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  1. #1

    What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Stick with me here this is a mission statement gone all wrong, but if you do read through this many of you will hopefully be saying that it was worth the ride.... I promise.

    Many hunters feel that as a class we are a few tweeks away from being the toons we all wish hunters could be. I was part of that group, you can probably still see the thread in which I proposed just that: a series of small changes and all is well. I withdraw that statement. Hunters are the most oxymoronic class in the game. We are a collection of square pegs meant for round holes, we are built to be unsuccessful from the ground up.... don't believe this, well let me share with you why this is true.

    As of now hunters are a class built for burst damage, yet we cannot shed aggro, we cannot heal ourselves quickly in any significant way, add to that to do the damage we are expeceted to do we must rob Peter (our morale) to pay Paul (our physical damage) and by doing so we get one or two shotted by boss mobs. What rocket scientist created this mess? Look at our skills: hunter's art, improved focus, needful haste, fleetness buff..... all meant to increase our dps. All of them on very short timers so that they cannot be used together easily, and all front loading damage in the first 10 - 15 seconds of a fight. Exactly what we CANNOT do because we will pull aggro from ANY tank out there. Why have the skills in place that create a 10 second damage sweet spot that can ONLY be used by preparing out of combat and not daring to use them becasue you will be yelled at, rezzed and never reinvited to the raid you just joined because you are a hunt ####..... It is not the hunter's fault... it is what we were built to do... let me say that one more time.... it was what we were built to do!

    If aggro management is not addressed then the creature the dev's have created is doomed to fail. By preforming the way it was made to function it only serves to destroy itself. Where is the logic in this? Darwin would slate this animal for extinction without a second thought. There are two choices to defeat this lemming response. The first is to create a way for hunters to shed aggro. That's it, just put in a way or two for a hunter to shift all, or some of the aggro created by those opening skills to a tank. Believe me, if we did get this the tank wouldn't ever have to worry about losing aggro on a mob. The second is to shift the skills to ones that can be applied only after 30 seconds. Let the hunter warm up, the tank bite down on the bit while the hunter unleashes hell and see if the tank can do the full 8 second ride on aggro bull. If the hunter class is indeed the top single target dps machine then it needs the skills to be just that. Putting lipstick on a pig is still kissing a pig.. saying we are capable of doing top tier damage doesn't mean we can. Not our fault we were built this way, so fix it.

    Hunters are dual wielding dice-o-matics.... we can melee better than most classes.... on paper. Our skills are not spamable, and agi is the antithesis of might (garlic to vampires) we hates it. Why build this into a class that was never meant to melee? Especially after the medium armour debacle of ROI, we lost a good chunk of survivability due to this change and the loss of our mits that were taken away when the devs replaced it with finesse pretty much caused this opportunity to be dead on arrival. Another great thought by the way finesse (I want the names of these great thinkers who bring us this useless #### every other book), but instead of working with us they point to the paper tiger of our melee skills as a benefit for a ranged class. How about allowing agi to also influence our melee skills (not on the same level as our ranged skills, but a 2 for 1 exchange would be better than I have right now, and we wouldn't be stepping on any shing shing toes either.) Right now I am sporting 87 might, how much is that helping my awesome close combat skills? How can a class be marketed as a duel wielding class, yet have armour made to purposefully negate any melee damage by giving almost zero might on armour pieces? This duality thing is really starting to show.

    This brings me to healing... what little there is for hunters is bound up and gagged by inductions or .... even better made for a reactionary melee skill that can heal just over 700 morale in 4 ticks, if you have the weapon LI fully tiered up. Remember that whole I am built to slag the target in less then 20 seconds build? Sure is nice to do to regular mobs. They never usually get within melee distance. Ohhhh but what about elite mobs? Different story, and a vastly different outcome. Hey you hear about this new area, its great filled with 70k mobs and super elite 140k mobs. Sounds fun right, hunters need not apply. LMs, Cappies, Burgs and Rks are having no problems with the 70k monsters, and Warden, Minnies (they are healers right?) along with Guards are able to take down the 140K mobs. How about those single target powerhouses the hunters... must be a cakewalk for you guys right? er.... right? Sorry no, we can burn 50k fast enough alright, but then we get hit for 3k, 2.5k, and 5k and we are sitting our medium armour rears in the rez circle of shame. Did you try your CC.... well yeah, but most times elites cannot be CCd. Well you just need to heal one or two times and dps them to oblivion. Sure we can heal 2k with a legendary slot taken up on a 4 second induction and ahh... well... we do have some nice morale pots available. What about your other healing skills... oh the 4 ticks of SOTE for 800 morale that helps when we are getting blasted for 2-5k a shot, and I discussed the whole small heal chance on a reactive melee skill for 700 morale, so no, we who should be able to do the best with a single target are shown to be the worst when it comes to the big mobs all other classes can take on without breaking too much of a sweat. How does that work into the equation of top dps class? How does this make sense?

    Somebody mentioned CC... well don't its broken and causes the hunter to drop dps to be a third rate CC artist and a fourth rate dps machine. Why choose a hunter when a burg or lm will do the job better, faster, while hitting harder and providing buffs/debuffs for the group? The hunter brings nothing to the group unless all LMs, and Burgs are sleeping or have raid locks already.

    Nice bow.. what traits do you have on it? Well I need focus crit, induction crit, focus power return, induction power return, focus shot threat reduction and indution shot threat reduction (it comes in tiers by the way, except no one knows how much a tier reduces so its hard to say if it is working much at all). Well that is all six of your slots taken up by those, what about the other traits you have. Well we don't have any more space do we, don't all other classes have to split their main forms of damage into two sperate areas, along with power and possible threat mitagation? No, hmmm .. thats funny I wonder why only hunters have this to deal with? Oh well, I have a really cool skill to tell you about. I have been a tracker for 75 levels and cannot track invisible mobs yet, mom says I am slow learner, so this skill lets me do just that. It has only been usefull in ONE small section of a endgame raid so far and the devs attached a power return to it.... they are so smart what would we ever do without them? I also have a legendary skill that hasn't been improved since they put it in at level 50 and its been nerfed twice to lower the power return we get, but who needs power right? We dps machines don't need that at all. I can make a camp fire that returns less morale and power than some basic foods meant for lowbies though. It is pretty weak and you can't even feel the warmth of the fire if you are in combat. Funny how banners, rocks and some animals can give the groups some nice returns during combat, but my roaring campfire seems to fizzle out when we could use it most.

    I could go on but my head hurts just thinking about all the contradicitions this class is based on. Blow up the class I say... just do it. It was built to self destruct anyway. The devs who created this mess knew what they were doing all along. No tweaking, no adjusting, just roll up your sleeves and tear the whole thing down. Maybe then we can create a ranged class that makes sense. A class that doesn't get in its own way. One that can include some melee to supplement the times when the bad guys make it into spitting distance. One that doesn't have all the inductions, animations, and cute dances for every skill in its arsenal.

    Put hunters out of their misery and try again. I hear we will get to fight on horses soon, so no better time than the present. It shouldn't be too hard the devs haven't touched the class in two books, so they have less to undo.

    Tydalmir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Mar 07 2012 at 11:58 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  2. #2
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Just so you know.... agility also determines our melee damage/crit since RoI was released (just like burgs) so you're asking for it to be exactly how it is now. It's actually made it so we don't lose a lot of damage by standing in melee because our melee vs ranged AA damage is quite similar. The reason our melee skill damage sucks is because our melee skills suck.

    EDIT: I agree with pretty much everything else.
    Last edited by Thraxz1982; Mar 08 2012 at 12:38 AM.

  3. #3
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Long post lol, I skimmed through it. I personally think that the two biggest issues are threat and group role. Threat is pretty obvious, we generate tons of it with no way to get rid of it, so we can't really dps to nearly our full potential except with a very small percentage of tanks or in certain situations. And as for role, I think we need a stronger one. Right now we do do good dps, but if you look at all the other classes that do "good" dps, and what they can do...then hunter starts to appear to be lacking. Champs/RKs/burgs are not that far off from us in single-target damage but have tons more that they can do...I'd gladly sacrifice 100-200 dps to be able to off-tank raids or main-heal stuff lol. So, I think that either our secondary role needs to be completely revamped so that we bring something highly viable to a group, or our dps increased so that we are the go-to dps class hands-down. Sure we have our ranged advantage, but in quite a bit of the content range is losing it's usefulness (I find myself standing in melee range extremely often nowadays due to either dist. damage, fight mechanics, or just to prevent chaos if aggro is pulled).
    Last edited by Sephollos; Mar 08 2012 at 04:43 AM.
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  4. #4

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Props to the OP for giving voice to the frustration that's been nagging me since RoI began. I just never sat down to type out all the things that hunters are lacking/need fixed/need removed. As anyone can see, the list is pretty dang long. My plea to the devs? FIX THIS. FIX ALL OF IT. They even said something like this would never happen at the beginning of RoI yet they're still sitting on their haunches while the game suffers for their laziness
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  5. #5
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    It was kind of "long in the tooth" but yes... lol, I agree... but here's my simple premise ...

    ready ....


    wait for it ....


    Turbine can't afford to fix hunters. Yup .. that's it in a nutshell. No, silly, I don't mean financially... I mean that there are so many hunters that if they fix all the things wrong with hunters we would run amok in the moors .. (oh let the Heavens open and the massive waves of QQ wash over us)....we would be killing everything in PvEland.... and then everyone and their mother-in-law would be rolling Hunters (of which I'm almost certain that the majority of players have a Hunter alt anyway)
    ..

    so.. Turbine can't afford to make us complete .. or right .. or fix the 5 ermm.. I mean 4 tick heal or the induction heal that we're dead or interrupted before it's completed.

    Thus... if you want a true Hunter .. roll a Blackarrow or .. maybe a Warden :P
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  6. #6

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Again, I find it amusing to think that any blue name gives a flying rats rear-end about the Hunter class or it's woes.
    My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit,[I] Defiant-Class[/I], [I]U.S.S. Say My Name[/I], NCC-93144

  7. #7
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Agree with OP, apart from the blowing the class up stuff heh.

    As for fixes making hunters OP in the moors. Please remember there is tech in moors that allows skills to work differently(so far DF, tracking, some items). The promise was this would allow for smooth pve/pvmp balance. Buff HS in pve, keep it the same in pvmp- That was the idea, I don't know where it has gone.
    Farewell.

  8. #8

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    I agree with you pretty much on every word you have said. The thing that ticks me off the most is that hunters cant even think about soloing any mobs above about 18k without having divine intervention. It is also most annoying that classes with light armor like minis solo bosses that on my hunter just looking at it could kill me.

    I would rather have an OP class with a change or two when you when you walking into the PvP area to make it even. If they don't do something about hunters i am probably gonna still play it but my main will probably be my super OP mini who can solo 9k elites at level 50.

    P.S. That was a very long post but it is true. Good Job.
    The end of an age has come and the wheel of time turns on. We will meet again when the wheel allows it.

  9. #9
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    From a healing perspective, I don't see much wrong with hunters. Being out of melee range is a huge advantage for a lot of ToO fights, not only because of melee AOE skills, but also because of mechanics like shadow bossfight where melee dps is penalized for any time the boss is in puddles/out of range while the black is down, and hunters are not penalized at all. Burgs right now feel very squishy as they have to be in melee range and are medium armor. As far as aggro goes, yeah there are a few fights with bosses that hit very slowly so guards dont get as many reactives, but for the most part guards can hold, maybe you need to run with better guards? Besides, other classes pull aggro just as much in these tricky fights, with oftentimes full raid wipe being the consequence. For acid zerg our guard holds most of the time (heh) over champs and hunters doing well over 2k dps.
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  10. #10
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Great post op, you hit the nail on the head on alot of points.

    What still kind of shocks me is the utter disdain the developers have for the hunter class. Its almost as if they're intentionally trying to kill the class. I don't think they realize though that there are people who love this class just like there are those that love RK's and Mini's etc. If you kill the class, those purists won't go to another class, they'll just go to another game. No, I don't mean it'll kill lotro, I just mean it'll cause WB to lose revenue which is dumb cause with a few tweaks, they can have their cake (a happier community) and eat it too (continued Hunter revenue streams).

    Hopefully with the period the Hunters are about to go through with U6, it'll maybe make Turbine finally see how little ZC cares about this facet of his job and they'll stop inflicting him on us.

  11. #11

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    frankly really 3 things would fix most if not all of the issues. One would be maybe making barbed arrow a morale leach. Second would be a shot that transfers threat. Third would be a separate formula or table for medium armour mits. It makes no sense to separate heavy armour and not all three. If its any consolation and its probably not, I think from a group perspective wardens are worse off than we are. It is also true and cc is a joke as the mobs they are needed on are the ones they don't work on.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  12. #12
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Amazing post. I read the whole thing and felt the anger and frustration you must have had when typing it. I too get pretty annoyed about being a let down. Hopefully we will be fixed. If not I just want them to put us out of our misery.

  13. #13
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    What still kind of shocks me is the utter disdain the developers have for the hunter class. Its almost as if they're intentionally trying to kill the class. I don't think they realize though that there are people who love this class just like there are those that love RK's and Mini's etc. If you kill the class, those purists won't go to another class, they'll just go to another game. No, I don't mean it'll kill lotro, I just mean it'll cause WB to lose revenue which is dumb cause with a few tweaks, they can have their cake (a happier community) and eat it too (continued Hunter revenue streams).

    Hopefully with the period the Hunters are about to go through with U6, it'll maybe make Turbine finally see how little ZC cares about this facet of his job and they'll stop inflicting him on us.
    Yup. I am one of those purists and I have gone to another game. However, I love Lotro so I keep checking back in and, if things are fixed, I will be right back, pew pewing away.

    Personally I think the only chance the Hunter class has is if we get a new dev.
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  14. #14
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    A most excellent post by the OP. It describes perfectly my experience with my own hunter. I thought the fault was with me and my ineptitude at playing the class. Some of the more difficulut solo content that I blasted through with my guardian and minstrel has proved challenging and frustrating when playing my hunter.

    I find my mind drawn to the hundreds of irate posts from the warden community regarding the problems with the warden class since RoI. The current problems with wardens seem to be widely accepted and understood by all the other classes; I don't ever hear any sympathy for the hunter in game or in the forums.

    Perhaps the hunter is considered to be a functioning class because Heart Seeker can occasionally crit a warg in the Moors for 7,000 damage?

    I feel I must defend Zombie Columbus. I am certain that Z.C. is not setting his development priorities; development priorities and directives come from upper management. And I'll bet upper management is far more likely to concentrate development resources on the premium classes -- aka the "Pay-to-Play" classes. Consider the Update 6 notes -- which classes are getting the most attention? I'm not complaining, just observing; I find it difficult to complain about improvements to the game that are likely to keep more people playing and paying, as a financially healthy Turbine benefits us all.

    Nevertheless, just as the last six months have been a less-than-satisfactory time to be a warden, it looks as if the next six months (at least) will not be kind to the hunter community.

    Again, thanks to the OP -- and +rep -- for so clearly and completely stating what is currently wrong with the hunter class.
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    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982798155/"]Palandramir[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Hunter ~[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982929667/"]Talagant[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Minstrel ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/169749/145241087982745229/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Chiton[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Guardian[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#add8e6]
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  15. #15
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Toad View Post
    A most excellent post by the OP. It describes perfectly my experience with my own hunter. I thought the fault was with me and my ineptitude at playing the class. Some of the more difficulut solo content that I blasted through with my guardian and minstrel has proved challenging and frustrating when playing my hunter.

    I find my mind drawn to the hundreds of irate posts from the warden community regarding the problems with the warden class since RoI. The current problems with wardens seem to be widely accepted and understood by all the other classes; I don't ever hear any sympathy for the hunter in game or in the forums.

    Perhaps the hunter is considered to be a functioning class because Heart Seeker can occasionally crit a warg in the Moors for 7,000 damage?

    I feel I must defend Zombie Columbus. I am certain that Z.C. is not setting his development priorities; development priorities and directives come from upper management. And I'll bet upper management is far more likely to concentrate development resources on the premium classes -- aka the "Pay-to-Play" classes. Consider the Update 6 notes -- which classes are getting the most attention? I'm not complaining, just observing; I find it difficult to complain about improvements to the game that are likely to keep more people playing and paying, as a financially healthy Turbine benefits us all.

    Nevertheless, just as the last six months have been a less-than-satisfactory time to be a warden, it looks as if the next six months (at least) will not be kind to the hunter community.

    Again, thanks to the OP -- and +rep -- for so clearly and completely stating what is currently wrong with the hunter class.
    You're more or less correct about ZC. What we see as a broken class... the rest of the game (and apparently devs) see is a class that's top tier DPS, with a functional CC line that blows through solo questing content and can crit really high once a day on a creep for QQ effect. It's clear at this point that ZC is overloaded with projects. He's got RKs, Skirmish systems, what have you and finally Hunters. Not too many other devs have that kind of load (that I know of) and I'm certain that hunters were given to him with a wink and a nod and instructions to, "Take care of them." In this case, make sure we're not completely useless and try to fix the bugs.... don't do anything else except tend to the high priority stuff. ZC's pretty much doing what he's supposed to with one very important omission which is inexcusable in my eyes. We are given zero communication. All we needed was a 'sorry hunters, nothing new for you this update' and it's be okay with me. I've never played a game with a class dev so secretive.... even about nothing. But at this point, I'll likely be hanging up my hunter by the time U6 is done rolling out. At present time I'm so frustrated with the state of hunter aggro that I'm loath to raid with him even more. That's pretty awful, considering I consider myself 'a hunter' (if you gather my meaning) and have played ONLY a hunter until just before RoI came out.

    Sadly, others don't see is that we're incapable of anything that a short massive ST dps doesn't fix, which is a whole lot TBH. Aggro isn't fixed by ST dps, nor is survivability, and to be honest, U6 moors will be even worse than it is now. **Cue 'moors hunters' that have a lower renown/kill ratio than even I do (i.e. zerg baby) telling me we're perfectly capable outside of a zerg in the moors and that we're at the best we've ever been.** Meanwhile other classes get more functional legendary legacies, more tools in general, and we get two new skills that were so halfbaked due to (unrealistic) time constraints at RoI launch that they had to be nerfed to the point of uselessness in order to ensure they didn't accidentally make us OP.

    I don't have a lot of hope or patience left with the class and would like to see something... anything... that points to a future in which hunters have their most basic concerns dealt with.

  16. #16
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    My hunter does OK with DPS. He also does OK in the surviving department.

    Maybe if you concentrated less on BIG DAMAGE ALL AT ONCE OMG! and a little more on sustained damage, true DPS-style, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    Maybe if you read ALL of your trait sets and LI build possibilities, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    Maybe if you didn't make one-dimensional characters, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    The problem is NOT the way the class works. The problem is the way people build their characters. Yes, you can make a total glass cannon with no morale, no real way to mitigate threat, and no way to deal with a mob in your face. Yes, you can ignore half of your skills because they're not BOOM BOOM OMG LOOK AT THE PRETTY YELLOW NUMBERS sorts of skills.

    Just don't whine about the consequences.

    Build a balanced character.

  17. #17
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    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmanda View Post
    My hunter does OK with DPS. He also does OK in the surviving department.

    Maybe if you concentrated less on BIG DAMAGE ALL AT ONCE OMG! and a little more on sustained damage, true DPS-style, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    Maybe if you read ALL of your trait sets and LI build possibilities, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    Maybe if you didn't make one-dimensional characters, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    The problem is NOT the way the class works. The problem is the way people build their characters. Yes, you can make a total glass cannon with no morale, no real way to mitigate threat, and no way to deal with a mob in your face. Yes, you can ignore half of your skills because they're not BOOM BOOM OMG LOOK AT THE PRETTY YELLOW NUMBERS sorts of skills.

    Just don't whine about the consequences.

    Build a balanced character.
    It seems to me that the posts in this thread do not warrant your comments. The OP clearly detailed that nearly *all* approaches to hunter builds result in the same core issues. In brief, those are lack of self-heals, far too many high-induction skills, poor self-defense skills, low inherent damage mitigation, virtually no ability to shed threat, and lack of any truly useful or valued role in groups other than as a single-target nuker.

    I have read little whining; I have read reasoned and thoughtful analyses of what is currently making the hunter class difficult and frustrating to play in the more challenging content.

    For my part, I prefer to play and almost always spec for a CC build. I very much enjoy the flexibility it provides in most soloing content. I trait as best I can for mitigation, armour, and resistances. My hunter virtues are generally the same as I choose for my guardian. I don't stack agility. I have never traited deep into the red line (I usually run solo with five yellow, two red or blue), unless instructed to do so by my raid leader. For some of the more difficult solo content, I have tried every reasonable combination of virtues and class traits I can imagine.

    Based upon the comments of other posters in this thread, I suspect most of us have tried a number of different approaches to the class.

    Your insinuation that it is merely hunter builds that are at fault is unjustified.
    Last edited by Dark_Toad; Mar 09 2012 at 01:03 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0220400000001854b/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [FONT=times new roman][COLOR=#FFFFE0]Known alts on Meneldor:[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982798155/"]Palandramir[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Hunter ~[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982929667/"]Talagant[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Minstrel ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/169749/145241087982745229/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Chiton[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Guardian[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#add8e6]
    [/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982729798/"][COLOR=#daa520]Filbert[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6]: 75 Minstrel[/COLOR] [COLOR=#add8e6]~[/COLOR][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087982808928/"] Dakkri[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 71 Guardian ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/304336/145241087983296677/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Stammel[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 75 Captain
    [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983521225/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Elaichi[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 65 Loremaster ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983541171/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Tribble[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 66 Warden ~ [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://my.lotro.com/home/character/959916/145241087983630184/"][COLOR=#daa520][FONT=verdana]Caper[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#ADD8E6][FONT=verdana]: 64 Burglar [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [COLOR=#d3d3d3][SIZE=1]Gigabyte X58A-UD5 | Intel Core i7-950 | 12 GB Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600MHz | Gigabyte GTX 670 |[/SIZE]
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  18. #18

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Right. So build a hunter with higher mitigations and morale, but lose 1/3 of your dps. Let the burgs/champs/rks easily surpass you as a dps class and you will truly achieve what you were made to do as a class. Mhm, I feel a change of heart.
    Edited to add this in: I took a quick peek at your character page and couldn't help but notice you are wearing a 122 might earring, a 122 might helm, and a 92 might bracelet. I now think I see your perspective. Let me just say this: ever since RoI you are gimping your hunter if you wear might gear. It does not affect your melee dps, all it does is give minimal physical mit (largely unuseful, tact mit has gained more notice in end game raids). You claim you have a balanced toon, yet I can hit 7k mitigations and still maintain more than your 1k agil. Now, why am I being so blunt? Because, quite frankly, it angers me when people claim hunters are ok if you balance, when those same people don't understand the true capabilities of any class, ignoring hunters for now, after RoI removed the stat cap. You might think your hunter is ok, but the truth is, your toon is probably, at best, half the potential of any moors-geared hunter, which would be the closest thing to the "perfect balanced hunter". And let me tell you, compared to other classes that are closing the dps gap, our "balance" makes us laughable.
    You might think you have a pretty decent toon, but you are only hurting it even further if you don't realize with itemization as it is currently, we HAVE NO CHOICE other than stacking agil, in order to compete with other classes and maintain our rapidly deteriorating position as the joke of a king of dps
    Last edited by Bond007; Mar 09 2012 at 01:15 AM.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  19. #19

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    the reality is that you can build your char for balance. Much of the issue is in reality what I call a cascade effect. Changes made to one section of code or data impact another. For example remove stat caps and then create gear that maximizes main stat (Agility). This allows people to build their char for max damage possible. Well, the cascade is that now balance cannot compete with those who build for max dps. Gear really at the moment doesn't even support it. There isn't a decent piece of armour that has good agi and has might or will. So adding might requires a major sacrifice in DPS. I have in my current build about 1300 agi and just my native might. I can do about 1.1k dps for as long as my focus and power lasts and I have 4.1k mits for some survivability. That is a joke compared to what a champ can do and survive as well. Truth is if you want to compete with champs whose main stat is might and by nature gives them 1:1 more mitigations let alone what heavy armour gives them, we have to be that glass cannon and ride the line between enough mits to get by and enough damage to be useful. If all you do is solo that is fine, but if you want to be useful to a group you need to be competitive DPS and that is glass cannon or a near proximity. Basically, no one considered or probably even took the time to run high end raids/instances and analyze the class balance in that environment with all the ROI stat changes. So that is where we are, the unwitting victim of untested class balance and hopefully next time the pendulum might swing the other way and we become OP for a while(I hope). As a note if we do please no one brag or even mention that I downed a 100k nemesis or did an all hunter saruman. Let them make us OP and keep it a secret lest the nerf hammer come down really hard on us.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  20. #20

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcmanda View Post
    My hunter does OK with DPS. He also does OK in the surviving department.

    Maybe if you concentrated less on BIG DAMAGE ALL AT ONCE OMG! and a little more on sustained damage, true DPS-style, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    Maybe if you read ALL of your trait sets and LI build possibilities, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    Maybe if you didn't make one-dimensional characters, you wouldn't have so much trouble.

    The problem is NOT the way the class works. The problem is the way people build their characters. Yes, you can make a total glass cannon with no morale, no real way to mitigate threat, and no way to deal with a mob in your face. Yes, you can ignore half of your skills because they're not BOOM BOOM OMG LOOK AT THE PRETTY YELLOW NUMBERS sorts of skills.

    Just don't whine about the consequences.

    Build a balanced character.
    To maximize your hunter's effectiveness you are gives 4 short duration skills that add a hefty amount of damage to your initial burst of dps. Two use focus and one is your focus builder, which cannot be used once the first attack is taken. So the skills given to the hunter by the devs to make the most of your dps are front loaded skills. This means you have a 10 - 15 second sweet spot when they are all running... wait longer than that and the skills run out, and some cannot be reacivated until you are out of combat. My point is we are built by the devs for all out "BOOM BOOM" as you call it in the first moments of the fight. Yet you will completely screw the tank because there is no way for them to hold the aggro if a hunter acts as his or her skills demand. Without an aggro dump we cannot maximize the skills we are given, because we will own aggro and be dead due to the lack of armour, mits and low morale builds that we must carry to raid. The current situation is counterproductive in that to make the best use of our skills we need to jump on the gas at the start of every fight. That is when a hunter will do its best dps, yet by doing so we negate our usefullness to the raid by sucking up massive heals, a incombat rez or giving the tank a stroke. This is how the hunter was built... the skills make no sense in that they are on such short timers, use focus and cannot be easily activated so that they are all up at once. IF a hunter is good enough to do this they will put out some outrageous numbers by using the skills we are expected to use by the devs. The big problem is there isn't ANY way not cause problems for the raid because of how hunters lack the skills needed to survive that window of top damage on their own. This is a flaw in the toon, not the players.

    I discussed several other major flaws that work against each other in the post. Like I said we are square peg toons being asked to do round hole jobs. This is a broken aspect of the character we play. We live with it and work around it by throttling back our aggro, choosing stances that limit our dps, or must dance on the knife edge of threat to attain the dps numbers we need to show to be a useful part of a raid. NO OTHER CLASS needs to do the balancing act we have to. We are supposed to be TOP TIER SINGLE TARGET dps kings, yet all other classes can solo elite and some master elite mobs while we cannot due to the poorly designed character you play now. Expain how I can be top anything if I am preforming at the bottom of the pile when it comes to high morale, hard hitting mobs?

    I have tried yellow line, have a second age yellow line bow, and the problem still remains most elite mobs are CC immune to the skills a yellow line hunter brings to the table. If you find a mob like this that you can CC, you sweat it out because you have already lowered your dps and can only take two or three hits before you are almost dead.... or one if it crits at the wrong time. This also brings into play our lack of reliable healing skills. If you cannot at least heal 2k -3K every minute or so there is no way to take down a 140k mob, yet that is the mountain we are given to climb.

    The hunter class makes no sense when you look at what it is designed to do, and then look at what skills are given to see that job finished. Glass cannons they call us, well we can only work with what we are given, and we haven't been given anything for two books now. We are given useless PVP armour with bonuses that would make you laugh if you weren't already sobbing. How can any dev go 0 for 6 on the bonuses on three seperate armour sets? What does that tell you as a hunter. No one thinks things out, or sees the inconsistancies inherent in the class. They keep making things worse because not one dev knows how a hunter should function properly are burst dps, a long term steady fire machine gun or god forbid a formidible CC class that can also put up good dps numbers along with being able to function almost as well as a LM or burg.

    The hunter needs to be looked at from the ground up and the changes made must make sense instead of counteracting the role we are expected to fulfill. Fix the mitagations and make medium armour mean something again. Stop forcing us to find work arounds to make a borked character look acutally playable.

    Tydalmir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Mar 08 2012 at 11:00 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    New Hampshuh
    Posts
    1,215

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    ^ +rep (wish i could give you more but the system won't let me)

    well written, articulate and spot-on!
    [B]Numenorean Guard, Landroval[/B]
    [B][COLOR=ORANGE]Nuthor-R9 Hunter, Nuthric-R7 Champion, Nuthoranna-R6 Burglar, Nuthro-R0 Guardian, Gotku-R9 Warg[/B][/COLOR]

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Not on the roadmap!
    Posts
    607

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Yep, great posts OP. Particularly I find annoying the only real bonus we got from RoI is the focus buff, which is 100% useless in a raid boss fight and barely in grouping at all. I dunno, I said elsewhere, it's ridiculous really, the hunter with RoI was possibly the most slack job I've ever seen on a class development, the 2 'new skills' borderline pointless if not fully pointless. 2 updates later and no word. It's pathetic, ZC should be scared to poke his head in here.

    My working theory is ZC was turned down for a raise he thought he deserved so he is hitting the overlords where it hurts by making us (hunter most populous class) ticked off, I'm actually gonna help him out, no way this game gets another dollar of mine without hunters getting a serious look, and by that I want a new Dev. I'm lucky I can buy my new wallet without spending a buck.

    Unfortunately there are probably so many hunters thrilled with themselves that it won't matter.
    Q. What state do you live in?
    A. Denial

  23. #23

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuth_KM View Post
    ^ +rep (wish i could give you more but the system won't let me)

    well written, articulate and spot-on!
    Also agree

    I find it hard for any hunter not to agree with the OP.. the class is borked as he says...

    jcmanda just doesnt get it... but maybe just being OK is fine with him..

    I find it funny that a dps class has to make so many sacrifices to do dps that most other classes can do now...
    work in progress...

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c21400000004848d/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  24. #24

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    First off I am a Guard and have a Hunter as an alt. I will hapily say I have hated you Hunters from the time I started playing. I hated hearing about hunter groups downing the Watcher, I hated Moria when hunters with 1st age weapons pulled mobs from me with auto attacks. I hated the tells in Unite bragging about 15k+ crits when I had never seen the day I could crit over 1k. But now......
    Hunters are now looking at becomming a second rate class. The class is designed to be single target dps with trait lines that give you very limited secondary roles. I see your problem and feel your pain. So many of you here dont see what is comming. If you are not the undisputed rulers of single target dps you will be a second choice to a class that provides nearly the same dps but provides more to the group in buffs, heals or cc.
    Something similar happened to guards in Moria. The instances for the most part were designed as dps races. Champs were not as good at tanking as Guards, but their dps was so much better than ours most groups that knew the content preferred Champ tanks. They were "good enough" at tanking but provided dps no tank ever could.
    Here is the problem you are facing in a nutshell: You must either be the undisputed kings of single target dps or you must be given options to provide your group with something they need in some other area.
    I will say it again
    Either you must be the undisputed Kings of single target dps, or you must be given a viable secondary role to play in a group.

    I still hate you all, but you deserve better treatment.


    Djasi

  25. #25

    Re: What is wrong with the hunter?... Why, everything and here is why!

    Quote Originally Posted by Djasi View Post
    First off I am a Guard and have a Hunter as an alt. I will hapily say I have hated you Hunters from the time I started playing. I hated hearing about hunter groups downing the Watcher, I hated Moria when hunters with 1st age weapons pulled mobs from me with auto attacks. I hated the tells in Unite bragging about 15k+ crits when I had never seen the day I could crit over 1k. But now......
    Hunters are now looking at becomming a second rate class. The class is designed to be single target dps with trait lines that give you very limited secondary roles. I see your problem and feel your pain. So many of you here dont see what is comming. If you are not the undisputed rulers of single target dps you will be a second choice to a class that provides nearly the same dps but provides more to the group in buffs, heals or cc.
    Something similar happened to guards in Moria. The instances for the most part were designed as dps races. Champs were not as good at tanking as Guards, but their dps was so much better than ours most groups that knew the content preferred Champ tanks. They were "good enough" at tanking but provided dps no tank ever could.
    Here is the problem you are facing in a nutshell: You must either be the undisputed kings of single target dps or you must be given options to provide your group with something they need in some other area.
    I will say it again
    Either you must be the undisputed Kings of single target dps, or you must be given a viable secondary role to play in a group.

    I still hate you all, but you deserve better treatment.


    Djasi
    As a tank, i think im obligated to +rep this!
    part in red made me smile. Because i agree
    Edit: guess ive given out too much rep in the past 24 hours. Ill try to remember to spread the rep later
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000003bfae5/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

 

 
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