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  1. #1
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    The Two Blue Wizards

    I know who they where and vaguely where they went....my question is why? I find it interesting that Tolkien gives us their name, their qualities and their misson but nothing else. Do you suppose he had meant to write more about them? And what about Radagast? We see a bit more of him but still, in my mind, not enough to justify the amount of time creating these characters. Maybe I'm just a tad bit OCD but if I had gone through the trouble to make such powerful and important characters I would want to tell their story. What do you think?

  2. #2

    Wink Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Tolkien was clearly insane. That's my only guess as to why he'd create them and then do nothing with them.

  3. #3
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Well, I always wondered the same about them, wishing there was more with them, but perhaps Tolkien's lack of story for them allows us to make one for them, perhaps it leaves an opening for a RP character in game
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  4. #4
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by brianvencill View Post
    Tolkien was clearly insane. That's my only guess as to why he'd create them and then do nothing with them.
    Let's see...

    Giant talking eagles, walking trees, shape shifting bear people, oh and an immensely powerful being who just wants to prance around and pick flowers all day? And that's just for starters...

    It's true Tolkien might be insane. But he's my kind of insane!

    Personally, I think the Blue Wizards are just some of the many characters Tolkien just never found the time to flesh out fully...
    Today is a good day for Pie.

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  5. #5
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    tolkien is known for creating characters who dont quite fit- bombadil, radagast...so its no surprise he made characters who dont have any background

    saying that think of the implications of not writing alot about the 3 other wizards.....so the main powers of middle earth-you have gandalf- the good, then you have sauron- the evil, and then you have saruman- who is the changing character between the two

    so if we had 3 extra wizards- that we can only assume were good, then the power balance would shift inevitably

    it would mean tolkien would have to change the story dramatically. tolkiens beauty was in his moderation -
    he was the master of making our imaginations exploded with only the littlest description (which is sadly hard to find in modern fantasy in my opinion)
    i think it would be far less effective if we had many many magical peoples (and i dont mean elvish or dwarven magic)
    it makes gandalf and co much more interesting

  6. #6
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Didn't Tolkien imply that the blue Wizards might have been corrupted, forming cults of sorts in the far east?

  7. #7
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisDW View Post
    Didn't Tolkien imply that the blue Wizards might have been corrupted, forming cults of sorts in the far east?
    im sure he said something along the lines of not even he knew, and that they probably wandered from their task and may have formed cults

  8. #8
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    I understand that in earlier letters, it is hinted that the Blue Wizards were corrupted. In later sources, it is suggested instead that their effort on causing uprisings in the far east was crucial on tying up Sauron's forces. Which version should be considered as true? We don't know. If telling a story, that would be up to the storyteller. In an RP campaign, deciding would be up to the game master. As for Tolkien-scholars, if wanting to reconstruct the mythos, one would need to lock a (real world) date as an anchor and construct the mythos as it was (or, use the newest source, but then some parts of the LotR or at least appendices might need to be retconned).

  9. #9
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithfindel View Post
    I understand that in earlier letters, it is hinted that the Blue Wizards were corrupted. In later sources, it is suggested instead that their effort on causing uprisings in the far east was crucial on tying up Sauron's forces. Which version should be considered as true? We don't know. If telling a story, that would be up to the storyteller. In an RP campaign, deciding would be up to the game master. As for Tolkien-scholars, if wanting to reconstruct the mythos, one would need to lock a (real world) date as an anchor and construct the mythos as it was (or, use the newest source, but then some parts of the LotR or at least appendices might need to be retconned).
    agreed, tolkien liked to change his mind on these things!

  10. #10

    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironcrown View Post
    I know who they where and vaguely where they went....my question is why? I find it interesting that Tolkien gives us their name, their qualities and their misson but nothing else. Do you suppose he had meant to write more about them? And what about Radagast? We see a bit more of him but still, in my mind, not enough to justify the amount of time creating these characters. Maybe I'm just a tad bit OCD but if I had gone through the trouble to make such powerful and important characters I would want to tell their story. What do you think?
    I believe if Tolkien would finish the Silmarillion himself there would be clearer vision of them, as well as many other things. Now, Silmarillion is a piece finished by his son and thus many things can seem unfinished or unclear as Christopher didnt want to add his own ideas.

    Personally Blue Wizards just interest me a lot, because this just makes them more mysterious

  11. #11
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    I believe I read somewhere (probably some of Tolkien's letters) that the latest version was where the Blue Wizards were actually successful, or otherwise Sauron's strength would have been much bigger, fuelled by armies from the far east. But I guess we will never know - after all, a little bit of mystery makes it only more interesting
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  12. #12
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    "(...) and they had no name, except Ithryn Luin (Blue Wizards), because they went to the East with Lurunír, and never came back; (...)" (Unfinished Tales, free translation)

    As not even google can find this guy, is Lurunír a character or is this just a typo? (then it should be "Curunír", tho I don't know what East the text refers to)
    Retired for good.

  13. #13

    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiolas View Post
    "(...) and they had no name, except Ithryn Luin (Blue Wizards), because they went to the East with Lurunír, and never came back; (...)" (Unfinished Tales, free translation)

    As not even google can find this guy, is Lurunír a character or is this just a typo? (then it should be "Curunír", tho I don't know what East the text refers to)
    It was Curunír. As for the East - it's not really specified although I assume it's somewhere beyond the Iron Hills and Mordor.
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  14. #14
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Saruman went beyond Middle-Earth?
    Retired for good.

  15. #15

    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiolas View Post
    Saruman went beyond Middle-Earth?
    Technically they all did as they originally came from Valinor. In this case he went somewhere East for a while and then returned. Tolkien never really explained why or what he may have learned from the trip. (This is all from Unfinished Tales so not quite canon but I see nothing in this that contradicts anything in LOTR.)
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  16. #16
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    It could be true that he was conflicted over the story of the Blue Wizards (similar to the conflicting events in the story of Galadriel and Celeborn) and he never had time to put it down on paper. Either way, I prefer the version of the story that they fail. It makes Gandalf's success with the great line of the Kings of Man even more significant imo.
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  17. #17
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Or maybe split the difference? One worked among the peoples of the east, enlightening them to the truth and undercutting Sauron's influence, but the other fell and began his own cults and religions and rises to power and fought against the first.

    At any rate, that was an extremely difficult job for anyone, as they were in the heart of a territory long held by Sauron and Morgoth with no intervention from the Valar at all before this that we know of.

  18. #18

    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...O/kwarrior.png
    http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28.../ksorceror.png

    the second image is from the bullroarer server in the new zone...the brown lands to be precise and it maybe shows that the wizards did infact set up cults
    Last edited by Aegaldan; Mar 09 2012 at 10:40 AM.

  19. #19
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    SPOILER-ALERT (highlight to read):

    Quote Originally Posted by Aegaldan View Post
    http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/imarichan/LOTRO/kwarrior.png
    http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/imarichan/LOTRO/ksorceror.png

    the second image is from the bullroarer server in the new zone...the brown lands to be precise and it maybe shows that the wizards did infact set up cults

    Indeed so. The guy in the second image is also named, as I recall, "Sorcerer of the Blue caste", or something like that, setting him apart from the regular easterlings of the region who are named (I think) "Khundolar Warrior", "Khundolar Archer", and so on. I think those are indeed references to the Blue Wizards, and while it doesn't say anything about Tolkien's final vision of the Blue Wizard's fate, it shows that in Turbine's Middle-Earth, at least, the Blue Wizards failed (I like BBSoonerOU's reasoning that their failure makes Gandalf's victory even more significant).
    Last edited by Macfeast; Mar 09 2012 at 11:02 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    "Khundolar Warrior", "Khundolar Archer"

    The area east in referred to as Khand methinks.....related?
    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, Count your change, And try to walk the line"

  21. #21

    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    It's been a long time, but I seem to recall that Turbine worked the Blue Wizards into the story of the Rift of Nurz Ghashu. If I remember right, Glathlirel (the elf who guards Thaurlach) describes how the BW's helped her to imprison the balrog when they were passing through Angmar at some point.

  22. #22

    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    To the best of my knowledge, here is what is known about the Blue Wizards from lore:
    1. Their names in Valinorin are Alatar and Pallando
    2. Their names in Quenya are Romestamo and Morhinatar. Which is which is not known.
    3. Alatar was the more powerful of the two.
    4. They came over from Valinor some time before Gandalf.
    5. They went east beyond Mordor with Saruman, but did not return with him.
    6. In Valinor, they were servants of Ulmo.
    7. Some versions of Tolkien's notes imply that they fell in much the same manner that Saruman did. Some versions imply that they somehow mobilized a force on Mordor's eastern boarder.

    I prefer to think that Saruman coming back from the east without them was the beginning of Saruman's fall. After all, he never mentions to anyone else what happened to Alatar and Pallando. Clearly, something happened. Whether this means that the Blue Wizards fell first and put the idea in Saruman's head or whether Saruman himself was responsible for them not making it back is something I could never decide. As for what happened to the Blue Wizards, I like to think that it was some delicious combination of Tolkien's notes.
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    [b]Landroval:[/b] Megildan, Fréodgyth, Faerelleth, Doronrien, Wilbeorht, Thanadoc, Skaldon, Beregelleth, Hadoriel[/center]

  23. #23
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    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Berzerker_prime View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, here is what is known about the Blue Wizards from lore:
    1. Their names in Valinorin are Alatar and Pallando
    2. Their names in Quenya are Romestamo and Morhinatar. Which is which is not known.
    3. Alatar was the more powerful of the two.
    4. They came over from Valinor some time before Gandalf.
    5. They went east beyond Mordor with Saruman, but did not return with him.
    6. In Valinor, they were servants of Ulmo.
    7. Some versions of Tolkien's notes imply that they fell in much the same manner that Saruman did. Some versions imply that they somehow mobilized a force on Mordor's eastern boarder.

    I prefer to think that Saruman coming back from the east without them was the beginning of Saruman's fall. After all, he never mentions to anyone else what happened to Alatar and Pallando. Clearly, something happened. Whether this means that the Blue Wizards fell first and put the idea in Saruman's head or whether Saruman himself was responsible for them not making it back is something I could never decide. As for what happened to the Blue Wizards, I like to think that it was some delicious combination of Tolkien's notes.
    OOOOHHH...I like that...maybe one falls under Sauron's influence and the other battles it out to prevent Sauron's dominion from spreading...nice.

  24. #24

    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    The other wizards have always interested me a lot too. I hope some time Christopher finds some more notes on them while sifting through them all.

    Radaghast is interesting to me because he is almost the opposite of Saruman in his "fall". Instead of falling to evil, he is waylaid by his love of nature and creatures and becomes rather like Tom Bombadil in his lack of care for the war itself and being completely absorbed in nature. Which is worse for him because he was sent there to help win the war. It was nice that he was part of the epic quest though, pretty cool to see a visual representation of him even if Im not sure he would get that involved.
    The only thing that could make this game better is even more realistic trees. Especially in lorien Full immersion complete :D

  25. #25

    Re: The Two Blue Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by tkdyoo View Post
    pretty cool to see a visual representation of him even if Im not sure he would get that involved
    he just couldn't sit by and let the squirrels and the bunnies suffer like that

 

 
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