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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    424

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eckenbrand View Post
    Tie the campfire to Stance and scale the OOC regen to Cook crafted campfires, increase the radius to Captain banner, useable in combat with current induction or even a slightly increased induction, call it Improved Campfire and stick it somewhere between 50 and 75.

    Your herbal lore as a veteran Hunter has granted you the knowledge to burn certain herbs to boost your and your fellows abilities

    Endurance Stance - Enduring Campfire, provides ICPR and -2% Power cost on ALL skills

    Precision Stance - Precise Campfire, provides +Finesse, reduces Miss chance on ALL skills.

    Strength Stance - Strong Campfire, provides +Might, +Vitality, and +2 Damage on ALL damage skills

    OR

    Campfires named based on whatever herb/ingredient is being used, such as...

    Athelas Campfire - Provides ICMR/Morale healing

    Celebrant water-doused Campfire - Provides ICPR/Power healing
    Wonderful ideas. Why not remove that last line and keep this thread positive and upbeat? The hunter's time will come; it is unreasonable to expect every class to receive major overhauls twice annually.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0220400000001854b/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982798155/"]Palandramir[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Hunter ~[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982929667/"]Talagant[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Minstrel ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/169749/145241087982745229/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Chiton[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Guardian[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#add8e6]
    [/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982729798/"][COLOR=#daa520]Filbert[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6]: 75 Minstrel[/COLOR] [COLOR=#add8e6]~[/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982808928/"] Dakkri[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 71 Guardian ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087983296677/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Stammel[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Captain
    [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983521225/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Elaichi[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 65 Loremaster ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983541171/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Tribble[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 66 Warden ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983630184/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Caper[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 64 Burglar [/FONT][/COLOR]

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  2. #52

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I'd like to see an aoe stun if a mob is in melee range. We're an induction class, if we have more than 2 mobs we have a tough time getting off any real skills. Stun would allow us to either whittle them down to a number we can handle or put some distance between them. RoT is supposed to provide this function, but it's a legendary, on a 5 minute CD and requires focus, so it isn't always available.

  3. #53

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Namesse View Post
    I'd like to see an aoe stun if a mob is in melee range. We're an induction class, if we have more than 2 mobs we have a tough time getting off any real skills. Stun would allow us to either whittle them down to a number we can handle or put some distance between them. RoT is supposed to provide this function, but it's a legendary, on a 5 minute CD and requires focus, so it isn't always available.
    Dazing blow =)
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    74

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    What a great thread. I am a solo player, mainly due to pc issues (crash in groups of 3 or more and can't afford to upgrade), and I find it increasingly difficult to play my main. I have tried builds suggested on the forums but they are mostly from people who raid or really focus on every aspect of the char. Not me, obviously. I find myself dying so quickly now compared to prior-changes, I can't enjoy him anymore.

    I do look forward to the next round of changes and hope to see many of the things posted here, would be awesome. I really love the campfire concept, as it would bring a much more useful purpose for its existence. The lame morale buff skills killed me today, twice. then I get on my champ and say 'why? why can't my hunter have something useful?' Tho he does, it seems to me he is slow at activating skills, loses morale quickly, and has long cooldowns.

    I still love to play him, but my style of play can't get it done right now, at least without help from a kinmate. I look forward to something coming down the road for hunters, and as I said, I hope it includes many of the great ideas all of you have come up with.

    +rep to the op, great post.
    It's me, just me

  5. #55

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    Dazing blow =)
    Make it aoe, guess Whirling Dazing Blow?

  6. #56

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I can't agree with you more when it comes to the aggro management. It simply is not fun to play a DPS class that was to intentionally lower their DPS so not to get aggro. Hunters need to be given ways to manage their threat, the other DPS classes do already.

    My personal idea is to ditch the buffs from Hunter's Art and simply make it a threat reduction over time (similar to the RK's mystifying flame). Another one that I would like to see is a making a skill that can transfer the hunter's threat to a targeted player for a short duration.
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  7. #57
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    Jun 2007
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    Australia
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    710

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelric View Post
    Crowd control is useless against most bosses. Make all crowd control skills for all classes give a debuff of the same duration - tactical mitigation for fears and dazes, physical mitigation for traps and similar. While this alone wouldn't be enough to fix the yellow trait line, something has to be done to make crowd control skills relevant in boss fights, or no changes to our skills there will help.
    I really like the idea of CC skills have de-buffs vs immune 'bosses'.
    I love bards arrow, but when I really need it, it doesn't work!
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  8. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    To answer the Op... worth the ride? No, not particularly... other than to demonstrate by your dissetation here that the person who wrote it exemplifies everything that is bad about bad hunters. The problem is not the class, if these are your complaints: the problem is the player, and a lack of foresight or thinking.

    I will be honest and blunt, but I will try to be as constructive as possible as I answer you. Let's point-for-point it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    As of now hunters are a class built for burst damage,
    Incorrect. Hunters -can- build and set themsevles for burst damage, yes, but generally, that's our SOLO build. In Group work, hunter is all about very high stable and sustainable output... it rises and falls in waves, but they are and remain the top single-taget output class, at a stable level of output, if built for group work.

    yet we cannot shed aggro, we cannot heal ourselves quickly in any significant way, add to that to do the damage we are expeceted to do we must rob Peter (our morale) to pay Paul (our physical damage) and by doing so we get one or two shotted by boss mobs. What rocket scientist created this mess?
    We can regulate and control our agro while maintaining optimum output without pulling threat, at a stable rate, riding right along the threat-damage threshold of the tank without stepping over it. Sure, you could go into a group with a solo mindset, burst-blast yourself in the opening seconds, completely smash over the tank's damage-threat threshold and get yourself mauled... but that's not a fault of the class: it's the fault of the player.

    You, as a hunter, need the baseline of morale; you are in the group of people who take absolutely no damage except the necessary amounts, and thus you stand alongside the other back-liners needing the least morale buffer. Many hunters don't -like- this, and still want to cling to their 9k morale security blanket, but you don't need that. Honestly, if you are tapping 8K, under full raid buffs, then you're absolutely golden. My hunter, for example, runs Orthanc clear through each week, and are working on lighting T2, and Saruman T2 when we have a spare night... Day to day I run with less than 5K morale, and that's ample. In Raid, under full buffs, I'm at about 8K, with only a small sacrifice to my offence optimum... which is fine, since in most cases I can't actually run at complete stable optimum anyway, because it will pass the tank.

    Look at our skills: hunter's art, improved focus, needful haste, fleetness buff..... all meant to increase our dps. All of them on very short timers so that they cannot be used together easily, and all front loading damage in the first 10 - 15 seconds of a fight.
    Incorrect. In SOLO, perhpas you want to maximise your burst, sure, and maybe you might like to tait in a way that doesn't let you have full-time access to your stable increasers... But Fleetness? That's a permanent up, not a burst. NH, that's a half-on, half-off, not a burst. Improved focus? Unless you're nuking an add, then you shouldn't be worrying about that in groups. Arts, also a permanent up, not a burst.

    And NONE of them are "designed" to let you frontload massive burst damage in the first ten seconds of a fight (except focus, which is not a group-focused skill). You CAN use them that way... that's silly, in a group. If you suffer from premature bursting in groups, to the embarrasment of everyone, then that's your problem, not the classes... and I have a friend who might inform you that that have a nasal spray for that now.

    Exactly what we CANNOT do because we will pull aggro from ANY tank out there. Why have the skills in place that create a 10 second damage sweet spot that can ONLY be used by preparing out of combat and not daring to use them becasue you will be yelled at, rezzed and never reinvited to the raid you just joined because you are a hunt ####..... It is not the hunter's fault... it is what we were built to do... let me say that one more time.... it was what we were built to do!
    Yes. Yes it IS the hunter's fault. They were a stupid hunter, who doens't understand the subtle differences between being a hunter in a group, and being a hunter in Solo play. They behaved foolishly, disregarded group dynamic and paid for it, as expected... Yes: it's the hunter's fault.

    If, for example, you insist on bursting at the start of a fight, in a group situation, ON the thing that the tank is supposed to tank... then you DESERVE to get eaten and die. You should also -learn- from that.

    Here's something you might not be aware of, being a red-liner (I can tell from the way you describe your skills). Red line is not the optimal line for damage output. It's the optimal line for biggest individual numbers, yes, but not for overal damage output. Especially not if it leads you to burst and die in the opening moments. If you actually trait for conscientious group work, you can obtain a better overall damage output for any given fight in a group situation, and do so, without being dependant on bursting hard at the start of the encounter.

    Step one, forget about taking advantage of improved focus in group work, unless your inital target in a pull is getting nuked and not tanked. There, now you're no longer nailed in to bursting in the opening 5 seconds.

    Step two: Optimise intelligently. Be aware of your Tank's threat optimum as accutely as you are personally able to be, and push yourself to it without stepping over. Some people can gauge this line better than others, from experience of play and knowing the tank's class well, but either way, the Tank should be able to give you feedback about how well anchored they are. If you really want to be intelligent about it, you can modulate your damage based on what threat skills the tank has used, or had resisted: I keep all my party-member's fliers turned on, and I watch when the tnak uses keynote skills, to see if they stick or resist... if they resist, then their threat will be less seccure. It's easy enough; look that guard is using shield-taunt now... oh, there was no red squiggle over the boss... Shield Taunt was clearly resisted. DESPITE how easy it is to simply keep your eyes open to things like that, that's more effort than most put in, but even so, having a feel for the threat level is not difficult, and respecting it is important in groups.

    So, premature bursting is not what WE were built to do... it's what you choose to build -YOUR- hunter to do... and that's fine for Solo play... but it's not how you should EVER approach a group. You'd be grumpy if your minstrel insisted on never running anything but War-traiting and play-style... you might, possibly expect them not to get picked up for many groups. It's not a problem with the Minstrel class, though; it's a choice of the player. The same is true of hunters. If you don't change your dynamic between Group and Solo... and play in groups as you would Solo, then you are being a poor and inconsiderate hunter, and you deserve to reap what you sow.

    If aggro management is not addressed then the creature the dev's have created is doomed to fail. By preforming the way it was made to function it only serves to destroy itself.
    Agro management is Everyone's job... yours included. Bursting in the opening 5 seconds shows poor agro management. Player fault, not class.

    Darwin would slate this animal for extinction without a second thought.
    The hunters that INSIST on running Solo-Burst while in a group situation, and disregarding their group to play to that solo-oriented strength? Yes. I agree.

    There are two choices to defeat this lemming response. The first is to create a way for hunters to shed aggro. That's it, just put in a way or two for a hunter to shift all, or some of the aggro created by those opening skills to a tank. Believe me, if we did get this the tank wouldn't ever have to worry about losing aggro on a mob.
    Are you aware, OP, that, while under the effects of Beneath Notice, even though it is only a simulated agro decrease, you nevertheless -generate- at that decreaed percentage? This is a bug with the skill, I beleive, and has been that way since its inception... I doubt it will ever be fixed, however, it remains true. If you absolutely cannot hold yourself back, and must burst wildly in the opening few seocnds (like I said... they have a spray for that...), try that; have it active while you're bursting. It honestly probably still won't save you, unless your tank is very, very on the ball, but that's actually the player's fault, not the calss'... you choose to use it that way, and that way is silly, in groups.

    The second is to shift the skills to ones that can be applied only after 30 seconds. Let the hunter warm up, the tank bite down on the bit while the hunter unleashes hell and see if the tank can do the full 8 second ride on aggro bull. If the hunter class is indeed the top single target dps machine then it needs the skills to be just that. Putting lipstick on a pig is still kissing a pig.. saying we are capable of doing top tier damage doesn't mean we can. Not our fault we were built this way, so fix it.
    Listen to this one carefully, dear hunter: there IS a way that you can prevent your burst skills from all going off for the first thirty seconds. It exists in the game already! Here's how you do it: The enocunter starts... now... don't click all your bursting skills... wait... wait... I know this is hard... wait... now, thirty seconds are up or so, and it's safe... Now hit all your bursting skills! There. Do you really need them to be mechanically debarred from you in order to prevent yourself from clicking them the moment combat starts?

    Hunters are dual wielding dice-o-matics.... we can melee better than most classes.... on paper. Our skills are not spamable, and agi is the antithesis of might (garlic to vampires) we hates it. Why build this into a class that was never meant to melee? Especially after the medium armour debacle of ROI, we lost a good chunk of survivability due to this change and the loss of our mits that were taken away when the devs replaced it with finesse pretty much caused this opportunity to be dead on arrival.
    Hunters are not, and were never meant to be a melee class. Our melee was never menat to be very strong at all, and it was never supposed to be a valuable damage contribution. We can dual wield to give us an extra stat equip in the slot. You may notice that EVERYONE who cannot use a shield, or is using two-handers, can dual-wield instead. Our melee acs, rather, as as election of ultility skills, which are particualarly useful to helpung us cut it while we are in melee. They would be JUST as useful, if they all did NO damage at all.

    Swift: parry buff, to help with survivability.
    Scourge: removes your bleeds, in prep for being able to possibly CC and get the hell out of Melee... also deals a dmage bonus if removing your doT, to bring it into line with the damage output of an equivalent bow-skill, roughly, but obviously with an induciton or focus cost.
    Blindside: Focus generator, to allow you to use your non-indctions skills, while you're stuck in melee.
    Dazing blow: short daze, to allow a longer induction skill, such as swift, or else to let you clear out a bit and get some range.
    Low cut: very potent Slow, to allow you to get enough range for a few shots.
    Agile: Ok, short ofthe trait, this one is pure damage, but supposedly damage roughly equatable to a bow-shot, wihtout the need for focus cost or induciton.

    Each skills that are NOT about their damage output, but about -What they Do-

    Another great thought by the way finesse (I want the names of these great thinkers who bring us this useless #### every other book), but instead of working with us they point to the paper tiger of our melee skills as a benefit for a ranged class. How about allowing agi to also influence our melee skills (not on the same level as our ranged skills, but a 2 for 1 exchange would be better than I have right now, and we wouldn't be stepping on any shing shing toes either.) Right now I am sporting 87 might, how much is that helping my awesome close combat skills? How can a class be marketed as a duel wielding class, yet have armour made to purposefully negate any melee damage by giving almost zero might on armour pieces? This duality thing is really starting to show.
    As others have noted... Might no longer affects our melee. We take our calculation off our Agi for that now. Even so, I stand by saying that I'd be just as happy with our melee selection if they did absolutely no damage at all. Damage isn't their purpose.


    This brings me to healing... what little there is for hunters is bound up and gagged by inductions or .... even better made for a reactionary melee skill that can heal just over 700 morale in 4 ticks, if you have the weapon LI fully tiered up. Remember that whole I am built to slag the target in less then 20 seconds build? Sure is nice to do to regular mobs. They never usually get within melee distance. Ohhhh but what about elite mobs? Different story, and a vastly different outcome. Hey you hear about this new area, its great filled with 70k mobs and super elite 140k mobs.
    Sorry, but hunters are perfectly capable of doing the things you claim we can't. My hunter soloed Cloben at 65, for example... Gratuious use of CC, great care, and using our limited selection of self-healing abilities in the CC breaks, of course, but entirely doable.

    Even without CC, there are plenty of hunters who regularly solo elite and elite-master rares on level.... if you can't think beyond exploding in the first five seconds with everything you've got, however, then you likely won't have any luck.

    LMs, Cappies, Burgs and Rks are having no problems with the 70k monsters, and Warden, Minnies (they are healers right?) along with Guards are able to take down the 140K mobs. How about those single target powerhouses the hunters... must be a cakewalk for you guys right? er.... right? Sorry no, we can burn 50k fast enough alright, but then we get hit for 3k, 2.5k, and 5k and we are sitting our medium armour rears in the rez circle of shame. Did you try your CC.... well yeah, but most times elites cannot be CCd. Well you just need to heal one or two times and dps them to oblivion. Sure we can heal 2k with a legendary slot taken up on a 4 second induction and ahh... well... we do have some nice morale pots available. What about your other healing skills... oh the 4 ticks of SOTE for 800 morale that helps when we are getting blasted for 2-5k a shot, and I discussed the whole small heal chance on a reactive melee skill for 700 morale, so no, we who should be able to do the best with a single target are shown to be the worst when it comes to the big mobs all other classes can take on without breaking too much of a sweat. How does that work into the equation of top dps class? How does this make sense?
    By the way, while we're going over this point. You don't seem to realise it, but hunters are, and have -always- been, the Weakest Solo class. We are, almost unarguably the Fastest solo calss, but also one of the very weakest in terms of baseline capability. Unless you trait as a survivable hunter, and that means yellow, in which case you surrender the title of fastest, in favour of also shrugging off the "least capable" mantle.

    Somebody mentioned CC... well don't its broken and causes the hunter to drop dps to be a third rate CC artist and a fourth rate dps machine. Why choose a hunter when a burg or lm will do the job better, faster, while hitting harder and providing buffs/debuffs for the group? The hunter brings nothing to the group unless all LMs, and Burgs are sleeping or have raid locks already.
    Incorrect. Again, played well, a CC hutner is every bit as capable as an LM or burg... you do have to think quickly and react well with what you're doing, however. They've also improved the line somewhat now so that our DPS falloff isn't quite as bad. We can still make a very useful DPS contibution, as a trapper. Also, a cyclic permanent CC lock on four targets? No, I wouldnt' call that broken or non functional either. You've just got to be a bit careul and a little clever.

    Nice bow.. what traits do you have on it? Well I need focus crit, induction crit, focus power return, induction power return, focus shot threat reduction and indution shot threat reduction (it comes in tiers by the way, except no one knows how much a tier reduces so its hard to say if it is working much at all). Well that is all six of your slots taken up by those, what about the other traits you have. Well we don't have any more space do we, don't all other classes have to split their main forms of damage into two sperate areas, along with power and possible threat mitagation? No, hmmm .. thats funny I wonder why only hunters have this to deal with?
    Acutally, YES. Most players who main a particular class DO have to have a variety of legacy items and weapons for different situations and setups... guard, for eample, will often carry both a Soloing belt and weapon, and a Gorup belt and weapon. Same for burgs.. same for minstrels, same for... well, same for everyone really. The same is less true for hunters than for anyone else, almost.

    We are blessed and cursed with not having much that's actually useful on our bows. hunter bows are easy to tailor. As you say, the crit augmenters, quickshot crit is nice for an extra ex-cap stacking 5%, since a crit on quick has other effects now... but there's really not much that would be counted as necessary. If you need the power or threat reducers, as in, really need them... you're doing it wrong. would it be nicer if they collapsed each of those into one thing? yes it would.. but doing so would make it too painfully clear how little of actual use or value exists for our bows.

    Now our hand weapon? THAT's where we have a santa-list that's more difficult to fill. But you know that, right?

    Oh well, I have a really cool skill to tell you about. I have been a tracker for 75 levels and cannot track invisible mobs yet, mom says I am slow learner, so this skill lets me do just that. It has only been usefull in ONE small section of a endgame raid so far and the devs attached a power return to it.... they are so smart what would we ever do without them? I also have a legendary skill that hasn't been improved since they put it in at level 50 and its been nerfed twice to lower the power return we get, but who needs power right? We dps machines don't need that at all. I can make a camp fire that returns less morale and power than some basic foods meant for lowbies though. It is pretty weak and you can't even feel the warmth of the fire if you are in combat. Funny how banners, rocks and some animals can give the groups some nice returns during combat, but my roaring campfire seems to fizzle out when we could use it most.
    Granted, some of our skills are outdated and haven't received any love. Tracker is not a raid skill, and it was only by chance that it was useful in one. Now for folk running trapper line, it has an added bonus, which, unfortunately is less useful since trapper line is the one line wher you won't run out of power ever anyway, even if you try.

    Yes, birght campfire is a bit silly, since you don't even recoup the net value of the power cost to palce it in its buff time... but onthe bright side, my hunter is also a cook. I dont' have campfire on my bars. I use if form the menu if I ever need it.

    Yes, they've continuiously decreased the power pip of Bard's arrow (three or four times in fact...), and that's VERY annoying. Other classes have their gripes as well though, we're not the only ones with lingering ire.

    I could go on but my head hurts just thinking about all the contradicitions this class is based on. Blow up the class I say... just do it. It was built to self destruct anyway. The devs who created this mess knew what they were doing all along. No tweaking, no adjusting, just roll up your sleeves and tear the whole thing down. Maybe then we can create a ranged class that makes sense. A class that doesn't get in its own way. One that can include some melee to supplement the times when the bad guys make it into spitting distance. One that doesn't have all the inductions, animations, and cute dances for every skill in its arsenal.
    A ranged class that makes sense, doens't get in its own way, and has some useful melee support skills for when thigns get too close. We have one of those. It's called the Hunter.

    If you find that you are tripping over yourself tyring to paly your hunter, and feel like it's in contradiciton all the time, then you'll probably find that the real origin of the problem exists not with the class, but somewhere between the computer chair and the keyboard.

    It sounds, actually, like what you really want is Orion's vision of a melee-ranged hybrid class, as he tried to convert the hunter into a couple of updates back... we unanimously cried no, so he revised his update changes, and came up with some really good things for us, that really has made hunters quite happy.

    I personally like the idea he had though; I think ti could work well if envisoned and created from scratch as a new class, to be itself in its own right. I WANT to see that even; it would be interesting and his ideas for this ranged/melee hybrid were exciting. I also think it's somthing that you might enjoy, given the way you've spoken about a few things here (Orion, if you're watching... I'd still love to see it... just not have hunters forced into it. Make it a new class).

    -Niara
    Last edited by Harla; Mar 11 2012 at 03:42 AM. Reason: Typos, formatting error
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  9. #59

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    When a group decides to take another Minstrel in dps-mode instead of a hunter, because they need the extra dps...
    then something is wrong.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    327

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I just wanted to comment on a few things from Harla's post. I want to make it clear I'm not trying to argue or anything, just sharing my opinion on the situation:

    We can regulate and control our agro while maintaining optimum output without pulling threat, at a stable rate, riding right along the threat-damage threshold of the tank without stepping over it.
    Yes we can...and we can also have champs/RKs/burgs outdps us because of it. Threat is the limiting factor for how much dps I can do in the vast majority of fights, but because hunters don't really have any effective threat management techniques, other dps classes are able to frequently dish out more damage without fear of pulling aggro. For example champs can ebbing ire, burgs can hips, RKs have innate -20% threat (though I'll admit that's changing for the worst with U6 so dps RKs may end up in a worse spot than us threatwise)...this ends up with them being able to dish out a certain level of damage without worrying about aggro, whereas if I put out the same damage I'll end up with a giant troll in my face. Yes, I do know aggro mechanics very well and I don't front-load all my heavy skills (heck, I frequently spend the first minute or so of many ToO fights doing nothing but QSing in endurance, and still manage to draw aggro once or twice towards the end). It is easy enough to simply blame it on "bad tanks" as many here seem to do, but it's been my experience that you basically need the top 1% of tanks (guards, wardens actually generate tons of threat currently with threat leeches) to hold aggro over the top 75% of hunters (and I don't see any other classes drawing this kind of aggro in boss fights).

    Incorrect. Again, played well, a CC hutner is every bit as capable as an LM or burg
    Yeah, this is true to a point. We can CC pretty much just as well, but we don't bring as much to the table. For example, if I trait full CC, I'm sacrificing a good 30-50% of my dps...essentially all I'm going to be good for is pure CC. I've parsed my dps yellow traited and it just doesn't even compare. Whereas with LM, you have buffs, debuffs, power restores, etc. and with a burg you've got a similar bag of tricks. So, I see the trapper line as decent if a burg/LM isn't available and CC is required, but otherwise why bother?
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  11. #61
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Given the length of your response I have to say that I find your post remarkably unhelpful, Harla. Your entire response is based on an extremely hostile reading of the OP's post, with you interpreting it as written by someone who "exemplifies everything that is bad about bad hunters". Yet this is a straw-man.
    Your post basically amounts to a blanket apology for the status quo, based on the fact that you feel it is doable to play a hunter. Yet that wasn't at issue. The point that frustrates so many on these forums is that unless you have a warden tanking, or two champs using ebbing/burgs using provoke on a guard, it is impossible for hunters to go all-out for most of the fight; whereas for burgs, rks, champs, this is a perfectly viable option. The only thing you seem to agree with, yet which you are still only willing to agree with implicitly (through noting that our LI legacies are a "blessing and a curse"), is the fact that our legacy pool basically sucks, whereas on nearly all other points you are basically arguing that hunters should "suck it up". Other than that all you do is suggest that the OP is wrong to even raise these issues.

    Anyway, it seems to me and a lot of others on this forum that the points made by the OP are entirely fair and legitimate, so I have no idea why you assume that the OP was not familiar with the points you raise.. My reading is that he knows perfectly well that it is possible to throttle oneself, but that he thinks this an unfair choice given that other DDs don't have to do so at all. Which seems to me quite accurate.

    As for your conclusion (that the OP is pushing for a melee/ranged hybrid), I am not sure what you are basing this on at all. It mostly reads as though you've read or understood none of the points about aggro management and sucky legendary skills that have been made over and over in other threads.
    Last edited by rannion; Mar 11 2012 at 12:28 PM.

  12. #62
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    All true. In PvP our main escape skill is not available in combat anymore WITHOUT a new and relatively adequate skill replacing it.

    The Hunter, apart from DPS management, has been made gimpier, etc, for PvP & more vulnerable even in PvE raids.
    [B]Hitchens[/B](r9 warg)[B], [/B][B]Glasgow[/B](R9 LM), [B]Lintalthir[/B] (R10 Hunter), [B]Rithun[/B] (R6 Captain) Brandywine server.
    [I]I fought alongside Silverest & Wuffles on Gladden when LOTRO began, nowadays on Brandwyne's PvP [/I]

  13. #63
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    As some one who raids with Harla on her hunter, I can attest that if any one knows about how to play a hunter, it's her. I raid with all the multiple elite alliance groups on my server and out of all the multitude of hunters I have grouped with, I can say beyond any doubt in my mind that Harla is the best. She knows the class inside and is the go to person if you have a question about pew pewing to the third pew.

    I am a 24/7 Blue Line traited hunter. On very very rare occasions I swap to yellow or red depending on the situation. I do what, I imagine hunters are meant to do. I stand at maximum range and unleash hell. Now at 75, any normal mob is either dead before they realize it, or dies a short distance from where he was standing. I rarely take any damage in the field because even ranged mobs have little time to get a shot off. I learned a lot of what I know from Harla, and I can say that, in my view, by and large, hunters are not broken. Frankly, I don't really want the devs poking around too much as they might screw something up.

    All I have really observed in this thread thus far is angst from die-hard redline hunters wanting redline to be zomg op again. MoM was like, three years ago. It's time you moved on.
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=Cyan]"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."[/COLOR]
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  14. #64
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Back in the day, we'd have to go into Endurance stance to keep threat down. Then they took away the +threat component to Strength stance, now nobody thinks they should drop out of it for group content. Or people who have built LIs for Precision don't want to waste time in Endurance. But really, as long as you have a Guardian of equal skill, threat shouldn't be an issue. Nothing in the development of the Hunter has necessitated that one use all their skills in the first 20 seconds of the fight, as the OP claims.

    As for CC, I've always viewed it as icing on the cake, and even with no yellow traits slotted, I like the slows, roots, and dazes.

    I do agree that legacies could be combined, but to do so to the crit multipliers, they'd have to take DPS away from somewhere else to make up for the increase. The -threat and -power cost ones might be easier, and I hope this is something they have in mind for the future.

    Same with a self-heal, even if it's a crit/defeat response or a morale leech from a new skill or BA.

    But the class is far from broken. We may be very vulnerable in PvP, but that's always been true. We're also very deadly when given protection, or when we get the jump on creeps from range. And again, that's always been the way. It's a trade-off.

    Nobody disagrees that minor upgrades would be useful, but the class is very playable as-is.
    [color=red]Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...[/color]

  15. #65

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Namesse View Post
    I'd like to see an aoe stun if a mob is in melee range. We're an induction class, if we have more than 2 mobs we have a tough time getting off any real skills. Stun would allow us to either whittle them down to a number we can handle or put some distance between them. RoT is supposed to provide this function, but it's a legendary, on a 5 minute CD and requires focus, so it isn't always available.
    aoe max legacy and lowcut.
    work in progress...

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  16. #66
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Incorrect. Hunters -can- build and set themsevles for burst damage, yes, but generally, that's our SOLO build. In Group work, hunter is all about very high stable and sustainable output... it rises and falls in waves, but they are and remain the top single-taget output class, at a stable level of output, if built for group work.
    And yet the most convenient tactic for majority of ToO trash and bosses is to kill them as quickly as possible. Burst damage comes pretty handy.


    We can regulate and control our agro while maintaining optimum output without pulling threat, at a stable rate, riding right along the threat-damage threshold of the tank without stepping over it. Sure, you could go into a group with a solo mindset, burst-blast yourself in the opening seconds, completely smash over the tank's damage-threat threshold and get yourself mauled... but that's not a fault of the class: it's the fault of the player.
    I think we join groups because we want to play in group, I don't know where are you getting this solo mindset in raids from, I guess that is your experience. Many pulls in ToO are like this -ok we CC this and this, and we nuke this and this-. If I was to wait 30s to start nuking as you advocate later on, there is no need for me to be in the raid at all.

    You, as a hunter, need the baseline of morale; you are in the group of people who take absolutely no damage except the necessary amounts, and thus you stand alongside the other back-liners needing the least morale buffer. Many hunters don't -like- this, and still want to cling to their 9k morale security blanket, but you don't need that. Honestly, if you are tapping 8K, under full raid buffs, then you're absolutely golden. My hunter, for example, runs Orthanc clear through each week, and are working on lighting T2, and Saruman T2 when we have a spare night... Day to day I run with less than 5K morale, and that's ample. In Raid, under full buffs, I'm at about 8K, with only a small sacrifice to my offence optimum... which is fine, since in most cases I can't actually run at complete stable optimum anyway, because it will pass the tank.
    Agree with that. But remember there are plenty of players who prefer solo or pvmp, and you can't say having better survavibility would be bad for them.



    And NONE of them are "designed" to let you frontload massive burst damage in the first ten seconds of a fight (except focus, which is not a group-focused skill). You CAN use them that way... that's silly, in a group. If you suffer from premature bursting in groups, to the embarrasment of everyone, then that's your problem, not the classes... and I have a friend who might inform you that that have a nasal spray for that now.
    I am sorry you have experience with such hunters.


    Yes. Yes it IS the hunter's fault. They were a stupid hunter, who doens't understand the subtle differences between being a hunter in a group, and being a hunter in Solo play. They behaved foolishly, disregarded group dynamic and paid for it, as expected... Yes: it's the hunter's fault.
    What about when the group dynamic requires top notch burst dps?

    If, for example, you insist on bursting at the start of a fight, in a group situation, ON the thing that the tank is supposed to tank... then you DESERVE to get eaten and die. You should also -learn- from that.
    Yup, we learned it is better to have burgs/champs replace hunter when 40m range is not needed.

    Here's something you might not be aware of, being a red-liner (I can tell from the way you describe your skills). Red line is not the optimal line for damage output. It's the optimal line for biggest individual numbers, yes, but not for overal damage output. Especially not if it leads you to burst and die in the opening moments. If you actually trait for conscientious group work, you can obtain a better overall damage output for any given fight in a group situation, and do so, without being dependant on bursting hard at the start of the encounter.
    Red line is absolutely viable dps line, be it for solo or for group play. If you think red line=burst at start of fight and die, then you clearly don't understand how to play it properly.

    Step two: Optimise intelligently. Be aware of your Tank's threat optimum as accutely as you are personally able to be, and push yourself to it without stepping over. Some people can gauge this line better than others, from experience of play and knowing the tank's class well, but either way, the Tank should be able to give you feedback about how well anchored they are. If you really want to be intelligent about it, you can modulate your damage based on what threat skills the tank has used, or had resisted: I keep all my party-member's fliers turned on, and I watch when the tnak uses keynote skills, to see if they stick or resist... if they resist, then their threat will be less seccure. It's easy enough; look that guard is using shield-taunt now... oh, there was no red squiggle over the boss... Shield Taunt was clearly resisted. DESPITE how easy it is to simply keep your eyes open to things like that, that's more effort than most put in, but even so, having a feel for the threat level is not difficult, and respecting it is important in groups.
    Here we are. At the core of the problem hunter have to face. It does not matter how good your dps is, you have to throttle it.

    So, premature bursting is not what WE were built to do... it's what you choose to build -YOUR- hunter to do... and that's fine for Solo play... but it's not how you should EVER approach a group. You'd be grumpy if your minstrel insisted on never running anything but War-traiting and play-style... you might, possibly expect them not to get picked up for many groups. It's not a problem with the Minstrel class, though; it's a choice of the player. The same is true of hunters. If you don't change your dynamic between Group and Solo... and play in groups as you would Solo, then you are being a poor and inconsiderate hunter, and you deserve to reap what you sow.
    Again you are talking about burst damage. What many people in this thread, as well as OP are saying is ineffectiveness of hunter threat management in general. Yet you just nit-picked one instance, burst dps at the start, and base every comment on that. What about the fact that hunter can pull aggro from tank when the boss is on 80% morale, 60% morale, etc.


    Are you aware, OP, that, while under the effects of Beneath Notice, even though it is only a simulated agro decrease, you nevertheless -generate- at that decreaed percentage? This is a bug with the skill, I beleive, and has been that way since its inception... I doubt it will ever be fixed, however, it remains true. If you absolutely cannot hold yourself back, and must burst wildly in the opening few seocnds (like I said... they have a spray for that...), try that; have it active while you're bursting. It honestly probably still won't save you, unless your tank is very, very on the ball, but that's actually the player's fault, not the calss'... you choose to use it that way, and that way is silly, in groups.
    I am sorry that in your opinion not exploiting bugged skill means player's fault.


    Listen to this one carefully, dear hunter: there IS a way that you can prevent your burst skills from all going off for the first thirty seconds. It exists in the game already! Here's how you d o it: The enocunter starts... now... don't click all your bursting skills... wait... wait... I know this is hard... wait... now, thirty seconds are up or so, and it's safe... Now hit all your bursting skills! There. Do you really need them to be mechanically debarred from you in order to prevent yourself from clicking them the moment combat starts?
    Wow, I bet no one ever thought about this before! Seems to me like you consider every hunter to be a #######.



    Hunters are not, and were never meant to be a melee class. Our melee was never menat to be very strong at all, and it was never supposed to be a valuable damage contribution...
    I am not going into this, but judging from our devs decisions there was clearly intent to make it valuable arsenal for hunter.

    Sorry, but hunters are perfectly capable of doing the things you claim we can't. My hunter soloed Cloben at 65, for example... Gratuious use of CC, great care, and using our limited selection of self-healing abilities in the CC breaks, of course, but entirely doable.

    Even without CC, there are plenty of hunters who regularly solo elite and elite-master rares on level.... if you can't think beyond exploding in the first five seconds with everything you've got, however, then you likely won't have any luck.
    We will see how great our solo is, when we will face the 140k mobs in new area.



    Incorrect. Again, played well, a CC hutner is every bit as capable as an LM or burg... you do have to think quickly and react well with what you're doing, however. They've also improved the line somewhat now so that our DPS falloff isn't quite as bad. We can still make a very useful DPS contibution, as a trapper. Also, a cyclic permanent CC lock on four targets? No, I wouldnt' call that broken or non functional either. You've just got to be a bit careul and a little clever.
    Does not answer the question, why bring CC hunter to the group? Burg/LM can do it, while offer stacking buffs/debuffs and similar dps.


    Acutally, YES. Most players who main a particular class DO have to have a variety of legacy items and weapons for different situations and setups... guard, for eample, will often carry both a Soloing belt and weapon, and a Gorup belt and weapon. Same for burgs.. same for minstrels, same for... well, same for everyone really. The same is less true for hunters than for anyone else, almost.

    We are blessed and cursed with not having much that's actually useful on our bows. hunter bows are easy to tailor. As you say, the crit augmenters, quickshot crit is nice for an extra ex-cap stacking 5%, since a crit on quick has other effects now... but there's really not much that would be counted as necessary. If you need the power or threat reducers, as in, really need them... you're doing it wrong. would it be nicer if they collapsed each of those into one thing? yes it would.. but doing so would make it too painfully clear how little of actual use or value exists for our bows.
    Yes we are aware that other classes use LIs for solo/group/etc. But when you want to build perfect group dps bow, you simply can't. 2x power cost, 2x threat down, 2x crit, 1x qs crit, 1x barbed bleed, 1x bh. That is 9 legacies that are very beneficial for pve group play. Now let's imagine HS and MS will one day be part of dps rotation, that will make 11 legacies you preferably want on your bow.

    And if you have not realized, none of LI legacies can be counted as necessary. Some are more valuable, some less, but any class can use crafted weapons and do huge majority of content.

    Again, you have to make clear distinction between different playstyles and scenarios. You can not solve the needs of pve raid hunter, solo pve hunter, pvmp solo hunter, pvmp group hunter with one change.

    And the attitude of attacking the OP based on some of your presumptions which are definitely not the case for many experienced hunters who contribute on these forums is a bit silly.

    The discussion is about hunters relative effectiveness in group mainly, and then also about some issues of solo survivability.
    Last edited by Fin.; Mar 11 2012 at 11:28 AM.
    Farewell.

  17. #67

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    To answer the Op... worth the ride? No, not particularly... other than to demonstrate by your dissetation here that the person who wrote it exemplifies everything that is bad about bad hunters. The problem is not the class, if these are your complaints: the problem is the player, and a lack of foresight or thinking.

    I will be honest and blunt, but I will try to be as constructive as possible as I answer you. Let's point-for-point it:



    Incorrect. Hunters -can- build and set themsevles for burst damage, yes, but generally, that's our SOLO build. In Group work, hunter is all about very high stable and sustainable output... it rises and falls in waves, but they are and remain the top single-taget output class, at a stable level of output, if built for group work.



    We can regulate and control our agro while maintaining optimum output without pulling threat, at a stable rate, riding right along the threat-damage threshold of the tank without stepping over it. Sure, you could go into a group with a solo mindset, burst-blast yourself in the opening seconds, completely smash over the tank's damage-threat threshold and get yourself mauled... but that's not a fault of the class: it's the fault of the player.

    You, as a hunter, need the baseline of morale; you are in the group of people who take absolutely no damage except the necessary amounts, and thus you stand alongside the other back-liners needing the least morale buffer. Many hunters don't -like- this, and still want to cling to their 9k morale security blanket, but you don't need that. Honestly, if you are tapping 8K, under full raid buffs, then you're absolutely golden. My hunter, for example, runs Orthanc clear through each week, and are working on lighting T2, and Saruman T2 when we have a spare night... Day to day I run with less than 5K morale, and that's ample. In Raid, under full buffs, I'm at about 8K, with only a small sacrifice to my offence optimum... which is fine, since in most cases I can't actually run at complete stable optimum anyway, because it will pass the tank.



    Incorrect. In SOLO, perhpas you want to maximise your burst, sure, and maybe you might like to tait in a way that doesn't let you have full-time access to your stable increasers... But Fleetness? That's a permanent up, not a burst. NH, that's a half-on, half-off, not a burst. Improved focus? Unless you're nuking an add, then you shouldn't be worrying about that in groups. Arts, also a permanent up, not a burst.

    And NONE of them are "designed" to let you frontload massive burst damage in the first ten seconds of a fight (except focus, which is not a group-focused skill). You CAN use them that way... that's silly, in a group. If you suffer from premature bursting in groups, to the embarrasment of everyone, then that's your problem, not the classes... and I have a friend who might inform you that that have a nasal spray for that now.



    Yes. Yes it IS the hunter's fault. They were a stupid hunter, who doens't understand the subtle differences between being a hunter in a group, and being a hunter in Solo play. They behaved foolishly, disregarded group dynamic and paid for it, as expected... Yes: it's the hunter's fault.

    If, for example, you insist on bursting at the start of a fight, in a group situation, ON the thing that the tank is supposed to tank... then you DESERVE to get eaten and die. You should also -learn- from that.

    Here's something you might not be aware of, being a red-liner (I can tell from the way you describe your skills). Red line is not the optimal line for damage output. It's the optimal line for biggest individual numbers, yes, but not for overal damage output. Especially not if it leads you to burst and die in the opening moments. If you actually trait for conscientious group work, you can obtain a better overall damage output for any given fight in a group situation, and do so, without being dependant on bursting hard at the start of the encounter.

    Step one, forget about taking advantage of improved focus in group work, unless your inital target in a pull is getting nuked and not tanked. There, now you're no longer nailed in to bursting in the opening 5 seconds.

    Step two: Optimise intelligently. Be aware of your Tank's threat optimum as accutely as you are personally able to be, and push yourself to it without stepping over. Some people can gauge this line better than others, from experience of play and knowing the tank's class well, but either way, the Tank should be able to give you feedback about how well anchored they are. If you really want to be intelligent about it, you can modulate your damage based on what threat skills the tank has used, or had resisted: I keep all my party-member's fliers turned on, and I watch when the tnak uses keynote skills, to see if they stick or resist... if they resist, then their threat will be less seccure. It's easy enough; look that guard is using shield-taunt now... oh, there was no red squiggle over the boss... Shield Taunt was clearly resisted. DESPITE how easy it is to simply keep your eyes open to things like that, that's more effort than most put in, but even so, having a feel for the threat level is not difficult, and respecting it is important in groups.

    So, premature bursting is not what WE were built to do... it's what you choose to build -YOUR- hunter to do... and that's fine for Solo play... but it's not how you should EVER approach a group. You'd be grumpy if your minstrel insisted on never running anything but War-traiting and play-style... you might, possibly expect them not to get picked up for many groups. It's not a problem with the Minstrel class, though; it's a choice of the player. The same is true of hunters. If you don't change your dynamic between Group and Solo... and play in groups as you would Solo, then you are being a poor and inconsiderate hunter, and you deserve to reap what you sow.



    Agro management is Everyone's job... yours included. Bursting in the opening 5 seconds shows poor agro management. Player fault, not class.



    The hunters that INSIST on running Solo-Burst while in a group situation, and disregarding their group to play to that solo-oriented strength? Yes. I agree.



    Are you aware, OP, that, while under the effects of Beneath Notice, even though it is only a simulated agro decrease, you nevertheless -generate- at that decreaed percentage? This is a bug with the skill, I beleive, and has been that way since its inception... I doubt it will ever be fixed, however, it remains true. If you absolutely cannot hold yourself back, and must burst wildly in the opening few seocnds (like I said... they have a spray for that...), try that; have it active while you're bursting. It honestly probably still won't save you, unless your tank is very, very on the ball, but that's actually the player's fault, not the calss'... you choose to use it that way, and that way is silly, in groups.



    Listen to this one carefully, dear hunter: there IS a way that you can prevent your burst skills from all going off for the first thirty seconds. It exists in the game already! Here's how you do it: The enocunter starts... now... don't click all your bursting skills... wait... wait... I know this is hard... wait... now, thirty seconds are up or so, and it's safe... Now hit all your bursting skills! There. Do you really need them to be mechanically debarred from you in order to prevent yourself from clicking them the moment combat starts?



    Hunters are not, and were never meant to be a melee class. Our melee was never menat to be very strong at all, and it was never supposed to be a valuable damage contribution. We can dual wield to give us an extra stat equip in the slot. You may notice that EVERYONE who cannot use a shield, or is using two-handers, can dual-wield instead. Our melee acs, rather, as as election of ultility skills, which are particualarly useful to helpung us cut it while we are in melee. They would be JUST as useful, if they all did NO damage at all.

    Swift: parry buff, to help with survivability.
    Scourge: removes your bleeds, in prep for being able to possibly CC and get the hell out of Melee... also deals a dmage bonus if removing your doT, to bring it into line with the damage output of an equivalent bow-skill, roughly, but obviously with an induciton or focus cost.
    Blindside: Focus generator, to allow you to use your non-indctions skills, while you're stuck in melee.
    Dazing blow: short daze, to allow a longer induction skill, such as swift, or else to let you clear out a bit and get some range.
    Low cut: very potent Slow, to allow you to get enough range for a few shots.
    Agile: Ok, short ofthe trait, this one is pure damage, but supposedly damage roughly equatable to a bow-shot, wihtout the need for focus cost or induciton.

    Each skills that are NOT about their damage output, but about -What they Do-



    As others have noted... Might no longer affects our melee. We take our calculation off our Agi for that now. Even so, I stand by saying that I'd be just as happy with our melee selection if they did absolutely no damage at all. Damage isn't their purpose.




    Sorry, but hunters are perfectly capable of doing the things you claim we can't. My hunter soloed Cloben at 65, for example... Gratuious use of CC, great care, and using our limited selection of self-healing abilities in the CC breaks, of course, but entirely doable.

    Even without CC, there are plenty of hunters who regularly solo elite and elite-master rares on level.... if you can't think beyond exploding in the first five seconds with everything you've got, however, then you likely won't have any luck.



    By the way, while we're going over this point. You don't seem to realise it, but hunters are, and have -always- been, the Weakest Solo class. We are, almost unarguably the Fastest solo calss, but also one of the very weakest in terms of baseline capability. Unless you trait as a survivable hunter, and that means yellow, in which case you surrender the title of fastest, in favour of also shrugging off the "least capable" mantle.



    Incorrect. Again, played well, a CC hutner is every bit as capable as an LM or burg... you do have to think quickly and react well with what you're doing, however. They've also improved the line somewhat now so that our DPS falloff isn't quite as bad. We can still make a very useful DPS contibution, as a trapper. Also, a cyclic permanent CC lock on four targets? No, I wouldnt' call that broken or non functional either. You've just got to be a bit careul and a little clever.



    Acutally, YES. Most players who main a particular class DO have to have a variety of legacy items and weapons for different situations and setups... guard, for eample, will often carry both a Soloing belt and weapon, and a Gorup belt and weapon. Same for burgs.. same for minstrels, same for... well, same for everyone really. The same is less true for hunters than for anyone else, almost.

    We are blessed and cursed with not having much that's actually useful on our bows. hunter bows are easy to tailor. As you say, the crit augmenters, quickshot crit is nice for an extra ex-cap stacking 5%, since a crit on quick has other effects now... but there's really not much that would be counted as necessary. If you need the power or threat reducers, as in, really need them... you're doing it wrong. would it be nicer if they collapsed each of those into one thing? yes it would.. but doing so would make it too painfully clear how little of actual use or value exists for our bows.

    Now our hand weapon? THAT's where we have a santa-list that's more difficult to fill. But you know that, right?



    Granted, some of our skills are outdated and haven't received any love. Tracker is not a raid skill, and it was only by chance that it was useful in one. Now for folk running trapper line, it has an added bonus, which, unfortunately is less useful since trapper line is the one line wher you won't run out of power ever anyway, even if you try.

    Yes, birght campfire is a bit silly, since you don't even recoup the net value of the power cost to palce it in its buff time... but onthe bright side, my hunter is also a cook. I dont' have campfire on my bars. I use if form the menu if I ever need it.

    Yes, they've continuiously decreased the power pip of Bard's arrow (three or four times in fact...), and that's VERY annoying. Other classes have their gripes as well though, we're not the only ones with lingering ire.



    A ranged class that makes sense, doens't get in its own way, and has some useful melee support skills for when thigns get too close. We have one of those. It's called the Hunter.

    If you find that you are tripping over yourself tyring to paly your hunter, and feel like it's in contradiciton all the time, then you'll probably find that the real origin of the problem exists not with the class, but somewhere between the computer chair and the keyboard.

    It sounds, actually, like what you really want is Orion's vision of a melee-ranged hybrid class, as he tried to convert the hunter into a couple of updates back... we unanimously cried no, so he revised his update changes, and came up with some really good things for us, that really has made hunters quite happy.

    I personally like the idea he had though; I think ti could work well if envisoned and created from scratch as a new class, to be itself in its own right. I WANT to see that even; it would be interesting and his ideas for this ranged/melee hybrid were exciting. I also think it's somthing that you might enjoy, given the way you've spoken about a few things here (Orion, if you're watching... I'd still love to see it... just not have hunters forced into it. Make it a new class).

    -Niara
    I made a reply to a post in a dif thread about the aggro management and agree about feel for pulling aggro etc and again in Acid t2 Boss a situation came to mind... The Boss was debuffed by the burgs Improve trick I believe? I built for crits and blue line and with that debuff everything i was dishing out was a crit or dev... I had to watch the size of the crits and guage my dps because if I went full out i would have cretainly pulled aggro... my dps didnt drop but the speed and choice of my rotation did..

    If your going into pugs etc i think you have to assume the tank is not good and build up yur dps and see what he can handle instead of coming out guns blazing... feel every situation 1st then proceed...

    There was also a time i recall we had a new tank vs our regular tank in a raid and he came out trying build aggro slow with bow? ( pardon me tanks i only play 1 class hah ) vs a taunt... we didnt know and even with a pause it was easy to grab aggro because we were coming out blazing intentionally to take out trash... the regular tank said he never does it that way and when the new tank switched his playstyle all was good...

    Guess all im saying is every situation is dif and I think you need to address that before thinking you can go all out dps whenever you want as tempting as it is.
    work in progress...

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c21400000004848d/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  18. #68

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I enjoyed your post Harla, you brought up great points in quite a few ways but I did want to address a few things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Incorrect. Hunters -can- build and set themsevles for burst damage, yes, but generally, that's our SOLO build. In Group work, hunter is all about very high stable and sustainable output... it rises and falls in waves, but they are and remain the top single-taget output class, at a stable level of output, if built for group work.
    The problem is: the rises and falls in the waves are too big as of now. As I've said before, the spike is too large for the tank to handle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    We can regulate and control our agro while maintaining optimum output without pulling threat, at a stable rate, riding right along the threat-damage threshold of the tank without stepping over it.
    Yes, you can. Quite well actually. But that does not remove the fact that if you are doing less damage because you are watching your threat like a good hunter, you are contributing less to the group than an lm/burg/champ who brings more to the table. Debuffs, limited CC, off-tanking. If we control our aggro, we gimp our role substantially. Why? The only other class that comes close to this is the LM red-line. But red line for them is not a group trait set, it is for dps. LMs come to CC for a group, not damage, unless they're absolutely needed.... Oh! But I forgot something. LMs have debuffs. We have.... light oil?


    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Incorrect. In SOLO, perhpas you want to maximise your burst, sure, and maybe you might like to tait in a way that doesn't let you have full-time access to your stable increasers... But Fleetness? That's a permanent up, not a burst. NH, that's a half-on, half-off, not a burst. Improved focus? Unless you're nuking an add, then you shouldn't be worrying about that in groups. Arts, also a permanent up, not a burst.
    And NONE of them are "designed" to let you frontload massive burst damage in the first ten seconds of a fight (except focus, which is not a group-focused skill). You CAN use them that way... that's silly, in a group. If you suffer from premature bursting in groups, to the embarrasment of everyone, then that's your problem, not the classes... and I have a friend who might inform you that that have a nasal spray for that now.
    Yes, fleetness is not a burst. NH is not a burst. But I don't think those skills even made sense in the original context. A hunter's primary stat, agil, naturally boosts critical rating along with our physical mastery. Thus, naturally, if we but only use our primary stat, we become a burst damage class. Not to mention some of our major skills are burst: IPS, BlA, ISB, HA (<---hehe.) Other classes depend heavily on bleeds. The ones that come most easily to the forefront are the burg and rk (dps classes not meant to pull aggro, I cannot include the champ because its role is an off-tank, and burst damage will not negatively affect it, because it has an aggro transfer and high survivability if that does not work.) Burgs and rks main dps skills both heavily use bleeds. Fire for rk, actual "bleeds" for the burg. As much as we hate it, the hunter IS a burst class, not only in solo, but also in group. It comes along with our main stat and skills, we cannot avoid it.
    Oh hey! Did I mention one of our best LI legacies increases CRITICAL MULTIPLIER? Ah, sorry. I'll keep mum about that one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Yes. Yes it IS the hunter's fault. They were a stupid hunter, who doens't understand the subtle differences between being a hunter in a group, and being a hunter in Solo play. They behaved foolishly, disregarded group dynamic and paid for it, as expected... Yes: it's the hunter's fault.
    If, for example, you insist on bursting at the start of a fight, in a group situation, ON the thing that the tank is supposed to tank... then you DESERVE to get eaten and die. You should also -learn- from that.
    *tears*

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    You, as a hunter, need the baseline of morale; you are in the group of people who take absolutely no damage except the necessary amounts, and thus you stand alongside the other back-liners needing the least morale buffer. Many hunters don't -like- this, and still want to cling to their 9k morale security blanket, but you don't need that. Honestly, if you are tapping 8K, under full raid buffs, then you're absolutely golden. My hunter, for example, runs Orthanc clear through each week, and are working on lighting T2, and Saruman T2 when we have a spare night... Day to day I run with less than 5K morale, and that's ample. In Raid, under full buffs, I'm at about 8K, with only a small sacrifice to my offence optimum... which is fine, since in most cases I can't actually run at complete stable optimum anyway, because it will pass the tank.
    But.... PvP? Uhh... um... er....

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Here's something you might not be aware of, being a red-liner (I can tell from the way you describe your skills). Red line is not the optimal line for damage output. It's the optimal line for biggest individual numbers, yes, but not for overal damage output. Especially not if it leads you to burst and die in the opening moments. If you actually trait for conscientious group work, you can obtain a better overall damage output for any given fight in a group situation, and do so, without being dependant on bursting hard at the start of the encounter.
    I am a blue liner, and have noticed what I stated above anyways. Like I said before, then hunter is a burst damage class. Blue line distributes it into lots of smaller spikes, red line peaks it at one point (unleash that HS for 10k!! mwahahaha). The problem remains, whichever way you cut it. Blue line's spikes are still too high for the tank to react to fast enough without wiping the squishies near the hunter. Like a tank said earlier in another thread, tank's gain more threat by block responses (guardian) or leeching threat (warden). If there's no threat to leech before the spike comes, there will be fumbling. If there's no block response within the force taunt time (because your guardian was a good boy and had Challenge up!) that temporarily saved your group from wiping, you will wipe anyways because not enough threat was generated, and the hunter cannot lose threat. We have no such skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Step one, forget about taking advantage of improved focus in group work, unless your inital target in a pull is getting nuked and not tanked. There, now you're no longer nailed in to bursting in the opening 5 seconds.
    Agreed. This makes perfect logical sense. Imp focus is not for group settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Step two: Optimise intelligently. Be aware of your Tank's threat optimum as accutely as you are personally able to be, and push yourself to it without stepping over. Some people can gauge this line better than others, from experience of play and knowing the tank's class well, but either way, the Tank should be able to give you feedback about how well anchored they are. If you really want to be intelligent about it, you can modulate your damage based on what threat skills the tank has used, or had resisted: I keep all my party-member's fliers turned on, and I watch when the tnak uses keynote skills, to see if they stick or resist... if they resist, then their threat will be less seccure. It's easy enough; look that guard is using shield-taunt now... oh, there was no red squiggle over the boss... Shield Taunt was clearly resisted. DESPITE how easy it is to simply keep your eyes open to things like that, that's more effort than most put in, but even so, having a feel for the threat level is not difficult, and respecting it is important in groups.
    The red squiggly can vary... i.e. for the warden there are some skills that "moderately increase threat" as opposed to "slightly increase threat over time" or "greatly increase threat." That's where it becomes extremely tricky. With proper communication, should be okay though. My block response/threat leech point above was still not addressed though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Are you aware, OP, that, while under the effects of Beneath Notice, even though it is only a simulated agro decrease, you nevertheless -generate- at that decreaed percentage? This is a bug with the skill, I beleive, and has been that way since its inception... I doubt it will ever be fixed, however, it remains true. If you absolutely cannot hold yourself back, and must burst wildly in the opening few seocnds (like I said... they have a spray for that...), try that; have it active while you're bursting. It honestly probably still won't save you, unless your tank is very, very on the ball, but that's actually the player's fault, not the calss'... you choose to use it that way, and that way is silly, in groups.
    Cool. How does this help me again? Every other class has a way to decrease threat. We mask it. And please, before you say IQS in endurance, realize this: E:IQS is a skill that is neutral to threat. That's right. Another cool fact of the day for this thread. And guess what? E:IQS raises your threat (a wee bit) on a crit, despite that deceiving blue squiggly! So, ultimately, we really do not have any way to actually lower our threat. Just throw a blanket on it and hope the tank gets a block response in that time or leeches from our amazingly low threat level now that -60% of it has been masked.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Listen to this one carefully, dear hunter: there IS a way that you can prevent your burst skills from all going off for the first thirty seconds. It exists in the game already! Here's how you do it: The enocunter starts... now... don't click all your bursting skills... wait... wait... I know this is hard... wait... now, thirty seconds are up or so, and it's safe... Now hit all your bursting skills! There. Do you really need them to be mechanically debarred from you in order to prevent yourself from clicking them the moment combat starts?
    Once again, this won't save you from the bursts. It'll happen later.



    Now I will answer your melee skills with one or two word answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Swift: parry buff, to help with survivability.
    Finesse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Scourge: removes your bleeds, in prep for being able to possibly CC and get the hell out of Melee... also deals a dmage bonus if removing your doT, to bring it into line with the damage output of an equivalent bow-skill, roughly, but obviously with an induciton or focus cost.
    Good skill

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Blindside: Focus generator, to allow you to use your non-indctions skills, while you're stuck in melee.
    Good skill

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Dazing blow: short daze, to allow a longer induction skill, such as swift, or else to let you clear out a bit and get some range.
    Good skill

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Low cut: very potent Slow, to allow you to get enough range for a few shots.
    Melee, short

    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Agile: Ok, short ofthe trait, this one is pure damage, but supposedly damage roughly equatable to a bow-shot, wihtout the need for focus cost or induction.
    Parry response (needed)

    For the rest of your post, I'll be frank. Melee is not what concerns us. It's our drastically broken skills that have gotten no attention for 3 updates now. I can list them if you'd like, but not gonna take the time to do so right now, as I've already typed plenty and you're probably gonna fall asleep unless I can manage to type them all in less than 40 rows of lines.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Incorrect. Again, played well, a CC hutner is every bit as capable as an LM or burg... you do have to think quickly and react well with what you're doing, however. They've also improved the line somewhat now so that our DPS falloff isn't quite as bad. We can still make a very useful DPS contibution, as a trapper. Also, a cyclic permanent CC lock on four targets? No, I wouldnt' call that broken or non functional either. You've just got to be a bit careul and a little clever.
    Most definitely not as capable, they have debuffs. Most definitely not permanent CC, we have inductions. And the CC given to us consists of borked skills. An AOE root? Come on, I'd rather have single target, not pull the entire group of mobs. A fear? Lovely, pull other mobs or run into the champs while you're at it. We have ONE viable CC skill that requires traiting down a list of useless trapping skills to obtain it. And even then, it's not a permanent skill unless you go through another LI for the -CD trait.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    Acutally, YES. Most players who main a particular class DO have to have a variety of legacy items and weapons for different situations and setups... guard, for eample, will often carry both a Soloing belt and weapon, and a Gorup belt and weapon. Same for burgs.. same for minstrels, same for... well, same for everyone really. The same is less true for hunters than for anyone else, almost.
    Almost, but not quite. For example, the guard's role is dps/tanking. So he has a dps LI set and a tanking LI set (not solo, group, but it comes close to meaning about the same thing simply because of the roles we're talking about). Our roles? Dps, CC. Not solo dps, group dps, and CC. We are required to have 3 LIs instead of other classes' 2. That's where it comes to be annoying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    We are blessed and cursed with not having much that's actually useful on our bows. hunter bows are easy to tailor. As you say, the crit augmenters, quickshot crit is nice for an extra ex-cap stacking 5%, since a crit on quick has other effects now... but there's really not much that would be counted as necessary. If you need the power or threat reducers, as in, really need them... you're doing it wrong. would it be nicer if they collapsed each of those into one thing? yes it would.. but doing so would make it too painfully clear how little of actual use or value exists for our bows.
    Hehe... crits... I remember something about that...


    Okay, I'm done with this wall of text. Hopefully somebody learns a little something from this. Just wanted to make sure to point out a few flaws with some of your reasoning, and side with you on a few others. There's plenty of good stuff in a hunter for sure (personally, I think we'll be able to solo those 70k mobs... not the 140k, but that's cause we're not OP, and never will be) but more bad stuff. I want to be sure to root that bad stuff out now. Before update 672. B/c right now that's what it looks like is gonna happen... hunter needs to be addressed asap.

    ~Swift
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  19. #69
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    For the TLDR people:

    Are hunters broken beyond repair? No
    Are there some horrible design problems? Yes
    Can those be 'worked around'? Mostly
    Would I like them to be fixed? Yes

    So, why? Well, first of all Hunters are doing pretty fine, we got a bit of survivability trouble since ROI, like all medium armour classes and it hurts us because we've always lacked good self-heals by design. But this is a small, fixable problem. DPS-wise things are great as ever (the uncapped stats are a benefit compared to some other classes, they just accentuate the power and threat issues we've always had) and our 'raid utility' hasn't become worse, in fact due to Adaptation we're now actually requiring Hunters for at least 1 DPS slot.

    So what's the trouble? Well, there's basically two playstyles integrated in the Hunter class: the 'Archer', the ranged nuker who dishes out large damage as long as the enemy stays at range, and gets in trouble in melee. And the 'Ranger', a flexible melee/ranged character who relies on bursts of high ranged damage, but is able to finish stuff off in melee when required. Based on this the 'Archer' would be a perfect group role (high, steady damage requiring protection), while the 'Ranger' is more solo/fellowship oriented (versatile, less dependent on support, shorter fights).
    What went wrong? Turbine mixed these two up: We got 2 DPS traitlines, one could be characterized as high 'bursty' damage, with little staying power with long inductions and little melee options (and used to have obvious 'don't use in groups' debuffs). The other is a more melee/ranged hybrid, has short inductions for mobility and produces more 'steady' damage.
    Now, line 1 (the red line), screams 'Archer' playstyle, except it's built for burst damage, producing less DPS over a long fight and messing up group mechanics with threat spikes.
    Line 2 (the blue line), screams 'Ranger', but comes with the mobility required by modern raids and has a more steady DPS overall.

    As for our Trapper line, it's got its own issues, the main ones being:
    - our prime CC, best known CC skills are Bard's and RoT and just about every Hunter runs around with these because even in DPS mode they're still among our best Legendary traits.
    - Our traps are very potent in theory, but 99.9% of the time not practical, making our potential CC much, much higher than what all but the very top of ToF-specialists can achieve.
    - Even when going all CC traited, with legendary capstone and bow legacies, our CC remains more 'iffy' than what the prime CC classes produce. Induction time of Distracting Shot, high BPE/Resist chance, no 'reset button' like CtV for when it does resist means the very best we can do is take a mob out of the fight 'as long as we're lucky'. Roots are AoE+damage (breaking previous CC) or difficult to target (traps) and typically useless because of tactical attacks. And Fear is 'iffy' by nature (the whole running into a champion possibility...).
    Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others...
    [URL="http://thewesternalliance.org"]The Western Alliance[/URL], Laurelin
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  20. #70
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I wish to once again acknowledge the really excellent contributions to this thread. It is obvious that we all have a passion for our class, and have put a great deal of thought into our strengths and weaknesses.

    I especially thank Harla for jumping in with a rousing and well-stated defense of the class! I agree with much of what she typed in regards to controlling our threat generation, although I still feel that as far as group content goes, the hunter remains a "one-trick pony". We are expected to shoot things but not too hard, and we have no tools to judge how hard that is other than trial and error. The class just doesn't bring anything else to most group content other than arrows.

    Swift's responses to Harla's observations are well-reasoned and nicely presented as well. I applaud you both for adding so much to a lively discussion.

    I suspect that this sort of thread - in which ideas and arguments are calmly exchanged between rational, thoughtful posters - will catch the eye of the development team. I look forward to more posts of the same quality!
    Last edited by Dark_Toad; Mar 11 2012 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Grammar
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  21. #71

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Coming back and reading though this thread has been a bit shocking. Do you guys actually enjoy throttling back your DPS throughout a fight because have to manage your threat? That isn't a fun playstyle IMO, and it certainly isn't managing your threat ... its gimping your DPS. I realize you must start slow and give the tank time etc, but currently that just simply isn't enough for the vast majority of tanks. Other DPS classes have tools that they can use to help manage their threat, not watch their CA and make sure they aren't doing too much. What is the point in being able to do more damage if you can't output it without pulling aggro halfway through a fight? At that point in time what is the point in getting better gear for your hunter if the only place you can actually make the most out of it is on a training dummy or Draigoch.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000003b5d1/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    Dallimer (Warden) Tarliwyn (LM) Krakkle (Champ) Phlili (RK)

  22. #72
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    Almost, but not quite. For example, the guard's role is dps/tanking. So he has a dps LI set and a tanking LI set (not solo, group, but it comes close to meaning about the same thing simply because of the roles we're talking about). Our roles? Dps, CC. Not solo dps, group dps, and CC. We are required to have 3 LIs instead of other classes' 2. That's where it comes to be annoying.
    Oh, that's rich. Do you have any idea how many LI slots are filled on my RK if I want to be optimal? 6. I had to spend turbine points on more slots just to be able to level trash weapons. Don't even ask about the relic grind. You may have it worse than certain other classes, but you are far from the worst off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balagast View Post
    Coming back and reading though this thread has been a bit shocking. Do you guys actually enjoy throttling back your DPS throughout a fight because have to manage your threat? That isn't a fun playstyle IMO, and it certainly isn't managing your threat ... its gimping your DPS. I realize you must start slow and give the tank time etc, but currently that just simply isn't enough for the vast majority of tanks. Other DPS classes have tools that they can use to help manage their threat, not watch their CA and make sure they aren't doing too much. What is the point in being able to do more damage if you can't output it without pulling aggro halfway through a fight? At that point in time what is the point in getting better gear for your hunter if the only place you can actually make the most out of it is on a training dummy or Draigoch.
    You aren't the only class to has to deal with this either, by the way. I can already pull aggro off of competent tanks if I want to on my RK with the right rotation even while using all my threat tools, and ZC has just seen fit to bless my class with a 20% increase in generated threat. While we may have aggro problems that are less pronounced than yours, they still exist.

    Honestly, yes hunters have problems, but some of you seem intent on drawing them out of proportion. You will never be able to go crazy all-out burst DPS with no chance of pulling aggro. It's just the way it's always been, and if anything it's not as bad now as it used to be when SS had the +aggro component.
    Last edited by Telcharan; Mar 11 2012 at 01:55 PM.
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    [center]Toltrandor - Rune-keeper | Telcharan - Lore-master | Vorhedar - Warden | Halthinian - Hunter (mostly retired)[/center]

  23. #73

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Telcharan View Post
    Oh, that's rich. Do you have any idea how many LI slots are filled on my RK if I want to be optimal? 6. I had to spend turbine points on more slots just to be able to level trash weapons. Don't even ask about the relic grind. You may have it worse than certain other classes, but you are far from the worst off.



    You aren't the only class to has to deal with this either, by the way. I can already pull aggro off of competent tanks if I want to on my RK with the right rotation even while using all my threat tools, and ZC has just seen fit to bless my class with a 20% increase in generated threat. While we may have aggro problems that are less pronounced than yours, they still exist.

    Honestly, yes hunters have problems, but some of you seem intent on drawing them out of proportion. You will never be able to go crazy all-out burst DPS with no chance of pulling aggro. It's just the way it's always been, and if anything it's not as bad now as it used to be when SS had the +aggro component.
    Personally I think the aggro nerf to RK's was uncalled for as well, I play one as well. Making it so DPS classes can't fully DPS without a solid warden tanking is totally ridiculous IMO. It also makes it incredibly unfun to play a tank when you have to be frantically building threat all the time just to not lose it to one of the DPS. All the DPS classes should have skills that allow them to drop threat and have to make a conscience effort to do so. The only real skill like this is ebbing ire, being as it costs pips so using it you do have to sacrifice a little damage in the process.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000003b5d1/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    Dallimer (Warden) Tarliwyn (LM) Krakkle (Champ) Phlili (RK)

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    439

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Balagast View Post
    Personally I think the aggro nerf to RK's was uncalled for as well, I play one as well. Making it so DPS classes can't fully DPS without a solid warden tanking is totally ridiculous IMO. It also makes it incredibly unfun to play a tank when you have to be frantically building threat all the time just to not lose it to one of the DPS. All the DPS classes should have skills that allow them to drop threat and have to make a conscience effort to do so. The only real skill like this is ebbing ire, being as it costs pips so using it you do have to sacrifice a little damage in the process.
    Doesn't this just SCREAM for hunter's art to drop aggro 10% with a (further) damage nerf?

  25. #75

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Telcharan View Post
    Oh, that's rich. Do you have any idea how many LI slots are filled on my RK if I want to be optimal? 6. I had to spend turbine points on more slots just to be able to level trash weapons. Don't even ask about the relic grind. You may have it worse than certain other classes, but you are far from the worst off.
    Most rune-keepers I know have 3 LIs. Not LI sets. LIs. As in healing stone, dps stone, bag. If you want to be super effective, you can make a healing and dps bag, and really blow the crowd away. You do not need to use 6 LI slots to be optimal. There is no "solo" or "group" dps LIs for an RK. Yes, I do know the legacies. I also happen to know one of the best RKs on my server, Anathoth. He is by no means anything less than optimal in both healing and dps, and he only uses 3 non-trash LIs. You do not have it as bad as you make it to be

    Edited to add in:
    Quote Originally Posted by Telcharan View Post
    You aren't the only class to has to deal with this either, by the way. I can already pull aggro off of competent tanks if I want to on my RK with the right rotation even while using all my threat tools, and ZC has just seen fit to bless my class with a 20% increase in generated threat. While we may have aggro problems that are less pronounced than yours, they still exist.

    Honestly, yes hunters have problems, but some of you seem intent on drawing them out of proportion. You will never be able to go crazy all-out burst DPS with no chance of pulling aggro. It's just the way it's always been, and if anything it's not as bad now as it used to be when SS had the +aggro component.
    "With the right rotation" you pull threat off tanks? That seems counterproductive to me. Your skills innately drop threat (don't go for the "but when I use lightning... argument because it's not valid. Lightning is not a group trait line. Fire is. Fire drops your threat.) whereas most of our skills somehow always seemed geared to pull aggro (see my burst damage argument in the amazingly long post above ). Yes, you may have aggro problems, but the fact remains, ZC chose to improve the already very capable class of the RK instead of fixing the sadly high number of borked hunter skills in U6. Your problems may be valid, but ours are indeed more pronounced. We are the baby who needs the candy more, but somehow ZC saw fit to, as I've said before (and I like the way I said this!), tune up the bugatti RKs over the rotting chevy in the backyard, the hunters.

    U6 seems to include some interesting regions and places to explore, but other than that, it seems to have made the logistical part of the game worse, not better. Balance has not been addressed properly, specifically in the DPS classes, and all it seems to have done is make the classes even more out of balance. Sadly, I think I will only be enjoying the scenery of this update.
    Last edited by Bond007; Mar 11 2012 at 02:41 PM.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

 

 
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