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  1. #1

    Lore-masters & Audacity

    Hey,

    After playing on bullroarer I noticed something rather critical, audacity. Rank 1 gives a 25% reduction in CC duration, rank 7 gives a 50% reduction in CC. Rank 7 audacity will cost 7x 6.000 commendations, a big ammount, but most creeps will have this over time.

    This means that CC will be even less useless, creeps can pot the first stun and after that DR + audacity will make our stuns so short that we can't even gain distance or pop a long induction nuke (ents into lightning storm).

    I'd like to know what other, more experienced LMs think about this.
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  2. #2

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by CuruornEU View Post
    ...most creeps will have this over time...
    So will most freeps..


    I don't see the problem.
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  3. #3

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Spordo View Post
    So will most freeps..


    I don't see the problem.
    Creep CC is less potent then freep CC.
    I've got a R10 reaver and currently leveling this LM for pvp so I'm well aware of the state of PvP, reason for audacity, etc.

    This thread is in the LM section because I would like some opinions of LMs on the impact of this.
    [color=mediumblue]Curuorn, Guardian - Barcode, Warden, leader of Rebirth -[/color][color=Maroon] Dodar, Reaver - Curuornn, Warleader[/color]
    [color=forestgreen]One of the founders of KhaosRogues (R.I.P. Muz, Goor, Lasto), son of Vandalf.[/color]
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  4. #4
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Yes it is indeed a bit of concern for cc based classes like us.....I mean ok we have burst damage enough to get by, but the way in which our class is actually supposed to fight and win a battle is by effectively using cc.....diminishing returns was fair enough because with the amount of cc abilities we do have, it gave a fair chance to the creep to not be cc-locked.....

    But with audacity, we will need to be extra careful with cc.....its just like diminishing returns got twice as strict.....but my primary concern is now having to keep check what rank creep I am fighting.....different creeps will have different levels of audacity and hence determining exactly how much time the our cc is gonna last and when we should be ready to renew it and/or go for the next is going to be chaotic.....Right now I can effectively time the cracked earth root to apply right after a stun/daze runs out.....not anymore.....it'll be shooting in the dark.....
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  5. #5

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    So what you're saying is basically that because creep CC is less potent it won't matter equally to them?

    Crowd control in the moors is basically the biggest issue after the extreme amount of damage you can (and some do) dish out. I still don't see an issue except you disliking the lessened effectiveness of CC. It will affect both sides equally.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Spordo View Post
    So what you're saying is basically that because creep CC is less potent it won't matter equally to them?

    Crowd control in the moors is basically the biggest issue after the extreme amount of damage you can (and some do) dish out. I still don't see an issue except you disliking the lessened effectiveness of CC. It will affect both sides equally.
    What was meant with the statement about creep cc being less potent is that since creep cc is less effective, many creeps do not choose to let it be the main factor on which their fights depend.....even for classes like wargs or spiders, after the initial pounce or root, most of the fight is dependent on other factors and not cc.....and spiders, the main cc class of the creep side is getting tools to counter their lack of cc with the pip system and their damage now working in tandem with their cc....

    On the other hand, for a loremaster, cc is pretty much the "way of the battle"....99 percent of our victories depend upon effective use of cc....and our playstyle is heavily dependent upon the use of cc.....without it, we're just a lesser version of RKs who can sustain dps far better than us and on the move....
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  7. #7

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by silverblade5445 View Post
    What was meant with the statement about creep cc being less potent is that since creep cc is less effective, many creeps do not choose to let it be the main factor on which their fights depend.....even for classes like wargs or spiders, after the initial pounce or root, most of the fight is dependent on other factors and not cc.....and spiders, the main cc class of the creep side is getting tools to counter their lack of cc with the pip system and their damage now working in tandem with their cc....

    On the other hand, for a loremaster, cc is pretty much the "way of the battle"....99 percent of our victories depend upon effective use of cc....and our playstyle is heavily dependent upon the use of cc.....without it, we're just a lesser version of RKs who can sustain dps far better than us and on the move....
    I'm sorry but I disagree. I've played my spider a lot lately and it's mostly about CC since I don't do ####-all for damage to be honest. Sure I can drain power and DoT as well but hey, besides my CC it's pretty pointless.

    I really don't see how Audacity will impact LMs more than anyone else.
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  8. #8

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by silverblade5445 View Post
    What was meant with the statement about creep cc being less potent is that since creep cc is less effective, many creeps do not choose to let it be the main factor on which their fights depend.....even for classes like wargs or spiders, after the initial pounce or root, most of the fight is dependent on other factors and not cc.....and spiders, the main cc class of the creep side is getting tools to counter their lack of cc with the pip system and their damage now working in tandem with their cc....

    On the other hand, for a loremaster, cc is pretty much the "way of the battle"....99 percent of our victories depend upon effective use of cc....and our playstyle is heavily dependent upon the use of cc.....without it, we're just a lesser version of RKs who can sustain dps far better than us and on the move....
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spordo View Post
    I'm sorry but I disagree. I've played my spider a lot lately and it's mostly about CC since I don't do ####-all for damage to be honest. Sure I can drain power and DoT as well but hey, besides my CC it's pretty pointless.

    I really don't see how Audacity will impact LMs more than anyone else.
    Audacity impacts all of us in the same way, however a LM uses CC to fight.

    We are the only class with long inductions as our main skills and no effective way of making them immune to setback (parables and cctv are minor compared to needfull haste). We combo our CC with our big nukes, we stun with ents so that we get lightning storm off without watching the bar get set back for 15 seconds.

    With audacity, we will no longer be able to stun long enough with ents for us to pop LS, making the Ents into LS combo useless and removing a huge part of our bursting power.

    There are many more combinations of our skills which will now be less effective.

    Lm is the class that relies most on CC in this game, spider is relies on it the most from all creep classes. Now spiders are getting changes to turn them more into a RKish char, promoting kiting and higher damage output.

    LM however, is not getting changed, we still rely heavily on CC to get our inductions off and will continue to do so after U6, despite the fact that CC will be much shorter.

    If you want to QQ about spiders CC being poor, please open your own thread, lets stay on topic here.
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  9. #9

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Lore masters are far from overpowered in the moors and being the class that most relies on crowd control naturally audacity will proportionately nerf lms more than other classes. We will benefit from increased damage resistance from audacity but sign of power righteousness makes cc reduction component largely useless. So not benefiting from audacity crowd control used against us in addition to a central component of many of our skills being reduced in effectiveness. I think a strong case exists for removing and lowering inductions on skills.

    Off the top of my head lm skills with cc component cracked earth, herb lore, blinding flash, light of the rising dawn, staff strike, test of will, ents, storm lore and bear hug. Weavers have a few skills with a crowd control component but they are a kiting based class whereas lms have inductions.
    Last edited by Idiotvillage; Mar 04 2012 at 10:11 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by CuruornEU View Post
    LM however, is not getting changed, we still rely heavily on CC to get our inductions off and will continue to do so after U6, despite the fact that CC will be much shorter.
    This is the main point, and it will have biggest effect in 1on1s and in small fights. In raids/zerging there won't be much change, as you got other support there.
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  11. #11

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by CuruornEU View Post
    If you want to QQ about spiders CC being poor, please open your own thread, lets stay on topic here.
    I'm sorry, what?


    I am staying on topic, if anything. I wasn't crying about spiders any more than the OP were crying about LMs. But sure, I'll leave you guys patting eachothers backs crying about it. I really don't care much about it. There will always be people crying outrage about pretty much any changes so I'll leave you to it.
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  12. #12

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Spordo View Post
    I'm sorry, what?


    I am staying on topic, if anything. I wasn't crying about spiders any more than the OP were crying about LMs. But sure, I'll leave you guys patting eachothers backs crying about it. I really don't care much about it. There will always be people crying outrage about pretty much any changes so I'll leave you to it.
    Thank you.
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  13. #13

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Spordo View Post
    I really don't see how Audacity will impact LMs more than anyone else.
    As previously stated, LM's rely more heavily on their CC than any other class in the moors to get their inductions off and do damage.

    If you can name one class that has longer inductions than LM's with the same number of induction-based damage skills, I would be pleased to learn about this new class, creep or freep.

    Spordo, this really says it all: PvMP (Creep): 5 PvMP (Freep):1
    Biased at all?
    PvMP (Freep)
    PvMP (Creep)


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    As for the addition of audacity, it will change PvMP, that is for sure. I will reserve my full opinion until I can experience it.
    Last edited by Thorvaldheimdal; Mar 04 2012 at 07:05 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    This will simple ruin the LM class..
    Give LMs a passive that ignores this CC audacity things or remodel the class to be a glass cannon...
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  15. #15
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    I don't think it'll be too much of an issue to be honest. If you're talking group on group, it won't change anything. If you're talking about 1v1s, it'll most strongly impact the beginning of the fights. By the third CC in, diminishing returns are kicking in too hard to really allow you to do much with 'em other than interfere with the creep's effectiveness in attacking, so Audacity isn't going to change those very much. What it'll really come down to is how much Audacity will affect those first few CC moves, and whether they'll still be out long enough to use your bigger skills.

    I'll leave it until U6 actually comes out to make a final call, but I honestly don't see it affecting LMs as badly as you all seem to think it will.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Played on bullroarer and LMs are definitely going to need some help with 1v1/small group... IMO make it so that LMs are the only class that cc is not affected by from audacity.
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  17. #17

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal View Post
    As previously stated, LM's rely more heavily on their CC than any other class in the moors to get their inductions off and do damage.

    If you can name one class that has longer inductions than LM's with the same number of induction-based damage skills, I would be pleased to learn about this new class, creep or freep.

    Spordo, this really says it all: PvMP (Creep): 5 PvMP (Freep):1
    Biased at all?

    http://my.lotro.com/user-1346130/

    As for the addition of audacity, it will change PvMP, that is for sure. I will reserve my full opinion until I can experience it.
    I'm sorry, are you gauging my opinion based on some random numbers I entered at some (to even myself) unknown point in time and has never since even glanced at? In that case, I revised those numbers now to more reflect my current play-style (yeah, fishing is all I do nowadays, Audacity will have great impact on fishing).
    To be honest, I rarely use anything on this website except for the forums and the dev-diaries. Mostly due to counter-intuitive design, a lot of outdated information and unreliable functionality in some parts. That's another story entirely though.

    Well, if we're talking inductions, take a look at Defilers for example (just to take another class which relies heavily on not being interrupted during inductions). All their main skills attack-skills, heals or otherwise anything important, has drastic induction times, pretty much on level with LMs. Defilers don't have the luxury of rooting, slowing and stunning their targets on more than what one or two skills (can't remember from the top of my head), at least one of those skills is a melee skill at that making it even less useful compared to having the same ability 30m away.

    Looking to Weavers; Yes, Weaver-debuffs have low induction times but then, they have no nuke-skills what so ever to rely on, only DoTs. Surely that makes them vastly inferior as a CC-class Audacity or no Audacity. DR applies to them just s equally as it does to a LM debuff. Sure thing Weavers will get an update in U6 but nowhere do I read about any real possibility to CC a target and then nuke him away from a safe distance.

    It really doesn't matter how you twist and turn the facts, the CC-effects Audacity will have will hit all CC's equally. It's just a matter of different play-styles for different classes. Whether creep or Freep doesn't really have a lot of impact on that argument.

    What you guys seem to be asking for is rapid cast CC-skills which will then entrap the target for the full (or at least close to) duration of the induction for a nuke-skill straight up without any real risk.

    The Moors has never been about 1v1 seeing as it's an open-pvp-area. Some classes will always be at a disadvantage in 1v1.
    Last edited by Spordo; Mar 04 2012 at 11:14 PM.
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  18. #18

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Frankly you're wrong. Weavers and defilers will benefit from increased crowd control protection with audacity. Sign of power righteousness makes the cc reduction aspect of audacity of very little use to lms. Many weavers skills are being made instant cast on the move. With the update defilers will probably be the weakest creep class, you are setting the bar very low in comparing lms to defilers. Also they can kite with hots on themselves. Lore masters have two melee attacks that can be used on the move and sign of power wizardy. There are 9 lm skills that have a cc component.
    Last edited by Idiotvillage; Mar 05 2012 at 02:18 AM.

  19. #19

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Spordo View Post
    ...take a look at Defilers for example... All their main skills attack-skills, heals or otherwise anything important, has drastic induction times, pretty much on level with LMs. Defilers don't have the luxury of rooting, slowing and stunning their targets on more than what one or two skills (can't remember from the top of my head), at least one of those skills is a melee skill at that making it even less useful compared to having the same ability 30m away.

    It really doesn't matter how you twist and turn the facts, the CC-effects Audacity will have will hit all CC's equally. It's just a matter of different play-styles for different classes. Whether creep or Freep doesn't really have a lot of impact on that argument.
    Check your facts. Foolish post is foolish.

    Defilers do not have the same skills as LM's of course they don't, they are Defilers. Fears, slows, DOTS, HOTS all parts of a defilers arsenal that require no induction.

    Have you even played a LM? Probably not and that is the point. If you don't know the class, don't jump into the "LM" forum and post a bunch of trash.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by babaju2 View Post
    Played on bullroarer and LMs are definitely going to need some help with 1v1/small group... IMO make it so that LMs are the only class that cc is not affected by from audacity.
    Hmm this is more reliable data indeed since its tested on BR.....Although it wouldnt be fair to completely keep LMs cc being affected by audacity, but a change to counter the negative effects would be needed....

    As it is, as someone mentioned, with DR, the fight is mostly a dps race after the first couple cc applications....now it'll be a dps race almost from the beginning.....infact I think we should get an additional effect to our cc like the spiders are getting.....if one of our DoTs/cc/debuff is potted and/or cured, it applied a immediate burst damage of appropriate value. That would discourage creeps from potting/curing out cc/debuffs and would empower us a bit more in 1v1/small group fights....

    Its still in testing phase so we cant say anything for sure.....might have to try new ways to tackle this, but it seems like something that will definitely be affecting cc-dependent classes in general, by how much, we are yet to see.....
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  21. #21
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    In my opinion Audacity is going to be a huge problem for Lore-masters in PvMP. Before getting into why I think that is the case let me first make a very important point for those of you reading this thread who don't play a Lore-master as I see some confusion so far.

    Everyone's playstyle is different of course, but I believe the following holds true in the general sense. Lore-masters in the Ettens are reliant on their CC abilities not so much to lock down a creep, but rather to actually use their attack skills. Almost every attack skill we have has an induction, and certainly our most potent attacks all have inductions. Creeps can interrupt inductions of course, but even ignoring that constantly being hit means inductions are constantly knocked back, which means we find it incredibly difficult to actually use any of our attacks when that is happening. Thus we rely on our CC abilities to stop a creep for a couple of seconds and be able to get off an attack.

    With that in mind it then becomes clear that with Audacity and Diminishing Returns the Lore-master's CC options will very rapidly become completely useless against a target as after a few uses the CC effects will effectively not be registering because their duration will have been reduced so heavily by a combination of those two mechanics.

    I see people talking about the potency of CC on each side, that is very much a side issue here. The main issue affecting LMs with Audacity isn't in keeping a target permanently under control, it's about actually being able to function. That's the key point. We're not using CC so much to keep someone out of a fight as we are using it to buy ourselves time to actually do anything at all.

    There are few, if any, other classes in the game that rely on CC like this in the Ettens. The LM simply doesn't have the options available to fight without using some form of CC. Without being to buy yourself a second or two here and there to get an induction off you are pretty much resigned to using the two staff skills, the weak Wizard's Fire DoT and Storm-lore.

    For those saying that there is too much CC in the Ettens I don't disagree with you on that. I do think there is too much of it in the sense that players can find themselves stunned, mezzed, rooted, feared, etc in succession and effectively barred from doing much in a fight for long periods of time. It will be good to see less of that annoying CC taking place.

    However, for LMs CC isn't about trying to keep someone out of a fight. If CC is being relegated to a bit player in the Ettens with Audacity then I really do think there needs to be a change made to the Lore-master class to compensate for that. We rely on CC so heavily that reducing its effectiveness will seriously diminish our ability to function properly.

    Should that mean our CC becomes super-potent to counter Audacity? I don't believe so. I like the idea of moving away from long duration CC, but in so doing the LM will probably need more options for induction setback immunity or perhaps even more attack options that don't have inductions.

  22. #22
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by silverblade5445 View Post
    Hmm this is more reliable data indeed since its tested on BR.....Although it wouldnt be fair to completely keep LMs cc being affected by audacity, but a change to counter the negative effects would be needed....

    As it is, as someone mentioned, with DR, the fight is mostly a dps race after the first couple cc applications....now it'll be a dps race almost from the beginning.....infact I think we should get an additional effect to our cc like the spiders are getting.....if one of our DoTs/cc/debuff is potted and/or cured, it applied a immediate burst damage of appropriate value. That would discourage creeps from potting/curing out cc/debuffs and would empower us a bit more in 1v1/small group fights....

    Its still in testing phase so we cant say anything for sure.....might have to try new ways to tackle this, but it seems like something that will definitely be affecting cc-dependent classes in general, by how much, we are yet to see.....
    1v1 on BR it is impossible to kill a ranked wl or defiler as a LM. You just can't out dps their healing. This combined with not being able to cc them to stop them from healing or interrupting your own inductions just makes it impossible to solo a defiler or wl. A LM slotted all MoNF hit my wl for 300 burning embers. I'm sure he had the best gear he could get because you can get a perfect 75 first age and all of your pvp gear and virtues in 30 minutes.

    Wargs are just ridiculous vs LMs (1v1 1v1 1v1 1v1 1v1) on bullroarer. Claws in flayer stance applies a 100% chance unpottable debuff that will auto interrupt your inductions every 4s for 16s. As if what they have on live isn't enough... They also have 3 disarms/silences (one is crit only), a 25% snare, a new flayer stance only debuff that replaces throat rip- 50% snare and +33% attack duration that stacks with flea bitten and savage fangs, making it up to +68% attack duration, and 2 or 3 interrupts. All this stuff while having 55-60% mitigations (this includes tactical) in flayer stance. And not to mention if you don't do 300 damage in 7 seconds, they will restore 5% of their morale. It's not hard to not be able to do 300 damage in 7 seconds when EVERY single induction you try to get off is interrupted. When you do break their 300 damage bubble, they restore 1% morale. So if you aren't smashing your dps keys and somehow getting off inductions without ever getting interrupted, you stand no chance.

    Also i'm gonna add that minstrels are still godmode in 1v1 and small group but because dps was lowered, you have a better chance at being able to run away from them at least. If you don't run though, you're in for a death no matter what creep class you are playing. Honestly though, I like the pace of combat being lowered... they just need to do something about the classes that are getting horribly nerfed by this update. RvR will be fine, but I have a really bad feeling about small group and even more about 1v1.

    One last thing, this buff completely favours creeps and healers. Healers because healing is not getting reduced at all, but damage is. So heals>dps much more easily now. Pretty much the only way you're gonna get kills on either side is to nuke the ungrouped people. Now how it favours creeps- Think about it, who will -30% incoming damage benefit more? The freeps that were already being hit for only 200 150 150 with ravage? Or the creeps that are being ISBed for 1.8k 1.8k 1.5k? Or how about how much cc freeps have, and then looking at how much creeps have? Wls: None, Reavers: None, Bas: A little, Defilers: Like.. 1 and 1/4 skills, Wargs/Weavers: Decent Amount but these classes are getting massive fixes to make them the best two creep classes for now. This really is a hidden creep buff. Yes, the moors did need something like this, and creeps are underpowered and need some love. But this brings up so many other problems now. It's like every update they take a step forward, but two steps backwards. Now freeps can't gear for different playstyles, they must wear the new pvp gear and have no choice to wear anything else or they will lose their -30% incoming damage. Creeps get audacity as a passive ability, without sacrificing anything at all.
    Last edited by babaju2; Mar 05 2012 at 06:31 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by babaju2 View Post
    1v1 on BR it is impossible to kill a ranked wl or defiler as a LM. You just can't out dps their healing. This combined with not being able to cc them to stop them from healing or interrupting your own inductions just makes it impossible to solo a defiler or wl. A LM slotted all MoNF hit my wl for 300 burning embers. I'm sure he had the best gear he could get because you can get a perfect 75 first age and all of your pvp gear and virtues in 30 minutes.

    Wargs are just ridiculous vs LMs (1v1 1v1 1v1 1v1 1v1) on bullroarer. Claws in flayer stance applies a 100% chance unpottable debuff that will auto interrupt your inductions every 4s for 16s. As if what they have on live isn't enough... They also have 3 disarms/silences (one is crit only), a 25% snare, a new flayer stance only debuff that replaces throat rip- 50% snare and +33% attack duration that stacks with flea bitten and savage fangs, making it up to +68% attack duration, and 2 or 3 interrupts. All this stuff while having 55-60% mitigations (this includes tactical) in flayer stance. And not to mention if you don't do 300 damage in 7 seconds, they will restore 5% of their morale. It's not hard to not be able to do 300 damage in 7 seconds when EVERY single induction you try to get off is interrupted. When you do break their 300 damage bubble, they restore 1% morale. So if you aren't smashing your dps keys and somehow getting off inductions without ever getting interrupted, you stand no chance.

    Also i'm gonna add that minstrels are still godmode in 1v1 and small group but because dps was lowered, you have a better chance at being able to run away from them at least. If you don't run though, you're in for a death no matter what creep class you are playing. Honestly though, I like the pace of combat being lowered... they just need to do something about the classes that are getting horribly nerfed by this update. RvR will be fine, but I have a really bad feeling about small group and even more about 1v1.

    One last thing, this buff completely favours creeps and healers. Healers because healing is not getting reduced at all, but damage is. So heals>dps much more easily now. Pretty much the only way you're gonna get kills on either side is to nuke the ungrouped people. Now how it favours creeps- Think about it, who will -30% incoming damage benefit more? The freeps that were already being hit for only 200 150 150 with ravage? Or the creeps that are being ISBed for 1.8k 1.8k 1.5k? Or how about how much cc freeps have, and then looking at how much creeps have? Wls: None, Reavers: None, Bas: A little, Defilers: Like.. 1 and 1/4 skills, Wargs/Weavers: Decent Amount but these classes are getting massive fixes to make them the best two creep classes for now. This really is a hidden creep buff. Yes, the moors did need something like this, and creeps are underpowered and need some love. But this brings up so many other problems now. It's like every update they take a step forward, but two steps backwards. Now freeps can't gear for different playstyles, they must wear the new pvp gear and have no choice to wear anything else or they will lose their -30% incoming damage. Creeps get audacity as a passive ability, without sacrificing anything at all.
    Well after reading the warg updates, I knew Flayer is going to be a pain in the neck for us LMs, but adding that to audacity would leave us in a laughable state....

    Btw, you mentioned Defilers....is healing getting a buff?....because defilers were always the easiest class to beat on my LM.....WLs would be difficult I assume....but a 300 Burning Embers is ridiculous.....maybe it was because your WL was a rank 15 which is a rare sight?....because my Burning Embers with the best gear I have atm is 900-1200....even with a 50 percent reduction in damage becoz of full maxed audacity, that should atleast hit for 500+....or are mitigations on creep side buffed that much too?....


    But anyways, on the whole I think this point should be raised.....and the time is now....those of you guys who are on Bullroarer (I am not ) pls could you raise this topic and get it sorted out with the devs?.....because if this isnt brought to notice now, we might have to wait for the next patch or even RoR maybe to get things back to normal if this affects us badly.....Posting on the BR forums as well as raising this issue on Live BR would help too.....and the more LMs point it out, the better.....
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  24. #24
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    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by babaju2 View Post
    Creeps get audacity as a passive ability, without sacrificing anything at all.
    Mostly , because they don't have anything to lose .

    And btw , freep pvmp sets have waaaaaaaaaay better bonuses than ToO / Dragoich ones .

    Specially LM sets are yummy ( ironically , I can see myself using pvmp sets for pve ) .
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/222190100001be9b6/signature.png]Berserkr[/charsig]
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  25. #25

    Re: Lore-masters & Audacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spordo View Post
    Well, if we're talking inductions, take a look at Defilers for example... All their main skills attack-skills, heals or otherwise anything important, has drastic induction times, pretty much on level with LMs. Defilers don't have the luxury of rooting, slowing and stunning their targets on more than what one or two skills (can't remember from the top of my head), at least one of those skills is a melee skill at that making it even less useful compared to having the same ability 30m away.

    It really doesn't matter how you twist and turn the facts, the CC-effects Audacity will have will hit all CC's equally. It's just a matter of different play-styles for different classes. Whether creep or Freep doesn't really have a lot of impact on that argument.
    Check your facts. Foolish post is foolish.

    Defilers do not have the same skills as LM's of course they don't, they are Defilers. Fears, slows, DOTS, HOTS all parts of a defilers arsenal that require no induction.

    Have you even played a LM? Probably not and that is the point. If you don't know the class, don't jump into the "LM" forum and post a bunch of trash.
    I wonder what's more foolish, copying and pasting quotes and conveniently cutting out the main point of the quote or calling someone foolish to boost your e-peen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal View Post
    Defilers do not have the same skills as LM's of course they don't, they are Defilers. Fears, slows, DOTS, HOTS all parts of a defilers arsenal that require no induction.
    Oh please, Defilers have 2 instant-cast ranged debuffs.
    They have at most 2 instant cast HoT which can be used in battle, none of which gets anywhere near the kind of damage output of pretty much any freep class.
    Defiler ranged DoTs are also all cumbered with mostly 2sec inducements which can be traited down to 1sec inducements.

    Now, my argument wasn't that Defilers skills were the same as Loremasters but rather about the inductions. Once targeted, there's pretty much nothing you can do as a Defiler except run around HoTing yourself and hoping someone notices and helps you out. Sure, you can use the 2 melee skills as well but they won't matter too much in the long run. You can drag out a 1v1 for a while but to actually come out on top you're hard pushed. Very few Defilers I know of can manage 1v1 very well.

    All in all, your try at smartassery failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    Everyone's playstyle is different of course, but I believe the following holds true in the general sense. Lore-masters in the Ettens are reliant on their CC abilities not so much to lock down a creep, but rather to actually use their attack skills. Almost every attack skill we have has an induction, and certainly our most potent attacks all have inductions. Creeps can interrupt inductions of course, but even ignoring that constantly being hit means inductions are constantly knocked back, which means we find it incredibly difficult to actually use any of our attacks when that is happening. Thus we rely on our CC abilities to stop a creep for a couple of seconds and be able to get off an attack.
    Which is pretty much the same for a Defiler for example. Once someone starts hittin' ya, you're out of the fight until they stop hittin' ya.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    I see people talking about the potency of CC on each side, that is very much a side issue here. The main issue affecting LMs with Audacity isn't in keeping a target permanently under control, it's about actually being able to function. That's the key point. We're not using CC so much to keep someone out of a fight as we are using it to buy ourselves time to actually do anything at all.
    That's true but it's a very slight nuance in my opinion, only really semantics. How is that different from any other CC-user except perhaps the burgs ability to keep you in stun-lock until you're dead pretty much. Spiders use their CC so that they can get more time for their DoTs or to enable someone else to kill their target.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    There are few, if any, other classes in the game that rely on CC like this in the Ettens. The LM simply doesn't have the options available to fight without using some form of CC. Without being to buy yourself a second or two here and there to get an induction off you are pretty much resigned to using the two staff skills, the weak Wizard's Fire DoT and Storm-lore.
    Which again is pretty much the same for a Defiler (who incidentally doesn't have plenty of CC-skills to help them out). Defilers cna use the tenderize skill which might (25% chance) daze the target, the headbreaker skill for some slight DoT on the target and then HoTs on himself to stay alive a few more seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    However, for LMs CC isn't about trying to keep someone out of a fight. If CC is being relegated to a bit player in the Ettens with Audacity then I really do think there needs to be a change made to the Lore-master class to compensate for that. We rely on CC so heavily that reducing its effectiveness will seriously diminish our ability to function properly.

    Should that mean our CC becomes super-potent to counter Audacity? I don't believe so. I like the idea of moving away from long duration CC, but in so doing the LM will probably need more options for induction setback immunity or perhaps even more attack options that don't have inductions.
    While I don't agree with all of your post, you do make sense in most places. No, a LMs CC isn't about keeping someone out of the fight, just to keep soeone out of the fight long enough to possibly kill him.

    I do agree with your general notion however, if (and that's the emphasis here really) LMs are rendered useless by the addition of Audacity (which we'll have to agree to disagree upon until it's actually live). As babaju2 posted above, 1v1 a LM might not be very useful against a Defiler or Warleader but then again, PvMP has never really been about 1v1.
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