We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30
  1. #1

    Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Not making a call either way.

    It's just that I have been noticing, might just be our server, that if we play smart and aggressive we can actually hold our own pretty well.

    The other day Lugsmashh and I took on 6 middle-rank freeps, killing 2 of them and nearly burning a third before we went down. Considering that creeps apparently only hold their own with numerical superiority it would seem we're not that bad....or maybe Uruks are just boss.....

    I agree that statistically creeps are undeniably disadvantaged but hey, look at the Battle of Britain, Thermopylae etc.
    If you play your cards right you can generally overcome the odds, or at least die well (read, take some with you).

    My suggestion is that the perceived godmoding of freeps is roughly equally due to tactical stagnation, lack of aggression, bad group make-ups (which I suppose is caused by F2P?), reluctance to work together (a growing factor of late) and poor focus fire of creepside as it the superiority of freep classes.

    Sorry for the rant, I made the mistake of looking at the creep forum and got wound up by the amount of whining

    My purpose is not to have a go at creeps who feel (justifiably) hard done by, but to offer hope that we can still have fun, decent kills and (most importantly) a few laughs when we log onto the moors.

    Peace out rabbits

    Herman
    3 The Campfire
    Elf Camp
    Ettenmoors

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    My own little world
    Posts
    208

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    I tend to agree with you. The outcomes of most battles depend on group makeups, focus fire, and the element of surprise.

    For my example, I will refer to some battles of equally matched raids a week or so ago. Alaganosu (Sp?) was leading the freeps, and I was leading the creeps. At the beginning, I was trying to heal and asked quagmirre and Seleth to be my target assists. Focus fire was terrible and strategy was bad. Even with the heavy healing we were getting wiped. After that I put myself down as solo target assist, and started really leading. Bam! The freeps wiped horribly. By fixing our weakest link, we were able to win.
    The exception is that if both creeps are freeps have the perfect setup, great focus fire, and good healing, the freeps are going to win. You really can't beat a perfectly played freep group because of 'opness' aka. balance issues. That's what makes people so angry.

    A lot of winning and loosing just comes down to how well your group plays. To conclude my post, I'm going to quote a little saying of Itty's (On that I have here-to-forth stolen from him) "50% focus fire; 50% surprise"

    Fun stuff, raiding is.

    ~Akban

    P.S. I know I'm terrible at getting my thoughts on paper. Thank you for your time
    Last edited by Aarow; Feb 06 2012 at 01:31 AM. Reason: Tab button

  3. #3

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Good comments

    I suppose I should add that my views are a bit skewed by my timezone which means I usually only play 6v6 or so at most.

    A lot of us around that time are also 'playing for lolz' which evens the field a bit
    Last edited by ErueraNZ; Feb 06 2012 at 01:36 AM.

  4. #4

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ErueraNZ View Post
    Not making a call either way.

    It's just that I have been noticing, might just be our server, that if we play smart and aggressive we can actually hold our own pretty well.

    The other day Lugsmashh and I took on 6 middle-rank freeps, killing 2 of them and nearly burning a third before we went down. Considering that creeps apparently only hold their own with numerical superiority it would seem we're not that bad....or maybe Uruks are just boss.....

    I agree that statistically creeps are undeniably disadvantaged but hey, look at the Battle of Britain, Thermopylae etc.
    If you play your cards right you can generally overcome the odds, or at least die well (read, take some with you).

    My suggestion is that the perceived godmoding of freeps is roughly equally due to tactical stagnation, lack of aggression, bad group make-ups (which I suppose is caused by F2P?), reluctance to work together (a growing factor of late) and poor focus fire of creepside as it the superiority of freep classes.

    Sorry for the rant, I made the mistake of looking at the creep forum and got wound up by the amount of whining

    My purpose is not to have a go at creeps who feel (justifiably) hard done by, but to offer hope that we can still have fun, decent kills and (most importantly) a few laughs when we log onto the moors.

    Peace out rabbits

    Herman
    3 The Campfire
    Elf Camp
    Ettenmoors
    Quick reply
    we do over all less dmg then a freep class and unless i mistaken with the exception of sprint,moveing target,and i guess burrow the creep classes lack the individual defensive CD that almost all freep classes seem to have. I think if they gave us a few more defensive ability's that you cast on your self instead of having to pray that you either get a heal or a WL bubble then we would be pretty comparable.

    as far as tactics goes yes a well lead raid even with inferior #s or a poor selection of classes can make the difference but this works both ways so it cant really apply to whiter or not we are truly underpowered. in the end yes creeps are underpowered by comparison both in stats and ability's (but we have some really good one like blight) but maybe some of our healers could go for a mini bubble and could you imagine if a reaver had a weaker version of a champ bubble we might acutly be alive at the end of our charge. But our weakness havent stoped us from wipeing the floor with the freeps before the but they havent made it any harder from them to do the same thing if they are organized.

    on a side note i have never been in any of my former or current tribe raids or grp (open or closed raids) where we didnt FF or use tactics like flanks and W/E and so on. so the "tactical stagnation" your talking about just makes no sense to me you just must be lacking good leadership atm. so the ones left behind that like to think they are good leaders might have to rethink what they think they know and not second guess themselves so much. HERE'S LOOKING AT YOU QUAGMIRE.

  5. #5

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Also BA are pretty well off atm so yeah uruks are boss.

  6. #6

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealVang View Post
    Quick reply
    we do over all less dmg then a freep class and unless i mistaken with the exception of sprint,moveing target,and i guess burrow the creep classes lack the individual defensive CD that almost all freep classes seem to have. I think if they gave us a few more defensive ability's that you cast on your self instead of having to pray that you either get a heal or a WL bubble then we would be pretty comparable.

    as far as tactics goes yes a well lead raid even with inferior #s or a poor selection of classes can make the difference but this works both ways so it cant really apply to whiter or not we are truly underpowered. in the end yes creeps are underpowered by comparison both in stats and ability's (but we have some really good one like blight) but maybe some of our healers could go for a mini bubble and could you imagine if a reaver had a weaker version of a champ bubble we might acutly be alive at the end of our charge. But our weakness havent stoped us from wipeing the floor with the freeps before the but they havent made it any harder from them to do the same thing if they are organized.

    on a side note i have never been in any of my former or current tribe raids or grp (open or closed raids) where we didnt FF or use tactics like flanks and W/E and so on. so the "tactical stagnation" your talking about just makes no sense to me you just must be lacking good leadership atm. so the ones left behind that like to think they are good leaders might have to rethink what they think they know and not second guess themselves so much. HERE'S LOOKING AT YOU QUAGMIRE.
    Regarding you first point I don't disagree but I would point out that underpowered and less-powerful are not necessarily the same thing in my mind, when we consider that the premise of PvMP being a rabble of orcs and such against the heroes of middle earth. I guess my point is that while we are certainly gimped compared to a freep, we are sufficiently 'powerful' to get some kills, cause some havoc and generally have a good time. It'd be great to be toe-to-toe with the freeps but I don't feel I need to be in order to have fun

    You have been very lucky in your raid opportunities it would seem as I rarely find a group who focus fire or take directions effectively. Similarly many groups tend toward, I paraphrase Euan, yawning at the enemy on TA lawn, which I agree indicates a lack of good leadership.

    The tactical stagnation to which I refer is the predominance of the following set piece:
    ->Push
    ->Get wiped
    ->Sit in NPCs - wait for freeps to push
    ->Freeps push
    ->Rage-out because of zerg

    Predominance is probably an exaggeration but I do see this alot, it really doesn't make for a dynamic and exciting battlefield, and leads to a lot of boredom. You might not have this problem in TDH but I'm fairly sure I'm not alone.

    Anyway it's all pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things as people will continue to play the way they want to play, which is totally fine. All I hope is that those who have given up in disgust or frustration caused by the imbalance just give the current situation a chance and make the best of what it is, for there are still good times a-plenty to be had on the moors.

    Signin' out.

  7. #7

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    To answer your question - Yes, creeps are REALLY that underopowered as CLASSES, not as players (which, of course is frustrating, knowing you lost that fight because he had 2 bubbles, 3 3k heals, 10 stuns, 70% evade etc, etc[evade actually works for a creep class too, HAH!!!] )
    This, however, doesn't mean that a well made and led creep-machine doesn't function well. Lots of owning has been done on creeps and shall be done.
    Last edited by Nifroth; Feb 06 2012 at 10:41 AM.

  8. #8

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Underpowered? Really? Try running around the Moors at lvl 75, but with only a 3rd Age LI and non-PvMP gear and convince me creeps are still underpowered, lol.

    But run around I do. Grouped or not I do my part in a brawl, but dying still comes quick for this toon. However, that's what I expect to happen. If I group great, if I don't that's fine too. Sometimes I'm reminded of the kid-picked-last-in-the-schoolyard-syndrome...lol

    As far as freeps not grouping? As I see things, many of the freeps are creeps, so if the same will group as creeps, but seldom do so as freeps, they're doing it this way for a reason. What that reason is is beyond the scope of this freep's understanding.

    Some of what is happening now in the Moors is, I believe in part, due to "short" attention spans. As evidenced in some other posts SWTOR is the new pink and folks are moving on. Apparently the release of GW2 will see another exodus. And that's fine. It is after all, your money not someone elses' that determines your playing habits.

    See ya 'round the moors.

  9. #9

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Yeah, as a hunter you rarely have a way to beat a zerg alone...but being undergeared it only makes sense you lose to a creep who has spent maybe several months learning his class, if you lose to a lowbie solo creep then it means you only need practice or he was lucky ^^.
    But talking about undergeared - Beoron (god, i KNOW i miss-spelled that) a mini, relatively fresh to the moors from what i see. Last I saw he had his 3rd agers and sub-par gear. That guy beat Toxic, no disrespect, but I don't think that's due to being better than him, this IMO should not happen, lol.
    ./rant over

  10. #10

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifroth View Post
    To answer your question - Yes, creeps are REALLY that underopowered as CLASSES, not as players
    ^Agree with this. Freeps have a large advantage at the moment. Assuming equal skill, numbers and raid make up on either side freeps should not lose. Too lazy to find it, check out some of the pvp vids from the older and more populated servers - some 12 man freep raids mowing down 24+ man creep groups.

    Can creeps come on top with superior play?....sure. Lots of variables come into play (class makeup, gear, experience, player skill, listening to raid leader etc, etc.)

    WRT Uruks: In terms of creep raids - I would suggest BA's and healers are really all that is optimally viable atm - and maybe a spider for web the earth.

  11. #11

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifroth View Post
    Yeah, as a hunter you rarely have a way to beat a zerg alone...but being undergeared it only makes sense you lose to a creep who has spent maybe several months learning his class, if you lose to a lowbie solo creep then it means you only need practice or he was lucky ^^.
    But talking about undergeared - Beoron (god, i KNOW i miss-spelled that) a mini, relatively fresh to the moors from what i see. Last I saw he had his 3rd agers and sub-par gear. That guy beat Toxic, no disrespect, but I don't think that's due to being better than him, this IMO should not happen, lol.
    ./rant over
    Ahh Beoron. Kin mate of mine and a great guy. He has pathetic gear, is very new to the moors(although he does know his mini quite well), but has been tearing people up out there because of how OP his class is (and he knows it and revels in it ).

    Chiron quote after I asked him if he knew who Beoron was.....his reply "Yeah that minstrel that learnt he was OP. Went from running me all the way through TA, to camping Grams and waiting for me in 2 weeks....."

    Burgs, Minstrels, Champs and very well geared Cappies are so OP at the moment, these guys shouldn't lose 1v1s to anyone at the moment.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    340

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Didn't read all the responses, just up to Hawk...

    Reavers are gimped because they're the free to play class.

    Hunters have no defensive skill, even though we do have range... just throwing that out there.

    Creeps generally have more morale than freeps... creeps are underpowered 1v1 because there are designed to be more of them.

    In raid vs raid, the winner is the group that can focus fire better, and that has cojenes. When you run you die... A perfect freep group of 6 should be able to take down a perfect creep group of 8... The other night myself, another hunter, champ and cappy took down Chiron, Stynak, Teslashak and another war leader without losing a person... When working together, freeps are just designed better. However, with free to play especially, creeps often have superior numbers.

    Either way, update 6 should really help creeps out, unless of course freeps get a massive boost, which I've heard nothing about.

  13. #13

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?


  14. #14

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Spiders are also the "weakest creep class" but somehow I still manage to faceroll as one.....I think the creeps in the creep forum are all people who just need to learn to play and acept deaths.

  15. #15

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Straego View Post
    Spiders are also the "weakest creep class" but somehow I still manage to faceroll as one.....I think the creeps in the creep forum are all people who just need to learn to play and acept deaths.
    I think you may have a good point here

  16. #16

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Pretty much, Halk, but my point still stands, and it is a good reason for a lot of even older and experienced creeps to be angry/mad/sad.
    Anyways, since we started this in ooc while I was on yesterday -

    http://my.lotro.com/user-55/category...lass-revision/

    Only wish it came out with the first landscape are sometime in spring...

    *edit* Lol, idk what happened, but the warg changes he posted seem to be gone-ish atm? XD we know it should NOT be a joke, but lets pretend I posted this for all the wardens out there... If anyone gets the link, go and post it, I am too lazy to check for it :P

    *edit2* http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...gs-in-Update-6

    Because I know people don't read what Arach writes :P
    Last edited by Nifroth; Feb 08 2012 at 04:43 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    724

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    With even and low numbers and ranks 6+ creeps are competitive.
    Freeps do more damage, creeps have more morale.

    As the numbers increase it skews more and more to freeps. Consider that having more morale is insignificant when a raid of 20 is focus firing one guy, but having more damage makes it easier to burn through a guy getting healed. War Leaders essentially even out the numbers by res'ing huge numbers of creeps in-combat, on a low cooldown. This was fine until mini's got their aoe res. And various minis will try flopping or dying w/ a captain res to get OOC and pop their aoe res. Champs and minstrels are pretty OP right now as virtually any creep knows.

    CC - Creeps don't have CC or aoe stuns comparable to what freepside has. I'd ask you how often you use a stun pot on freepside, and it's probably occasionally while retreating etc... On creepside it's pretty much constant.

    AOE - Creep AOE, compared to loremasters, runekeepers, and champions, is pretty much a joke. This is pretty easily illustrated when you watch creeps do a big pull on TR or something, it takes them about 5 minutes to kill the trash, a freep raid with a few champs and LM's will have burned that down in about 1 minute. Worst part about this is it makes the creeps cowardly about fighting in tight spaces.

    UP - Some creep classes are pretty underpowered depending on the number of people on. Warg, spiders, and defilers are sub-optimal. If you recall Krool posting about his ideal raid, it was basically 2 WL's, 2 BA's, and 2 Reavers in every group, with 1 spider, one defiler, and one warg... Or numbers very similar to that. And frankly he's not wrong.

    ANYWAY.... I enjoy discussing this purely from a design standpoint I don't really care about the result.. I think the creep-zerg aspect makes sense although they've stated they might move away from it. Some cool battles in the moors are when the fight's pretty even but the freeps gradually get overwhelmed by res'ing creeps... Or the opposite occurs where the freeps manage to hold off the onslaught with half their people dead and everyone playing superbly.
    Last edited by DuneBug; Feb 07 2012 at 04:21 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    616

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Yes

    Creeps need to be perfect to win against freeps. If the freeps have any idea of what they are doing.

    Creeps have been freep play toys for as long as I remember. I don't see that changing. But we still play this game cause it's open world sorta and sandboxish. Free reign on a map for fighting. Turbine has a great thing here that they put no effort in.

    /salute
    Krool

    See ya in GW2
    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c214010000090924/signature.png]Krool[/charsig][/CENTER]
    [CENTER]“Fantasy remains a human right. We make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made, and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a Maker.” J.R.R. Tolkien[/CENTER]

  19. #19

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifroth View Post
    *edit* Lol, idk what happened, but the warg changes he posted seem to be gone-ish atm? :P
    Notice that these same changes are in my blog.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...gs-in-Update-6

  20. #20

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliffle View Post
    Notice that these same changes are in my blog.
    No surprise there, I knew you owned LOTRO :P but I don't think everyone checked your blog or did they? O_O

  21. #21

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoges View Post
    Burgs, Minstrels, Champs and very well geared Cappies are so OP at the moment, these guys shouldn't lose 1v1s to anyone at the moment.
    I'm sorry, I have to refute that bolded part. Captains are far from OP. Perhaps the only class less OP than us is the Warden, and that's going to be changed with U6.

    Yes, we have high armor. But the both our self-heals and DPS suck rocks. We have two self-heal skills. One self-heals for ~700 every 30s, and the other self-heals for ~1k. However, the 1k heal is crit-gated on a skill with a 12s cooldown, so in many fights I never get to use it. A lone Captain is so incredibly far from OP that we can't even see OP from where we're at.

    Our one other self-heal comes from 15% of our damage done being converted into healing. However, since our DPS sucks rocks, healing from Revealing Mark... (wait for it) sucks rocks. I am a well-geared Captain. I'm not insanely decked out, but I have endgame raid gear and decent crafted jewelry, as well as very good DPS LIs. However, when I sparred Itty I pulled less than 300 DPS every fight. Even against a normal creep, I rarely break 400 DPS. The few times I do are usually in short bursts from lucky crits.

    That said, put a Captain in a group and we make everyone around us OP. I'm pretty weak solo, but holy balls can I give people godmode

  22. #22

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noridan View Post
    Underpowered? Really? Try running around the Moors at lvl 75, but with only a 3rd Age LI and non-PvMP gear and convince me creeps are still underpowered, lol.

    But run around I do. Grouped or not I do my part in a brawl, but dying still comes quick for this toon. However, that's what I expect to happen. If I group great, if I don't that's fine too. Sometimes I'm reminded of the kid-picked-last-in-the-schoolyard-syndrome...lol

    As far as freeps not grouping? As I see things, many of the freeps are creeps, so if the same will group as creeps, but seldom do so as freeps, they're doing it this way for a reason. What that reason is is beyond the scope of this freep's understanding.

    Some of what is happening now in the Moors is, I believe in part, due to "short" attention spans. As evidenced in some other posts SWTOR is the new pink and folks are moving on. Apparently the release of GW2 will see another exodus. And that's fine. It is after all, your money not someone elses' that determines your playing habits.

    See ya 'round the moors.
    if you gear isnt good dont pick a fight with a ranked creep.

    Freep power = gear
    Creep power = rank

    I was killing rank 1-3 creeps on my 65 no problem also in lvl 60 moria gear with a 60 first age
    Last edited by TheRealVang; Feb 08 2012 at 06:32 PM.

  23. #23

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifroth View Post
    No surprise there, I knew you owned LOTRO :P but I don't think everyone checked your blog or did they? O_O
    There will be some twist later on in this movie. I become the new head of PvMP development; wouldn't that be hilarious.

    I got quite a few messages requesting the password to the blog. Mostly from people of other servers if that tells you anything.

  24. #24

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    Tells me you get around? XD
    Also, I wouldn't mind you becoming the pvmp head

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    183

    Re: Are Creeps REALLY that underpowered?

    I think the original point is well made. 1) the map is nearly perma-red. 2) ranked creeps do quite well and win often in 1v1. 3) leadership and following directions make all the difference for success or failure. I got in a small group led by Akban a couple nights ago, the numbers were fairly even we may have even been outnumbered... but we consistently won/wiped the freeps. I am not discounting that creeps are underpowerd, but I would say they are not underpowerd so much that it makes a huge (or even that much of a) difference.

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload