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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    S Korea
    Posts
    961

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    A thread so full of win for a class that's failing. A developer REALLY needs to read and inwardly digest this. The OP nails it - no aggro dump, limited survivability, and limited utility.

    Even if we just had a way to effectively manage our threat, other than borking the rotations, I'd be a lot happier.

    As MJ once said:

    Don't blame it on the Warden
    Don't blame it on the Mini
    Don't blame it on the RK
    Blame it on the Pewpew

    I just can't, I just can't, I just can't control my threat

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Tirith Rhaw
    Posts
    3,169

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    especially with the introduction of audacity to the Moors, there's no positives at all for hunters with update 6. I'll likely get my next PvP rank, since I'm only 60k away and then probably sail off into the sun set. There are other classes that just much more useful overall.

    Its really a shame they can't figure out some way to make us hit harder the closer our enemies get to us. idk, just a thought.
    [CENTER][FONT=Garamond][B][COLOR=#424242]« [COLOR=#FF0000]S[/COLOR]eyz [COLOR=#FF0000]V[/COLOR]anguard - R14 »[/COLOR][/B][/FONT]

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042040000000a4551/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [/CENTER]

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    439

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmanda View Post
    My hunter does OK with DPS. He also does OK in the surviving department.

    Maybe if you concentrated less on BIG DAMAGE ALL AT ONCE OMG! and a little more on sustained damage, true DPS-style, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    Maybe if you read ALL of your trait sets and LI build possibilities, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    Maybe if you didn't make one-dimensional characters, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    The problem is NOT the way the class works. The problem is the way people build their characters. Yes, you can make a total glass cannon with no morale, no real way to mitigate threat, and no way to deal with a mob in your face. Yes, you can ignore half of your skills because they're not BOOM BOOM OMG LOOK AT THE PRETTY YELLOW NUMBERS sorts of skills.

    Just don't whine about the consequences.

    Build a balanced character.
    I have three points:

    1. You don't know what you're talking about.
    2. You don't know what you're talking about.
    3. You still don't know what you're talking about.

    I won't rehash what the OP said about the mechanics of the class being at odds with how we're supposed to play in a group because what he says is sound and in many words is really saying what #1 does, above.

    I'll expound on another point a little that is also many words to say #2. You set up a nice strawman with your 'big pretty numbers' speech that is largely parroted from someone else that said it in a more applicable circumstance. Example, in lightning the other night I pulled aggro on the final burn with 300k left on the troll after having spent the first 100k endurance QSing, then the next 500k in endurance... after my 10s BN wore off the troll came back and destroyed me within a few seconds. Guess my unbuffed morale in this build was? 7.5k. PLEASE tell me how that constitutes anything other than you saying something idiotic and not knowing what you're talking about.

    Furthermore, in the same raid, the burglar pulled aggro at 800k left, (doing more DPS than me at that point too), HIPSed and never pulled aggro again despite going crazy the rest of the fight. The point being, other classes wind up doing more damage than us because aggro on hunter is literally completely out of control and very much in control for them... plus they have fairly equivalent dps without the aggro taken into account. We have legitimate complaints and I'd appreciate it if you'd take a night class or something about the situation before spouting off garbage like "you're all huntards" that out of pure unbridled ignorance. (Which is summarized in #3 above.)

  4. #29

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    my greatest concern is with the ever increasing single hit damage that they are giving mobs, we will not be even able to deal with a signature solo without help. As it stands we need a maxed out soldier or raid gear just to do a t1 skirmish. I am greatly concerned that if we don't get survivability with Riders we wont be able to do landscape mobs solo at 85 let alone a signature. I had a 75 signature in the isen ring hit me for a breach armour and 2.5K damage. That is almost half most hunters health if that increases without a substantial rise in either mits , morale, or healing we will have a hard time at 85.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  5. #30
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    4,036

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I would think that 5 years in somebody would have the testicular fortitude to say that we need to forget everything we think we know about the class and just build a new one from the ground up.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  6. #31

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    To maximize your hunter's effectiveness you are gives 4 short duration skills that add a hefty amount of damage to your initial burst of dps. Two use focus and one is your focus builder, which cannot be used once the first attack is taken. So the skills given to the hunter by the devs to make the most of your dps are front loaded skills. This means you have a 10 - 15 second sweet spot when they are all running... wait longer than that and the skills run out, and some cannot be reacivated until you are out of combat. My point is we are built by the devs for all out "BOOM BOOM" as you call it in the first moments of the fight. Yet you will completely screw the tank because there is no way for them to hold the aggro if a hunter acts as his or her skills demand. Without an aggro dump we cannot maximize the skills we are given, because we will own aggro and be dead due to the lack of armour, mits and low morale builds that we must carry to raid. The current situation is counterproductive in that to make the best use of our skills we need to jump on the gas at the start of every fight. That is when a hunter will do its best dps, yet by doing so we negate our usefullness to the raid by sucking up massive heals, a incombat rez or giving the tank a stroke. This is how the hunter was built... the skills make no sense in that they are on such short timers, use focus and cannot be easily activated so that they are all up at once. IF a hunter is good enough to do this they will put out some outrageous numbers by using the skills we are expected to use by the devs. The big problem is there isn't ANY way not cause problems for the raid because of how hunters lack the skills needed to survive that window of top damage on their own. This is a flaw in the toon, not the players.

    I discussed several other major flaws that work against each other in the post. Like I said we are square peg toons being asked to do round hole jobs. This is a broken aspect of the character we play. We live with it and work around it by throttling back our aggro, choosing stances that limit our dps, or must dance on the knife edge of threat to attain the dps numbers we need to show to be a useful part of a raid. NO OTHER CLASS needs to do the balancing act we have to. We are supposed to be TOP TIER SINGLE TARGET dps kings, yet all other classes can solo elite and some master elite mobs while we cannot due to the poorly designed character you play now. Expain how I can be top anything if I am preforming at the bottom of the pile when it comes to high morale, hard hitting mobs?

    I have tried yellow line, have a second age yellow line bow, and the problem still remains most elite mobs are CC immune to the skills a yellow line hunter brings to the table. If you find a mob like this that you can CC, you sweat it out because you have already lowered your dps and can only take two or three hits before you are almost dead.... or one if it crits at the wrong time. This also brings into play our lack of reliable healing skills. If you cannot at least heal 2k -3K every minute or so there is no way to take down a 140k mob, yet that is the mountain we are given to climb.

    The hunter class makes no sense when you look at what it is designed to do, and then look at what skills are given to see that job finished. Glass cannons they call us, well we can only work with what we are given, and we haven't been given anything for two books now. We are given useless PVP armour with bonuses that would make you laugh if you weren't already sobbing. How can any dev go 0 for 6 on the bonuses on three seperate armour sets? What does that tell you as a hunter. No one thinks things out, or sees the inconsistancies inherent in the class. They keep making things worse because not one dev knows how a hunter should function properly are burst dps, a long term steady fire machine gun or god forbid a formidible CC class that can also put up good dps numbers along with being able to function almost as well as a LM or burg.

    The hunter needs to be looked at from the ground up and the changes made must make sense instead of counteracting the role we are expected to fulfill. Fix the mitagations and make medium armour mean something again. Stop forcing us to find work arounds to make a borked character look acutally playable.

    Tydalmir
    right on the money +rep
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/22221000000041512/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  7. #32

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter... and how can we fix it?

    +rep to OP as well.

    I have an excellent morale level (8864), good power pool (3276), good Agility (1465) with decent Ranged Crit (5200) and a pretty good Evade (5860). Unbuffed. I have poor Might and Will.
    My survivability is usually pretty good, but unless the Tank is really good, it's usually we hunters pulling the mobs off them. And then we can play ping pong with the heavies.
    My Power Regen right now is sub-par (351 Fate).
    I run in Precision most of the time but do Stance-Dance often. Even in Precision and a 7116 Finesse Rating I miss a lot. Nothing like seeing Merciful Shot or even Heart Seeker fly over the shoulder of the boss... oops... bad arrow!

    Even with the Threat legacies on the bow and Beneath Notice (which we all know only reduces threat temporarily) active I find myself pretending to be a warden (though quieter).

    So what can we do to fix our class?
    • Keep suggestions going. Make them well-thought out and keep them clear. I'm a bad one for straying from a topic.
    • Don't flame. Let everyone voice their concerns and ideas no matter how silly they may sound, sometimes there is a germ of a gem in a daft comment.
    • Yes, we are passionate about our classes. Many of us have invested years into them. Try not to go too emo while debating your point. I know it's hard... get up and walk away from your keyboard for a minute if you have to, it works!
    A few things I'd like to see to improve our beloved class:
    • Move the threat reduction legacy into a single Threat reduction that is inherent to the bow, not a legacy.
      • Have the -Threat a fixed amount and scaled from 3rd age (low) to 1st Age (high) as a reasonable %.
    • Scale up the Legendary Traits (example):
      • Bow of the Righteous: A properly equipped hunter shouldn't be running out of power unless running purely in Strength Stance and definately not when in Endurance Stance.
      • Press Onward: Make the morale recovery scaled to the level of current morale and power, this should really be a realistic % value of max. 25 - 50% (could be tied in to Legacies/Traitlines).
    • Precision Stance should really affect your target's Block/Parry/Evade, it doesn't seem to be working as stated. I know I've been logging a lot of misses post-ROI.
    • Heartseeker, yes it misses. We've flogged this dead horse into multiple incarnations and it still smells.
    • Ranged Interrupt. This is really a great idea. Now that wardens have one, no reason hunters shouldn't as well. Give us one with a lesser cooldown.
    • Ranged single-target sustainable dps. Yes, burst should be sporadic and amazing (and even rare to prevent the copy/paste crits in GLFF from flooding the channels), but the sustainable ranged damage should be higher than the other classes, that's our role. Ranged damage.
    I'm going to stop here for now, we can be heard, but we have to say it the right way. I've been here since beta and I'm here to stay and in my experience, say it the way you'd like to hear it and you won't be looking at a locked discussion.
    Grinthalion of Landroval

    Author of useful Sindarin phrases for travellers in elf-lands:

    "Aniron galenas" = [I]"Would you have any pipeweed?"[/I]
    "Im innas úgar sen galenas ten rhibi!" =[I] "I will not buy this pipeweed, it is scratched[/I]!"
    "Im na alanann gwaur" = [I]"I am no longer infected[/I]"

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    439

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter... and how can we fix it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinn View Post
    +rep to OP as well.

    I have an excellent morale level (8864), good power pool (3276), good Agility (1465) with decent Ranged Crit (5200) and a pretty good Evade (5860). Unbuffed. I have poor Might and Will.
    My survivability is usually pretty good, but unless the Tank is really good, it's usually we hunters pulling the mobs off them. And then we can play ping pong with the heavies.
    My Power Regen right now is sub-par (351 Fate).
    I run in Precision most of the time but do Stance-Dance often. Even in Precision and a 7116 Finesse Rating I miss a lot. Nothing like seeing Merciful Shot or even Heart Seeker fly over the shoulder of the boss... oops... bad arrow!

    Even with the Threat legacies on the bow and Beneath Notice (which we all know only reduces threat temporarily) active I find myself pretending to be a warden (though quieter).
    You have extremely high morale, high power (but low ICPR unfortunately high power is kinda pointless for us), lowish agility, REALLY low crit and a lowish evade and I can imagine that your physical mastery is in the 14-16k range. The fact that you can pull aggro with that build is astonishing, and honestly a better argument for the ridiculousness of our aggro generation than anything else in the thread.

    The rest of the post is +1
    Last edited by Thraxz1982; Mar 09 2012 at 08:07 PM.

  9. #34

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter... and how can we fix it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thraxz1982 View Post
    You have extremely high morale, high power (but low ICPR unfortunately high power is kinda pointless for us), lowish agility, REALLY low crit and a lowish evade and I can imagine that your physical mastery is in the 14-16k range. The fact that you can pull aggro with that build is astonishing, and honestly a better argument for the ridiculousness of our aggro generation than anything else in the thread.

    The rest of the post is +1
    OT: Agreed, working on moving Agility up further and reducing Vit. PM is 17,937 atm.
    Was more worried at the start of RoI not to end up with a glass cannon, but have been very aware that the build continues to evolve towards the high Agility end. Goal was to be around 1700+ Agi & 5800 Crit without sacrificing too much morale. And yes, pulling threat with this build (in Endurance Stance even) does speak volumes for how our Thread Generation is pure silly.
    Grinthalion of Landroval

    Author of useful Sindarin phrases for travellers in elf-lands:

    "Aniron galenas" = [I]"Would you have any pipeweed?"[/I]
    "Im innas úgar sen galenas ten rhibi!" =[I] "I will not buy this pipeweed, it is scratched[/I]!"
    "Im na alanann gwaur" = [I]"I am no longer infected[/I]"

  10. #35

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    First off, +rep to the OP

    Second off, I feel sad for my own hunter because after reading the post because I immediately looked at all the times I have repeatedly posted the same comments since joining the forums and a) gotten ZERO support for what I posted, b) other hunters telling me I didn't know what I was saying, etc.

    The unspoken elephant in this room is that the hatred towards hunters in this game does not come from other classes alone - it comes from other hunters as well - those who believe they have "the secret" that the rest of us are just too flippin stupid to get.

    I have played my hunter, who was once my main, for over two years and during that time have seen things go more and more south in raids. I have enjoyed moors, solo fights, and t2 skirmishes immensely, even now... but dread even thinking about trying ToO raids with her for the aggro she can generate even in endurance with QS. I gave up the super bling and knocked off over 500 agility and she is still getting aggro even when (I REPEAT) using nothing but endurance and QS.

    I will do the level dance up to 85 when it arrives _I will never give up my love for my hunter -- but as you can see from my signature - my LM and my cappy will be the ones in raids until such time as this issue is resolved... if ever.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/012080000001f16b2/signature.png]Alesar[/charsig]

    "There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    241

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    Right. So build a hunter with higher mitigations and morale, but lose 1/3 of your dps. Let the burgs/champs/rks easily surpass you as a dps class and you will truly achieve what you were made to do as a class. Mhm, I feel a change of heart.
    Edited to add this in: I took a quick peek at your character page and couldn't help but notice you are wearing a 122 might earring, a 122 might helm, and a 92 might bracelet. I now think I see your perspective. Let me just say this: ever since RoI you are gimping your hunter if you wear might gear. It does not affect your melee dps, all it does is give minimal physical mit (largely unuseful, tact mit has gained more notice in end game raids). You claim you have a balanced toon, yet I can hit 7k mitigations and still maintain more than your 1k agil. Now, why am I being so blunt? Because, quite frankly, it angers me when people claim hunters are ok if you balance, when those same people don't understand the true capabilities of any class, ignoring hunters for now, after RoI removed the stat cap. You might think your hunter is ok, but the truth is, your toon is probably, at best, half the potential of any moors-geared hunter, which would be the closest thing to the "perfect balanced hunter". And let me tell you, compared to other classes that are closing the dps gap, our "balance" makes us laughable.
    You might think you have a pretty decent toon, but you are only hurting it even further if you don't realize with itemization as it is currently, we HAVE NO CHOICE other than stacking agil, in order to compete with other classes and maintain our rapidly deteriorating position as the joke of a king of dps
    What else does might do for you that agility doesn't? (By the way, there is always a choice.)

    I agree with you, that if your ONLY goal is big DPS, then yes - the hunter class has problems. I just don't think that should be your only goal, necessarily.

    You might WANT to pull aggro, say, off of the healer(s). Then you want to be able to survive long enough for the tank to get that aggro off of YOU. Parry, kite, whatever. There are different ways to attack the problem. Rummage around in your tool bag.

    If all you do is carry a hammer around, everything starts looking like a nail, right? Even if it isn't. The hunter class is already becoming more and more of a one-trick pony, and what you're all asking for is for it to become MORE of a one-trick pony. Fie on that. FIE, says I.

    Also, when did this become a class competition for DPS king? Do you really care THAT much? Really? Do you not have any fun actually *playing* the content? Is it all about the numbers? Because I can highly recommend fantasy sports leagues for that sort of thing. They're pretty enjoyable for the number-crunching fans among us.

    Then again, apparently I don't know what I'm talking about, what with my few pieces of might gear and my non-PVMP perspective and all. I'm sort of glad I don't play a FPS. I'm afraid I will end up in one soon, though, if you all get your way.

  12. #37
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    Jun 2008
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    241

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter... and how can we fix it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinn View Post
    [*]Move the threat reduction legacy into a single Threat reduction that is inherent to the bow, not a legacy.
    I think this is an excellent suggestion (and yes, I understand that it's been suggested many times by many people).

  13. #38
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    Jun 2008
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    241

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Toad View Post
    It seems to me that the posts in this thread do not warrant your comments. The OP clearly detailed that nearly *all* approaches to hunter builds result in the same core issues. In brief, those are lack of self-heals, far too many high-induction skills, poor self-defense skills, low inherent damage mitigation, virtually no ability to shed threat, and lack of any truly useful or valued role in groups other than as a single-target nuker.

    I have read little whining; I have read reasoned and thoughtful analyses of what is currently making the hunter class difficult and frustrating to play in the more challenging content.

    For my part, I prefer to play and almost always spec for a CC build. I very much enjoy the flexibility it provides in most soloing content. I trait as best I can for mitigation, armour, and resistances. My hunter virtues are generally the same as I choose for my guardian. I don't stack agility. I have never traited deep into the red line (I usually run solo with five yellow, two red or blue), unless instructed to do so by my raid leader. For some of the more difficult solo content, I have tried every reasonable combination of virtues and class traits I can imagine.

    Based upon the comments of other posters in this thread, I suspect most of us have tried a number of different approaches to the class.

    Your insinuation that it is merely hunter builds that are at fault is unjustified.
    Overall point taken.

  14. #39
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    Jun 2011
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    21

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thraxz1982 View Post
    Example, in lightning the other night I pulled aggro on the final burn with 300k left on the troll after having spent the first 100k endurance QSing, then the next 500k in endurance... after my 10s BN wore off the troll came back and destroyed me within a few seconds. Guess my unbuffed morale in this build was? 7.5k. PLEASE tell me how that constitutes anything other than you saying something idiotic and not knowing what you're talking about.

    Furthermore, in the same raid, the burglar pulled aggro at 800k left, (doing more DPS than me at that point too), HIPSed and never pulled aggro again despite going crazy the rest of the fight. The point being, other classes wind up doing more damage than us because aggro on hunter is literally completely out of control and very much in control for them... plus they have fairly equivalent dps without the aggro taken into account.
    So much agree with this - if I could have one improvement it would be proper agro reducing skills without gimping dps (too much). I run with the -% threat book all the time, still the only way I can control agro is by spamming quickshot for the first half the fight, no burgs provoke/hips, no champ ebb, no RK mystifying flame, just a 10 second perceived threat drop - yippee :~

    I pulled agro in the Orthanc giant wing the other night - on the second giant after the guard had threat stance engaged him off the warden and I'd been hitting the solely the first giant for the initial minute and a half of the fight. . . was surprised to say the least, going all out and expected the guard to have enough of a lead, but once it happened there was nothing I could do (used beneath notice for max dps on first giant).

  15. #40
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    Jan 2010
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    79

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter... and how can we fix it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinn View Post
    Even in Precision and a 7116 Finesse Rating I miss a lot. Nothing like seeing Merciful Shot or even Heart Seeker fly over the shoulder of the boss... oops... bad arrow!
    I'm sure people have stated this numerous times, but here it goes again: Finesse has absolutely *no* bearing on miss chance, it is strictly a lowering of your chance to get b/p/e'd and/or resisted. Also it has been stated by a dev that if:

    Your level = x
    Target's level = y

    Then:

    x + 1 or 2 = y, there is an *unavoidable* 3% miss chance
    x + 3 or 4 = y, there is an *unavoidable* 10% miss chance

    Those numbers are in addition to any miss chance obtained by your current level of agility (or lack of). So at level 75 with an average amount of agility (~1700), you will parse a 10% miss chance (yes, even on Heartseeker) on most raid bosses, who are level 78.

  16. #41

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmanda View Post
    You might WANT to pull aggro, say, off of the healer(s). Then you want to be able to survive long enough for the tank to get that aggro off of YOU. Parry, kite, whatever. There are different ways to attack the problem. Rummage around in your tool bag.

    If all you do is carry a hammer around, everything starts looking like a nail, right? Even if it isn't. The hunter class is already becoming more and more of a one-trick pony, and what you're all asking for is for it to become MORE of a one-trick pony. Fie on that. FIE, says I.
    :/ you remind me of a certain warden a few days back who posted on glff that he was certain he could out-dps any hunter or burg, and he proceeded to share his build of largely will/fate items. He then went on to say how he could heal a full group just by using conviction. He was completely serious.
    Maybe you should look at the character you hold before you accuse people of thinking thru it the wrong way. If you've got a hammer in your hand, you shouldnt be trying to use it as a band aid. My fact is, the class as it is currently designed is meant for these big numbers, "BOOM BOOM BOOM". A simple look at the skills will show you. Your fact about parry, kite til aggro's off would be perfectly feasible except for two things: finesse (bosses have quite a bit, cutting thu our BPE like cheese) and ranged attacks, another thing RoI bosses are chock full of. Better yet, ranged AOEs!! Oh boy, that makes the dps/healer group happy. When the hunter pulls aggro for 2 seconds and the boss wipes your healer. Right now, our "tool bag" is running low. The OP pointed this out quite well actually. Feel free to re-read his post.
    I have nothing against your gear lol. It's just that I find gear to be the most revealing factor about how people play the class. You can't play a hunter like a might class, we aren't supposed to be the lower dps survivability machines a champ is. If you're gonna play that way, I see no further reason to argue. Like I said before, a hammer isn't a band aid, no matter how much you may want it to be
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    183

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter... and how can we fix it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinn View Post
    +rep to OP as well.

    So what can we do to fix our class?
    • Keep suggestions going. Make them well-thought out and keep them clear. I'm a bad one for straying from a topic.
    • Don't flame. Let everyone voice their concerns and ideas no matter how silly they may sound, sometimes there is a germ of a gem in a daft comment.
    • Yes, we are passionate about our classes. Many of us have invested years into them. Try not to go too emo while debating your point. I know it's hard... get up and walk away from your keyboard for a minute if you have to, it works!

    A few things I'd like to see to improve our beloved class:
    • Move the threat reduction legacy into a single Threat reduction that is inherent to the bow, not a legacy.
      • Have the -Threat a fixed amount and scaled from 3rd age (low) to 1st Age (high) as a reasonable %.

    • Scale up the Legendary Traits (example):
      • Bow of the Righteous: A properly equipped hunter shouldn't be running out of power unless running purely in Strength Stance and definately not when in Endurance Stance.
      • Press Onward: Make the morale recovery scaled to the level of current morale and power, this should really be a realistic % value of max. 25 - 50% (could be tied in to Legacies/Traitlines).

    • Precision Stance should really affect your target's Block/Parry/Evade, it doesn't seem to be working as stated. I know I've been logging a lot of misses post-ROI.
    • Heartseeker, yes it misses. We've flogged this dead horse into multiple incarnations and it still smells.
    • Ranged Interrupt. This is really a great idea. Now that wardens have one, no reason hunters shouldn't as well. Give us one with a lesser cooldown.
    • Ranged single-target sustainable dps. Yes, burst should be sporadic and amazing (and even rare to prevent the copy/paste crits in GLFF from flooding the channels), but the sustainable ranged damage should be higher than the other classes, that's our role. Ranged damage.

    I'm going to stop here for now, we can be heard, but we have to say it the right way. I've been here since beta and I'm here to stay and in my experience, say it the way you'd like to hear it and you won't be looking at a locked discussion.
    +rep to you and the OP.

    ZC has said there is no way he'll give us another interrupt. I'd just ask that our interrupt be changed from melee to ranged. I think we'd just about all be happy with that.
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  18. #43

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmanda View Post
    What else does might do for you that agility doesn't? (By the way, there is always a choice.)

    I agree with you, that if your ONLY goal is big DPS, then yes - the hunter class has problems. I just don't think that should be your only goal, necessarily.

    You might WANT to pull aggro, say, off of the healer(s). Then you want to be able to survive long enough for the tank to get that aggro off of YOU. Parry, kite, whatever. There are different ways to attack the problem. Rummage around in your tool bag.

    If all you do is carry a hammer around, everything starts looking like a nail, right? Even if it isn't. The hunter class is already becoming more and more of a one-trick pony, and what you're all asking for is for it to become MORE of a one-trick pony. Fie on that. FIE, says I.

    Also, when did this become a class competition for DPS king? Do you really care THAT much? Really? Do you not have any fun actually *playing* the content? Is it all about the numbers? Because I can highly recommend fantasy sports leagues for that sort of thing. They're pretty enjoyable for the number-crunching fans among us.

    Then again, apparently I don't know what I'm talking about, what with my few pieces of might gear and my non-PVMP perspective and all. I'm sort of glad I don't play a FPS. I'm afraid I will end up in one soon, though, if you all get your way.
    You play your toon as you see fit and is fun for you... don't let me or anyone else here change your mind on that. Everyone plays differently, but that is not my point. My point is that the class is flawed in its structure, purpose and skills given to achieve our design within the system. We are a dps class with nothing else (I will speak of yellow line in a minute) to recommend us to a group or raid. Therefore, we must be able to maximize this role without endangering the group or raid. I will not rehash the two statements I have made so please reread them for those points. At this time we cannot do this efficiently while other dps classes can.

    If you solo, then there are the problems of dealing with high damage, high morale mobs (elietes). We can hit them very hard, but we cannot take the damage they deal out. We don't have the armour, mits or reliable healing to combat that much morale. The devs make us hit harder.... that is not the solution... but that is exactly what they give us, and that bleeds over into the grouping/raiding section as threat aggro. We cannot race 70k with 7-8k as a class. Some hunters have very novel ways to do it once in awhile (when EVERYTHING goes exactly as planned and no resists show up) but no where near a consistant basis that ALL other classes can. No hunter can face a 140k mob, yet other classes can. Why should a ranged dps toon not be allowed to at least have a chance at taking on mobs other classes can defeat?

    Yellow line...can it be viable... maybe. The skills and bonuses for yellow line need reworking in major ways. The skills are locked into a time when boss mobs could be rooted and feared along with elietes. This is not the case anymore. Same goes for PVMP, pots have made hunter CC especially the heavy traits to traps moot. Traps need another function besides holding a target, same goes with snares. If carefully mangaged traps and snares can provided debuffs that we can use solo, and as group and raiders. Nothing over the top but something that can help to turn the tide. Split shot is a woefully poor skill. Yet with one simple change I can get many hunters to use it. On crit it resets ROT.... instead of ROA. This would make it attractive to all hunters but would really help yellow liners. We need a mez... pure and simple a decent length mez that has a longer cooldown that can be effected by an LI trait. Hunters have 3 extra LI spots on our bows that are used to double dip into power, damage, and threat.... get rid of them. This will open up extra possibilites for us a class. Make it 4 slots if you put threat reduction on the bow itself. This can make the class much more diverse and functional.

    The problem with hunters and our devs is that we are being reactive not proactive in the changes being made. Mobs morale is now 1 million plus... increase damage.. seems right but that has too many unmanagable side effects. We are not stepping back and looking at the core skills to make a solid class built for all uses that a hunter can fulfill. Instead the devs are making changes that put hunters deeper into the hole of a one trick pony.

    Many of us have thoughts that can make hunters much more stable in all aspects of the game. In-combat campfire could provide just enough healing and power return to take on the high morale, high damage mobs. This would also be attractive to group and raids (see this is a win win win skill that helps in all phases of the game: solo, group, raid and PVMP and we need more of these types of skills) Getting rid of a 4 second animation could give us a 3-4k morale return when we need it would work as well. Reworking LIs can open up our class to being something more than dps kings, but we will never know until we start changing the way a hunter is built from the ground up. I am not advocating that my class be OP kings of all... I just want it to be a solid, well thought out and efficient class that others value, that can be played to the same level as all other classes and be diverse enough to be enjoyed by all hunters, espeically those who want something other than pew pew...BOOM BOOM.

    Tydalmir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Mar 10 2012 at 07:30 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    241

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I agree with your overall point, Tinluen, that there are problems with the way the hunter fits into groups these days. But I still maintain that it has less to do with the hunter class than it does with external factors.

    First of all, I apologize for my snarky tone. It comes, mostly, from people (mostly other hunters) dismissing my build and my gear on my main (hunter) because it's not all-AG, all-DPS, all the time. I get a little snarky about it, and I shouldn't. When I end up being last man standing in a ToO raid, and live for 30 seconds longer with ALL of the Sarumans on me, and the rest of the raid is yelling at me to "die, already!" so that they can reset... well. I know I'm doing OK. But it's also true that if I DO get hit just once or twice by a big boss with lots of finesse, then I'm toast. I can live with that. I guess most can't.

    I do think, as has already been suggested by others, that the biggest problem with hunters comes from the lifting of the level cap. I also agree that a strengthening of certain 'tools in the toolbelt' (or at least diversification) wouldn't be a BAD thing. I just don't think that we shouldn't have to sacrifice massive DPS to gain access to those tools.

    I run 4R3B, nearly always in precision, and keep up a steady and very fast stream of DPS. I start of very slowly on bosses and let tanks build aggro (all the basic tactics that I'm sure you all know very well). I would offer that if a tank can't hold aggro off of me, then the tank needs work. I don't do massive DPS, but I do very high DPS very constantly. I'm usually #2 or #3 on the "aggro list." If something breaks to me, I swipe it and my parry is at 10k (evade is 7-8k). If it's not a boss with a ton of finesse, it usually has trouble hitting me while I stick its face full of arrows.

    If it IS a boss, then things get dicey, and there's no way to describe how that goes, because it depends on the boss. I have a problem surviving against ranged AoE (as noted previously) and AoE damage like fire-on-the-floor and such. But I can live with that. As a hunter I'm not really *supposed* to be a tank. I can hold some bosses for short periods - usually long enough for the actual tank to grab them again. Sometimes I have to run away like a ninny. Sometimes I die.

    But then again, I play mostly with the same folks over and over, and we all know our roles pretty well. I'm spoiled (and I know it). I don't do raid content in PuGs (though filling with pick-ups sometimes). I don't go on the Moors regularly. I really don't even LIKE raiding, because I'm not a fan of grinding content. What I *like* to do is work with a tight-knit machine of a group, and attack a particular problem until it's solved AS a group. I like to be a part of that machine, and contribute. Even when that means leading PuG skraids (ugh).

    I say all of this so you can know where I'm coming from. I think the hunter was 100% fine until the level cap was raised, so in one point, I agree with you - things got weird when RoI was released. But I agree for a reason that I think is different than yours. Not because the hunter class is broken, but because the overall SYSTEM is broken w/o the level cap.

    And also because the drive toward a solo/raid dichotomy without any 'fellowship' content in between is killing the teambuilding that taught PLAYERS how to work together to achieve goals. That's gone now, so our hunters are grouping with tanks who many times haven't learned multi-mob management, with healers who don't know how to minimize healing threat, with champs who don't know ANYTHING but shing-shing, etc. And with other hunters who don't know anything but maximizing DPS - it must be said. I'm not saying that everyone here is that way - but I am saying that most of the level-capped hunters in the game do seem to be that way.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    San Rafael, California
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    424

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmanda View Post
    I agree with your overall point, Tinluen, that there are problems with the way the hunter fits into groups these days. But I still maintain that it has less to do with the hunter class than it does with external factors.

    First of all, I apologize for my snarky tone. It comes, mostly, from people (mostly other hunters) dismissing my build and my gear on my main (hunter) because it's not all-AG, all-DPS, all the time. I get a little snarky about it, and I shouldn't....
    +rep for you, fellow hunter.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmanda View Post
    And also because the drive toward a solo/raid dichotomy without any 'fellowship' content in between is killing the teambuilding that taught PLAYERS how to work together to achieve goals. That's gone now, so our hunters are grouping with tanks who many times haven't learned multi-mob management, with healers who don't know how to minimize healing threat, with champs who don't know ANYTHING but shing-shing, etc. And with other hunters who don't know anything but maximizing DPS - it must be said. I'm not saying that everyone here is that way - but I am saying that most of the level-capped hunters in the game do seem to be that way.
    You are absolutely correct. I'm not sure what Turbine can do about this. There's just so darn much content between level 1 and end-game (soon to be even a greater gulf when the level cap goes to 85), and not enough players clustered in the middle levels to form fellowships. I understand why former fellowship content -- particularly the Epic content -- is gradually converted to solo content. It is difficult for the devs to force group content on the way to level-cap. I am encouraged to see a lot of mid-20 groups forming in Bree for the Great Barrows, likely because the loot is so good. Perhaps the promise of good gear is the best carrot that Turbine can offer to encourage lower-level players to dabble with group mechanics prior to level cap?

    /derailment off
    Last edited by Dark_Toad; Mar 10 2012 at 11:18 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0220400000001854b/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [FONT=times new roman][COLOR=#FFFFE0]Known alts on Meneldor:[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982798155/"]Palandramir[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Hunter ~[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982929667/"]Talagant[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Minstrel ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/169749/145241087982745229/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Chiton[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Guardian[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#add8e6]
    [/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982729798/"][COLOR=#daa520]Filbert[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6]: 75 Minstrel[/COLOR] [COLOR=#add8e6]~[/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982808928/"] Dakkri[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 71 Guardian ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087983296677/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Stammel[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Captain
    [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983521225/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Elaichi[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 65 Loremaster ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983541171/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Tribble[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 66 Warden ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983630184/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Caper[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 64 Burglar [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=#d3d3d3][SIZE=1]Gigabyte X58A-UD5 | Intel Core i7-950 | 12 GB Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600MHz | Gigabyte GTX 670 |[/SIZE]
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  21. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,864

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmanda View Post
    I agree with your overall point, Tinluen, that there are problems with the way the hunter fits into groups these days. But I still maintain that it has less to do with the hunter class than it does with external factors.

    First of all, I apologize for my snarky tone. It comes, mostly, from people (mostly other hunters) dismissing my build and my gear on my main (hunter) because it's not all-AG, all-DPS, all the time. I get a little snarky about it, and I shouldn't. When I end up being last man standing in a ToO raid, and live for 30 seconds longer with ALL of the Sarumans on me, and the rest of the raid is yelling at me to "die, already!" so that they can reset... well. I know I'm doing OK. But it's also true that if I DO get hit just once or twice by a big boss with lots of finesse, then I'm toast. I can live with that. I guess most can't.

    ....

    If something breaks to me, I swipe it and my parry is at 10k (evade is 7-8k). If it's not a boss with a ton of finesse, it usually has trouble hitting me while I stick its face full of arrows.
    They're not dismissing it because you're not going all-agi, all-DPS. They're dismissing it because you go for survivability through getting 650-700 might.

    Example: You went for might+vitality earrings while 2x http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Item:..._Th%C3%A9odred would have given:
    10 less Vitality
    306 more parry (your earrings give 306 (153 might x2) parry in total, these give 612)
    almost 600 more morale
    284 less power.
    300 less physical mitigation
    300 more crit

    Dont tell me that your choice of earrings will give any more survivability than what this alternative can supply. The same goes for your other might items, there are simply better items out there that allow you to have higher mitigations, higher parry+evade and more morale without dropping down to only 1000 agility.

    EDIT: I would like to see you reach 10k parry and 7-8k evade with that build, outside a skirmish instance.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Mar 10 2012 at 11:32 AM.

  22. #47
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    Mar 2007
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    San Rafael, California
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    424

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter... and how can we fix it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinn View Post

    Even with the Threat legacies on the bow and Beneath Notice (which we all know only reduces threat temporarily) active I find myself pretending to be a warden (though quieter).

    So what can we do to fix our class?
    • Move the threat reduction legacy into a single Threat reduction that is inherent to the bow, not a legacy.
      • Have the -Threat a fixed amount and scaled from 3rd age (low) to 1st Age (high) as a reasonable %.

    • Scale up the Legendary Traits (example):
      • Bow of the Righteous: A properly equipped hunter shouldn't be running out of power unless running purely in Strength Stance and definately not when in Endurance Stance.
      • Press Onward: Make the morale recovery scaled to the level of current morale and power, this should really be a realistic % value of max. 25 - 50% (could be tied in to Legacies/Traitlines).

    • Precision Stance should really affect your target's Block/Parry/Evade, it doesn't seem to be working as stated. I know I've been logging a lot of misses post-ROI.
    • Heartseeker, yes it misses. We've flogged this dead horse into multiple incarnations and it still smells.
    • Ranged Interrupt. This is really a great idea. Now that wardens have one, no reason hunters shouldn't as well. Give us one with a lesser cooldown.
    • Ranged single-target sustainable dps. Yes, burst should be sporadic and amazing (and even rare to prevent the copy/paste crits in GLFF from flooding the channels), but the sustainable ranged damage should be higher than the other classes, that's our role. Ranged damage.
    Really good stuff.

    I'm not an elite hunter, nor an elite player, but I have been here since closed beta and the hunter in my sig is my original toon. My guardian and minstrel have become my mains since RoI. It is so much harder to find a spot for my hunter in groups; my guardian and minstrel are always wanted. Consequently, I've not had as much experience with the current failings of the class as the other posters here. Still, I'd like to chime in on some of the excellent ideas I've seen proposed so far.

    I agree that threat reduction should be an integral component of our legendary bows, just as threat generation comes with a legendary guardian belt. It doesn't need to be a lot, but it should always be there. I think guardian belts can ID with a range of 1 to 6% (my belt ID'd with 3%) threat generation; it seems something like that -- as a reduction, of course -- could be incorporated into hunter bows. As an aside, it has always struck me as odd that most crafted bows feature a large amount (5 to 10%) of threat reduction, when crafted bows are never used by hunters once we obtain our first LI, and those bows are crafted for classes - guards and champs - who expressly wish to generate threat. I'd like the devs to take a look at both LI bows and crafted bows with threat in mind.

    I agree that both threat reduction and critical chance increase legacies should be rolled into one, not separate legacies split between induction and focus skills. The current mechanics really force us into a corner when building our legendary bows. Reducing four vital legacies to two -- Bow Skill Threat Down and Bow Skill Critical Modifier -- would allow the devs to provide more legacy options for us to choose from, which in turn would give us the opportunity to further refine our play-styles. Given all the on-the-fly diversity offered to other classes over the last half-year, I suspect our turn is coming; we just need to be patient. *sigh*

    I would like to see a ranged interrupt. There are too many mobs with induction skills that simply must be interrupted; it does not seem fair to force an inherently ranged class to rush into melee range to interrupt such skills. While we have bard's arrow and distracting shot that interrupt on a hit, the 1.5 second induction makes them useless as reliable interrupts. Perhaps a trait or legacy could be added that would allow us to make Bard's Arrow an instant (non-induction) skill? That would provide us flexibility, but since we'd need to spec for it, would keep it from being overpowered.

    Like all medium armour classes, we took a huge hit in mitigations with RoI; we simply cannot stand toe-to-toe in melee. We've got medium armour, dual-wielding, a large number of melee skills... yet we have no survivability in melee. Hunter melee seems to me to be clearly broken. Light armour loremasters and minstrels are far more effective and in melee than are hunters -- and they have only one or two weapon-based melee skills. I'm not sure what to do about this. I don't want to advocate for further homogenization of the classes by demanding that hunters become more like wardens defensively or champs offensively... but what else can be done? At one time it seemed as if the devs were taking the blue trait line in the direction of melee emphasis, but they backed off from that approach. I think that's good, as our melee effectiveness should not be tied to a build, but mostly inherent in our class. I'm not looking for offensive output. But we need to be able to take and receive a few swings in melee if we are to be viable in most group encounters.

    Self heals. We need some. I love the proposal that our campfire remain functional in combat. Because the campfire is stationary, I don't believe it would be overpowered. It would buff the group, much as does a captain's banner. Just like regen food, an in-combat campfire would provide only a fraction of in-combat regen compared to out-of-combat. This would give us a bit of wiggle room as well as providing us with a tool that would benefit the fellowship. We'd still need to manage our threat in combat in order to remain in range of our campfire.

    I am intrigued by the concept of a morale leeching skill. A few hunters have suggested that Barbed Arrow be converted to a morale leech. I like it. I suspect it should be a trait or legacy, though, rather than an inherent benefit of Blood Arrow.

    Improved Strength of Earth seems, well, useless and in need of Further Improvement. I admit that I've not fiddled with it much. Looking at my current build, I can regain a little under 600 power and morale over five seconds while doing nothing else. I don't see how 600 morale over five seconds helps us in the vast majority of situations in which we need morale. Perhaps the skill needs to scale better to level 75 and morale pools of 7,000; perhaps it should return a percentage of morale; perhaps it is just a bad skill.

    I miss Precision Stance. I think it was broken by the introduction of Finesse. In a sense, Precision was Finesse before Finesse existed. I suggest that a Finesse boost be added to the Precision stance - I think the equivalent of a couple good armour pieces of Finesse would have an impact without being overpowered (2,000 or so, scaling with level).

    That's all I've got for now.

    Let's keep this thread going -- and keep it positive!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0220400000001854b/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [FONT=times new roman][COLOR=#FFFFE0]Known alts on Meneldor:[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982798155/"]Palandramir[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Hunter ~[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982929667/"]Talagant[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Minstrel ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/169749/145241087982745229/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Chiton[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Guardian[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#add8e6]
    [/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982729798/"][COLOR=#daa520]Filbert[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6]: 75 Minstrel[/COLOR] [COLOR=#add8e6]~[/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982808928/"] Dakkri[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 71 Guardian ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087983296677/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Stammel[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Captain
    [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983521225/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Elaichi[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 65 Loremaster ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983541171/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Tribble[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 66 Warden ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983630184/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Caper[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 64 Burglar [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=#d3d3d3][SIZE=1]Gigabyte X58A-UD5 | Intel Core i7-950 | 12 GB Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600MHz | Gigabyte GTX 670 |[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1] OCZ Vertex 2 120 GB (OS) | 3 x OCZ Vertex 2 40GB (LotRO) | Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty[/SIZE][/COLOR]

  23. #48

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Crowd control is useless against most bosses. Make all crowd control skills for all classes give a debuff of the same duration - tactical mitigation for fears and dazes, physical mitigation for traps and similar. While this alone wouldn't be enough to fix the yellow trait line, something has to be done to make crowd control skills relevant in boss fights, or no changes to our skills there will help.

    Make reusable traps available in the yellow trait line, as an alternative class item. Add an extra trap type, thorn hedge, a one minute hotspot that puts a bleed on everything that approaches us, not just the first one. Don't force us to trade dps for crowd control skills though; that just leaves us falling between stools. We need to be first rate at something, and it's never going to be crowd control.

    We need more skills that help other players, so we have something to contribute besides dps, same as the other classes. A threat transfer skill would go with burst damage - for ten seconds, all damage we do adds to tank's threat, great for opening fights, or if the tank's having trouble holding aggro. For sustained damage, I'd say a stance, new or modified, which turns several of our skills into dots doing the same total damage, and applying a debuff. That way, we avoid the big threat spikes, and we can keep up the dps better even while moving.

    Improve the campfire, and let us throw some herbs in it, like the Weathertop skirmish. It can provide some useful buffs, with a moderate range, allowing some extra strategy finding the best place for it.

    Hunters are designed to stand in one spot, at range, and burn the enemy down. We can be mobile and we can melee, but neither is our strong point. Many instances don't let us do that. Of course, there are also instances that penalise champs for being in melee, but rather fewer. This is an issue for the instance design team, not something ZC can do anything about, but giving Wardens a ranged stance may turn out to be helpful. If they start complaining instance design makes their ranged skills ineffective, they may get listened to.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, California
    Posts
    424

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelric View Post
    Improve the campfire, and let us throw some herbs in it, like the Weathertop skirmish. It can provide some useful buffs, with a moderate range, allowing some extra strategy finding the best place for it.
    Very clever and interesting idea! It fits in nicely with the hunter lore, too. I can see herbs that increase resistance to disease or fear, maybe poison, but not wounds. Certainly herbs could increase morale and/or power as well as morale and power regeneration. On the other hand, I'm not sure I would wish to add yet another selection of class items to our backpack. Perhaps the boons provided by our in-combat campfire would be dictated by the stance we are in when the campfire is placed? Changing the campfire's effects as we change stance would be too complex, I suspect.

    Really intriguing thought! I throw rep in your campfire!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0220400000001854b/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [FONT=times new roman][COLOR=#FFFFE0]Known alts on Meneldor:[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982798155/"]Palandramir[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Hunter ~[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982929667/"]Talagant[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Minstrel ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/169749/145241087982745229/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Chiton[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Guardian[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#add8e6]
    [/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982729798/"][COLOR=#daa520]Filbert[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6]: 75 Minstrel[/COLOR] [COLOR=#add8e6]~[/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982808928/"] Dakkri[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 71 Guardian ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087983296677/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Stammel[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Captain
    [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983521225/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Elaichi[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 65 Loremaster ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983541171/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Tribble[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 66 Warden ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983630184/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Caper[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 64 Burglar [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=#d3d3d3][SIZE=1]Gigabyte X58A-UD5 | Intel Core i7-950 | 12 GB Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600MHz | Gigabyte GTX 670 |[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1] OCZ Vertex 2 120 GB (OS) | 3 x OCZ Vertex 2 40GB (LotRO) | Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty[/SIZE][/COLOR]

  25. #50

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Tie the campfire to Stance and scale the OOC regen to Cook crafted campfires, increase the radius to Captain banner, useable in combat with current induction or even a slightly increased induction, call it Improved Campfire and stick it somewhere between 50 and 75.

    Your herbal lore as a veteran Hunter has granted you the knowledge to burn certain herbs to boost your and your fellows abilities

    Endurance Stance - Enduring Campfire, provides ICPR and -2% Power cost on ALL skills

    Precision Stance - Precise Campfire, provides +Finesse, reduces Miss chance on ALL skills.

    Strength Stance - Strong Campfire, provides +Might, +Vitality, and +2 Damage on ALL damage skills

    OR

    Campfires named based on whatever herb/ingredient is being used, such as...

    Athelas Campfire - Provides ICMR/Morale healing

    Celebrant water-doused Campfire - Provides ICPR/Power healing

    etc.

    I know these ideas will be lost in the ether, as ZC will never see them.
    My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit,[I] Defiant-Class[/I], [I]U.S.S. Say My Name[/I], NCC-93144

 

 
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