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  1. #151
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,876

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Your problem there is bleeds. If you're using CC, you are -NOT- using bleeds. That means no fire oil, no barbed arrow. If your distractnig Mez is breaking after a few seconds, a bleed is why.

    Not sure about how you're going with reistances and misses, but if I could not reliably lock three targets down completely, I would not have been able to solo the three-trolls, from the prospecting quest... and I did, and that's without a trapper bow, jsut traiting, so only one of those was locked with distracing shot... the second was traps and the kill target was bard-bounced.
    You're probably right - it would have been fire oil. Thanks very much for the tip. I spend most my time soloing in a dps build and apply it by reflex. U6 is a great update and one of the best things is finally having a use for trapper line. I should at least be able to handle 2 trolls now.

    Cheers.

  2. #152
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    232

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    I would think that 5 years in somebody would have the testicular fortitude to say that we need to forget everything we think we know about the class and just build a new one from the ground up.
    I would say it's less building a new class, and more bringing the class back to it's original design. Or in our case, since relatively little was done TO the hunter, undoing the damage changes to the game made without due consideration for their impact on hunters made. It's pretty obvious that while Turbine does some testing, it (like every other MMO company) does the bare minimum and certainly not enough to see the effects a change might have on a class that wasn't specifally targeted. Just look at what the medium armor change did to Wardens if you need an example. That was right up there with Blizzards "small changes to Beast Master hunters" when it came to completely screwing up a whole class while tying to fix a small problem. In short, we are less victims of direct nerf-batting than "nerf by omission". When a change was made to balance things for another class, no one at the meetings spoke up and said "hell no. Do you realize what that would do to hunters? You want that in, we're going to have to do give hunters something so they don't fall behind." It's a sadly common occurence in online games - there is also some class or classes that no one on the team who makes decisions plays seriously, and because of that they aren't thinking like that class when a change is proposed.

    Part of the fix is going to require a revamp of our skills and adding or improving new ones. As the OP pointed out, we're the only class that lacks an ability that when hit can swing a fight back in our direction. We are also the only class whose secondary role, even in it's weaker form, requires we dedicate both regular and legendary trait slots to it before it becomes marginally useful. Survivability is the same - we have to spend 1/3 of our Legendary slots and dedicate LI points to get our own self-heals, one of which is on a painfully slow induction and the other strictly reactionary (and requires we be in melee range facing the target to use). Neither of which is remotely practical for a hunter to use. Threat might be acceptable - except that Champions and Rune Keepers don't have to hold back on their damage because they have Ebbing Ire and Calming Verse to save their hides without having to touch traits. We have... a -threat book (that we can't use without severly harming our ability to sustain damage), a stance with -threat and a threat-reduction shot (that is clunky as hell to use when we need to actually shed threat), and a single temporary threat drop that is every 3 minutes (if one devotes a major legacy and the points to cap it) which is maybe once or twice a fight. Of course I'm sure someone with a bigger mouth than a brain will say "well TRAIT to solve those problems newb". Something that just points out what I'm thinking is one of the biggest things keeping us where we are. People assuming hunters have extra trait slots.

    There was a joke in World of Warcraft at one point that the only hunters that were actually functional were "41/41/41 spec" (the absolute best any class could do was 41/ 20). Here it seems as if the developers and non-hunters think every hunter is 5R/ 5Y/ 5R with Cool Burn, Explosive Arrow, and Improved Fleetness slotted along with Press Onward, Rain of Thorns, Bards, and Bow of the Righteous. In short every balance decision being made is done with the assumption that the hunter already is traited to optimize THAT particular area, but no one at Turbine has realized that we can optimize ONE area but not all of them at the same time. The same goes for people who say hunters aren't at a severe disadvantage - they think "well a hunter can trait THIS and not have this problem", competely forgeting (or ignoring) that by traiting that way another problem (generally damage going from acceptable to sub-par) rears up.

    Since I'm not going to complain about something without trying to do something about it (unlike some others), here is a quick list of fixes that I came up with in the last 30 minutes.

    1) New skill (NOT for Riders- as in it's a basic skill stuffed somewhere in the 1-50 mess): Sure Footed: Hunters are experts at covering the most difficult ground while evading hazards at full speed in pursuit of their prey. While active the hunter has a +25% bonus to dodge and can not be snared, rooted, or knocked down. Lasts 10 seconds.
    Not nearly as powerful as some abilities, but damn better than the "sit and take it" we do now.

    2) Drop the cooldown on Rain of Thorns from 3 minutes to 1 minute and instead of dropping the resist rate (really, just whose dumb idea was THAT) let the ToF line decrease the cooldown to 30 seconds. LMs get a mass-root every 10 seconds as part of their basic skills. Let hunters have our one AoE crowd-control that costs 1/3 of our Legendary trait slots for more than once ever other fight and maybe we'll be a bit more useful in that role.

    3) Give up the horse and remove the induction from Press Onward.
    Face it Turbine, no one is going to bother carrying it for more than very gimmicky fights (ie Draigoich) in it's current state. Why? Because in the seconds it takes for the induction to clear we will stunned, dazed, punted, or just outright killed and if it does go off, unless we're completely ignored we're going to take as much if not more damage trying to use it than it recovers. Right now it's still little more than a poor mans version of Strength of Morale and a power potion, one that is a pain in the rear to use.

    4) Improve Trapper of Foes. Ever notice that when hunters talk about which trait line is the most effective, it's always the Bow Master or Huntsman lines? That right there says something - 1/3 of the classes entire traits are ignored by everyone but a handful of diehards (who I bet regularly retrait for serious grouping). You took a few baby steps, but what was needed to bring the lines head above water was giant leaps. It's time to make those leaps.

    A) Consolidate Combat Traps, Spring Loaded Traps, and Sturdy Traps into one trait (Improved Traps). Fill the two open slots with B and C below.
    B) Envenomed Weapons: All the hunters damage over time effects are substantially increased in effect and increase the damage done to the target by 5% while one such effect is present.
    I would have said reduces damage done by, but let's face reality - unless the reduction is huge (ala Fire Lore's -30%) most groups won't consider it worth the lost damage. But given the "more deps more deps" obsession people have, a 5% increase in damage that doesn't require the hunter get into melee (and "make more work for the healers") is going to be very much in demand.
    C) Hunter's Lore: Cure Poison now effects the hunters entire fellowship with a 10 second (5 second for 4/x ToF) cooldown. The hunter gains a bonus to resistance against poison and disease effects.
    We would finally get the ability to make our one "group aid" skill practical without having to go 4 deep into a line that currently has limited use. Not like it would help much though given the rather obvous "f you" that is Roots of Fangorn. Level 80 poison that does 2k every 2 seconds for 6 seconds. Sounds like a perfect reason for a group to bring a hunter along. Nope - some pissant developer with a vendetta decided to make that poison uncurable. Nothing like seeing the first instance we might find that ability useful in since North Cotton Farms get slapped down with a completely artifical barrier. A very blatent one too since Turbine didn't even bother to make it level 81 to hide the "uncurable" flag.
    D) Drop the cooldown on Distracting Shot to 30 seconds and have Explosive shot add 20 seconds to the duration as well as 5 seconds to the duration of fears, and 10 seconds to roots.
    I know it's a crazy idea that the capstone trait in the hunters CC-focused line should improve ALL the hunters major crowd control abilities.

    5) Flip the order of Blindside, make it an immediate skill, and give it a range of 20 meters. It lacks the induction-slow of Addle and is far less available than Clobber, but at least this way hunters won't be finding themselves trying to run into melee range to interrupt a caster or stuck when a cast starts mid-induction with something else qued up. In short - let us interrupt at our prefered range LIKE EVERY OTHER DAMN CLASS. That or make champions, guardians, and burglars run out 20 meters to use their interrupts and make minstrels and rune keepers run into melee to use theirs, oh and make their skill wait on the cue too. I bet then you would understand just how much of a pain in the rear it is to be yelled at for not interrupting a mobs induction when you're 20 meters back trying to dodge AOE since the healers are too prissy to "waste heals on a hunter in melee".

    6) Threat control. We need it. We need it to be available WHEN it's needed, without having to work around a clunky que and
    A) Make changings stances an immediate action that clears the que.
    That should be basic. Far too many times as a hunter I've had an unexpected string of crits and tried to change to Endurance to dump some threat, only to be stuck waiting for the action que to change so that I can que up a stance chance once whatever induction I had qued before the crits is done. Thats seconds that a squishy class doesn't have; Burglars don't have to que up HiPS and champions don't worry about waiting on more than Ebbing Ire's cooldown (and they have far more survival tools). Why are hunters hobbled with that wait?
    B) Consolidate our -threat legacies. Or even better, put a basic -10% threat onto our damn LI's and have the legacy (as in ONE) increase it.
    They're a great idea. Except that with 2 power-reduction legacies as must-haves and 2 critical magnitude legacies almost required to just keep pace in DPS, we don't have the room or points to for 2 more legacies. It's even more of a slap to the face that the non-LI bows we don't use because we're balanced around the Legendary ones, all have threat reduction built into them. The two classes who do use them don't care how much threat they do at range, or even want more threat. Doesn't that seem a little.... stupid?
    C) At the end of the effect have Beneath Care/ Notice dump a fixed precentage of the hunters threat completely. Inaddition to affecting the cooldown on Heart Seeker, have it lower the cooldown of Beneath Care/ Notice. Bard the Bowman was able to take aim as Smaug the Golden in part because Smaug considered a lone human beneath his notice until it was too late.
    When my Minstrel gets too much threat she can hit Song of Soothing and the mobs (as in more than one) will go for whoever is next on their list and can do that every 30 seconds. When traited she doesn't even need the damn induction. If that doesn't work there is always the option of Play Dead and the mobs go for the next highest person and she can do that every 5 minutes (before spending LI points). And she also has threat-reduction items and talents as well.

    7) Here is the real kicker. After you bump up our crowd control abilities, add in a bonus so that the more mobs attacking a character the more damage they do and the weaker the players defenses are. Maybe if "just have the tank gather them up and mindlessly AE them down" wasn't the always the "best" option because it gets the tank killed quickly, people would actually want classes that can use crowd control.
    Hunters, Lore Masters, and Burglars might actually be wanted with something like this in place. Instead of it being "1 tank, healer, as many AOE dps as we can cram in and still make room for a buff bot and/ or power dispenser" people might actually have to learn about working as a group again. That would be... scary. People learning to not hit anthing in range, tanks learning to judge just how many mobs they can handle at once. The world would end if that happened.

  3. #153

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilTreerat View Post
    I would say it's less building a new class, and more bringing the class back to it's original design. Or in our case, since relatively little was done TO the hunter, undoing the damage changes to the game made without due consideration for their impact on hunters made. It's pretty obvious that while Turbine does some testing, it (like every other MMO company) does the bare minimum and certainly not enough to see the effects a change might have on a class that wasn't specifally targeted. Just look at what the medium armor change did to Wardens if you need an example. That was right up there with Blizzards "small changes to Beast Master hunters" when it came to completely screwing up a whole class while tying to fix a small problem. In short, we are less victims of direct nerf-batting than "nerf by omission". When a change was made to balance things for another class, no one at the meetings spoke up and said "hell no. Do you realize what that would do to hunters? You want that in, we're going to have to do give hunters something so they don't fall behind." It's a sadly common occurence in online games - there is also some class or classes that no one on the team who makes decisions plays seriously, and because of that they aren't thinking like that class when a change is proposed.

    Part of the fix is going to require a revamp of our skills and adding or improving new ones. As the OP pointed out, we're the only class that lacks an ability that when hit can swing a fight back in our direction. We are also the only class whose secondary role, even in it's weaker form, requires we dedicate both regular and legendary trait slots to it before it becomes marginally useful. Survivability is the same - we have to spend 1/3 of our Legendary slots and dedicate LI points to get our own self-heals, one of which is on a painfully slow induction and the other strictly reactionary (and requires we be in melee range facing the target to use). Neither of which is remotely practical for a hunter to use. Threat might be acceptable - except that Champions and Rune Keepers don't have to hold back on their damage because they have Ebbing Ire and Calming Verse to save their hides without having to touch traits. We have... a -threat book (that we can't use without severly harming our ability to sustain damage), a stance with -threat and a threat-reduction shot (that is clunky as hell to use when we need to actually shed threat), and a single temporary threat drop that is every 3 minutes (if one devotes a major legacy and the points to cap it) which is maybe once or twice a fight. Of course I'm sure someone with a bigger mouth than a brain will say "well TRAIT to solve those problems newb". Something that just points out what I'm thinking is one of the biggest things keeping us where we are. People assuming hunters have extra trait slots.

    There was a joke in World of Warcraft at one point that the only hunters that were actually functional were "41/41/41 spec" (the absolute best any class could do was 41/ 20). Here it seems as if the developers and non-hunters think every hunter is 5R/ 5Y/ 5R with Cool Burn, Explosive Arrow, and Improved Fleetness slotted along with Press Onward, Rain of Thorns, Bards, and Bow of the Righteous. In short every balance decision being made is done with the assumption that the hunter already is traited to optimize THAT particular area, but no one at Turbine has realized that we can optimize ONE area but not all of them at the same time. The same goes for people who say hunters aren't at a severe disadvantage - they think "well a hunter can trait THIS and not have this problem", competely forgeting (or ignoring) that by traiting that way another problem (generally damage going from acceptable to sub-par) rears up.

    Since I'm not going to complain about something without trying to do something about it (unlike some others), here is a quick list of fixes that I came up with in the last 30 minutes.

    1) New skill (NOT for Riders- as in it's a basic skill stuffed somewhere in the 1-50 mess): Sure Footed: Hunters are experts at covering the most difficult ground while evading hazards at full speed in pursuit of their prey. While active the hunter has a +25% bonus to dodge and can not be snared, rooted, or knocked down. Lasts 10 seconds.
    Not nearly as powerful as some abilities, but damn better than the "sit and take it" we do now.

    2) Drop the cooldown on Rain of Thorns from 3 minutes to 1 minute and instead of dropping the resist rate (really, just whose dumb idea was THAT) let the ToF line decrease the cooldown to 30 seconds. LMs get a mass-root every 10 seconds as part of their basic skills. Let hunters have our one AoE crowd-control that costs 1/3 of our Legendary trait slots for more than once ever other fight and maybe we'll be a bit more useful in that role.

    3) Give up the horse and remove the induction from Press Onward.
    Face it Turbine, no one is going to bother carrying it for more than very gimmicky fights (ie Draigoich) in it's current state. Why? Because in the seconds it takes for the induction to clear we will stunned, dazed, punted, or just outright killed and if it does go off, unless we're completely ignored we're going to take as much if not more damage trying to use it than it recovers. Right now it's still little more than a poor mans version of Strength of Morale and a power potion, one that is a pain in the rear to use.

    4) Improve Trapper of Foes. Ever notice that when hunters talk about which trait line is the most effective, it's always the Bow Master or Huntsman lines? That right there says something - 1/3 of the classes entire traits are ignored by everyone but a handful of diehards (who I bet regularly retrait for serious grouping). You took a few baby steps, but what was needed to bring the lines head above water was giant leaps. It's time to make those leaps.

    A) Consolidate Combat Traps, Spring Loaded Traps, and Sturdy Traps into one trait (Improved Traps). Fill the two open slots with B and C below.
    B) Envenomed Weapons: All the hunters damage over time effects are substantially increased in effect and increase the damage done to the target by 5% while one such effect is present.
    I would have said reduces damage done by, but let's face reality - unless the reduction is huge (ala Fire Lore's -30%) most groups won't consider it worth the lost damage. But given the "more deps more deps" obsession people have, a 5% increase in damage that doesn't require the hunter get into melee (and "make more work for the healers") is going to be very much in demand.
    C) Hunter's Lore: Cure Poison now effects the hunters entire fellowship with a 10 second (5 second for 4/x ToF) cooldown. The hunter gains a bonus to resistance against poison and disease effects.
    We would finally get the ability to make our one "group aid" skill practical without having to go 4 deep into a line that currently has limited use. Not like it would help much though given the rather obvous "f you" that is Roots of Fangorn. Level 80 poison that does 2k every 2 seconds for 6 seconds. Sounds like a perfect reason for a group to bring a hunter along. Nope - some pissant developer with a vendetta decided to make that poison uncurable. Nothing like seeing the first instance we might find that ability useful in since North Cotton Farms get slapped down with a completely artifical barrier. A very blatent one too since Turbine didn't even bother to make it level 81 to hide the "uncurable" flag.
    D) Drop the cooldown on Distracting Shot to 30 seconds and have Explosive shot add 20 seconds to the duration as well as 5 seconds to the duration of fears, and 10 seconds to roots.
    I know it's a crazy idea that the capstone trait in the hunters CC-focused line should improve ALL the hunters major crowd control abilities.

    5) Flip the order of Blindside, make it an immediate skill, and give it a range of 20 meters. It lacks the induction-slow of Addle and is far less available than Clobber, but at least this way hunters won't be finding themselves trying to run into melee range to interrupt a caster or stuck when a cast starts mid-induction with something else qued up. In short - let us interrupt at our prefered range LIKE EVERY OTHER DAMN CLASS. That or make champions, guardians, and burglars run out 20 meters to use their interrupts and make minstrels and rune keepers run into melee to use theirs, oh and make their skill wait on the cue too. I bet then you would understand just how much of a pain in the rear it is to be yelled at for not interrupting a mobs induction when you're 20 meters back trying to dodge AOE since the healers are too prissy to "waste heals on a hunter in melee".

    6) Threat control. We need it. We need it to be available WHEN it's needed, without having to work around a clunky que and
    A) Make changings stances an immediate action that clears the que.
    That should be basic. Far too many times as a hunter I've had an unexpected string of crits and tried to change to Endurance to dump some threat, only to be stuck waiting for the action que to change so that I can que up a stance chance once whatever induction I had qued before the crits is done. Thats seconds that a squishy class doesn't have; Burglars don't have to que up HiPS and champions don't worry about waiting on more than Ebbing Ire's cooldown (and they have far more survival tools). Why are hunters hobbled with that wait?
    B) Consolidate our -threat legacies. Or even better, put a basic -10% threat onto our damn LI's and have the legacy (as in ONE) increase it.
    They're a great idea. Except that with 2 power-reduction legacies as must-haves and 2 critical magnitude legacies almost required to just keep pace in DPS, we don't have the room or points to for 2 more legacies. It's even more of a slap to the face that the non-LI bows we don't use because we're balanced around the Legendary ones, all have threat reduction built into them. The two classes who do use them don't care how much threat they do at range, or even want more threat. Doesn't that seem a little.... stupid?
    C) At the end of the effect have Beneath Care/ Notice dump a fixed precentage of the hunters threat completely. Inaddition to affecting the cooldown on Heart Seeker, have it lower the cooldown of Beneath Care/ Notice. Bard the Bowman was able to take aim as Smaug the Golden in part because Smaug considered a lone human beneath his notice until it was too late.
    When my Minstrel gets too much threat she can hit Song of Soothing and the mobs (as in more than one) will go for whoever is next on their list and can do that every 30 seconds. When traited she doesn't even need the damn induction. If that doesn't work there is always the option of Play Dead and the mobs go for the next highest person and she can do that every 5 minutes (before spending LI points). And she also has threat-reduction items and talents as well.

    7) Here is the real kicker. After you bump up our crowd control abilities, add in a bonus so that the more mobs attacking a character the more damage they do and the weaker the players defenses are. Maybe if "just have the tank gather them up and mindlessly AE them down" wasn't the always the "best" option because it gets the tank killed quickly, people would actually want classes that can use crowd control.
    Hunters, Lore Masters, and Burglars might actually be wanted with something like this in place. Instead of it being "1 tank, healer, as many AOE dps as we can cram in and still make room for a buff bot and/ or power dispenser" people might actually have to learn about working as a group again. That would be... scary. People learning to not hit anthing in range, tanks learning to judge just how many mobs they can handle at once. The world would end if that happened.
    You, sir, get rep for pointing out things that I have always considered unnecessary nuisances/problems with essential parts of the hunter. Now if only the majority of the hunter community could do this more often instead of "I HATE THIS I DIED
    TODAY I DEMAND AN INSTA HEAL." maybe we'd be getting somewhere if everyone who was discontented for the right reasons rationalized a bit on forums instead of just raging and giving those with real solutions to real issues a bad rap.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  4. #154
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the space between worlds, thinking, exploring, learning, dreaming, creating and always passing on
    Posts
    1,131

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Hey evil, good post, I like most of what you say, so, in hte interst of fair discussion, I want ot hash some of this out with you, if that's ok; A lot of what you say is good, but it needs consideration for other impacts on other areas.

    In particular, we'd need to dsicuss the specifics of how what you'd like relates to what we can currently do, and the implications for optimisng from that...

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilTreerat View Post
    Part of the fix is going to require a revamp of our skills and adding or improving new ones. As the OP pointed out, we're the only class that lacks an ability that when hit can swing a fight back in our direction. We are also the only class whose secondary role, even in it's weaker form, requires we dedicate both regular and legendary trait slots to it before it becomes marginally useful. Survivability is the same - we have to spend 1/3 of our Legendary slots and dedicate LI points to get our own self-heals, one of which is on a painfully slow induction and the other strictly reactionary (and requires we be in melee range facing the target to use). Neither of which is remotely practical for a hunter to use. Threat might be acceptable - except that Champions and Rune Keepers don't have to hold back on their damage because they have Ebbing Ire and Calming Verse to save their hides without having to touch traits. We have... a -threat book (that we can't use without severly harming our ability to sustain damage), a stance with -threat and a threat-reduction shot (that is clunky as hell to use when we need to actually shed threat), and a single temporary threat drop that is every 3 minutes (if one devotes a major legacy and the points to cap it) which is maybe once or twice a fight.
    The large mouth person does have a point, in a small way; we can currently go into a fight with -20% damage threat, before legacies, if we use END, and slot a single trit, stealthy shot (which does a flat -10% threat now). I don't know off the top of my head how high the threat legacies go, but their magnitude is already on top of that base -20% potential...

    A lot of hunters won't want to run in END and slot SS, true... but the fact is, if you can still push your output to the threat threshold of the fight traited that way, then you are, ultimately, optimising more DPS than someone who traits for what is a more DPS optimal setup, but has to stick at the threat barrier same as you.

    True that we can only trait one way at a time, and a lot of out current stuff assumes triating to optimise what it's for alrady... that IS annoying, no argument there... But currently, going full trapper sets you up to fill a role.. and that role is -not- DPS... and you can dothat job -Really- well, if you think like you need ot to fill that role. One of the problems is that we have three lines, and two of htem are about maxing our output in differnt ways... so people automatically feel that even traited the third way, we should still be good dps... I simply don't thinkhtat's true... a full trapper hunter shouldn't be treated like DPS, beucase they're not. More improvements to the line, though, would of course be welcome. More on that in a minute.


    1) New skill (NOT for Riders- as in it's a basic skill stuffed somewhere in the 1-50 mess): Sure Footed: Hunters are experts at covering the most difficult ground while evading hazards at full speed in pursuit of their prey. While active the hunter has a +25% bonus to dodge and can not be snared, rooted, or knocked down. Lasts 10 seconds.
    I like this. Normally, I'd say a 10 seocnds state immunity is a bit strong, however, thre are already other examples of it; LMs can keep something similar up on the whole groups permaently if they try, and I belive champs also have a similar ability, though it's usually used offensively, rather than defensively.

    2) Drop the cooldown on Rain of Thorns from 3 minutes to 1 minute and instead of dropping the resist rate (really, just whose dumb idea was THAT) let the ToF line decrease the cooldown to 30 seconds. LMs get a mass-root every 10 seconds as part of their basic skills. Let hunters have our one AoE crowd-control that costs 1/3 of our Legendary trait slots for more than once ever other fight and maybe we'll be a bit more useful in that role.
    The LM one comes with a potent caveat, in that it's an on-expiration root you're talking about, and the aplication of it can re-break a previous root, so it's risky for locking. I'd think of RoT more along the lines of herb Lore, for LMs, and as such I don't think it's cooldown should be any lower than that (equal to, certainly).... that siad, considering we are talking about using a legendary slot for it... maybe turbine might find it acceptable to have it 30/1m, if supported by a line bonus or trait. I'd LIKE to have a completely cyclic ten target root, but Turbine won't give us that without a powerful catch-clause to go with it.

    How about this: Cooldown of RoT baselines for 2:30. A trapper trait would take off one minute, and say, the 4th line bonus would take off a minute more... Or, the more Turbine-likely method, would be that the 4th linebonus would take off a minute, and a legacy would max out at taking off another minute.

    This way you would need to be completely invested as a CCer to have your 10-target cyclic root... but it would be -doable-

    3) Give up the horse and remove the induction from Press Onward.
    Truth is, the way it acts right now, it's more useful forhte power than the healing, since if your'e in a position to use it, and you desperately need the healing, then, chances are, if you're NOT dead by the time it goes off, then you will, inhtat time, have already RECEIVED the healing you need form a helaer in group.

    I actually don't consider press onward a group skill; I consider it a solo legendary... in the situation where you have the power to create the window to use it properly.... that said, as a legendary skill, I have no objection to it being made more unilaterally useful, and removing hte induction, or at elast cutting it to, say, 0.5, would be a good start.


    4) Improve Trapper of Foes. Ever notice that when hunters talk about which trait line is the most effective, it's always the Bow Master or Huntsman lines? That right there says something - 1/3 of the classes entire traits are ignored by everyone but a handful of diehards (who I bet regularly retrait for serious grouping). You took a few baby steps, but what was needed to bring the lines head above water was giant leaps. It's time to make those leaps.
    This is the part I agree with the least; I think the community and the players are the biggest problem. Trapper line IS useful and effective now. It's pretty good.... but the majority of players still don't TRUST us to be CC, and don't -Believe- that we are as competant and capable as any other main CCer (and moreso, I'd argue, in many cases), if we have invested our setup as CC.

    This is becuase, for the longest time, it WAS broken and useless... now I can use it to solo three limlight trolls comfortably, and that's far from bad. That said, a lot of what you say is quite valid, so...

    A) Consolidate Combat Traps, Spring Loaded Traps, and Sturdy Traps into one trait (Improved Traps).
    Agreed This would be nice. What I actually want to see, however, is more versatility and difference in our traps... I'd like to see hunters having acess to a variety of different situationally useful trapping techniques and methods, when investing in trapper... so I have other ideas for the replacement line traits.

    C) Hunter's Lore: Cure Poison now effects the hunters entire fellowship with a 10 second (5 second for 4/x ToF) cooldown. The hunter gains a bonus to resistance against poison and disease effects.
    Something would need to be done to the line bonus, in this case. also, I know that, in most cases, I wouldn't want to give up my non-cooldown purge for a group one on a cooldown. Having htat effect as a trait -realted effect lets us choose currently... so a way would need to be made to work this so that we wouldn't "lose" any aspect of our current abilities.

    D) Drop the cooldown on Distracting Shot to 30 seconds and have Explosive shot add 20 seconds to the duration as well as 5 seconds to the duration of fears, and 10 seconds to roots.
    I know it's a crazy idea that the capstone trait in the hunters CC-focused line should improve ALL the hunters major crowd control abilities.
    Currently our distracting shot can be 15/30... i.e. a double perma-mez. To do this, you'd be moving most of the effect of explosive arrow into a single trait, which is fine, and replacing it with some additiaonl CC extension in our other areas... It would meanthat the legendary trapper capstone would go from -150secs cool on Ds and +20 secs duration, to +20secs duration on DS, +5 fears and +10 Roots.

    I would argue that the principle is sound, defintiely, but it seems almsot counter productive to extend our roots; their timing synergy alreayd works well (especialyl with the change to RoT you suggest) and adding 10 seconds wouldn't be so useful to them... Giving us +10 on fears though, that would be particularly useful.

    How about, the Trapper capstone becomes something akin to Masterful Trapper, gives duration to DS as it currently does, 10 seconds to fears (cumulative with Strong Intimidate; to bring Bard's out to a 30/30, and CotP to an almost half-time bounce similar to "basic" bard's, if you slot both), and perhaps, to help it maintain its legendary effect, a useful hit of CC resist penetration, to apply to all our CC skills, not just one or another?

    5) Flip the order of Blindside, make it an immediate skill, and give it a range of 20 meters. It lacks the induction-slow of Addle and is far less available than Clobber, but at least this way hunters won't be finding themselves trying to run into melee range to interrupt a caster or stuck when a cast starts mid-induction with something else qued up. In short - let us interrupt at our prefered range
    This is tricky.... I agree, I'm not happy with our current interruping. I like that blindside is one, and I like the concept and ideology contained in blindside... and I do agree that it desperately -Needs- to be an immedieate... however, I Would like to have an interrupt at our preferred range, and they've alreayd said clearly that they aren't going to give us another one.

    I cannot, however, agree with simply making Blindside a 20m skill... that doesn't sit will with me.

    What I'd recommend would be this, instead: remove the interrupt component from Blindside, and put it into Distracting Shot. Make distracting shot immediate... immediate skills are simply ones that jump the command queue and cancle anything else ahead of it in process... they did that with RoT, as it's treated as our emergency root currently... I see no reason why Distracting shot shouldn't be our interrupt and act in the same way... LMs currently have this set-up; their Blinding Flash is also their interrupt skill, on things that are immune to the daze component.

    The problem is, hunters who do nothing at all to their DS will still have the 3 minute deal... not satisfactory. Perhaps this could be alleviated by improving basic DS's cooldown and modifying the traits that effect it, to give the same cyclic power for someone dedicated t trapper, similar limited usefulness to someone not, but with more interrupt power by frequency. Somethign to think on.

    Perhaps if it's base cool was brought down to a minute flat, and its base duration cut to 5, similar to Dazing blow. To balance that, the Legendary capstone would add 25 not 20 seconds to DS duration, to achieve the same mez power, and between the other cooldown cuts, one would be 30 and one would be 15.

    So that would leave us with a Basic DS, interrupt on a one minute cool, 5 second daze... compared to its current basic whihc is 3 minute cool and 10 seconds daze... technically that's making it more powerful, but only by a hair, and some would disagree even with that.

    The capstone, then would hold a booster of 25 seconds to DS, a booster of 10 seconds to fears, and CC resist penetration. A trait replacing consolidated trap ones would take 30 seconds off the 1 minute cooldown of DS. The current strong intimidate trait would remain, to boost fearing potential.

    The breakdown would look like this:

    A Non-trapper hunter with no traits in the line and no legacies would then have this capability for CC:

    Distracing shot: 5 second daze, 1 minute cooldown. Also acts as an interrupt on immune targets.
    CotP: 10 second fear (restricted), 1 minute cooldown.
    Dazing Blow: 5 second daze (melee), 1 minute cooldown.
    One Pre-combat Trap: 30 second Root, cooldown irrelevant as non-combat only.
    (IF SLOTTED) Bard's Arrow: 15 second fear, 30 second cooldown. (IF SLOTTED)
    (IF SLOTTED) Rain of Thorns: 30 second Root, AoE base 5 (legacy to 10), 2:30 cooldown. (IF SLOTTED)

    This would be, in reality, a very minor amount of emergency only CC, since the hunter would be geared towards optimal damage output, and would CC only as a breathing space reaction. It would be highly limited, on par with a Minstrel's emergency CC capabilities.

    Comparatively, a fully dedicated Trapper hunter, devoted to being your groups primary CCer, could boast this:

    Distracting Shot: 30 second daze, 15 second cooldown. Acts as an interrupt on immune targets.
    Bard's Arrow: 30 second fear, 30 second cooldown.
    Rain of Thorns: 30 scond Root, AoE base 5 (legacy to 10), 30 second cooldown.
    Combat Traps: 30 second Root, 30 second cooldown.
    CotP: 20 second fear (restricted), 1 minute cooldown.
    Dazing Blow: 5 second Daze (melee), 1 minute Cooldown.

    This, for a hunter prepared to dedicate their traiting fully for CC and filling that role, would be easily the equal of any other Primary CCer, and well worthy or wearing that role-title comfortably, albiet, needing a cerain amount more care and precision of use to get the most out of.

    Thoughts?


    6) Threat control. We need it.

    A) Make changings stances an immediate action that clears the que.

    That should be basic. Far too many times as a hunter I've had an unexpected string of crits and tried to change to Endurance to dump some threat, only to be stuck waiting for the action que to change so that I can que up a stance chance once whatever induction I had qued before the crits is done. Thats seconds that a squishy class doesn't have; Burglars don't have to que up HiPS and champions don't worry about waiting on more than Ebbing Ire's cooldown (and they have far more survival tools). Why are hunters hobbled with that wait?
    I agree with this, but in more general terms: swapping stance should be an immediate action, for everyone, not jsut for hunters: trust me, other classes with stances suffer this pain too. Guards who utilise the jumping betweent threat and another stance, for the purposes of swapping nasty targets also have this problem; having to wait the queue for hte stnace change to go through, before doing their engage, for example... huh... the most prominent example was again a threat-related issue. Fancy that.

    B) Consolidate our -threat legacies. Or even better, put a basic -10% threat onto our damn LI's and have the legacy (as in ONE) increase it.

    They're a great idea. Except that with 2 power-reduction legacies as must-haves and 2 critical magnitude legacies almost required to just keep pace in DPS, we don't have the room or points to for 2 more legacies. It's even more of a slap to the face that the non-LI bows we don't use because we're balanced around the Legendary ones, all have threat reduction built into them. The two classes who do use them don't care how much threat they do at range, or even want more threat. Doesn't that seem a little.... stupid?
    Again, I agree... the split between focus and induction skills seems largely arbitrary, and serving of the sole purpose ot fill up our weapons. I think it's really to disguise the fact that we don't actualyl HAVE amyn useful legacies on our weapons currently, and if they consolidated the six into three, it would become far too visible the lack of anything else useful.

    I perosnally do not use the -power legacies. I don't need them, nad I don't struggle for power unless the fight goes on for more than 10 minutes... at which point I take a potion.... However, I know that other hunters do find power consumption to be a major issue which those legacies alleviates... and the split is pointless, except to take up space.

    Keeping in mind also, however, the -threat legacies only actually function AT ALL when you are in Endurance stance. This has been confirmed by a dev as WaI, in fact, so it seems the actual best way to consolidate those legacies wold be to merge them into an "Endurance Stance threat decrease" legacy, that ranked an additional 10%, to bring legacied endurance up to 20%.

    That said, I'm sure many want the legacies to affect all stances all the time. I don't think they'll give that to us, alas, but a simple "Damage Threat Reduction" legacy, rankable to, say 5% if it was to work across all stances, might be something they'd concede us.

    C) At the end of the effect have Beneath Care/ Notice dump a fixed precentage of the hunters threat completely. Inaddition to affecting the cooldown on Heart Seeker, have it lower the cooldown of Beneath Care/ Notice. Bard the Bowman was able to take aim as Smaug the Golden in part because Smaug considered a lone human beneath his notice until it was too late.
    RKs have a healing skill which, by its special effect, generates no threat at all. BC for us is a temporary reduction of our perceived threat, which doens't effect our actual thrat at all, but, for hte longest time (since it has existed in fact), while you ar eunder its effects you damage dealt generates threat at that -60% as well. This has been bugged by hunters frequently, those who noticed it and felt obliged to... but the Devs have never done anyhting about ti, -ever- which leads me to suspect that it may in fact be entirely intentional as part of the skill's effect... so how about this: make it clearer, and boost it a bit...

    BC has never actually shed threat, but for a while intelligent hunters have been using it pre-emptively to mitigate the generation of large burn spikes. I think this is a GOOD thing, so I'd like to propose that BC be converted into a temporary threat null... I.e., rather than reducing your perceived threat and making you generate at a lower rate, remove the perception reduction altogether and make it so that, while under the effects of BC, you generate -NO- damage threat... make that's its clear and apparent function, so that hunters must use if premptively and cleverly to actually get good use out of it... to allow us to perform at our sheer damage optimmum for a short amount fo time wihtout getting killed for our efforts... yet in away that requires a little bit of fore thought to do.

    Like this, it cannot work as an emergency "Zomg I pulled threat help me" skill.... BUT it can very defintely allow you to push on damage in excess of hte normal threat threshold wihtout gettign killed... it's a threat management tool, when proposed like this, that helps you to not pull in the first palce, without damaging your ability to pull of someone else in a different emergency (such as off a minnie) if you need to.

    7) Here is the real kicker. After you bump up our crowd control abilities, add in a bonus so that the more mobs attacking a character the more damage they do and the weaker the players defenses are. Maybe if "just have the tank gather them up and mindlessly AE them down" wasn't the always the "best" option because it gets the tank killed quickly, people would actually want classes that can use crowd control.
    Actually, here, thre's already quite a bit of that sort of thing in play, in most recent group and raid content. Take the stacking fenzy buff of the Uruks in Shadow-wing T2, for example... any more than three on one tank, and you're getting into some seriously painful territory. We DO use Cc quite a bit in the current Raid.. almost as much as we are able to use, in fact, and players have had to get more clever about what they're using where, and when, while dealing with adaptation as well.

    I personally think that there has actually been relatively little pure tank and zergball in the most recent content, and I like that trend.

    Anyhow, sorry to go on for so long, but your post was interesting, and I wanted to discuss it openly. Interested in hearing thoughts back.

    -Niara
    Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain.
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  5. #155
    Join Date
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    The large mouth person does have a point, in a small way; we can currently go into a fight with -20% damage threat, before legacies, if we use END, and slot a single trit, stealthy shot (which does a flat -10% threat now). I don't know off the top of my head how high the threat legacies go, but their magnitude is already on top of that base -20% potential...

    A lot of hunters won't want to run in END and slot SS, true... but the fact is, if you can still push your output to the threat threshold of the fight traited that way, then you are, ultimately, optimising more DPS than someone who traits for what is a more DPS optimal setup, but has to stick at the threat barrier same as you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    BC has never actually shed threat, but for a while intelligent hunters have been using it pre-emptively to mitigate the generation of large burn spikes. I think this is a GOOD thing, so I'd like to propose that BC be converted into a temporary threat null... I.e., rather than reducing your perceived threat and making you generate at a lower rate, remove the perception reduction altogether and make it so that, while under the effects of BC, you generate -NO- damage threat... make that's its clear and apparent function, so that hunters must use if premptively and cleverly to actually get good use out of it... to allow us to perform at our sheer damage optimmum for a short amount fo time wihtout getting killed for our efforts... yet in away that requires a little bit of fore thought to do.
    I like your BN/BC idea... but only if we'd get some sort of 'WHELP! Pulled aggro!! Boss on me!!' emergency skill for it in return (that bubble everyone's talking about? maybe with a minor perceived threat effect?). Otherwise it should be a new skill. My biggest gripe with our threat management is that it's all passive, look at your list. Changing BC into a pro-active skill would essentially be replacing our single useful active threat management skill with another and doesn't improve our options for threat management. Also I believe that since threat is an unknown variable, pulling aggro once or twice in a fight should not mean an inevitable death... there should be something you can do to respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    True that we can only trait one way at a time, and a lot of out current stuff assumes triating to optimise what it's for alrady... that IS annoying, no argument there... But currently, going full trapper sets you up to fill a role.. and that role is -not- DPS... and you can dothat job -Really- well, if you think like you need ot to fill that role. One of the problems is that we have three lines, and two of htem are about maxing our output in differnt ways... so people automatically feel that even traited the third way, we should still be good dps... I simply don't thinkhtat's true... a full trapper hunter shouldn't be treated like DPS, beucase they're not. More improvements to the line, though, would of course be welcome. More on that in a minute.
    There's also another reason why people don't like going Trapper: It's entirely different from our 'normal' playstyle. All Hunters 'grow up' with the use of at least one trap (the crafted ones have a bit of PR problem, I've previously suggested making them skills with a unified consumable), but Bard's, RoT, Distracting Shot all appear at level 45 as an 'add-on'. While in high level group play, traps are difficult and our prime CC is Bard's, Distracting and RoT. Compare that with for example the strengthened Lore-master healing abilities... it's largely based on the Flank-heal every LM already uses for himself since level 20 or so and the existing pet-heals, so it's a group utility that smoothly integrates into existing solo abilities.

    So instead of focussing on improving Bard's and Distracting shot, I very much would like the Traps to get an overhaul so they're a real asset in group play (give me some kind of debuff that will spring the trap for a mob of my choosing please!). Maybe even introduce a knockdown trap for ranged/tactical mobs... That way our CC abilities hopefully get more integrated in our general group role, with the trait line to specialize into it. And not the current black and white we're DPS or CC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    The LM one comes with a potent caveat, in that it's an on-expiration root you're talking about, and the aplication of it can re-break a previous root, so it's risky for locking. I'd think of RoT more along the lines of herb Lore, for LMs, and as such I don't think it's cooldown should be any lower than that (equal to, certainly).... that siad, considering we are talking about using a legendary slot for it... maybe turbine might find it acceptable to have it 30/1m, if supported by a line bonus or trait. I'd LIKE to have a completely cyclic ten target root, but Turbine won't give us that without a powerful catch-clause to go with it.

    How about this: Cooldown of RoT baselines for 2:30. A trapper trait would take off one minute, and say, the 4th line bonus would take off a minute more... Or, the more Turbine-likely method, would be that the 4th linebonus would take off a minute, and a legacy would max out at taking off another minute.

    This way you would need to be completely invested as a CCer to have your 10-target cyclic root... but it would be -doable-
    I already think RoT is our most powerful CC skill (I still consider the AoE targets legacy working on to be just... amazing). No way you're going to get it cyclic. There's one thing you can carry over from Cracked Earth though: The x% chance to break on damage instead of break-on-any-damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Truth is, the way it acts right now, it's more useful forhte power than the healing, since if your'e in a position to use it, and you desperately need the healing, then, chances are, if you're NOT dead by the time it goes off, then you will, inhtat time, have already RECEIVED the healing you need form a helaer in group.

    I actually don't consider press onward a group skill; I consider it a solo legendary... in the situation where you have the power to create the window to use it properly.... that said, as a legendary skill, I have no objection to it being made more unilaterally useful, and removing hte induction, or at elast cutting it to, say, 0.5, would be a good start.
    Press Onward is a nice burst power return... and that's it, nice but no way legendary (and talking about 'when you need it you'll get it from the healer before PO goes off', I've even often had our LM share the power right in the middle of my PO induction!!). I typically choose between BotR or PO based on burst or constant regen. For solo I find the Agile Rejoinder legacy much more useful (Swift-strike + Agile rejoinder gives me basically a full time HoT and if I need to recover I just do a Bard's right after hitting AR). Also I think we don't really need a heal... we've never had much self-heals and when we talk about needing a heal it's often to absorb spike (AoE) damage. That's what the recent bubbles are great for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    This is tricky.... I agree, I'm not happy with our current interruping. I like that blindside is one, and I like the concept and ideology contained in blindside... and I do agree that it desperately -Needs- to be an immedieate... however, I Would like to have an interrupt at our preferred range, and they've alreayd said clearly that they aren't going to give us another one.
    I simply don't agree for the call for a ranged interrupt... would it be nice? sure... but the only reason we got one in the first place is because they introduced landscape mobs and 3-man bosses that required interrupting without time for an induction or immune to CC, so, like corruption removal, every class got an interrupt. But in raids and 6 mans you often need specialists, like Burglars and Champions for interrupts. The same discussion happens with LMs who, untraited, have problems with Blinding Flash queue and induction when interrupting (BF is a fast, not an instant skill similar to Blindside) and just stick to using the LotrD stun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Keeping in mind also, however, the -threat legacies only actually function AT ALL when you are in Endurance stance. This has been confirmed by a dev as WaI, in fact, so it seems the actual best way to consolidate those legacies wold be to merge them into an "Endurance Stance threat decrease" legacy, that ranked an additional 10%, to bring legacied endurance up to 20%.
    You got any sources for that? Because it's the first time I've heard of it at all... I know there's been some debate over Quick Shot Critical rating, but never noticed anything about the threat legacies apart from the odd threat asking if they actually do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Actually, here, thre's already quite a bit of that sort of thing in play, in most recent group and raid content. Take the stacking fenzy buff of the Uruks in Shadow-wing T2, for example... any more than three on one tank, and you're getting into some seriously painful territory. We DO use Cc quite a bit in the current Raid.. almost as much as we are able to use, in fact, and players have had to get more clever about what they're using where, and when, while dealing with adaptation as well.

    I personally think that there has actually been relatively little pure tank and zergball in the most recent content, and I like that trend.
    Entirely true, ToO is a step in the right direction. But it would be nice to see it applied more generally, I don't mind the odd zergball (that's what we just got our new Arrow Storm for!) but some 'essential CC' would be nice to see in 3 mans or 6 mans as well. Especially in 3 mans it could very well be a very clear choice: Here's 6 mobs... either bring a good Tank + Healer combo or get a LM/Hunter to CC them and have a Champion or Captain tank. Unfortunately most recent 3 man bosses hit hard enough to require a Tank + Healer anyway.
    Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others...
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  6. #156
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    +rep .. great post Eviltreerat!

    But, honestly, I'm just really, really, really tired of some members of our class stating that everything is hunky-dory (yes, I'm old) and vote No-we're not broken and No-we don't need improvement in the moors....

    I have to think there are ulterior motives behind those that don't want to see the Hunter class improved.
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  7. #157

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    People referencing the threat issues with hunters and saying they have adequate tools to combat them are missing the biggest point. In order for us to do so we have to inherently limit our overall DPS output.

    The biggest one is the Stealthy Shot trait, it should be in the Blue line, being as that seems to be the designed raiding trait line atm. I would gladly untrait my Rain of Arrows trait and swap that in there. The reason I don't like to is you pretty much have to sacrifice a red trait (would be +600 crit and the +10% crit magnitude from set bonus) in order to do so. I personally don't mind to much to have to start out a raid boss fight in endurance for a couple minutes, that allows me to keep my optimal trait setup and be able to switch back to precision when the time calls for it. The main issue I've been having is even starting out slow in endurance using pretty much just AA and quick shot for a fleetness cycle or two, going to a full DPS rotation in endurance for another fleetness cycle, I will still pull aggro at the end of the fight if I switch out of endurance at this point.

    If I were to trait the stealthy shot trait I would lose some of my ability to do the burst damage that his required at certain times which makes it not worth my time. The perfect example is Lightning T2 in ToO, it doesn't really become much of a DPS race until the end when all the floor panels are lit.

    Hunter threat issues really need to be addressed because the only thing we really bring to most raids (thinking boss fights in particular) is ability to output crazy amounts of DPS, and if that is limited by a tanks aggro ability while we as hunters have nothing to do to help the situation it just becomes very un-fun to play.
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  8. #158
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    183

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I simply don't agree for the call for a ranged interrupt... would it be nice? sure... but the only reason we got one in the first place is because they introduced landscape mobs and 3-man bosses that required interrupting without time for an induction or immune to CC, so, like corruption removal, every class got an interrupt. But in raids and 6 mans you often need specialists, like Burglars and Champions for interrupts. The same discussion happens with LMs who, untraited, have problems with Blinding Flash queue and induction when interrupting (BF is a fast, not an instant skill similar to Blindside) and just stick to using the LotrD stun.
    We don't need to be interrupting specialists. But moving our interrupt off a melee skill to a ranged one would be far more useful and put us on par with all the other classes who can interrupt in some form or another at their preffered distance. I'd love to see something like this. Call it Distracting Shot and make it a non-damaging fast interrupt with the same cooldown Blindside currently. Rename the existing Distracting Shot to something else like Stunning Shot. The net result, we keep our mez as is, blindside remains largely what it is now as a good focus builder while in melee, and we get an interrupt that would be useable wherever we are but still requires situational awareness and for us to break any induction we may currently be in.
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  9. #159
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Some people need to read. Remember the 41/41//41 spec comment? Well guess what - you are proving exactly why I said it. You assume that hunters can trait, stance, and gear for -30% threat and -30% power, which we can. In the process of doing so though, our damage drops so sharply that we now longer need the threat reduction. Nor can we retain our spot as one of three primary damage-dealing classes as such. The only way your "well trait for it" argument would work, is if we had 12 class traits and were able to trait multiple lines. And even then it isn't enough. If -10% threat or power use was good enough then just changing our class item would be enough to fix the problem. It isn't as plenty of hunters have discovered to their misery.

    To the "Trapper of Foes is great!" - when was the last time you saw a group going "X/6 Roots of Fangorn, need non-dps LM, Burglar, or ToF hunter."? I bet never. How many times has a group that has wiped on trash mobs said "go trait CC" as opposed to "we need a bigger tank"? Probably can count them on one hand with fingers left over. The hard fact is that crowd control in LotRO is nearly dead, and for the few times that it might be useful, we again need to be a 41/ 41/ 41 spec to get the mythical combination of "uber CC" and "leet dps" that people say we have. 30 second mezz every 15 seconds? Sure - if the hunter devotes 5 class traits, 1 legendary trait, and a maxed-out legacy to it. And that is just to bring ONE tool to match the setup of a Lore Master who has also has a baseline AoE root, two stuns, and that is without spending a single trait or legacy. Maybe you're content playing second fiddle to a drooling moron, but if I invest that heavily in something at the expense of damage I expect to be appreciably better at that something than a just-capped character with no LI and no traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuth_KM View Post
    +rep .. great post Eviltreerat!

    But, honestly, I'm just really, really, really tired of some members of our class stating that everything is hunky-dory (yes, I'm old) and vote No-we're not broken and No-we don't need improvement in the moors....

    I have to think there are ulterior motives behind those that don't want to see the Hunter class improved.
    Oh the reason is rather simple if you've seen it before. I call it the "Quivana Problem" after the whiny ranger in DAoC who was constantly saying "archers are fine, you just suck and here is my video proving it!" even in the days when assassins could see a stealthed archer farther than they could use see an unstealthed one. It's ego. Through some ability of a delusional mind to warp reality they've taken the handful of times the stars all lined up (weak target, buffed to the hilt, upper-end crit after upper end crit) and turned into a "well I am doing so I must be a great hunter and these complainers just suck." I'm waiting for the staged video clips that these people will say proves their point. Watching them get ripped to pieces when the truth comes out makes for great entertainment.

    I'll say right now though that arguing with them is pointless. Like conspiracy theorists, any time you point out a weakness or outright lie in their "argument" they immediately claim that you just aren't "seeing the truth" or are part of the conspiracy. Circular logic is great for hiding the answer to "what is wrong with this argument" in plain sight but it's a lousy substitute for facts and logical reasoning. I don't even bother replying - I just put them on the ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balagast View Post
    People referencing the threat issues with hunters and saying they have adequate tools to combat them are missing the biggest point. In order for us to do so we have to inherently limit our overall DPS output.

    The biggest one is the Stealthy Shot trait, it should be in the Blue line, being as that seems to be the designed raiding trait line atm. I would gladly untrait my Rain of Arrows trait and swap that in there. The reason I don't like to is you pretty much have to sacrifice a red trait (would be +600 crit and the +10% crit magnitude from set bonus) in order to do so. I personally don't mind to much to have to start out a raid boss fight in endurance for a couple minutes, that allows me to keep my optimal trait setup and be able to switch back to precision when the time calls for it. The main issue I've been having is even starting out slow in endurance using pretty much just AA and quick shot for a fleetness cycle or two, going to a full DPS rotation in endurance for another fleetness cycle, I will still pull aggro at the end of the fight if I switch out of endurance at this point.

    If I were to trait the stealthy shot trait I would lose some of my ability to do the burst damage that his required at certain times which makes it not worth my time. The perfect example is Lightning T2 in ToO, it doesn't really become much of a DPS race until the end when all the floor panels are lit.

    Hunter threat issues really need to be addressed because the only thing we really bring to most raids (thinking boss fights in particular) is ability to output crazy amounts of DPS, and if that is limited by a tanks aggro ability while we as hunters have nothing to do to help the situation it just becomes very un-fun to play.
    Well someone gets the 41/41/41 spec problem. As well as the problem we have with threat capping our ability to do damage the other primary dps classes (champion & rune keeper) have much higher caps.

    In theory our tools should be enough but in this case theory does not match reality. To output the amount of damage we're expected to, a hunter has to stay in S:P for the overwhelming majority of the fight. The problem is that, as any hunter who isn't lazy on their rotation knows, even a conservative start is no assurance that you won't pull aggro and with the increasing appearance of "burn phases" and the dps-race in encounters we don't always have the luxury of starting out slow and doing less than 100% our maximum sustained. What we lack, and what other classes have built in, is the ability to when things have, or are going to, hit the fan to shed enough threat fast enough that we drop back to a safe level and can resume doing our maximum-sustained damage with 10 seconds. I'm sure people will say "be proactive!" - well how does one be proactive when your threat can suddenly spike due to a string of high-end critical hits and/ or the tank having a streak of misses? Any hunter who was nearing the 50% critical rating mark in WoW and ran a threat meter can tell you just how quickly one streak at the wrong time can put you from comfortably below the tank to a hairs breath from drawing aggro.

    I don't think we need more threat tools. We are already suffering keyboard bloat (yet another thing in common with our WoW counterparts) and more tools would just make that worse. We need the tools we have to be practical, to function, and to be there when we need them instead of tied to a trait line that still suffers from the lowest dps and thus the lowest threat & power problems. I put them in my post but I'll summarize them hear for those with no attention span: make stances changeable IMMEDIATELY, put a real threat-reduction component into Beneath Care/ Notice, and consolidate our threat-reduction legacies to make them practical. Oh and make them work in something besides Endurance - if that is true then someone at Turbine needs to be fired for gross incompetence; hunters in S:E aren't going to be building up threat, they're going to be shedding it by spamming Quick Shot. It's hunters in S:S and S:P who need to lower their threat. If what we have isn't enough then maybe Turbine should consider taking the threat-transfer code from LM's Inner Fire, turning it into a threat-reduction, and tacking it only Strength of Earth.

  10. #160

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Interesting thread if overly dramatic.

    In some ways I agree completely and in others not at all.

    First ... How I don't agree.

    Managing agro in a group is YOUR responsibility. Learning when to use auto attack and wait for successfully established agro is an important skill for the player who wishes to survive as a hunter. Yeah, wait a little bit. Why are you front loading the damage? I RARELY and I mean RARELY steal agro from my tank (unless of course the person is a lousy tank). Knowing how threat works is the first step here. Knowing when to hit Beneath Notice is important. I keep close watch on this and BN has saved my rear a few times when I got overzealous. In trying to run my Guard and Warden better, I read this article which helped me immensely in understanding my role as a Hunter ... go figure. I recommend it for anyone having problems with pulling agro: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...uardian-Skills

    Once agro is fully established, you should be able to pretty much unload on the target. A good tank will know how to maintain the agro (even a Captain when they use Noble's Mark) won't lose agro after about 6-12 seconds of engagement (during which you should be auto attacking and minimizing your damage by using QS and lower damage shots.) For Wardens, I wait a little bit longer as they tend to have to build agro. However with the new ranged Gambits, that dynamic is changing considerably.

    Mitigation is key. You'll take a lot less damage from the elites if you trait correctly and are geared for mitigation. Are you max traited in everything? Are you using Phys and Tactical Mitigation traits? Or are you just maxing your agility at every turn because there's no longer a cap?

    Now How I do agree...

    Soloing elites is a wholly different story and here is where I think you have the most valid arguments. If you yellow trait, you can hold and CC enemies really well while giving up quite a bit of DPS. If you red trait, your traps are pretty much worthless on elites and you had better hope you can DPS fast enough or die. High end Hunters looking for teams are usually Yellow traited (or so I have been told) I have only recently started working at this. I have most of my Draig set, minus two pieces and am still red traited because the teams I roll with know I can manage my DPS until it's time to burn something down quick.

    Heals ... yeah with you on that one. A reactive heal that requires a legacy to be worth anything, is poor design. It either heals or it doesn;t ... % chance? My foot. The percentage is the fact that it is already reactive ... Gawd how much can you gimp something like a self-heal to make it almost worthless?

    PO is great but the long induction (luckily it isn't broken now by being hit thanks to the update) takes way to long to heal what will be knocked off in a few hits by an elite anyway. SoTE regens power and in some cases morale but is also a long winded process that is useless when you have a mob beating you silly ...

    Hunter's Art is weak, I agree. You have to make the choice how to open salvo and you want the most bang for your buck and HA just gets them running into melee range, has ridiculous induction time for what it does and makes little sense. You already are a Hunter ... why do you need a to take a weak shot in order to *activate* your Hunter-ness? Lame Lame Lame idea.

    Hunter's armor ... well, yeah it sucks. I think Warden's get it worse to be honest ... Tank in medium armor ... their shield ... which is integral to every Warden gets more awful while they level and the Guards shield just gets better. But Hunter's are stuck shield-less in Medium armor ... it's the price of being Agile. So, Agility is an awesome stat ... but it should also make you evade a HECK of a lot more than it does. A level 75 Hunter should be VERY DIFFICULT to hit (try hitting a gymnast or any person with extremely agile reflexes) ... sure medium armor doesn't stop as much damage but darned if we don't get hit almost every time eh? Agility needs to contribute FAR more to ACTUALLY EVADING BLOWS ENTIRELY. Right now a level 75 hunter would have trouble evading a 6 year old with a stick, let alone a Huorn or a Stone Troll. Truly, mobs should struggle to even hit a Hunter ... especially if that Hunter is an Elf ... but Lore be blasted ... no matter the race, the Hunter needs to be able to avoid and mitigate better than she does.
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  11. #161

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Just reading your last post (cause 5 pages of posts was more than I was prepared to read through) and yeah, we don't always have the luxury of starting slow ... but that's going to be team specific. There are certainly a lot of issues that need to be addressed but most of what I said still stands.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000021802c/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  12. #162
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I havent read this thread for a week or so, so not sure whats in the last posts.

    Just a few points.

    I recently switched to endurance in the ROF instance boss fight because of agro pulls. In endurance I wasnt generating enough focus with my regular rotation to pump out efficient dps. So in that respect it wasnt endurance at all and therefore not a viable option for me. Either the focus issue needs to be looked at or the reduced threat needs to go into precision.

    It still feels like the focus nerf has actually limited our opportunities rather than widened them

    Distracting shot is in trapper trait line. why? Im hardly ever going to use trapper in group play, its far more effective solo on elites. I need it when Im pumping out the DPS in groups e.g blue trait line makes more sense. Similarly the group poison purge is far better in blue.

    Id like to see yellow trait line be more about solo survivability, solo/small group pvp and even melee - yes melee. lets face it we afre more likely to melee 1v1 in the moors of solo in pve than anywhere. our role as cc in groups is incidental and our existing roots, fears and stuns are sufficient as they are to 'off-cc' when needed.
    Last edited by Martigan; Mar 30 2012 at 08:44 AM.

  13. #163

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Martigan View Post
    Id like to see yellow trait line be more about solo survivability, solo/small group pvp and even melee - yes melee. lets face it we afre more likely to melee 1v1 in the moors of solo in pve than anywhere. our role as cc in groups is incidental and our existing roots, fears and stuns are sufficient as they are to 'off-cc' when needed.
    I'd have to agree. Let's step back and look at this pragmatically. If a person were to say, steps into a bear trap, they would struggle to get themselves out, *if* they could get themselves out. Now add a person shooting at them with a bow and arrow or a crossbow. Traps are a weak component in LoTRO even though they are an initially cool idea. Let's say the person does get out of the trap ... why are they running full speed? Traps damage and hurt and the psychology of being trapped and shot up would be devastating. Yet we have one trap that damages and one trap that wounds. Why not combine them? There should also be a component that represents being demoralized for x amount of time. If traps actually did something other than hold for a piddly amount of time, Hunters would be a much more integral part of a team than off-cc or straight dps. Just a thought.
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  14. #164

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Well said. Well I don't feel like adding another long ### post that basically restates what everyone has said but I will say that...I think we should have a strike and cause anarchy and chaos! Lets start a hunter revolution!>: )
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  15. #165

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Definitely we should be better cc for sure. I have been learning to use these abilities and while a lot of fun and a serious boost to survivability, there are times where it isn't useful do to the cooldown lengths. Also I don't believe anything even a raid boss should be immune to cc and no poison should be unable to be removed. This is called tactics its not an exploit if a clever skilled hunter, LM , or Burgler uses CC to tank a boss in an instance instead of a guardian. Give us choices on the tactics we use not force us into the Guard,Healer, and DPS style of play. The cooldowns are especially problematic as on some mobs all CC's will work and on some only 1 maybe 2 will. For example, the cargul on ringwraith's lair can only be stunned, it cant be trapped or feared. That leaves only dazing blow and distracting shot and their cooldowns are so long that they are just a 1 shot in a fight. If I can use bard's arrow on someone I am untouchable if I cant its a hope I kill him and can heal while stunning only twice kind of thing. Frankly biggest issue hunters face in a group is the need for 4/6 of a six man to be Guard,Healer,Captain,Champ or fail leaving little room in groups for the remaining classes that aren't indispensable. If CC were more viable for instance/raid boss usage we would have more opportunities to group. As it is there is little flexibility in group composition at least as I have seen. So I suggest all CC's be 30 seconds and crafted traps be 1-2 minutes not 5. Crafted traps do so much but are situational due to the 5 minute cooldown.
    Welleg , Kelleg, and Gelleg - Crickhollow
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  16. #166
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmarill View Post
    Managing agro in a group is YOUR responsibility. Learning when to use auto attack and wait for successfully established agro is an important skill for the player who wishes to survive as a hunter. Yeah, wait a little bit. Why are you front loading the damage? I RARELY and I mean RARELY steal agro from my tank (unless of course the person is a lousy tank). Knowing how threat works is the first step here. Knowing when to hit Beneath Notice is important. I keep close watch on this and BN has saved my rear a few times when I got overzealous.
    Here we are again with the same old argument. How hard it is to understand that what you propose, is simply self-nerfing the class.

    What you say is that for our class to work, we have to cripple what hunter class was designed to do - dps. How illogical is that? And no, I am not talking only about "front-loading" the damage.

    And for the people claiming we have enough tools to manage threat, yes we have some tools. But if we decide to spend half of our resources on these tools, our dps drops to such level it does not matter how good our threat management is. I really don't see how some people can't understand that.
    Farewell.

  17. #167

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    We don't need more stupid "tools" that only give vague threat references instead of numbers. We need our threat dump skill changed. It wasn't a problem before RoI bc it wasn't obvious until the stat freedom. Now it's pretty dang obvious.
    Doesn't matter how much you understand threat or hold back on front loading damage... burst damage is what we do now, and no tank can compete with that except for very reflexive wardens... who I'm probably gonna try to group with more often now, ESP since they got the buffs they needed.
    Before you post a thread talking about how a guard manages threat in the picture perfect situation, think about crits and burst damage. There's no threat to leech before the burst, so you can't flatten it. You can't predict it. You have ONE skill (engage) that matches it. It's bound to happen, unless the hunter is taking care to throttle dps to the point where when it spikes, there wasn't enough BEHIND the spike to push in front of the tank's threat. Hunter's are a burst damage class, just look at our skills... we don't depend on bleeds like burg/rk. We deserve a better, a REAL, threat dump.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  18. #168

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    [QUOTE=Valmarill;6079706]

    Managing agro in a group is YOUR responsibility. Learning when to use auto attack and wait for successfully established agro is an important skill for the player who wishes to survive as a hunter. Yeah, wait a little bit. Why are you front loading the damage? I RARELY and I mean RARELY steal agro from my tank (unless of course the person is a lousy tank). Knowing how threat works is the first step here. Knowing when to hit Beneath Notice is important. I keep close watch on this and BN has saved my rear a few times when I got overzealous. In trying to run my Guard and Warden better, I read this article which helped me immensely in understanding my role as a Hunter ... go figure. I recommend it for anyone having problems with pulling agro: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...uardian-Skills
    [QUOTE]

    This is not aggro management, it is dps limitations that hunters must practice. The point being you cannot manage your aggro. You must turn it down, or off, or reduce it by being in another stance to achieve what other classes can do in a button push. Hunters can push off aggro, limit dps (the job we are paid and expected to do) or take a 10-15 second break at the start of every encounter. Hunters need a way to ACTIVELY change their aggro status. Others have covered this.. I have beat it to death, if you cannot see that there is a need for this by now there is no convincing you by going over it all again. I play warden and have excellent guards I play with.. and I know they would welcome a way for a hunter to transfer aggro to them. It shouldn't be game breaking, it should be enough to reward a smart player who wants to push their toons to the limit, or one to help those that don't have the luxuary of playing with a very good tank on a daily basis.

    l started this thread for the purpose of getting other hunters to truly examine the toon they play. I think I am starting to see that in the recent posts. We need to recognize some of the things that need fixing, updating, removing (some skills make no sense), and combining to make this a more efficient and streamlined character. This does not mean I want to make a hunter easier to play. By cleaning up the mess we open the hunter up to skills, LIs and legendaries that can make it more than a pew pew machine. Many hunters are now expressing thoughts along those lines and that is what we need. Hunters have been evolving and there is no clear image of what they will become except toons that hit harder, draw more aggro and get squisher each book. This is not the hunter I wanted when I started 5 years ago. I love limelight it shows what a hunter can do when given the right situation.... unfortunately this is not the norm for the areas that have been added. This area is very hunter friendly. All our CC works, we have room to kite, we can take 5 hits and still be standing most times. While I enjoy showcasing what hunters can do... hats off to those who handle the 150k trees and doing 3 trolls (I have only mastered 2 at a time) it saddens me that we cannot do this in most areas.

    Can we be a CC threat, sure especially if we can do a bit of pruning, and revamping of skills and LIs. By making a few small changes we can be viable CC for groups, yes we are now to a certain extent, but we can add one or two things that might recommend us to groups for that purpose.

    There are many ways to ehance the hunter... give it more survivability, better or more reliable CC, give traps debuffs, use campfire as a way to add to a group through power, morale or even resistances by adding herbs (or just make each log give a different buff yew=power, ash= morale, mallorn=fear resist buff). In the end we want a more challenging character to play besides 1,2,1,1,3,2, ect.....

    The main problem we have is that a hunter has come very far from its base character. A hunter was expected to finish its target in melee range, you were going to get face time with the big baddie. We needed that armor and mits to handle this aspect of the game. Devs came and went... and changed the hunter. We were given CC to help reduce face time, we hit harder to limit this as well. With this addition certain devs felt that we no longer needed the extra padding for taking hits and reducing damage. All fine when we had trash to take on, but not so good when the elites became CC immune to our major forms of CC: fears, roots, traps and began hitting like trucks.

    We were given skills that didn't help with our flaws, they just showed them even more. The AOE for hunters is a great addition, but when we hit that hard on multiple targets we draw aggro and we die. Again great thought, great skill, but poor in execution. Or, we are given things that we don't need or give a very limited benefit that they are not used: Hunter's Art, split shot, agile rejoiner, heightened senses. I am not accusing any dev of deep sixing hunters, I am saying that it hurts that the devs do not and have not played hunter since the beginning. If you don't know how the toon was designed, its strenghts and weaknesses, and clear vision of where you want it to go you will have major problems making changes to it. That is what we see now.

    The hunter is swimming in so many minor problems that we have a hard time focusing in on what needs to be changed. The one glaring problem is aggro.. and it is tied to survivability. You can give us a aggro dump or transfer, or you can give us back our mits and armour. It can be balanced either way, but by giving the armour back it may lead to other classes saying we are OP. On the other hand hunters need that survivability in certain places like the moors or elites that are CC immune and will say we need this back to compete. We cannot stand up to the harder hitting foes that double, triple or are sitting with 10 times our morale pool and expect to preform as well as other classes. So how do we handle this? I don't have a cut and dry solution and if I would take a guess I would say hunters would be split equally on the choice of how to fix this. Without dev discussion we compound the problem even more. We need to be able to get an idea of where he wants to take the hunter BEFORE the changes take place. This is the biggest frustration factor for me and many others. We see so many things that need to be fixed, we have ideas on how to fix them, yet we are blind to what we as hunters will be asked to do. There is no clear expectations for our class.

    Are we broken... no. Hunters can still preform our role as dps, but we have constantly use work arounds to do this. We have major LI problems our legedaries are anything but, and we have skills that take up space instead of finding a spot in my gameplay. There is a cloud of problems so hunters appear to be unfocused to other classes. Hunters need to just limit what they want and demand that.... might work if there wasn't so much to fix. It will be a major task just getting the aggro situation right, add to that an LI and legendary discussion, skills revamp, skills update/purging, traitlines... the list goes on. This is what we need to start doing. Thank you to all who have joined in, argued for and against me, and added their thoughts on where the class should go. Keep this thread going.

    Tydalmir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Apr 01 2012 at 10:49 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  19. #169

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Good post btw!

    Maybe I don't play my hunter very well.

    Maybe I don't fully comprehend the mechanics of the class I love to play.

    Maybe I don't have the right gear, or the right traits up.

    All these aside I will say only this:

    since the rollout of RoI and U6 I do not 'feel' like a hunter anymore. Somehow this hunter feels more like a quasi-melee class (and a poor one at that) who happens to have this ability to do ranged attacks, but might as well toss my bow on the ground then use it in any real fight.

    And for me to feel this way after playing for so long without a problem tells me the devs missed the boat somewhere when it came to my chosen path. A path THEY offered to me as a choice upon character creation!
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  20. #170
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    ....
    Are we broken... no. Hunters can still preform our role as dps, but we have constantly use work arounds to do this. We have major LI problems our legedaries are anything but, and we have skills that take up space instead of finding a spot in my gameplay. There is a cloud of problems so hunters appear to be unfocused to other classes. Hunters need to just limit what they want and demand that.... might work if there wasn't so much to fix. It will be a major task just getting the aggro situation right, add to that an LI and legendary discussion, skills revamp, skills update/purging, traitlines... the list goes on. This is what we need to start doing. Thank you to all who have joined in, argued for and against me, and added their thoughts on where the class should go. Keep this thread going.

    Tydalmir
    I cannot rep you anymore, but the post is entirely on point IMO, my feelings since RoI have altered a lot. Initially I saw some classes 'evolving' past us (which was annoying), after a good amount of tweaking and seeing the end result DPS doesn't seem a problem. Threat control has it's issues as many have pointed out, I would like to see beneath notice become an actual threat reduction rather than a percieved and that would fix a lot of it IMO....and as you say survivability is in there. I still think it seems like with the RK they had a light armor they wanted to make glass cannon (that could also heal) but as we had been the DPS prior, they didn't know where to put us..give us the same DPS we are happy and OP because RK was too squishy, ut our DPS and most of us that rolled before an RK are insulted our role is removed. That's just part of it, the bigger picture is worse, I can appreciate the difficulies, however;

    I just can't get past the feeling that the hunter is "the assignment I did at last minute without doing the research"..I've handed in plenty of those over the years. If we take what we got with RoI most of it is rubbish and non effectual, particularly in a group environment. I have done I think 5 raids since RoI and I still played hunter in them, it was OK..that's down from 2-3 raids per week, I haven't even done Great River yet so don't have some of the cooler stuff. I'm not done with the game entirely, but my hunter is my baby with /played 8 months-ish and that will never change. I just can't be bothered anymore it seems, it may be that it's not the hunter class and more the game, but when you feel as disenfranchised as I do with what was the soul of the game for me it's hard to be interested. I would have imagined Turbine would think that's a problem, but apparently not, maybe it is just me that feels like this, in which case carry on. I'm having a blast leveling a lore breaker and getting TP .
    Q. What state do you live in?
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  21. #171
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    +rep Tinluen, well-stated!
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  22. #172

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fin. View Post
    Here we are again with the same old argument. How hard it is to understand that what you propose, is simply self-nerfing the class.

    What you say is that for our class to work, we have to cripple what hunter class was designed to do - dps. How illogical is that? And no, I am not talking only about "front-loading" the damage.

    And for the people claiming we have enough tools to manage threat, yes we have some tools. But if we decide to spend half of our resources on these tools, our dps drops to such level it does not matter how good our threat management is. I really don't see how some people can't understand that.
    It's the same old argument because there hasn't been an MMO I've played where this wasn't the case. I agreed with a lot of the original poster's thoughts but the drama dished out in this thread is over the top. Beneath Notice works for me to transfer threat. Works wonderfully. Dropping to auto attack when an enemy starts to run towards me and hitting BN works great. So does running past the target and stunning it or running towards the tank to let them re-establish agro (if it can't be stunned). Funny how most idiots just run away and make the tank chase the target. Run towards the tank and past him/her if possible. This is probably wasted breath because your legitimate issues are getting lost with all of the QQ nonsense.

    We are a DPS class but managing your agro is still part of that strategy. Otherwise, what drawback would there be to always shooting for maximum damage all the time? enemies would no longer be a challenge cause you could just drop them without ever worrying that you're going to pull them.
    Yes, the cost is too high for getting decent DPS at the expense of life/mitigation, on this we can agree. Hunters could use another threat transfer, I agree. Hunters could also use more team beneficial abilities, I agree. Something to make them actually wanted on teams again. I also agree that the reactive heal was essentially lame. Putting Legendary points to raise a percentage chance of heal on something that only happens a percentage of the time is madness. Medium armor mitigation is a joke.
    So while we can agree, that yes, the Hunter could use some love I just can't hop onto the "class doomed to fail" bandwagon. The class works fine, it just needs some adjustments.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000021802c/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Looks like the signatures are broken ... All of my craft skills are maxed.

  23. #173

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    I play warden and have excellent guards I play with.. and I know they would welcome a way for a hunter to transfer aggro to them. It shouldn't be game breaking, it should be enough to reward a smart player who wants to push their toons to the limit, or one to help those that don't have the luxuary of playing with a very good tank on a daily basis....

    Are we broken... no. Hunters can still preform our role as dps, but we have constantly use work arounds to do this. We have major LI problems our legedaries are anything but, and we have skills that take up space instead of finding a spot in my gameplay. There is a cloud of problems so hunters appear to be unfocused to other classes. Hunters need to just limit what they want and demand that.... might work if there wasn't so much to fix. It will be a major task just getting the aggro situation right, add to that an LI and legendary discussion, skills revamp, skills update/purging, traitlines... the list goes on. This is what we need to start doing. Thank you to all who have joined in, argued for and against me, and added their thoughts on where the class should go. Keep this thread going.

    Tydalmir
    BTW my statements are meant to show another side of this. I agree with a lot of your points. We are on the same page with a lot of things just not all of them. I understand the need to emphatically appeal to others, I just felt it went a bit overboard. Cheers to you, and I hope that most of your concerns can be addressed without turning this class into a worse Frankenstein than it already is.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000021802c/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Looks like the signatures are broken ... All of my craft skills are maxed.

  24. #174
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,864

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fin. View Post
    Here we are again with the same old argument. How hard it is to understand that what you propose, is simply self-nerfing the class.

    What you say is that for our class to work, we have to cripple what hunter class was designed to do - dps. How illogical is that? And no, I am not talking only about "front-loading" the damage.

    And for the people claiming we have enough tools to manage threat, yes we have some tools. But if we decide to spend half of our resources on these tools, our dps drops to such level it does not matter how good our threat management is. I really don't see how some people can't understand that.
    You're completely correct.

    Next issue: Give hunters infinite power, having to handle power issues requires us to cripple what hunter class was designed to do - dps. How illogical is that?

    With threat and power fixed, all we need is an IRL protective mask to avoid sores from facerolling.

    The DPS cost for handling threat might be too high atm, but it has to have a cost.

  25. #175

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Other than the fact that we can't go full bore out of the gate , have skills that are all designed to give a damage boost at the front of the fight for ridiculous focus costs, and have heals that take us out of the action to be used, I don't see how we are that bad off.Aggro management is not that much of a chore. Also remember most other DPS classes with the exception of RKs are right next to the tank so if they pull the boss is still there. When a hunter pulls its a much bigger and more visible issue. Even with 1.6k agi and an SA bow at this point, I still have almost no issues with pulling aggro ever. I don't even have to start in endurance to avoid it. I simply wait 5 secs to start and then just do an occasional IQS for a few more seconds. Then switch to IQS->IQS->IPS till about 3/4 through the bosses morale. Once I am sure that the tank has built aggro sufficiently, I go to full dps mode and nothing happens unless the tank has an issue with his health or something that causes him to stop aggroing the boss. Also I don't do multiple IPS back to back, I alternate between IQS->IPS or IQS->BA. I believe by doing high damage skills back to back to back, you create the risk of multiple crits or devastates and that is what causes a pull. BTW all I do for the most part is pugs and again I rarely if ever pull aggro and the rare occasion is easily handled by beneath notice. It would be nice to seem some of our useless skills made useful and certainly I would like to have more ways to generate focus or not lose it so much. The more I am playing my hunter, the more I realize we are not that bad off. I still believe the issue is more one of other classes (burg,champion) being overpowered than we being underpowered and that we are perceived as weak because of it. The real danger is that the perception of weakness will not change even if we were made overpowered by the next update. However, looking at what was done to wardens in U6, I prefer that we be left alone than "fixed".
    Welleg , Kelleg, and Gelleg - Crickhollow
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

 

 
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