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  1. #101

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I just wanted to chime in a bit regarding a lesser relevant PvMP perspective. Many PvMP issues have been discussed, both in and out of this thread. Some of these ideas are very good--a 'kiting' stance, for example, or more focus building from melee skills and/or ranged vulnerability from melee skills. I do like a certain playstyle, though and the concept of a true 'hunter' follows this pretty well.

    Given that my mediocre play and gear for the Moors makes it unlikely that I would take out 2 ranked creeps, a spider and a warg, after I'd been handed my own ### handily once or twice questing in Grothum by said creeps, I decided not to give up, but to play it stealthy, and anyway, the cat and mouse minigame hunters and wargs play is as fun and interesting to me as any other part of PvMP play even if the warg in question has proven to take me down 1v1. As I don't have (I'm a man) any moving stealth, I find it both challenging and fun to find ways to move unseen anyway, using camo while stationary and tracking. Here, I also utilized the method of not directly tracking the 'prey' so as to see if they were in the vicinity, but not alerting them to my presence. I was hoping to either catch one of them unawares, perhaps leading to a single kill, if not a decent 1v1 scenario. At worst, I could find my way around them and continue my questing under their noses. However, at some point it became clear that I'd have to directly track the warg to be able to move freely, lest I be seen, so right up near Bok, camoed, I did so. Waiting out the delay that tracking presents, when the warg finally appeared on my minimap, I noticed both that 'you feel as if you are being followed' while at the same time the warg was bee-lining right for me and (of course) like 10m away. I was able to fear him, so he didn't get to ambush from stealth, but once the spider got into the picture--not to mention 2-4 goblin adds, the tide of battle did not sway in my favor.

    Now regarding the behavior of the spider and warg, they did what I'd do, what anyone SHOULD do: utilize the tools they're given to their advantage to take down freeps. I was that freep. No qq. The issue for me here is--well first, I'm a bit puzzled as to how they got me anyway, as I was under the impression that only Uruks can track men (maybe they had a pocket BA that didn't enter the fray? If so, fair enough, no issue)--that shouldn't hunters be the unparalleled king at--if not DPS (or ranged DPS)--at the very least tracking? I'm cool with camo being a lesser form of stealth both in depth and flexibility of movement (though I'd love a trait line to make this possible (I think ZC already mentioned that won't be happening)), as burgs and wargs should be the champs in that department. It doesn't seem right though, that the 'hunter,' the 'tracker of the forest' has to trait to see stealthed wargs--not to mention 3 differing types of mobs with different track skills on the same CD (as if we have to put on different glasses to see warg prints from Orc). This has been addressed in posts exhaustively, and rightfully so. I was lucky enough here that the creeps I was dealing with were both tracked by nature. Even if creeps need a consumable to track (not hard to get), shouldn't hunters be untrackable in camo? Perhaps some sort of tracker stance should be implemented garnering +x to stealth detection, all mobs trackable with 1 skill, and untrackable in stealth? I haven't thought this through completely, but just makes sense that I should have been able to keep my eye on them w/o them id'ing me unless they got within detect camo distance.

    Sorry for the long post, but this thread seems the venue for them.

    -Maha
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1321300000000f85d/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  2. #102

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahalikii View Post
    The issue for me here is--well first, I'm a bit puzzled as to how they got me anyway, as I was under the impression that only Uruks can track men
    -Maha
    There is a skill wargs can earn/buy that allows them to track all freeps, including stealth upgrade.

  3. #103
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Hate to say it but its fairly obvious Turbine wants this class dead. When there's absolutely zero upgrades or fixes for two updates, when the pvp armor set bonuses are lackluster to the point of insulting, when the skills we got from the expansion go unused - except IP - when skills like sote remains broken for a year, when the hunter community and its developer are at each others throats, when our legacies haven't been looked at since the whole system was introduced in MoM, when we have a traitline that the vast majority of the player base uses situationally at best...

    What other conclusion can be drawn?
    Hate to say it but its fairly obvious Turbine think too much of the average hunter. When there's a ok balanced class that has stayed on top of DPS for years and still the users whine like there's no tomorrow, when the pvp armor gives bonuses that are just as lame as other classes without sacrificing as many stats as pieces for other classes(just look at some loremaster and cappie pieces, I've seen lvl 60 armor with better stats), when skills like Split Shot can refresh cooldown on more-awesome-than-ever-before-RoA if you're wearing the good armor set, when hunters are wasting time on regen rather than pew pew pew, when the hunter community is nothing but QQ and personal threats against the class developer, when our legacies are simple, stable and yet misunderstood by huge amounts of hunters, when we have a traitline that just need some extra debuffs here and there.

    What other conclusion can be drawn?

  4. #104
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    As of now hunters are a class built for burst damage
    Strange, it seems you imply that Hunters can't sustain top-tier DPS, or that all they can do is their highest burst DPS rotation. What?

    I don't really see the lack of Hunter utility that you're seeing.

    We "utilize" Hunter fears and mezzes in ToO. Who wouldn't? There are mobs without Adaptation and you have a 10s mez. You have Bard's Arrow. You can purge one target of poison. LMs can only give SI to one target at a time, and can only cure one targets wounds/diseases at a time unless traited PAII, at least you're given a way to purge multiple targets poison in the only instance it could be necessary (Hele Spider).... Burgs can only cure one target's poison at a time.

    So... what, you want some debuffs, some buffs?

    Are you aware of all of the current buffs and debuffs? To add more requires balancing of the rest of the classes and their buffs and debuffs, balancing mobs and instances and all that jazz.

    What are you trying to be?

    The advantages of a Hunter are poison removal, traps, a fear, a mez (very respectable CC traited yellow), an AOE root, a character who can snatch aggro off of a healer or other suishy class or burn down anything with "low" morale within seconds, great burst and sustained top-tier ranged DPS (and that itself is a large part of your survivability - for reasons that I shouldn't have to type out - apart from the self heals that you do have available, and Beneath Notice, and not always zipping through your rotation just because you have/can generate enough focus to do it).

    Aggro drop/reduction/something tools are a reasonable thing to ask for if what you have doesn't seem to be enough.
    but so you are aware, Hunters aren't the only class that can burst DPS. Champs/Burgs can easily pull aggro if they choose to or don't understand what aggro is and decide to pump out their deeps.

    It is a little extreme to claim that Hunters are so terrible/broken/insufficient/unwanted. Disclaiming: I know you didn't use those words, but your post is just entirely doom n' gloom, while the Hunters in our kin are doing just fine in Orthanc and all other areas.

    For the record, none of the mobs in Limlight are immune to any form of CC.

    I guess I just don't see the need for such extreme claims... you seem to be completely ignoring all of the utility/benefits of the Hunter class.

    Every class will be "tweaked" when the level cap raises in the fall.
    Last edited by k3nn3th; Mar 20 2012 at 07:32 PM.

  5. #105

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    my hunter back in mirk wood was very "bad" in terms of gear and virtues, back then i had only 2-4 slots unlocked (im ftp) and then my highest was about 10 (being ftp makes getting them any higher very hard since you can only do a few deeds), in theory where im at now (which is 74 almost 75 made a typo in my last post) should be better off especialy since then i was fighting oranges and reds and now im fighting mostly whites

    and thats too bad about sapience, oh well

  6. #106
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Hate to say it but its fairly obvious Turbine think too much of the average hunter. When there's a ok balanced class that has stayed on top of DPS for years and still the users whine like there's no tomorrow, when the pvp armor gives bonuses that are just as lame as other classes without sacrificing as many stats as pieces for other classes(just look at some loremaster and cappie pieces, I've seen lvl 60 armor with better stats), when skills like Split Shot can refresh cooldown on more-awesome-than-ever-before-RoA if you're wearing the good armor set, when hunters are wasting time on regen rather than pew pew pew, when the hunter community is nothing but QQ and personal threats against the class developer, when our legacies are simple, stable and yet misunderstood by huge amounts of hunters, when we have a traitline that just need some extra debuffs here and there.

    What other conclusion can be drawn?
    Are we looking at the same LM/cappy/hunter sets? ./you'recrazy

    Granted cappy Draigoch set bonus is way too awesome to go over to ToO sets.

  7. #107
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    The hunter class is not broken. Sure, it could use some tweaks here and there just like every other class, but if you really find that you are worthless and every other class is a better choice then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you are a bad hunter.

    I'm not really sure what other amazing things champs apparently have to make them better than hunters... Situationally ranged DPS can be a massive advantage over melee (I'd like to see the Shadow T2 HM video with 0 hunters... 0 champs is no problem) & hunter CC is very useful for some trash pulls. RKs have a few utility skills that are very nice to have in a raid situation, but they cannot match hunter DPS. Burgs stack extremely well, true, but that is not a problem specifically with the hunter class.
    Last edited by Tarenius; Mar 20 2012 at 09:09 PM.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  8. #108
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thraxz1982 View Post
    Are we looking at the same LM/cappy/hunter sets? ./you'recrazy

    Granted cappy Draigoch set bonus is way too awesome to go over to ToO sets.
    Try reading that post again. You missed the most important word in the sentence you're talking about (Hint: PvP).
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  9. #109

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Something is infact wrong with the hunter. I left the game for 4 months. Came back last week and played my hunter. It was ok at first then became a mess. My hunter can only take on one mob at a time. Not to mention it will die in 3-5 hits by a signature. It is a mess and needs to be fixed. I use to be able to go to loth and do fine in the camps handling 3-4 orcs on my hunter. Now I can't even handle more then 2 dunlendings. its ok I still have my warden! Luckily my hunter is almost 75 so all I need him to do now is stand in back of a raid and pew pew pew and get marks for my warden since it seems marks are shared between accounts lol
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c21400000002f91e/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  10. #110
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    Try reading that post again. You missed the most important word in the sentence you're talking about (Hint: PvP).
    In fact, I did, and then looked the PvP ones and am even MORE baffled by his post.

  11. #111
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thraxz1982 View Post
    In fact, I did, and then looked the PvP ones and am even MORE baffled by his post.
    I don't think the point was that the hunter gear was good, just that (stat wise) it is not any worse than other classes, probably better even if you combine 3x 2pc sets.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  12. #112

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    The huntr is broken. My main is a guard and I have hated you guys since I started playing. I will tell you that your community is what is killing you. I, I, I, I is all many of you talk about when you say that the hunter class is fine. For example "I get 10000000 dps when I target the dummies"...The problem is not with the individual hunter, but what you are when you become part of the team. You simply don't stack up well like other classes do when it comes to what you can provide. Someone above this post had no idea about what Champs can do that is so great. They, my friend, are the UNDISPUTED aoe kings, they can force taunt to keep aggro away from healers, they can tranfer that aggro to guards to make your job easiser, their single target dps is VERY close to yours and they can do all this (and more) while wearing heavy armor and have a tanking line. Any questions? RKs are again able to bring healing that is amazing and dps very close to a hunter's without the power or aggro issues many hunters have. Burgs out dps you. I will say it again, Burgs out dps you. Add in their own dps and then add what their buffs do for a group and their true dps makes yours look pretty shabby. You provide 3rd string cc and just barely eke out a win over 2 classes for dps while those classes bring other things to the table. So please, for those of you that start your defence of the state of the hunter with the word "I" please think about what you bring to a fellowship, be honest, and then see if you still feel you don't need any love. For the others of you that get this, I do honestly feel your pain.

  13. #113

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Djasi View Post
    The huntr is broken. My main is a guard and I have hated you guys since I started playing. I will tell you that your community is what is killing you. I, I, I, I is all many of you talk about when you say that the hunter class is fine. For example "I get 10000000 dps when I target the dummies"...The problem is not with the individual hunter, but what you are when you become part of the team. You simply don't stack up well like other classes do when it comes to what you can provide. Someone above this post had no idea about what Champs can do that is so great. They, my friend, are the UNDISPUTED aoe kings, they can force taunt to keep aggro away from healers, they can tranfer that aggro to guards to make your job easiser, their single target dps is VERY close to yours and they can do all this (and more) while wearing heavy armor and have a tanking line. Any questions? RKs are again able to bring healing that is amazing and dps very close to a hunter's without the power or aggro issues many hunters have. Burgs out dps you. I will say it again, Burgs out dps you. Add in their own dps and then add what their buffs do for a group and their true dps makes yours look pretty shabby. You provide 3rd string cc and just barely eke out a win over 2 classes for dps while those classes bring other things to the table. So please, for those of you that start your defence of the state of the hunter with the word "I" please think about what you bring to a fellowship, be honest, and then see if you still feel you don't need any love. For the others of you that get this, I do honestly feel your pain.
    Thank you for bringing this up from another class's perspective. I agree with most if not all of your statements. It's good to see that other tanks, not just the ones in my kin alliance, recognize the need for hunter change too.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  14. #114
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Djasi View Post
    The huntr is broken. My main is a guard and I have hated you guys since I started playing. I will tell you that your community is what is killing you. I, I, I, I is all many of you talk about when you say that the hunter class is fine. For example "I get 10000000 dps when I target the dummies"...The problem is not with the individual hunter, but what you are when you become part of the team. You simply don't stack up well like other classes do when it comes to what you can provide. Someone above this post had no idea about what Champs can do that is so great. They, my friend, are the UNDISPUTED aoe kings, they can force taunt to keep aggro away from healers, they can tranfer that aggro to guards to make your job easiser, their single target dps is VERY close to yours and they can do all this (and more) while wearing heavy armor and have a tanking line. Any questions? RKs are again able to bring healing that is amazing and dps very close to a hunter's without the power or aggro issues many hunters have. Burgs out dps you. I will say it again, Burgs out dps you. Add in their own dps and then add what their buffs do for a group and their true dps makes yours look pretty shabby. You provide 3rd string cc and just barely eke out a win over 2 classes for dps while those classes bring other things to the table. So please, for those of you that start your defence of the state of the hunter with the word "I" please think about what you bring to a fellowship, be honest, and then see if you still feel you don't need any love. For the others of you that get this, I do honestly feel your pain.
    First of all, breathe please. You sound like you're about to hyperventilate.

    Second, You are equally guilty about not thinking about what a good hunter can bring to and do for a group.

    Their range and ability to work with said range is a more potent tool than most give credit for. It's a form of extension that allows breathing space both geographically and, just as important, chronologically.

    Further, their CC capability is not 3rd rate, as people keep saying.. it's jsut that few hutners know how to work it well, or bother trying to learn. A skilled hunter playing totheir CC can control and occupy 4 CC targets simultaniously and permanently, with actual CC. No other class can boast this.

    Several times back in Ost Dunhoth, we didn't have our LMs for their CC, they couldnt' make it, or were absent. In their place, one (only one) of hte hutners traited full CC and used her CC bow isntead, to fill both LMs CC jobs. She did it admirably, and in fact, it was -easier- with her doing so than many of our runs with the LMs handling CC. More sore was missing their debuffs, of course, but the CC aspect was a breeze with a single dedicated hutner, more than with Two LMs. We are NOT second rate CC.

    Lastly, we don't "barely" eke out a win over other classes in single target output. We anihilate other classes in it, when we are able to go at full throttle.... that last clause is usually the problem, since we're limited bythe threat barrier, just like everyone else; the unfairness being that other classes have more potent methods of ducking under it than we do. However, today, for example, in Lighting, we had a rare opportunity where the hutners -could- go full bore for the fight and not pull threat... the results were quite spectacular: of Kalbak's 1.4 million, one hunter was responsible alone for over 500k of it, the second was responsible for a little over 600k... that leaves 300k between the rest of the group, including a champ, burg and RK who were all Dps. The fight lasted about 6 minutes.

    It seems that Turbine are interested in giving us ways to really push out limits too, since the mechanic that allowed it was not broken EoB (which our group refused to use, out of fairness), but raher the warden's assailment conviction, which, amidst all the warden bugs and breaks, is NOT one of the things considered broken, non-functional or bugged.


    No-one's saying some love isn't wanted badly... the issue with threat is the major sore point, made moreso by demonstrations of what should be possible if it were mitigated. but the biggest thing harming hutners as aclass, currently, are the truckload of people busy whinging to everyone they meet about how poorly off and useless hutners are. THAT is the way you marginalise a class... by shouting vocally about how worthelss they are to everyone. Stop saying it; it isn't true.
    Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain.
    Victim tormented, Abused and Broken; Rise from the ashes and Hunt once again.
    And Vengeance Be Thy Oath.

  15. #115
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Further, their CC capability is not 3rd rate, as people keep saying.. it's jsut that few hutners know how to work it well, or bother trying to learn. A skilled hunter playing totheir CC can control and occupy 4 CC targets simultaniously and permanently, with actual CC. No other class can boast this.
    *Proceeds to root-kite 5 mobs with Cracked Earth indefinitely while simultaneously keeping two targets permamezzed*.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Several times back in Ost Dunhoth, we didn't have our LMs for their CC, they couldnt' make it, or were absent. In their place, one (only one) of hte hutners traited full CC and used her CC bow isntead, to fill both LMs CC jobs. She did it admirably, and in fact, it was -easier- with her doing so than many of our runs with the LMs handling CC. More sore was missing their debuffs, of course, but the CC aspect was a breeze with a single dedicated hutner, more than with Two LMs.
    Absolutely terrible LMs. Also... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Lastly, we don't "barely" eke out a win over other classes in single target output. We anihilate other classes in it, when we are able to go at full throttle.... that last clause is usually the problem, since we're limited bythe threat barrier, just like everyone else; the unfairness being that other classes have more potent methods of ducking under it than we do. However, today, for example, in Lighting, we had a rare opportunity where the hutners -could- go full bore for the fight and not pull threat... the results were quite spectacular: of Kalbak's 1.4 million, one hunter was responsible alone for over 500k of it, the second was responsible for a little over 600k... that leaves 300k between the rest of the group, including a champ, burg and RK who were all Dps. The fight lasted about 6 minutes.
    Absolutely terrible Champ, Burg, and RK.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    No-one's saying some love isn't wanted badly... the issue with threat is the major sore point, made moreso by demonstrations of what should be possible if it were mitigated. but the biggest thing harming hutners as aclass, currently, are the truckload of people busy whinging to everyone they meet about how poorly off and useless hutners are. THAT is the way you marginalise a class... by shouting vocally about how worthelss they are to everyone. Stop saying it; it isn't true.
    QFT.
    Last edited by k3nn3th; Mar 21 2012 at 02:20 PM.

  16. #116

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I think hunters are ok at the moment.... solo quests are super easy, groups are fine, raids are fine, and PvP is fine (as long as ur in a group).....the only problem is when u have a quite good geared hunter like me and a super geared hunter (like the one who solo`s 3 Limelight trolls at once..wow) we are mostly as usefull as each other in groups as we are gated by aggro......a great hunter should be able to do more dps than just a good hunter regardless of any other factors

  17. #117

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I guess I will start here:
    [QUOTE=Harla;6061362]Their range and ability to work with said range is a more potent tool than most give credit for. It's a form of extension that allows breathing space both geographically and, just as important, chronologically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Further, their CC capability is not 3rd rate, as people keep saying.. it's jsut that few hutners know how to work it well, or bother trying to learn. A skilled hunter playing totheir CC can control and occupy 4 CC targets simultaniously and permanently, with actual CC. No other class can boast this.
    No, you are a third rate CC machine. I will explain why.. our CC is situational. It depends on the type of mob we are facing. If it is a mob like many previous elites, then they are immune to root and fear.... there goes a good portion of our CC. If they are not animal then we lose a portion of our CC. If you get a resist on mobs that you must cycle CC through you have no quick reset button on your skills. I will not say that hunters are not viable as CC, they are very good in certain situations, but LMs, burgs and minnies can do it better most times. Again we will lose a lot of dps doing this with no other benefits other than the CC. All the buffs/debuffs/healing are lost using a hunter in this role compared to the other CC classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Several times back in Ost Dunhoth, we didn't have our LMs for their CC, they couldnt' make it, or were absent. In their place, one (only one) of hte hutners traited full CC and used her CC bow isntead, to fill both LMs CC jobs. She did it admirably, and in fact, it was -easier- with her doing so than many of our runs with the LMs handling CC. More sore was missing their debuffs, of course, but the CC aspect was a breeze with a single dedicated hutner, more than with Two LMs. We are NOT second rate CC.
    Yes and that is all they did, dps was sacrificed to have a CC class. That is it pure and simple. You had a need and the hunter was the quick fix. You didn't run this way if burgs or LMs were available did you? I am taking nothing away from that hunter. She showed skill and ability to handle CC when it was needed, yet you went back to your regular makeup when you could. What does that tell you? That was a kin as well, PUGs are not so forgiving. A PUG just needs to break CC once or twice and it will be a wipe because we cannot reset our skills at need. This is the greatest draw back of a hunter slotted for CC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Lastly, we don't "barely" eke out a win over other classes in single target output. We anihilate other classes in it, when we are able to go at full throttle.... that last clause is usually the problem, since we're limited bythe threat barrier, just like everyone else; the unfairness being that other classes have more potent methods of ducking under it than we do. However, today, for example, in Lighting, we had a rare opportunity where the hutners -could- go full bore for the fight and not pull threat... the results were quite spectacular: of Kalbak's 1.4 million, one hunter was responsible alone for over 500k of it, the second was responsible for a little over 600k... that leaves 300k between the rest of the group, including a champ, burg and RK who were all Dps. The fight lasted about 6 minutes.

    It seems that Turbine are interested in giving us ways to really push out limits too, since the mechanic that allowed it was not broken EoB (which our group refused to use, out of fairness), but raher the warden's assailment conviction, which, amidst all the warden bugs and breaks, is NOT one of the things considered broken, non-functional or bugged.
    Champs can do crazy dps and not have to worry about their threat. They have a skill that they can ACTIVELY use to control the fate of their character. This skill gives them control over a situation. Hunter do not have this so they must rely on other classes to take care of their aggro for them. This now falls to the skill of the players around you. In a kin you may be correct in saying that we rarely have aggro problems. That is because each member knows what is expected of them, has the skills to use at the right time, the knowledge of when and how to use them, and the gear to survive if things go south for a bit. This is not true of PUGS. Most hunters don't belong to raid kins, most hunters run PUGs because, they too would like a shot at the shineys that come from raiding. So they PUG up and try their luck. Try a few PUG runs and see how it goes. You will see so much desparity between runs it will make you run back crying to your kin.

    I am tired of having my fate locked into how well the tank knows its role. I am tired of holding back dps on a toon built just to do huge amounts of damage just because we can... we don't have much else to give other than that. I am tired of lackluster legendaries, outdated skills that need to be addressed, and LIs that can be combined (lowered if need be) but removed so the hunter has room to grow as a toon. By losing 4 LIs we could come up with quite a few innovative ways to improve hunters in different paths. I am tired of working around all the small things that are wrong with a hunter because no attention is being paid to the problems with the excuse of "We are fine where we are". No, fix what is wrong, open up the class to other possiblilites, give us some more skills to make us less squishy, and breath some life into a class that gets hunters art and split shot as the new "must have skills". Get rid of stupid skills that make no sense and start talking to hunters who have a vision of something better than the same old same old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    No-one's saying some love isn't wanted badly... the issue with threat is the major sore point, made moreso by demonstrations of what should be possible if it were mitigated. but the biggest thing harming hutners as aclass, currently, are the truckload of people busy whinging to everyone they meet about how poorly off and useless hutners are. THAT is the way you marginalise a class... by shouting vocally about how worthelss they are to everyone. Stop saying it; it isn't true.
    Sorry we see things differently. I made this thread when I had to do some PUGing because I couldn't run with my kin. I noticed what went wrong, and why. The elite few should not, must not, and will not dictate what the toon should become. Ideal situations are not common, they are anything but common for most players. The core of the class needs fixing so that everyday hunters can do well because they control the fate of their class. This is not about top level hunters, it is about the majority of our players and what they experience when they play. If you disagree with me that is fine, express yourself, take on the points, but not as a raiding hunter, or a solo hunter, or a moors hunter,or a small group hunter. Look at the class at EVERY level and see what it can and cannot do. Evaluate what is right about the class and what needs fixing.

    For those who have posted about Limelight, yes we were lucky. I have done the 140k mobs as well... but what if they made them like the elites we are used to? Immune to fear and roots? How would we feel then? The dev's threw us a bone on this area... we may not, and probably will not be so lucky next time.

    Tydalmir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Mar 21 2012 at 05:53 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  18. #118

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by k3nn3th View Post
    *Proceeds to root-kite 5 mobs with Cracked Earth indefinitely while simultaneously keeping two targets permamezzed*.
    Haha. Or DitE kiting plus riddle, plus conj's and various stuns, plus TnG, plus a skill to reset all of those, plus... I'm not gonna go further. You get the point
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  19. #119
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by k3nn3th View Post
    *Proceeds to root-kite 5 mobs with Cracked Earth indefinitely while simultaneously keeping two targets permamezzed*.

    I personally don't count CC that requires personal kiting as part of it as a properly cyclic CC, becuase it demands a large portion of your attention to attned to by itself. Also, CE perma-rooting relies on the (often vain) hope that -none- ofhtose five targets are released fromtheir root by hte reapplication of CE (unless you were meaing by the kiting htat you apply the fresh CE after the root expires, and kite for the count down, in which case, no, that's not cyclic CC at all). It also requires that all five targets remain within tap range of each other at all times... and if Kiting is part of your forumla thee, that's difficult to be certain of.


    Absolutely terrible LMs. Also... really?

    Quite possibly bad LMs, maybe... but they always did hteir job as required of them, so they ere sufficient. he hunter alone also did the same job as required, but mroe smoothly. I'm not making claims over the skill of individual players, simply pointing out that when it comes down to it, it is equiable, not third rate.


    Absolutely terrible Champ, Burg, and RK.

    Do you say that -Because- they were so far outstripped by a good hunter going full bore? If so, you're begging the question and not making a point of anything... one could simply claim opposite that that you've simply never worked with the uppermost escelon of truly good hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    Haha. Or DitE kiting plus riddle, plus conj's and various stuns, plus TnG, plus a skill to reset all of those, plus... I'm not gonna go further. You get the point
    DitE is not cyclic CC, which is what w're discussing here. Conjunctions are not cyclic CC, your burg stuns are not cyclic CC, TnG is not CC, so much as survival aid while kiting somethign that is NOT CCed. What was your point? Burglars have, at the very best, Three perma-locks with a daze, or a perma-daze and a root-lock.... they cannot acess their three-daze lock, and their root lock at the same time, since they require exclusive traiting. (further, the triple daze has a chance-based element to it, and requires that you have a fourth thing to be stabing while you do it.)

    That said, I WILL grant that burg's CCing with their triple daze have an advantage since that's a straight cyclic daze on 30 seconds, and two dazes that last a full minute, with only a little bit of flidding needed to re-do them... leaving the burg a fair chunk of time to contribute to other things.

    Kiting is not CC, as it demands the devotion of your attention in a way that proper cyclic CC does not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    I guess I will start here:

    No, you are a third rate CC machine. I will explain why.. our CC is situational. It depends on the type of mob we are facing.
    No, it doesn't. Only one of the four locks I'm tlaking about requires any sort of type or alignment of the target, being Bard's, which requires Evil. Everything esle doens't care what it's aimed at.

    If it is a mob like many previous elites, then they are immune to root and fear.... there goes a good portion of our CC.
    If they are immune to CC, then all CCers are inthe same boat. Two of the four cyclic CCs I'm talking about are Perma-Dazes, Same as the burg's Riddle and the LMs Flash.

    If they are not animal then we lose a portion of our CC.
    CotP is not cyclic Cc, it's emergency CC, if the creature happens to be appicable. That is the only CC we have that requires beast type as the target, and it's a very, very, very minor part of our repetoir.

    If you get a resist on mobs that you must cycle CC through you have no quick reset button on your skills.
    Our Cc tiemrs are short enough coupled the fact that our CC works from full range, and we have enough panic control options to get by that, while a CC reset would be -nice- it's not necessary. Further, you speak as though a CC resetter on ahalf hour cooldown completely ameliorates all resist problems. It doens't. the rest ofthe tiem, LMs and burgs are in the same boat.

    I will not say that hunters are not viable as CC, they are very good in certain situations, but LMs, burgs and minnies can do it better most times.
    No minnie can provide better Cc than a hunter who knows what they're doing... Ever. Minnies have two CC skills, both of which are highly type-locked, and are not cyclic. They don't get to count as even fourth-rate CC, unless you have them working in -Pairs- on a single target.

    Again we will lose a lot of dps doing this with no other benefits other than the CC. All the buffs/debuffs/healing are lost using a hunter in this role compared to the other CC classes.

    ...

    Yes and that is all they did, dps was sacrificed to have a CC class. That is it pure and simple. You had a need and the hunter was the quick fix. You didn't run this way if burgs or LMs were available did you? I am taking nothing away from that hunter. She showed skill and ability to handle CC when it was needed, yet you went back to your regular makeup when you could. What does that tell you? That was a kin as well, PUGs are not so forgiving. A PUG just needs to break CC once or twice and it will be a wipe because we cannot reset our skills at need. This is the greatest draw back of a hunter slotted for CC.
    And here we hit the crux of it... People saying that it's useless having a hunter as CC, becuase they contribute so much less damage when doing so.

    Is that a problem? When I raid, I generally don't expect my LM to be contributing much damage at all, if any. They're busy with other more important tasks, and any damage they do contribute is incidental to whatever else they're doing, or is contributed in the spare moments when all their other tasks are done.

    If you take a hunter as your CC.... I hate to break it to you... but they are your CC... NOT your DPS.

    What's more, a hunter filling a CC role can still contribute more dps to a fight in their off times than a LM traited for CC can. Yes, we went back to the normal way when our regular CCers were available... but that's becuase the hunters provide better DPS than DPS specced LMs, NOT becuase they were in any way less capable or inadequate for the CC job.

    Also, for the record... no, that situation was not a kin run. My kinship has Three members in it. Three. That's not a raid group. I've run with several pseudo-regular pugs of people who more or less know each other, and now run with a regular group that is very tight, yes... I know the full spectrum of the game and I know that, in a pug, it only take one or two careless, thoughtless palyers to cause a wipe. the thing is, that's true no matter who your CC is... LMs have a CC reset skill... that's not going to save a pug if the CC keeps getting broken.

    Champs can do crazy dps and not have to worry about their threat. They have a skill that they can ACTIVELY use to control the fate of their character. This skill gives them control over a situation. Hunter do not have this so they must rely on other classes to take care of their aggro for them. This now falls to the skill of the players around you.
    Yes, that's called teamwork. In order to shine at our very best and brightest, we need to be able to work with a team, each asisting the other. You're saying that's a bad thing? Yes, champs have a couple of skills actively designed to help with agro management, not only for themselves, but for the entire group... it's one of their very, very valuable tools, often underestimated or forgotten about by less than stellar champs. Does that mean EVERYONE should have that tool? No. I don't think it does.


    So they PUG up and try their luck. Try a few PUG runs and see how it goes. You will see so much desparity between runs it will make you run back crying to your kin.

    I do PuG, thankyou, and I know that they can be problematic. I also know that assessing the levels of your teammates and reacting accordingly is an important part of pugging with unknowns; a skill most don't like trying to learn... If you cant' tell, don't assume that a peson knows someting they might not. Explain what needs explaining, and help folk understand why they must do what they must. Most pugs can be helped to find voctory, provided the few people wiht more experience inhtem are prepared to take the time to help them get there. Many experienced palyers don't have that patience... so the PuG goes badly, and they get even more wrathful at "bad PuGs".


    Sorry we see things differently. I made this thread when I had to do some PUGing because I couldn't run with my kin. I noticed what went wrong, and why. The elite few should not, must not, and will not dictate what the toon should become. Ideal situations are not common, they are anything but common for most players. The core of the class needs fixing so that everyday hunters can do well because they control the fate of their class. This is not about top level hunters, it is about the majority of our players and what they experience when they play. If you disagree with me that is fine, express yourself, take on the points, but not as a raiding hunter, or a solo hunter, or a moors hunter,or a small group hunter. Look at the class at EVERY level and see what it can and cannot do. Evaluate what is right about the class and what needs fixing.

    I, too, am sorry that we think and feel differently: I feel that hunter is a class that should be played with skill and thought... that the majority of poor hutners should not be the ones pandered to, and that the calss shold never become or get turned into the thoughtless faceroll with no complexity to it, that msot hutners, especially many in this thread, seem to be claiming it already is... and, most shockingly, seem to WANT it to be that way. That genuinely horrifies me. Call me an elitist if you will; I've played every aspect of this game, mixed with players at all levels and all types of play style. I know most classes inside out and I say... the thing that would improve hunters as a class the most, currently, would be if more hunters set their minds to becomming better at what they are.

    -Niara
    Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain.
    Victim tormented, Abused and Broken; Rise from the ashes and Hunt once again.
    And Vengeance Be Thy Oath.

  20. #120
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    480

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Hunters aren't 'broken' but they work because of 'make do' fixes. We need a good 're-imagining'. What exactly should be the Hunters strengths and weaknesses and how does that fit in with the other classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Their range and ability to work with said range is a more potent tool than most give credit for. It's a form of extension that allows breathing space both geographically and, just as important, chronologically.
    Entirely true, our range is awesome... when you get to use it. But let's face it, in a lot fights where things actually matter (ie. instance/raid bosses) you find yourself grouped up with the 20m range LMs, RKs and Minstrels because you're either in a small space, have spawning adds that you don't want to run 40m away from the tanks, the boss does distributed damage or most damage is full-area anyway.

    Our range shouldn't become a weakness in instance fights just because it's great to be able to pull a solo mob 40m away. Mitigations, self-heals or bubbles are always good to have, range is a situational advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Further, their CC capability is not 3rd rate, as people keep saying.. it's jsut that few hutners know how to work it well, or bother trying to learn. A skilled hunter playing totheir CC can control and occupy 4 CC targets simultaniously and permanently, with actual CC. No other class can boast this.

    Several times back in Ost Dunhoth, we didn't have our LMs for their CC, they couldnt' make it, or were absent. In their place, one (only one) of hte hutners traited full CC and used her CC bow isntead, to fill both LMs CC jobs. She did it admirably, and in fact, it was -easier- with her doing so than many of our runs with the LMs handling CC. More sore was missing their debuffs, of course, but the CC aspect was a breeze with a single dedicated hutner, more than with Two LMs. We are NOT second rate CC.
    There's one single issue with our CC: It's less reliable... and that's deadly for a CC class. In situations where CC matters, you need to be able to rely 100% on it. Yes we've got great CC potential but being able to use it is a whole different story.

    Traps are by design iffy to use in groups: They require the group to work around it, leaving it alone or moving whatever you want trapped in the right direction and moving out of range. Positioning is usually tricky enough without traps...

    Fears are our forte, but don't match up to mezzes: Mobs run around risking running them into AoE, they can run out of sight, making it difficult to predict their return and can activate another mob.

    And our legendary mezz requires 2 legacies and a good bunch of Finesse to be on par with Blinding Flash or Riddle in terms of BPE/Resistance and ability to chainmez.

    And even then virtually all CC skills have an induction, making it difficult to react immediately requiring a group to adapt and reposition. And if any of them fail, we have at least 2 seconds reaction time before we can come with an alternative solution, making Misses/Resists even worse.

    And icing on the cake: Our one, most awesome, instant, highly reliable CC skill (Rain of Thorns) has become superfluous in most situations because it's often easier, faster and safer to just AoE a bunch of mobs down.

    Since we're giving examples: A while ago I was on Hunter-CC duty in ToO and my Explosive Arrow missed. Being the good hunter I am, I immediately followed up with Bard's, but despite that, the target still ran straight into the AoE ball, the Fear went off and it ran out, so I could Mezz it out of range. Now, that's pretty much the perfect scenario for a missed Mezz, but obviously the raid leader was asking afterwards what the heck my Troll was doing so close to his group. If I'm on my LM, it gets to move no more than 2 steps before I'm able to lock him down with either a stun or a CtV-reset and second mezz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Lastly, we don't "barely" eke out a win over other classes in single target output. We anihilate other classes in it, when we are able to go at full throttle.... that last clause is usually the problem, since we're limited bythe threat barrier, just like everyone else; the unfairness being that other classes have more potent methods of ducking under it than we do. However, today, for example, in Lighting, we had a rare opportunity where the hutners -could- go full bore for the fight and not pull threat... the results were quite spectacular: of Kalbak's 1.4 million, one hunter was responsible alone for over 500k of it, the second was responsible for a little over 600k... that leaves 300k between the rest of the group, including a champ, burg and RK who were all Dps. The fight lasted about 6 minutes.

    It seems that Turbine are interested in giving us ways to really push out limits too, since the mechanic that allowed it was not broken EoB (which our group refused to use, out of fairness), but raher the warden's assailment conviction, which, amidst all the warden bugs and breaks, is NOT one of the things considered broken, non-functional or bugged.
    That's something just about everyone agrees on: we're in a good spot when it comes to DPS. As for your example, we had a similar situation where the DPS RK parsed about 600k... it depends a lot on individual equipment, buffs present and experience. Not to mention that 10% of whatever anyone did can be attributed to the Burglar. That doesn't mean our DPS is bad, it just isn't amazingly better than the competition on it's own.


    Basically it's a recurring theme: All of our specific strengths are rather situational. We have great range, but can't use it in most difficult fights. We've got huge CC potential, but unlocking it requires the right situation (space, a good group, no misses, good equipment), in all other situations it's next to useless. Our DPS is superb, but not consistently better than every other DPSer out there, only in favourable situations.
    Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others...
    [URL="http://thewesternalliance.org"]The Western Alliance[/URL], Laurelin
    [i]"The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."[/i]

  21. #121
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
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    891

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    The biggest problem with hunters is the hunter community. Ask 5 different hunters what is wrong with the class, and you'll get 7 different answers and 4 fist fights.

    Yet everyone who doesn't think there's anything wrong with the class are all united.

    Who does better DPS? Who does better CC? These are specious arguments with answeres that are so complex that they are universally impossible to accurately debate. Which was the best geared? Which used the most efficient rotation? Which player had the best reflexes? Which player keyboard turned vs mouse turned? Who employed the best overall tactics in the encounter? Who was appropriately buffed? Which debuffs on the monster helped which class the most? Who was using the gear the monster was most vulnerable too?

    All questions you'd have to answer before you can even begin to say one of these classes were better than the other.

    You also have to slog through an avalanche of hyperbole, misinformation, and outdated facts. In OD were hunters superior to LM's and Burgs in the CC department? Assuming you could answer the questions above as both were equal, then yes Hunters were. Distracting Shot could mezz nature and Dead. LM's couldn't mezz dead and Burgs couldn't riddle nature. BUT THEY CAN NOW.

    A Hunter shot me with a HS for 12k, obviously hunters don't need buffs. But did you know that that same hunter who shot you for 12k on the HS one time over that 4 hour playing period also got positively destroyed in maybe dozens of other encounters, because that hunter is going to hit that 12k HS ONCE in a day?

    Hunters have a 40 meter range. The only place where a 40 meter range is applicable is landscape questing. Are we balancing the game now for landscape questing effectiveness? If a player cannot get through landscape quests baring Limlight Gorge MAYBE or on level Dol Dinen, you don't need to be buffed, you need to be deleted.

    Instances rarely have spaces large enough to take advantage of 40 meters. And in a fellowship or raid environment, if you are 40 meters away from the mob, that means you are also 40 meters away from the tank! You pull aggo at 40 meters and you're going to have 39 meters worth of building aggro on that mob. In PVP 40 meters isn't of value, the creep runs away. In PVP the only value of this range is when you are close to the creep and the creep is trying to run away and he has to run 30 to 39 meters away from you under fire. That's the only time 40 meters is of value. But in PVP if the creep is trying to run away, you've already won anyway.

    The hunter community also seems to lock onto fads. Now it seems we need a new threat drop, that's the fotm; that will fix the class. This past winter is was doing something with bright campfire. Before that it was Hunters Art. And before that it was Split Shot. Before that it was a group-wide poison purge. All secondary nonsense to what is truly at issue with the class.

    Come on hunters, use your brains and figure out what is truly at issue with the class. Post it and hammer on it. Be united; even you foolish hunters who think you're so leet there's nothing wrong with the class, realize that any changes will just be of benefit to you to and try and help, as opposed to be a hindrance.

    Be united and be vocal and be accurate in the issue. Hunters are quite obviously fighting an uphill battle to get the class some changes. In order to get them through, you're going to have to change the way you're currently doing this or more of the same can be expected because quite obviously turbine doesn't feel the need to listen to you or care if you are enjoying their game or not.

  22. #122

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    We need another thread similar to Estranger's back a while ago, asking hunters to give suggestions then tallying up the replies. *looks around for hands raised*
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  23. #123
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    71

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    By preforming the way it was made to function it only serves to destroy itself.
    Humans. Enough Said.
    Dwarrowdelf: Belgran Level 75 Elf Hunter Rank 3
    Beloin Level 36 Rune Keeper
    Belgarn Level 25 Warden

  24. #124
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    71

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I agree with everything, except tearing it all down. I've worked really hard to make my hunter the way he is and I am still working. So yes, tear down a lot of things, but not all of it, I rather would like to keep my 75 hunter who is my main and only toon at the cap.
    Dwarrowdelf: Belgran Level 75 Elf Hunter Rank 3
    Beloin Level 36 Rune Keeper
    Belgarn Level 25 Warden

  25. #125

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    The hunter community also seems to lock onto fads. Now it seems we need a new threat drop, that's the fotm; that will fix the class. This past winter is was doing something with bright campfire. Before that it was Hunters Art. And before that it was Split Shot. Before that it was a group-wide poison purge. All secondary nonsense to what is truly at issue with the class.
    They are not fads, they are related issues. HA and SS were discussed a lot because they are useless slaps in the face introduced amidst a raft of nerfs as if they somehos compensated. That our dev actually thought they were in any sense useful enough to represet an overall improvement was probably a bit of an eye-opener to how out of touch with the class he was.

    We have simply moved onto other concerns because those two shots are not the only problems. As the impact of mitigation changes have become more apparent and the extent to which all other no-warden classes have been buffed it is natural that we have focused on new suggestions.

    Our pitiful self heals (one of which involves being in melee at a time when medium armour changes mean we are very vulnerable) are an obvious concern as they are feeble compared to other classes.

    We focus on aggro dumping because aggro is the one thing that holds us back from being able to practically use our one advantage. We are not the top dog dps in groups as we have to self-nerf our dps to be effective in a way others do not. We have to sacrifice our range advantage to take advantage of guardian aggro tools when in the past we could use our range to pull aggro deliberately in the knowledge we had melee survivability to handle it.

    Apart from a few who seem to think we're fine I think we have been remarkably consistent in our views.

    Sure - a top line hunter, with top line raid gear can still be super-awesome. I think our general point is that the recent changes to the hunter and changes to the gameplay system have seen other classes improve so much that their usable (often secondary) dps in groups practically matches ours while bringing their primary skills to the table. Meanwhile we lack a secondary role that can be used effectively without severely compromising our dps.

    From what I can see it takes a top-of-the-range hunter to do what an average example of another class can do. The widespread perception that other dps classes are more desirable in groups isn't due to hunters bad mouthing themselves its due to the fact that other classes are more desirable. Champs, minstrels, RK's and burglars all do great dps now while bringing other skills as well.

    We bring great dps we can only sporadically use.

    Compounding all of this is a Dev who not only does not engage with the community he actually did a prima-donna flounce-out when his last proposals met with resistance.

    He simply has not come out looking well in the last 12 months and in my opinion these actions and inactions combined with his demonstrated lack of feel for the class means we'd all be better off with a new dev.

 

 
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