I think it continues to be a misconception that to maximize group single target DPS, add a hunter or Champ. The math, as currently implemented by Turbine does NOT bear this out. A Hunter or Champ will by themselves add more single-target DPS than a Burglar. But a Burglar isn't single toon DPS. Throw up Reveal Weakness and Counter Defence on that single target (stackable with slight DR from other Burg(s)), and all of the sudden The Guard's damage also goes up X%, as does the LMs, the Champ, the hunter, other Burg, Captain.....well you get the idea. As I always point out, if talking single-target there was a clear reason why 12 Burgs were setting speed records on things like the Turtle, not 12 Champs or 12 hunters. And by "setting" I mean annihilating with not even a close second. As I mentioned in that thread, http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...e-current-time I think hunters need a better reason than DPS to make them more desirable in groups. A better buff or debuff of sorts. There's still some content that favours ranged DPS, some parts of Saruman, Lightning T2, comes to mind, etc., but not a lot.
Here's my current thinking on hunters from the point of view of the different classes I play (and not 100% serious).
- Burglar. Vaguely aware of arrows also hitting my target. This switches to annoyance when my DPS goes to zero and I have to chase said target half-way across the room to where a hunter is.
- Guard. Please wait.....Please wait..... Phew. $%$^^&!! Would it KILL you to get within Whirling Retaliation range???!!!! This would help us BOTH out!
- Minstrel. Dang it. Chasing the hunter again. GAH!!!! Get it away from me, it has a frontal AOE!! Where's the Guard? Will she get it back? Do I blow TS? If the hunter still dies it might be on me then.....oh.....moot point. I'll pop FH and Rally him up....
- Hunter. What the !!! Oh....still have my PvP trait and skill set-up....what I thought was poison clear was actually low-cut. Oops. Yeah...Don't PvE raid hunter much any more.
- LM. You want what? Sorry, tanks and healers get SI, not you. That goes for power too sunshine.
- Captain. Newest addition. Haven't grouped enough for a solid read. Do know that Revealing Mark on whatever the hunters are hitting is not a terrible idea. Still working on my rez deed though, so I might be a bit slow on shouting something away from a hunter.
Parahelion - Burg, Krustii - Champ, Shurmann-Cappy, Tommac-Min, Lazarrus-LM, Thromdir-Hnt, Theodolan-Grd, Kozzmeaux - Bear - Dancing in the Dark kinship.
Wrecks - Warg - The Black Blade
So that should clear up the introductions, the class has FLAWS. It is not well thought out, there are definite core problems with the class. You can argue that I don't know my class... that is fine, but deal with the points. Hunters due to high Physical Damage and Crits are built to do spike damage, which can happen at ANY time, so this means we are burst damage dpsers. I am well aware of watching the tank and knowing my aggro threshhold, but a series of crits or devs will cause spike aggro that I cannot control. Unless you want us to sit and hit quick shot all day you will get a 6-7k dev on blood arrow from time to time. ISB can dev or crit all three and if that happens a hunter can do...... nothing...... we can try and hit BN and hope the tank (even a good one) can retake the lead or we can warn our healers to start pumping in the heals because it is going to get messy. Now that is the IDEAL... situation where you are working with a group that knows what it is doing, talking to each other and is well equipped. Why does my class rely on the best case situation to be successful? Many others here see that this is a problem that needs addressing. No other class needs to walk the line like we do. We require an aggro dump or transfer for times like these.... make it on a longish cooldown, I don't care, but ANY hunter can have an unlucky string of crits/devs and it will pull aggro. Fleetness and Needful are burst skills because they allow more shots per fight, often causing more damage than the red line spike damage... the tidal wave stance using your analogy. Still by this admission more dps = more threat, more threat = more aggro, less BPE due to finesse and bow chants now cause more aggro spikes meaning even precission and sometime endurance is not a sure thing to manage your aggro.
Now I want you to parse something for me... hit fleetness, pop needful, hit burn hot, refocus and open with hunter's art. With them all running, do you best rotation and see what your numbers look like. They will be the highest they can be at any time. Our best dps can be found in the 10 or so seconds you can squeeze out of this set up. Using all the dps adding skills, speed skills at the opening of the fight... it can never be repeated until the fight ends. Other classes can do this, they are not locked into the first moments of a fight to preform their very best dps. If a hunter was crazy enough to do this there is not a tank in the world that would hold or retake aggro... I am not saying to do this, but why is my class not allowed to do the best it can even when it is limited to the first 15 seconds of a fight? Why give us these skills if they cannot be used because it will lead to the death of the hunter doing it? Other classes can open this way, recreate it in the middle or end of a fight, why are hunters different? There is a problem with the skills. They do not fit the class because they limit the job it is supposed to do.
Beneath Notice is not the answer, change the skill to transfer aggro and we are golden. But our dev doesn't understand this or the inner workings of the class well enough to see this. Quick shot in endurance is a aggro neutral skill... it does nothing to remove aggro, it simply lets you have a shot that will not add to your threat level. This was not as big a problem before ROI where crits and devs didn't happen on the scale they do now. Even in endurance crits and devs cause spike aggro which can still pull aggro to a hunter thinking they are doing the right thing by hitting BN, changing stance and spamming Quick Shot.. yes even auto attack will do this in case you are wondering. Now the hunter has done everything he or she could do and it can still pull aggro. That is a flaw in the skill set, the player did everything correctly, yet it will not change the outcome. This is NOT the player's fault.
The hunter was most definitely to be a melee class threat when it was designed. The description in the lore book not only said this but early hunters didn't have the stand off skills they have now. In the early books hunters needed to finish off mobs at melee range or wait for the trap cool down to reset to pull the next mob. Multiple pulls were devistating to early hunters. The devs have steadily moved away from this aspect of the game. Why, well champs, cappies, wardens, burgs, ect... these all live at melee range, so not to step on toes we have moved to more of a ranged only toon. While I am not calling for a hybrid stance I know many early hunters built that way... and enjoyed playing that style. Is it something that would work today, who knows, but if we do some major overhauling of our LI, skills and Legendaries it might not be a bad thing to look at.
Hunters will never equal LMs or Burgs in CC for one reason .. no resets if there is a resist. I never said that a hunter is not good at CC, some are very good, but they are third string. By traiting that way hunters will fall behind champs, burgs, and dps rks in the dps race. Some lms will give us a run as well so nothing I said was untrue. We fall to a third string CC and 4th place dpser if we slot this way. Couple that with no buffs/debuffs and why would a hunter be the best choice for the group? In PVMP pots make a yellow line hunter almost ineffective. With the introduction of audacity (thanks ZC!) it will limit our dps along with our CC. With no healing or morale boost hunters will be worse off in the moors compared to every other class. The armour bonuses look like they were chosen in a game of drunken darts... paste them on a wall and whatever shows up is what we use.
Where is the dev who knows the way our class functions? Why would they choose these if they had ANY understanding of the class? Why are small fixes still holding back my class? Those who may know aren't talking.
The problem is we are building toward lines.... that is a mistake. Lines are meant to enhance the core of the class. If a stripped down hunter can preform his or her job without all the bells and whistles then the class as a whole is sound and solid. I am saying we need to find the core of what a hunter is, give them skills to be successful at that job, and THEN diversify into the lines. When the core skills are flawed you will only do more damage to the class by fixing the lines. This is what has happened for the last few books.
The hunter core skills need: an aggro dump, a reliable heal, better mits/armour/survivability, revamped and updated skills...
not a lot to ask really. We can then work on each line to make the hunter flexible, but you cannot build on an unstable base. Many of us have seen these flaws and have worked around them, accepted them, or have fallen victim to them for too long. Fix the class! We should not have to work harder than all the other classes to make our toons successful.
Added to address another point: Many hunters have done elite mobs at 65 the list has fallen quite a bit after the armour and mit reductions of ROI. Hell, Skybreaker was the measuring stick at one time, but things have changed. Case in point try Rockwithers in the moors. It is a 70k mob, you can fear it, trap it, slow and daze him. It is the easiest of the mobs to take on at that level because he doesn't hit super hard and you can use every skill you have to do it. Even with these advantages it is not an easy mob for a hunter to take on his own. Go to an outpost and solo the 140k mob there. Can you take down these mobs with the changes, no you can't. Mobs hit you now for 1/4 to 1/3 your morale now and that is non crit. We cannot survive taking on mobs that can hit this hard. IF the mobs in the new gorge are even partially CC immune no hunter will be able to take them solo. We are not raiders, soloers, groupers, or PVMPers we are hunters. Skills that benefit all are the ones we are looking for, not catering to one style or the other.
Last edited by Tinluen; Mar 11 2012 at 05:55 PM.
Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!
Until people actually stop insulting those that don't think as they do and pointing the finger at each other nothing is going to be resolved. The devs will not bother investing any time in this class so long as this constant back and forth of "you are stupid" and "we are not" continues on these threads.
"There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee
Now, I'm retracting my previous statement of needing six to be optimal, in fact that's bordering excessive (that's just how I play) but I wouldn't drop to less than four ever. Five would be fairly easy to do, four much harder, three impossible without gimping something. Whether or not you could get it to five or four would depend on the ages of the items involved, among other things. You could be acceptable with three, in the same way a hunter can be acceptable with two, but not in all ways optimal by definition.
Most RKs I know, incidentally, do not care about being optimal. They choose whether they would rather trait fire or lightning to DPS, and gimp or outright ignore the other, or they decide they don't like healing, and ignore that. To choose to be equally good at all three, which is required to be optimal in all situations, you need more than three LIs.
The curse of playing an RK is that since we have three distinct trait lines, we are capable of having our LIs tailored to meet our needs in each of those trait lines exactly, so those of us who are interested in maximizing our effectiveness in each will do so. Obviously it's not necessary to be effective, but it is necessary to be optimal, which is what this discussion is about.
I'm not casting any aspersions on your friend by the way; I'm sure he's very good at what he does, and I'm sure he knows enough about the class to have tailored his three LIs to be perfect for his needs. Go ahead and ask him if he has every single damage or healing increasing legacy maxed though, and he will not claim that he does.
By "right rotation" I meant using all my highest DPS skills at the same time. I can do that on my RK even while using fire if I want to. Also, by "Your skills innately drop threat" you mean our skill, singular, innately drops threat. We have one of those. It is useful, but far from a cure all for threat problems, which we currently do have, and which will soon get much worse."With the right rotation" you pull threat off tanks? That seems counterproductive to me. Your skills innately drop threat (don't go for the "but when I use lightning... argument because it's not valid. Lightning is not a group trait line. Fire is. Fire drops your threat.) whereas most of our skills somehow always seemed geared to pull aggro (see my burst damage argument in the amazingly long post above ). Yes, you may have aggro problems, but the fact remains, ZC chose to improve the already very capable class of the RK instead of fixing the sadly high number of borked hunter skills in U6. Your problems may be valid, but ours are indeed more pronounced. We are the baby who needs the candy more, but somehow ZC saw fit to, as I've said before (and I like the way I said this!), tune up the bugatti RKs over the rotting chevy in the backyard, the hunters.
Anyway, as I mentioned in the other thread, every person thinks the class they play needs the attention of the devs more. After the minstrel update and the issues introduced with RoI, RKs needed help with healing, objectively speaking. Hunters have their problems, but you are still able to fulfill your primary roll of ranged DPS to the fullest extent required in raids. Hunters will get their problems addressed eventually, just wait your turn.
[center]Toltrandor - Rune-keeper | Telcharan - Lore-master | Vorhedar - Warden | Halthinian - Hunter (mostly retired)[/center]
What a wall of text, never read so much since school!
All comments should be based on what an average hunter can do.
95% of lotro content is relatively easy for any hunter-or any class for that matter.
BUT:- our usefullness in top end content raids has certainly diminished compared to other classes as they get usefull improvements while the hunter has not had anything usefull for many updates.
On the moors, I stand in awe watching what other classes are capable of in terms of surviveability, dps or cc, hunters are the bottom of the pile there.
we are in desperate need of meaningful improvements from a developer who understands the class and who will take on some of the sugestions made previously.
So how is this fixable? Well start off by updating our inductions to the current pace of combat. A blanket 10 or 15% reduction while balancing power cost and base damage. Then make our dps lines clear cut different players. Make the red line less spiky, get rid of the crit multipliers and turn them into crit ratings, scrap the big hitter stuff. Move power restoration, Enduring Precision and cooldown reductions from blue to red and the crit multipliers from red to blue. Add traits to the blue line that increase the effect of our 'bursts' like NH, BH etc but on a longer cd. Use the emptied line bonus for an effect like all melee skills have a chance to add focus and a melee skill with ranged damage debuff. Introduce a bubble to counter our current survivability and give it a shorter cd on 4 blue and a threat reduction on 4 red. That would give us 2 clearly distinct dps lines: One focussed on keeping small buffs up as long as possible, small crits but often and pure ranged damage. And one that builds on short but heavy bursts of ranged damage complemented by a few melee buffs and debuffs and higher crits.
This obviously is a bit of a makeover but would allow proper separation of group and solo performance. We need high bursts and damage reduction in solo or some instances, but would be able to achieve that without sacrificing our potential for sustainable dps or introducing permanent threat trouble because that is part of another trait set.
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others...
[URL="http://thewesternalliance.org"]The Western Alliance[/URL], Laurelin
[i]"The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."[/i]
Dropping back in for a moment, becuase the gauntlet was thrown about a few times in comment to hunter's ability to do things as a class... the new Limlight area was mentioned several times.
Well, I got there yesterday with my hunter and had a look about, did all the quest chains as far as I can see... Yes solo, no I didn't struggle too much.
70ks are a breeze, the 140 nemisi each have a "trick" that maks them more challenging than the 70s, but entirely dealable. Ghamp and Gank (160K) were a joke, and not particularly challenging at all. I've soloed far worse and harder at various points in this game, relatively spekaing to my condition at the time.
If you can't solo this area as a hunter, then take a step back and think about your options, and how to appraoch it;
Sure, it may have taken me 6 or 7 minutes to get through 160k of troll, because a certain level of care and co-ordination was needed... but that's also still faster than it takes some.
Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain.
Victim tormented, Abused and Broken; Rise from the ashes and Hunt once again.
And Vengeance Be Thy Oath.
Preface and disclaimer: The gist of what I'm about to post may have already been said already. If so, I apologize. I did not have enough time to read the entire five pages, and just skimmed over the major points.
However, on with the show!
I have an RL friend who plays a champion occasionally. Sometimes when we're casually chatting LotRO will come up and then we'll start arguing about whose class is better. Before RoI, I could match him in pretty much all the arguments he brought up, and had the spars to prove it (I beat him several times on-level). Post-RoI, I've found that I'm totally outmatched in terms of numbers. Even from the standpoint of disregarding aggro, the raw DPS numbers don't add up. He can consistently and easily DPS higher than me and survive longer than me, as demonstrated by a recent spar (more detail later). Remember, Champions were conceived as a DPS class too. But not a single-target DPS king of the hill type class like hunters, but an AoE DPS class. Pre-RoI, those were the roles we had. Sure, he had more AoE dps, but I could always fling single target numbers back at him. Post-RoI, that's changed. Hunters get utterly owned in the survivability department - I'm 75, wearing relatively decent gear for DPSing, all post-Moria. He comes back from another game, level 68, wearing Moria gear, and challenges me to a spar. I lose. I used to beat him on-level pre-RoI. Now he beats me post-RoI 7 levels below me, wearing above-average gear from 8 levels below that. This is ridiculous. Hunters fail at their primary role - if you can't survive you can't do damage - and are also bereft of any utility that might make them slightly more useful in a group other than the ability to do most of their damage from range. I agree with the OP. This class needs to be fixed and soon. I don't doubt that the devs are dedicated, they just need to take a long, hard, clear-headed look at the hunter class and consider everything from the ground up.
Hey Harla what's your trick for the 140kers? I agree with your statement about the 70kers, they aren't quite a breeze I would say, but quite doable. I can do the 160k trolls, but not the huorns or spiders. The huorns' choking roots get me caught in a bad spot while I'm kiting around a rock or something like that usually, and both times I've attempted to spiders I've had the misfortune of accidentally getting caught with the 2k DOT from the little ones, or the big spider rooting me and taking a chunk off my hp.
RIP Milkmefondly 2014
With the huorns, Their "trick" is, as you say, the binding root, though more for the damage than the bind.
For them and nemesis spiders, (and the double trolls of the prospectors quest), I trait trapper, to give myself more CC options.
It's about nulling your face time withthe tree, and minimising your damage sources... the tree alone, I play wiht the Cc to make sure it enve actually gets any face time with me at all... this trick you're probabyl familiar with. when I get a binding root, I immediately Cc the tree, regardles sof where in my nomral Cc cycle I am, and take a breahter to recover.
The dangerous point is when you get a bind and root at the same time, ebucase that's two incomming damage sources. As before, I immedieatly CC or re-cc the tree, regardless of wher ein its cycle I am, and nuke the root rihgt away. Usually, if I get unlucky enough to get a root and abind at once, I need to use a potion, jsut to get by.
I also use earhtborn and use that for whatever small amounts of top-off recovery I can muster at every opportunity. if I've taken damage.
For the spider nemesis, I trat the littlies like death-machines. i consider that if i get touched by one of htem, I'm toast... so, when fighting, I -always- madke sure that I'm stnaidng onthe edge of atrap, usually at my back angle, so that if the spider has enough active time to summon one, I can make sure it never gets to me, ieven if it comes as a surprise. I lock the big spider, if a little one comes up, make sure it gets trapped before reaching me, back to range and nuke it before it can get to me, then resume.
As with all of the biggies down there, as a hunter it's -key- to prevent them from getting ANY face time with you at all. You can't afford it.... so that means you have to be spot on and efficinet with your CC. If they hae -no- fae time at all, then they'll evntually reset... but if they reach you and start an animaiton, that counts enough forhte reset clock, so nail your CC perfectly to interrupt them o hteir first attempt to hit you every few times. Like when the troll lens bakc to swing, then catches bard' inthe face before the downswing comes... he attakced you... but didn't.
Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain.
Victim tormented, Abused and Broken; Rise from the ashes and Hunt once again.
And Vengeance Be Thy Oath.
Tried them with both dps and CC builds. The latter takes me too long to dps the roots and the former leaves me low on morale.
I'm really missing a trick somewhere (apart from only being a second age, 4 Draig armour pieces type of casual hunter). Is there something I'm meant to be interrupting to stop roots?
But the fact that some elite hunters can do it all is kind of beside the point when other classes I've watched just seem able to walk up to these things and bish-bosh away.
It's not that we are powerless - it's that we've been left further behind the curve in the last 12 months and it takes an elite player and a well-equipped raid toon busting a gut to do what average toons of other classes do.
The mitigation and armour changes have hit hunters almost as hard as Wardens. We have become easy to kill, while our only asset - the dps derived from the stat cap lift - has become more dangerous to use in group situations. This has made our limited self heals and almost non-existent aggro management tools even more inadequate even leaving aside the proliferation of such facilities among other classes over the same period.
It's great that the trapper line has some limited utility for soloing limelight gorge (at great cost to dps) but it doesn't change the fact it is mostly useless for grouping.
It needs a radical rethink, along with a lot else about the hunter as it stands even if some of you can work minor miracles.
Last edited by Kongas; Mar 19 2012 at 11:16 AM.
i read in someone's post that waiting what, 30 seconds before you join the fight? thats around 30k+ damage you are giving up just because you want to burst. I've always started off in endurance and when the tank pulls, i wait a few seconds and fire off barb arrows and quick shots. Its usually fine if the tank kinda knows what he is doing. after the first 10 seconds or so, i then switch to precision and actually start dpsing. You should always have stealthy shot anyway- its like being on endurance despite precision stance enabled. Overall, i think they DO need to do something about hunter threats...too often have i just sat there and fired quick shots because swift bow and focus shots pull aggro if they dev in succession. Thats why i maxed quick shot crit legacy on my bow- so i dont lose too much dps just firing quick shots and stayin low for a bit before i start up again.
Fellowship Hadacar: I now have a mental image of a little pea with a NE Patriot's logo painted on it.From Dwarrowdelf to Arkenstone
Since you're curious (I'll stop the derail soon, I promise), I do go full trapper for handling the 140 trees, and 140 spiders, and the quests that demand fighting two or three trolls at once.
What follows is a discussion in a little more detail on how these fights can be approached by a solo hunter... if that's of no interest to you, I appologise, and please feel free to skip it.
It's not that you're missing anything with the roots and the binding from the trees, it's more... contingency planning, I suppose. In a fight like that, you really have to think more like a LM than a hunter... So, as an example, here's what it's like: Starting off at full rnage, focus up and burst etc... in Str, for hte slow from Qs, and keep that slow up the whole time that the tree is active... The tree will close to melee with you, generally, maybe after taking a pop or two from rnage first. as it reaches you, lay out a distract and hustle back the way it came your full range... then use SotE if you've taken any damage thus far.
Rinse and repeat that if nothing else is going on... but most importantly, since you're trading on the strenght of your CC, let the Daze run its full course, and only break it (with a Qs for the slow) when the clock is on zero.
So, a Root happens when it woke up this time... rather than closing to melee, it summoned a root on you; first reaction you have, before the little root agroes and attacks you, re-CC the tree; Bard's will do. In the 20 seconds you've got with that, kill the root, SotE if it's up, potion if you need to and it wouldn't be wasted, then realign your positioning to resume your cycle when bard's wears off, opening again with a Qs slow.
Suppose insted it gives you a binding root; the nasty bleed... as before, same thing, immediately Re-CC the tree. you can't stop the bleed, but take that phase as down time to heal and just cope with it... can't afford to risk the tree in your face while it's bleeding you wiht the binding root.
That's really it though, careful timing, and a conscientious mind towards keeping control of the fight. You can get unlucky... too many resists or CC fails and you'll be in trouble, however, Bard's is your emergency CC, and generally you'll only be in a real pinch if you hae double resists, or else a resist/miss -As- you're dealing with either a root or a bind. In those cases you can get a bit creative to draw out the time until you're next Cc is recovered... If it's coming right for you and nothign to stop it, for example, get off a Qs slow, then run to meet it with Daze; keep running, and pass through out to range while it's down for a few seconds, then re-slow it and continue backing off.... by the time it reaches you, your CC should be ready to try again.
Trolls are much easier since you have your traps to work with as well (the traps don't go so well with trees, since they're just as comfortable attacking at range) the nasties ttroll bit is the ore veins, which have you fight two, then two, then (!) Three.
Now, as a trapper hunter, you can manage this, but especially for the three, it requires a lot of precision, and I really mean alot. If you have a Trapper bow, with legacy for distract, you'll have an easier time of it, but, for this brief note, let's assume not (I didn't have one, so this is how I did it):
One troll can be perma-locked with Distract, count him as out of the picture for now. The second can be perma-locked with your traps; they have no range, so rooting them is fine for you. The last troll must then be the one you kill first, since since it's your patchiest Cc; you need to bounce it solely with Bard's and slows.
Like this, it's simple enough; most hunters can manage a one-troll fght, just bouncing with Bard's, and that's all it is, -except- you need to move about and time your other CC refreshes into the mix; keep distract on troll one, and frequently reposition to trap-lock troll two. The timing is not wide, but it's not exceptionally tight either... it is, however, several things to keep track of at once, so it's easy to make a mistake.
Trap-locking is not something most hunters are used to doing; we rarely ever need to, and it may even seem like a completely novel concept to some... it is, however, a very potent and possibly even superior form of CC where it is appropriate to use. There are tricks to it... firstly, you want to maximise the time between the troll coming loose from the last root, until he hits the next trap... obviously, the trap must be between you and him, and in such a way so to not risk getting tripped by the troll you're bouncing with Bard's. Always remember, the trap lasts for a minute; plan ahead as far as time permits, because it won't time out before it's used... the sooner you drop it, the sooner it will be ready again, and the further from the trapped troll it is, the longer the time before he's hitting it and starting his 30 seconds. As long as you calmly stay ahead of him, it will seem like an almost surreal waltz, in between refreshing your daze on Troll 1, and fighting Troll 3.
As long as you keep ahead of the situation and on top of things, none of the trolls should ever get any momentum; they need actual face time with you to get that, and they shouldn't be getting any. It's here that the fight has the potential to go badly very quickly; momentum build up means less time for you to work with, becuase they're faster, and that's dangerous.
Since you're using all your CC here, you only have two recourses in the case of misses and resists: Dazing-range-slow, as with the trees, and slow-fleetness. Both of these should be just enough for you to panic stretch until your a CC comes up again, though if you're unlucky it may mean that, due to timers, you are forced to change which trolls are being controlled and with what... in the worst cases, the demands of timing after a miss may mean that you are forced to begin fighting a different troll, simply out of the necessity of not allowing any of them to get any face time with you.
Once one troll drops, it's easier again, and you can just cut back the strategy accordingly... I prefer to stop using Bard's first, and continue to trap-lock one troll while using distract as my CC for fighting the second... others may prefer to leave off with the traps in favour of Distract and Bard's.
Out of curiosity... how many Wardens have soloed three trolls at once? **wink** In fact.. has ANY other class soloed three trolls at once?
Spiders, last of all. They don't actually have many tricks over or above their lesser 70k sisters... they have a few things that you shouldn't ever see, due to not giving them the time of day in your face; some of their nasty poisons should never touch you anyway... and even if they do, you can clear them yourself. The real difficulty is the intermittant spawns of the little add spiders.
The one saving grace of the horrid death-machines is that they are predictable in where they come from... that is, you can see them spawning for a good six or seven seconds before they become active. As with other big nasties, the moment the little spiders spawn, re-lock your big spider and deal with the more immediate threat. You'll get two little spiders at worst (sometimes I only get one...), one must be CCed while you nuke the other, but under no circumstnace can you allow either of them to make melee contact with you; your chances of surviving their venom is very slim... as with the multiple trolls, Traps must be your friend here. In fact, traps are an excellent frined indeed for this reason: As a trapper, you can have -Two- traps down on the ground, the whole fight. Each trap lasts for a minute, and the cooldown is only 30 seconds. The spiderlings also spawn quite reliably; they always come from the direction of the large webs. This means that you can pre-empt them comfortbaly, and only have to worry if there's a resist.
Simply, fight your big spider on a line alongside and a little away fomrthe big we wher the littlies will spawn, and, in between CCs on the big spider, maintain two traps on the ground, unused, between the webs and where you're fighting. The spiders will run right for you, so place the traps intelligently; put them one in front of the other by at least half the trap's width and a fair enough distance from where you're fighting to give you time to shoot off an emergency CC in case one of the spiderlings resists the root. When you see them begin their web drop, after you've relocked your spider, position yourself to make sure they hit the traps en route to you.
In the case of both spiderlings resisting their traps int he smae roun,d you may be in serious trouble. Rain of Thorns may save your life here, if you've got it in... I do not at the moment, but I also didn't get that unlucky... lacking that, your only hope is to get your emergency CC on one of them, and kite for you life trying to kill the other one before it can nip you.
An alternative is to pull your nemesis far enough away from the webbing that the little spiders can't -Find- you, and thus cease to be a mechanic... but honestly, that feels like cheating to me, so I don't.
Right so, that's all there is to them.... Very sorry for the long discussion that's only tangentally related to the topic. I'd have put it in spoiler tags to hide it away if I could. I would not have launched into such a discussion if I hadn't done all of these things for myself a few times now, and this is to show that it's entirely doable, even to do things that most classes simply cannot. I make no claim to be the Artemis of hunters... I'm not, I'm sure... but I do think very carefully about my class and how I play it, and I try at every opportunity to squeeze as absolutely much out of it as I can... anyone can do this; it's less about gear and more about method.
Trying to haul this post back on topic now.... would I welcome a theat-modifying skill to help us push harder in groups? Certainly... But do recall that we -Can- function at a constant -20% damage threat in groups if we so choose... Enduance, plus Stealthy Shot traited gives us that... maybe you'll lose out some optimal potential dps, but that's irrelevant since it's a loss of imaginary numbers above and beyond the hard threat limit we're alreayd forced to conform to in groups...
Would I welcome a threat decreaer or transfer ability of some description? Yes, I certinaly would. Do I think that we're in danger of being marginalised out of groups wihtout it? Not by a long shot, if you'll pardon the pun.
Stay positive everyone, and remember; hunter, despite popular opinion, is a class to be played with intelligence, consideration and skill... be proud, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain.
Victim tormented, Abused and Broken; Rise from the ashes and Hunt once again.
And Vengeance Be Thy Oath.
Wow...as a (use to be main and still played loads) hunter and now a (liked the class and now its my main) warden im amazed that u can do the 3 trolls and big spider....as a hunter (i havnt tried) i would expect i could take the 70k mobs with a bit of pratice....as warden i have done all but the 3 trolls and excluding them i would think you would struggle against the rest compared to a warden (i usually dont go below 100% moral at any stage lol) and can kill em quick enuff not to be to boring...the 2 troll were easy!!....3>> i cant get close
BUT back to topic....i love my hunter....questing i look at things and they die....thats anything quests throw at me....i have well less than 5k moral and .... who cares nothing touches me ( and i never use any traps).....in raids when i know the tank i just go as hard as i think i can...if i get aggro then decisions need to be taken....run to tank...nuke it...cc...kite....just choose what option u need ... although it says hunters are a easy/basic class here is a great area to seperate good/bad toons...experience.....single target we still outperform champ/burgs imo...and our cc is great for unplanned stuff in raids as opposed to rk/burgs (who are still good/better).... i however could see some slight improvments....rather than a aggro dump...maybe (kinda like the rk`s ability to see a targets stats) we have a ability to see where we are, or how close to the tank, on the aggro list...not definite numbers (ugly/ not lore/roleplay) but some visual effect on how close we are... that would at least let us go as close to max as possible...rather than in a pug starting in endurance the wondering if we could have gone harder...
in the moors in groups we fit the class description...if we are protected we are zerg busting machines....our ROA and the reset if we crit must annihate big creep groups....and single target thing die quick if focused on....but isolated were dead.....sounds fair (im not huge in pvp but are lvl 6)
so although i dont quite like out Li set up...and in the moors it can get a bit deathy....and really i only use the blue line ( the others just seem worthless, but the blue line works)....i think the hunter seems fine...if there is any problem its in the OP status of other classes....
when i was 50-60 in mirkwood i could almost kill a 20k and could easily do it if i had a person to help me but now that im 75 i shake with fear if i see anything above about 17k hp and i it suddenly pops up in front of me (like say that one fishing quest in galtrev or most instances) im screwed if it has 7k+ but every other class is like, "oh, that guy! haha he was sooo easy!"
what the heck happened with the last few updates!!! a year or so ago (when i joined) we were awesome but now im okay at best.
also i think we need sapience as our dev, he seems to be the most involved of all the devs and does a good all around job
Now if SS actually lowered BN's cool down instead of upping the duration... it might be useful.
Last edited by Bond007; Mar 20 2012 at 12:46 AM.
RIP Milkmefondly 2014
My main is a hunter, yes... we got class issues, OP addressed most of. Skills that have not skalled/changed with the game changing, survivabilityDPS not in line with other DPS classes, or it was the "All classes will have DPS as secondary (if not primary) role now" direction that hit us. And this direction of the game hit us so hard we are no longer the top DPS machine-gun class. Seriously, we are not.
I hunt. I kill.
Warden by destiny, Hunter in the heart.
It's also down to customising your build through virtues. Goes without saying the ones you use regularly should all be at 14. I tend to select for tactical and physical mitigation as well as resistance to boost survivability. Fully levelled second age weapons and a selection of off-hand weapons helps.
When big things get the jump on me then Dazing Blow is my friend. Gives you time to gain the initiative.
Hate to say it but its fairly obvious Turbine wants this class dead. When there's absolutely zero upgrades or fixes for two updates, when the pvp armor set bonuses are lackluster to the point of insulting, when the skills we got from the expansion go unused - except IP - when skills like sote remains broken for a year, when the hunter community and its developer are at each others throats, when our legacies haven't been looked at since the whole system was introduced in MoM, when we have a traitline that the vast majority of the player base uses situationally at best...
What other conclusion can be drawn?
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