then having to take a hit. As a note also they can almost keep up with me even with find the path on.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  13. #13

    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    The trolls are soloable if you keep your CCs up and don't do ANYTHING apart from SotE and Press Onward when they're feared. The 15sec fear seems to cancel their momentum buff.

  14. #14
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    Re: Yet Another Hunter Revamp Suggestion: Stances, Traits, and Itemization

    I disagree with the +20% threat generation that you propose be attached to the "Boar" stance. If it really is something that's going to ward hunters from sitting in that stance all the time for the mitigations, I believe it should be increased to something obnoxiously high, like +50%, since a guardian can already overcome that +20% threat just from threat stance, and they have the selfless defence trait they can apply to someone for the -10% threat generation (I play a guardian as my main, that trait is really handy when you're grouped with awesome DPS.)

    Aside from that, these don't look like bad changes.

  15. #15
    Even though this was written a year ago, very few things have changed since then. As a result, I'm bumping it for the "Month of the Hunter," as Lendas suggested.

    Please let me know what you think of these ideas!
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    75 hunter Cilantro *Retired until hunters see changes* 75 Warden Aerdith * 75 RK Vanmoriel * 67ish LM Celothwen * 52 Burg Lemongrass

  16. #16
    You should probably post these suggestions where the Dev has posted and is asking for suggestions.
    My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit,[I] Defiant-Class[/I], [I]U.S.S. Say My Name[/I], NCC-93144

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    Quote Originally Posted by slflew View Post
    If RoT and Bard’s Arrow were combined into one slot, or removed so that they become skills, this would free up some room for new legendary traits.
    IMO lots of good suggestions but one that caught my eye was this. I think that cry of the hunter with a weak bubble is a bit silly. Why not have Cry of the hunter as a AoE fear, perhaps with same animation or not, a 1/3 morale heal. With the designed effect being useful panic button button but not HA I WIN type skill. Dying with melee mobs on you? hit cry of the hunter - moderate heal , make them run away - have a chance to mow them down at range with chance to break etc.

    As implemented Cry of the hunter didn't seem to get a good critics review - maybe non resistable as yellow casptone legendary?

    Just a thought.
    Elendilmir - 95 Hunter Berenthalion - 80ish Burg Berendybuck - baby warden Berenion.

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