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  1. #201
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Balagast View Post
    You do realize there is a tactical mitigation necklace that you can get for casters. I wasn't referring to using the Agi Tact Mit necklace on my RK. I just didn't happen to have it equipped when I checked because I swap it out. http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Item:I%C3%BAlin in case you are unsure what I am referring to.
    If you read my posts you'd see the answer for this one. Someone else already pointed this out and I answered that I was not aware of the caster necklace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balagast View Post
    The point I was trying to make is that for tactical Mit it is easier to get on an RK or LM because they can get passive and titles for their class items that help.
    I disagreed because I did not know of the caster necklace with tact miti, which changes a lot as the 1500 tact miti on the necklace no longer makes up for the tact miti available on titles and passives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balagast View Post
    I can see the need to stack more mitigation and morale for Saruman T2, but that is one very specific case where all classes would have to gear more specifically for it.
    Its specific in the way that it requires high tactical mitigation, but every fight has some specific requirements if you want to make the most of your raid spot. As Saruman is the last and hardest fight those requirements become much more important though.

  2. #202

    Angry Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I read the original post, but skipped a lot of the replies after the original. However, that original post is as relevant today as the day it was posted. I agree with the original in its entirety!

    The hunter is still the most neglected class of all the LOTRO classes. I speak not only from a PVE perspective but from a PVP/PVMP perspective as well. I have been playing LOTRO since the stress test. I bought my VIP before the game went public and have played most of the classes. I have stuck with the hunter even when it is maligned by the other players. We have been referred to as huntards, etc...

    In order to effectively fix the hunter for PVMP play we would need to have our escape skill, Desperate Flight, repaired or modified to give us a chance to get out of harms way. I am not asking for it to take me completely out of the realm of battle; that would cause more QQing from the creeps and creep lovers. In fact, I usually prefer to try and fight against the 1v1 odds, but when the odds are overwhelming, the game tends to lose its fun factor...

    The Devs have been thoughtful enough to give the Blood Arrows a 15 second evade with which they cannot be cc'd in any way, and they take zero damage during that time. That in combination with their skirmishers stance spells doom for any hunter, and other classes. And now with the wargs have their new skills and mitigation; the fact is that the wargs run in packs now; as a result, the hunter is targeted for destruction and easily dispatched by two wargs, or a combination of wargs and other creep classes. Of course, the wargs are able to HIPS and sprint away from harm, while the hunter has had our escape mechanism stripped from us; Also, the reaver, is able to use dying rage to escape giving renown to the freep/s. The reaver may die as a result of using "dying rage", but that doesn't change the facts. So what is the big deal with DF?

    The fact that you have allowed for creeps and at least one other freep class keep their escape mechanism, which has allowed for them to avoid damage or defeat, makes the argument for the nerfing of DF a moot point. I understand that creeps would argue otherwise; But when simple logical analysis and thinking is put to the pen, there in no real good reason for DF to have been nerfed in the first place other than to appease the hurt and qq of the creep players.

    If you so-called conscientious Developers cannot see your way to fix or modify what was nerfed as an escape mechanism, perhaps you could see your way clear to please fix our mitigation. First you nerf our mitigation and then you give us this finesse that is supposed to make things better and make it look like you really care. If that isn't enough, after much QQing by the creeps, you make more changes to the Moors and have the "Audacity" (pun intended) to give us armor that has poor stats, removes more of our ability to survive in the Moors, and only gives hunters a few more seconds to live because you want to make battles last longer. Battle does last a few seconds longer because it only takes a few seconds (if that long) for two or three creeps to destroy my hunter, even with +5 audacity.

    Your new armor drops our meager +3 stealth detection we get on the Studded Hlifheror armor and rewards it with armor set rewards that are mediocre at best and really don't help that much. In order to get a good set of the new pvp armor, we have to mix and match the new sets (usually two pieces from each set) just to get decently geared up. Furthermore, the lack of mitigation makes it extremely difficult for us to get the commendations needed to get the "audacity" armor...I have been told by other players that they can get up to 3000 commendations a day or more playing on creepside...

    There is more that can be done, but this reply is getting long. If it sounds like I am pissed-off, perhaps it is because I am a bit perturbed. I bought my VIP membership in good faith that the class of my choice would be kept in balance with the other classes. This has not happened. I could roll another class, but why should I discard a character that I have spent hundreds of hours trying to perfect just because the developer/s of this game have taken a disliking to that class, or choose to pander to the QQing creep classes?

    Furthermore, is there some really good reason why we can never get a decent reply and explanation from the developers???
    Stars...We don't need no stinking Stars!

    “If you wound us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that” ~William Shakespeare


    "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ~Mark Twain

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  3. #203
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I wrote going with 21% miti at Lightning and Saruman can be painful, not that it is impossible. A bad hit from a limrafn or from Saruman can easily chop a big chunk of your morale and it tends to happen somewhat often, especially at Saruman.

    I dont care how you build your hunter or RK, I mind when you whine about your RK having more mitigations than your hunter when it's a matter of how you build your toons:

    You might as well have written "My burg has more agi than my hunter", it is still a matter of how you gear them.

    And how is it condescending to say stacking mit will cause you to lose DPS? Its obvious that stacking one will hurt the other and the key is to find the balance between mitigations and DPS, a hunter with low DPS isnt of much use and neither is a dead high-DPS hunter.
    I haven't been hit by more than 2-3k by a limrafin, so not sure what the issue is there.

    My complaint is completely relevant, my poorly geared RK is ably to max healing with ease and still be able to stack mits. It makes the most of it raid spot. My hunter is far better geared, but to make the most of it raid spot I drop my mits below my light armor RK.

    Burgs and hunters are both agility based classes, well geared burgs can easily have as much agility as well geared hunters. Hunters are medium armor, RKs are light. A well geared hunter should have more mitigation than a poorly geared RK.

    Condescending can be defined as follows: Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority (google.com).

    When you repeatedly state that not only am I gearing incorrectly, but that you know how they ought to be geared, yes that seems condescending.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c000000069736/01005/signature.png]Smugo[/charsig]

  4. #204
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    Smile Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Greetings all! I would like to say thanks to the OP, excellent breakdown along with a few other replies to this thread as well.

    I haven't raided much in the past and am currently non-vip so I figured I would add my 2 cents from the aspect of the average hunter.

    Let's start out with our LI's, yes they need improvement and maybe some consolidation of legacies. The only thing I'd like to add is please give us something besides 1% crit chance on auto attacks that identifies with the bow.

    A few people brought up some fantastic ideas with the campfires, and I totally agree there. They are pretty lame right now and would be quite useful if they provided some in combat power or morale regen. Adding herbs to them would be nice to change their effects on the groups as well.

    Improved focus is nice and all, but why doesn't this have different options depending on what stance we are in? Those that start in endurance or precision probably don't want to have the extra crit % right off the bat.

    Desperate flight.. who even uses that anymore? It was ok at lower levels when soloing but the cool down (and the fact you get mapped to the "nearest" rez circle) kinda makes it a lame skill. I would maybe suggest something like it takes you out of combat and gives you a temporary run speed buff. That way you get your ooc morale and power regen and the ability to sprint past your tank if you're in a group to hope he gets the aggro back. The cool down definitely needs to be addressed too.

    Ranged leeching skill is an awesome idea for us to gain some morale back. I would love to be able to pop one of those off every minute or two even.

    Currently the "improved" strength of earth skill, well, needs to be further improved. To long of an induction for the payout, same with press onward. If we get interrupted with either, we're screwed with a long cool down.

    Aggro dump/transfer skill.. I don't know much about this one since I don't group much, but it sounds like a great idea. There has been a time or two where I've been in the unfortunate spot of getting aggro and the others in my group not being able to pick it back up very quickly.

    I've recently just started playing around with traits since I've been reading the tips that other hunters have been putting out there on the forums. Pre-RoI I was full trapper traited and had no idea how much dps loss that I really had with that setup. The advantage to it then was I never had power problems ever, even soloing and mobs rarely ever touched me. Now it's a juggling act just to stay alive.

    Anyway, that pretty much sums up my concerns with hunters. I've always enjoyed playing one as my main, and I doubt that will change unless some other update kills us. Thanks for all the advice that the veteran hunters have provided!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d010000299eca/signature.png]Amaluk[/charsig]

  5. #205
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Smugo View Post
    I haven't been hit by more than 2-3k by a limrafin, so not sure what the issue is there.
    If you dont think your mitigations are a problem then stop whining about it. You are not making any sense - unless you're asking for a Tact miti nerf to light armor classes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Smugo View Post
    My complaint is completely relevant, my poorly geared RK is ably to max healing with ease and still be able to stack mits. It makes the most of it raid spot. My hunter is far better geared, but to make the most of it raid spot I drop my mits below my light armor RK.
    You're comparing apples and oranges now, especially since healing can be capped. You might as well compare Wardens and Hunters then, they're both medium armor yet Wardens usually have loads more mitigations because their roles are different. At least compare your hunter with a DPS RK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smugo View Post
    Burgs and hunters are both agility based classes, well geared burgs can easily have as much agility as well geared hunters. Hunters are medium armor, RKs are light. A well geared hunter should have more mitigation than a poorly geared RK.
    Medium armor ensures a higher armor count and thereby a good bit more physical mitigation. For some reason Turbine choose to give titles with mitigation to light armors to make up for some if it, and if anything, you'll see that get nerfed if they change anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smugo View Post
    Condescending can be defined as follows: Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority (google.com).

    When you repeatedly state that not only am I gearing incorrectly, but that you know how they ought to be geared, yes that seems condescending.
    Yeah, I'm sorry that I thought you actually had a reason to whine about your mitigations, clearly you're just whining because you see two different numbers on your toons when they have different roles.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 06 2012 at 10:36 AM.

  6. #206
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Medium armor ensures a higher armor count
    Not necessarily.

    You should stop fighting with smugo, he's right, you're wrong.

  7. #207
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Not necessarily.

    You should stop fighting with smugo, he's right, you're wrong.
    O rly? Feel free to show me 2 equal armor sets where the light armor set gives more armor than the medium armor set. In the example we're discussing we're even talking about a badly geared RK and a well geared hunter, so the medium armor should even be better than the light armor.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 06 2012 at 12:13 PM.

  8. #208
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    O rly? Feel free to show me 2 equal armor sets where the light armor set gives more armor than the medium armor set. In the example we're discussing we're even talking about a badly geared RK and a well geared hunter, so the medium armor should even be better than the light armor.
    He was responding to me, I said an RK can have more armor than a hunter.

    RK orthanc set, plus empathy, plus dragon cloak, plus martial training: 4796

    Hunter orthanc set, plus theodred crit crafted cloak: 4523

    There is no way a medium armor wearer should ever have less armor value than a light armor wearer at equal level.

    no.

    way.

    Just for the hell of it, I checked the champ Orthanc Set plus theodred: 5689

    Hunter orthanc, empathy, dragon: 5441

    Cannot match much less exceed a similarly geared heavy class with a weaker cloak and no empathy.

  9. #209
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    And a minstrel can do it even easier with a 920 armor value shield, which is 357 more armor than the 563 RK's get from Martial Training.

  10. #210
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    He was responding to me, I said an RK can have more armor than a hunter.
    He only quoted my post, I dont see how that would ever be a response aimed at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    RK orthanc set, plus empathy, plus dragon cloak, plus martial training: 4796

    Hunter orthanc set, plus theodred crit crafted cloak: 4523
    The RK has the advantage due to the Dragon cloak, thus he is better geared than the hunter. If they both wear the dragon cloak and thereby the same quality gear, the hunter will have more armor. Furthermore, choosing Empathy is a waste for most if not all classes as you will miss out on potential morale and/or pure mitigation traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    There is no way a medium armor wearer should ever have less armor value than a light armor wearer at equal level.

    no.

    way.
    Perhaps not, but if we ever see a fix to this, it will be to nerf light armor. The Wardens cried for improvements to medium armor (especially mitigation) and yet the devs chose to improve pretty much everything EXCEPT medium armor and mitigations. It seems adamant that medium armor is to be where it is now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Just for the hell of it, I checked the champ Orthanc Set plus theodred: 5689

    Hunter orthanc, empathy, dragon: 5441

    Cannot match much less exceed a similarly geared heavy class with a weaker cloak and no empathy.
    Well Honesty goes to what, 350 armor? That (+ the changes you suggest) would be enough to exceed the armour count if you really wanted to. Loyalty gives a bit as well. But then you'd of course be wasting even more virtues.

  11. #211
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    He only quoted my post, I dont see how that would ever be a response aimed at you.
    My initial post, before you started playing devils advocate with everyone in the thread.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c000000069736/01005/signature.png]Smugo[/charsig]

  12. #212
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Smugo View Post
    My initial post, before you started playing devils advocate with everyone in the thread.
    Right, disagreeing is being the devils advocate.

    I still dont get why you complain about your RK having more tact miti than your hunter when you think your hunter has enough mitigation.

  13. #213
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    My hunter doesn't have enough mitigation, that's the issue. My build is well balanced for nearly every fight in Orthanc, but in order to make best use of my spot, it means lowering mitigations below my RK, a class that should be rather squishy.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c000000069736/01005/signature.png]Smugo[/charsig]

  14. #214
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Smugo View Post
    My hunter doesn't have enough mitigation, that's the issue. My build is well balanced for nearly every fight in Orthanc, but in order to make best use of my spot, it means lowering mitigations below my RK, a class that should be rather squishy.
    As much as I would like more mitigation I really dont think it will happen. Wardens did all they could to have medium armor "fixed" and yet the devs did nothing- if the devs had any intention of fixing medium armor, the Warden update was the perfect moment. If anything, we will probably see a nerf to light armor.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 06 2012 at 05:38 PM.

  15. #215
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I think before changes to stances/skills/traits are made, hunter roles should be revisited and set with clear goals.

    Example: Red-solo line. Blue- group dps line. Yellow- group support line. or Red-dps / Blue-support / Yellow-solo.

    Because what we have now is a mess where nothing is clearly defined. All 3 lines allow hunter to solo very good, both red and blue are good for group dps, yellow is used in about 5% of group content. And that is just from PvE point of view, I am sure pvmp players have their own vision.

    I think trying to make difference between "burst" and "sustained" dps via 2 different trait lines leaves no space for further expansion of hunter as a class. It leaves only 1 line to be used for something else like a group support, solo survivability, pvmp viable, etc.

    Thus I think defining 1 line as clear dps pick would help. I don't care if it will be blue red or yellow, just make it very clear that only one of them is envisaged as THE dps line for group play. For example when you are inviting warden to tank, you know there is 99% probability he is using blue traits. Or when you invite LM to raid because the mobs hit really hard, you know he will be using yellow traits. I don't see what is the problem with hunter having only one trait line as main for group dps.

    That will leave 2 other lines for something else. For example group support (cc/debuffs/dps) and survivability (dps/mitigations/cc).

    As the lines are now, there is no way how to properly balance them for various scenarios you encounter in game.

    tl:dr Merge bowmaster and huntsman into one line. Tinker with 2 other lines to make hunters better suited to deal whatever the game throws at you.
    Farewell.

  16. #216
    NECRO post just to show how far back we have been looking for help
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

 

 
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