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  1. #51

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Norowen View Post
    You're both right, this would be the simplest, and probably what they already have planned.

    What it doesn't do is anything to help revive old neighborhoods that are filled with mostly abandoned houses. Aside from the very real convenience factor of having homes together with friends and kin in a neighborhood, the older neighborhoods are eerily silent. We regularly check the homes in our neighborhood to see if anyone has paid the upkeep, but alas, no, nobody "lives here" but a few of us who managed to be around when the neighborhood opened up.

    If abandoned homes were put back up for sale, with a token to the previous owners for a similar home in a new neighborhood should they return, AND a short-term offering made to long-time kinships in those neighborhoods for "first right of purchase" for said homes, it would be A Very Good Thing(tm). At the same time we'd advocate a way to pay-forward for homes for as long as a player wants to pay forward (up to two years?) in the event they're being stationed elsewhere.

    There are options other than just spawning more neighborhoods to have yet more empty, lifeless, places to live. Options that don't penalize unnecessarily, yet also breathe some life back into neighborhoods.
    The trouble is that, at least in most cases, it's going to take a whole lot more than "repossessing" vacant houses in order to breathe some life back into neighborhoods. While this is a different issue all together, it boils down to the fact that there's really no reason to hang around in a neighborhood. There's no stables, the port has a obnoxiously long cooldown, and the only thing you can gain from going there is picking up some stuff from storage. Even that last part has been reduced in importance with shared storage, combined with how much easier it is just to make a bank alt. I mean, bank alts can move - your house can't.

    If Turbine really wanted to breathe life into the neighborhoods, they'd make them have a lot more relevance to the game. Adding crafting stations would be a start, some kind of daily quest picked up by the town crier for a tempting reward, or even some kind of festival-like activity one can do. Putting a major travel hub in each neighborhood would make it even more tempting for people to spend more time in the neighborhoods.

    But right now, if they can't even do the easiest solution - even if it is a band-aid, then there's not much of a point in freeing up the "abandoned" houses. Because even if every house was occupied by an active account, the neighborhoods would be, with very few exceptions, still just as dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post

    I don't know about you, but some of us have known all along that houses are a finite resource. Turbine originally stated that the maximum was 250 neighborhoods in each area. From some data presented in this thread, that appears to have been increased to 325 in at least one case. Still...even without Turbine's statement, I could have told you there were a finitie number, since the hardware that runs LoTRO is finite.
    The trouble is, it's not a finite resource - at least in the literal sense of the word. It's merely an arbitrary limit placed so they don't have to worry about the storage requirements getting out of hand - or having to come up with more names than they need. They bumped the limit once when it was needed, and they'll do it again, from the looks of things, within the year.
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  2. #52
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    There is an upper limit.

    Brandywine has hit the limit. .
    I'm sure your forum-search-fu is much better than most but I do seem to remember there was much diiscussion over a year ago that the actual logical "limit" due to server capacity and programming limits was set at ~255 neighborhoods per racial area.

    I'd be shocked to hear that any server was even close to this as the housing census thread I assisted in at the time on my server did not even come close to 1/4 of that number being completely bought out, IIRC.
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  3. #53

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stilgaard View Post
    I'm sure your forum-search-fu is much better than most but I do seem to remember there was much diiscussion over a year ago that the actual logical "limit" due to server capacity and programming limits was set at ~255 neighborhoods per racial area.

    I'd be shocked to hear that any server was even close to this as the housing census thread I assisted in at the time on my server did not even come close to 1/4 of that number being completely bought out, IIRC.
    Ok, The how to explain woes of Brandyvine? Of not having any more new neighbourhoods in several racial neighbourhoods for a lot of time now?

    Im not 100% sure but Vilja wasnt ever been named into top5 most populated servers, thus it does have enough free space in every racial neigbourhood, like your research proved. If one goes to Brandyvine server housing area and checks neighbourhood list, it appears a lot longer that in Crickhollow. granted, i didnt count exactly how many there was, but on first glance it was at least two-three times longer...
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  4. #54
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    Feb 2007
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    The trouble is that, at least in most cases, it's going to take a whole lot more than "repossessing" vacant houses in order to breathe some life back into neighborhoods. While this is a different issue all together, it boils down to the fact that there's really no reason to hang around in a neighborhood. There's no stables, the port has a obnoxiously long cooldown, and the only thing you can gain from going there is picking up some stuff from storage. Even that last part has been reduced in importance with shared storage, combined with how much easier it is just to make a bank alt. I mean, bank alts can move - your house can't.

    If Turbine really wanted to breathe life into the neighborhoods, they'd make them have a lot more relevance to the game. Adding crafting stations would be a start, some kind of daily quest picked up by the town crier for a tempting reward, or even some kind of festival-like activity one can do. Putting a major travel hub in each neighborhood would make it even more tempting for people to spend more time in the neighborhoods.

    But right now, if they can't even do the easiest solution - even if it is a band-aid, then there's not much of a point in freeing up the "abandoned" houses. Because even if every house was occupied by an active account, the neighborhoods would be, with very few exceptions, still just as dead.



    The trouble is, it's not a finite resource - at least in the literal sense of the word. It's merely an arbitrary limit placed so they don't have to worry about the storage requirements getting out of hand - or having to come up with more names than they need. They bumped the limit once when it was needed, and they'll do it again, from the looks of things, within the year.
    That's the thing: why spend the resources kicking people out (and adding another reason for them to not come back, or worse, REGRET coming back?) when you can make it meaningful and enjoyable with more effort? And maybe make it another reason to return? Alot of other MMOs really stink @ housing. I happen to be playing one of them right now, and as much fun as my 6 unique spaceships are, upgrading from Tier 5 beam generators to a shiny purple for that extra 1 shot a second isn't the same gameplay experience as decorating a hobbit hole.

    This is the niche market Turbine should be tap-dancing to offer, ESPECIALLY when houses offer very little in-game benefit. I could see why the didn't before, but now they could drop half of it in the store, and people would pay RL bucks for it. I'd pay as much for this over that that buggy dragioch raid, hell I'd pay 3x as much - b/c I'd enjoy it so much more than something on a weekly timer.
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  5. #55

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    All these arguments over foreclosures, evictions, escrow are missing the main point. Owning a house is an offered game option and should be available to each player who chooses to save up and go for it, availability of the house shouldnt even be a part of the process. While housing 'neighborhoods' seemed like a great idea it is not working and should be abandoned to perhaps individual instances per player. Social aspects of housing can then be handled via open or exclusive invites like the instance finder.

  6. #56

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    That's the thing: why spend the resources kicking people out (and adding another reason for them to not come back, or worse, REGRET coming back?) when you can make it meaningful and enjoyable with more effort? And maybe make it another reason to return? Alot of other MMOs really stink @ housing. I happen to be playing one of them right now, and as much fun as my 6 unique spaceships are, upgrading from Tier 5 beam generators to a shiny purple for that extra 1 shot a second isn't the same gameplay experience as decorating a hobbit hole.

    This is the niche market Turbine should be tap-dancing to offer, ESPECIALLY when houses offer very little in-game benefit. I could see why the didn't before, but now they could drop half of it in the store, and people would pay RL bucks for it. I'd pay as much for this over that that buggy dragioch raid, hell I'd pay 3x as much - b/c I'd enjoy it so much more than something on a weekly timer.
    I'm guessing it just simply boils down to too few devs, and too many things that are a higher priority. There have been far, far too many things they've introduced and have had to just let stagnate or die - and they don't seem to be showing any sign of turning that around. It's really sad to see so many great ideas never reach their potential - but; I guess we should at least be thankful that the core game is finally seeing SoA caliber attention/updates again. Maybe it's just a sign of what's to come, and they finally will get enough manpower to give all these systems a look-over again. At least one can hope....
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  7. #57
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    The trouble is that, at least in most cases, it's going to take a whole lot more than "repossessing" vacant houses in order to breathe some life back into neighborhoods. While this is a different issue all together, it boils down to the fact that there's really no reason to hang around in a neighborhood.
    That's certainly true, but there are a couple of other reasons too:

    • Turbine doesn't want to "breathe some life back into neighborhoods". If neighborhoods are attractive places to hang out, providing important services and such, it will serve to disperse the player population away from the current social hubs, making it even harder to interact with others - and making the game feel more empty to newer players.
    • The math means that very few neighborhoods would have much "life" in them anyway. They didn't have much life in them even when they were new and everyone was excited about them. There are only 26 individual houses per neighborhood, and they're spread out. Even if you play during peak hours, there will (on average) be maybe just 1-3 of your neighbors who are on when you are - even if your neighborhood has 100% active players in it. They're not likely to be in your neighborhood when you are, but even if they are... they'll probably be out of sight. Or inside their own house.
    In 4+ years, I've seen a grand total of maybe 6 people in my neighborhood, not counting when I brought a friend with me. 6. None at all in the past year. Clearing out the deadwood simply isn't going to have much of an impact on that. So I might see 3 people in the next year.

    If they had some sort of gathering spot inside each neighborhood which was shared across all neighborhoods for that racial type, maybe that could help make them feel a bit more "alive". Or if they were to introduce some tools for player-run events in neighborhoods, people might occasionally be seen in your neighborhood in numbers greater than "1" (or "0").

    Khafar

  8. #58

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stilgaard View Post
    I'm sure your forum-search-fu is much better than most but I do seem to remember there was much diiscussion over a year ago that the actual logical "limit" due to server capacity and programming limits was set at ~255 neighborhoods per racial area.

    I'd be shocked to hear that any server was even close to this as the housing census thread I assisted in at the time on my server did not even come close to 1/4 of that number being completely bought out, IIRC.
    Maybe I was unclear in my previous post, I went to the bree-land housing vendor on Brandywine server and counted(1,2,3 get to ten and make a hash mark) there are 325 neighborhoods. Of those 325 there are no personal houses for sale, standard or deluxe. That was last week, if we were not at max a new one would spawn after server maintenance Monday. Checked, just rechecked same numbers. Therefore, logically. we have hit the per server max.
    My opinion is houses should be returned to the market after a year of non-payment but give the owner a token good for one house of similar type (standard or deluxe) in their escrow account (still permanent). Turbine then doesn't have to open new neighborhoods, remember server memory=money. People can move closer to friends and kinmates. Those returning to game that didn't arrange a friend or kinmate to pay their upkeep lose nothing except the time to pick out a new home. Everyone's happy except the trolls.

  9. #59
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    For me and Honestly for Turbine as well IMO it boils down to one important factor.
    Who is more important current Paying Playing Customers that is annual VIP and on occasion buys TP points in store......
    Or a phantom may return some day and play the game again.

    Seems simple to me I wuld rather risk annoying someone who has a 50/50 chance of comeing back
    rather then a 100% chance of annoying a loyal paying currently Paying customer.
    Unfortunetly this is one time Turbine should think with the wallet mentality as it will alos allow current
    players to enjoy another aspect of the game.

  10. #60
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    The trouble is, it's not a finite resource - at least in the literal sense of the word. It's merely an arbitrary limit placed so they don't have to worry about the storage requirements getting out of hand - or having to come up with more names than they need. They bumped the limit once when it was needed, and they'll do it again, from the looks of things, within the year.
    Say what? Whether the limit is one picked arbitrarily or not, how is the number of neighborhoods ever *not* going to be finite? Even if a random name generator was set up to name neighborhoods, there is only a finite amount of time, disk space, address space, and memory available. No matter what you do, the number of neighborhoods is going to countable, and--thus--finite. This is true even if Turbine could, in either theory or practice, create one neighborhood in each housing area for every character ever created in LoTR. The visible universe is finite, so how can the number of neighborhoods in LoTR NOT be finite?

    Or are you using some definition of "finite" that I'm not familiar with, one meaning "unlimited"?

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer

  11. #61
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    still, even if you take an extended break from the game, how long does it really take to log in long enough to pay rent once in a while?

    Of course, I can understand your point of view--after all, I tend to shy away from the kins that have requirements for frequency of play for their members. I understand they want to be active kins, but I have a busy life and sometimes I just want a break. So I can see your point clearly.

    However, I also see the other point. My first characters were on Brandywine, but when I finally leveled up enough to buy a house, I wanted one in Bree but found absolutely none available--I think I was looking for standard houses at the time. I had to go to Michel Delving to get my house. I haven't checked lately to see if anything has opened up, so I can't speak for anything going on recently. Now I love my little house in the Shire and won't give it up because I love it's location, even though its a standard house and I would like to have the extra storage that you get with a deluxe house; however, a house in Bree really makes more sense for my characters, as its a human and not a hobbit. I recently started a toon on dwarrowdelf and ran into the opposite problem--I was able to find a lot of deluxe houses in Bree but a smaller number of standard ones! thank goodness I was after deluxe ones there!

    the thing is, when you wander these neighborhoods, there are a lot of them locked, and leaving the server tied up indefinitely for the sake of old, inactive players takes away an element of the game for your new, active players--it can be frustrating for someone who has just started the game to save up their money but be unable to buy a house because the neighborhoods are all full, especially when you know that many of those houses are owned by players who haven't been on the game in several months. It's a hard thing, trying to balance and be fair to both crowds, but I wish they could find a way to do it.

  12. #62
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Make it 2 years for paying players and 6 months for free ones, and I think that would be reasonable. I also think it would almost instantly free up at least half the houses across the entire game (with more coming available each month afterwords).

    When someone is "evicted" in this manner, just give paying customers a token that lets them buy the same size house in a different neighborhood. Free players are on their own (but could still recover their stuff from escrow).

    Khafar
    The game has been around long enough now that I'd be ok with that.
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  13. #63
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Perhaps we could create a forum thread specificly for homes, one where people could occasionaly post what's for sale in the different homestead on the different servers. I know it would take effort but I'm willing to be a part of it since I go to my home in my Neighborhood often. It takes nothing to ride the hood to check for signs. It would be the Community thing to do
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  14. #64

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    That's certainly true, but there are a couple of other reasons too:

    • Turbine doesn't want to "breathe some life back into neighborhoods". If neighborhoods are attractive places to hang out, providing important services and such, it will serve to disperse the player population away from the current social hubs, making it even harder to interact with others - and making the game feel more empty to newer players.
    • The math means that very few neighborhoods would have much "life" in them anyway. They didn't have much life in them even when they were new and everyone was excited about them. There are only 26 individual houses per neighborhood, and they're spread out. Even if you play during peak hours, there will (on average) be maybe just 1-3 of your neighbors who are on when you are - even if your neighborhood has 100% active players in it. They're not likely to be in your neighborhood when you are, but even if they are... they'll probably be out of sight. Or inside their own house.

    In 4+ years, I've seen a grand total of maybe 6 people in my neighborhood, not counting when I brought a friend with me. 6. None at all in the past year. Clearing out the deadwood simply isn't going to have much of an impact on that. So I might see 3 people in the next year.

    If they had some sort of gathering spot inside each neighborhood which was shared across all neighborhoods for that racial type, maybe that could help make them feel a bit more "alive". Or if they were to introduce some tools for player-run events in neighborhoods, people might occasionally be seen in your neighborhood in numbers greater than "1" (or "0").

    Khafar
    For all intents and purposes, Turbine seems quite happy to just let new characters be the ones that breathe life into areas like Bree. There's really been no focus or attempt to make Bree a desired or required location for anybody but those from 1-50. Compare that to the likes of Blizzard, who has basically made the two main faction cities (Orgrimar and Stormwind) necessary for nearly all levels - because that's the only places were you can get certain services - not to mention the location for the current expansion's portal(s). Turbine seems happy enough just to let higher level players continue to hang out in 21st, OG, or Lagtrev, by making everything accessible in these areas. Mind you, not that I'm complaining about the convenience - but it is a terrible way to keep things lively in a common location.

    But as far as housing neighborhoods go, if they can make a place where all levels are likely to hang out - plus have the advantage of an instanced area to limit the number, it could be a pretty convenient and lively place again (or, rather for the first time since they were introduced). And really, it doesn't matter where this happens - whether this be people all in the housing neighborhoods, or all in Bree, the result is still the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Say what? Whether the limit is one picked arbitrarily or not, how is the number of neighborhoods ever *not* going to be finite? Even if a random name generator was set up to name neighborhoods, there is only a finite amount of time, disk space, address space, and memory available. No matter what you do, the number of neighborhoods is going to countable, and--thus--finite. This is true even if Turbine could, in either theory or practice, create one neighborhood in each housing area for every character ever created in LoTR. The visible universe is finite, so how can the number of neighborhoods in LoTR NOT be finite?

    Or are you using some definition of "finite" that I'm not familiar with, one meaning "unlimited"?

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer
    Let's put it this way: Say a roommate brings home $10 worth of food. Now, technically that food is a finite resource, but it's not even worth mentioning, because the real finite resource that's important is how much money the roommate has. So unless and until that roommate divulges what the limit of that finite resource is, it's impossible to say whether that $10 worth of food is the limit, or whether it's just a limit until the roommate goes to the store again.

    I'm just saying that it sounded as if you were saying that the current number of neighborhoods is the absolute limit - when it's more than possible that Turbine just needs to get around to "go to the store" and simply add more neighborhoods. If however, that actually is the limit, then that's a spectacular lack of foresight on behalf of Turbine.
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  15. #65
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Let's put it this way: Say a roommate brings home $10 worth of food. Now, technically that food is a finite resource, but it's not even worth mentioning, because the real finite resource that's important is how much money the roommate has. So unless and until that roommate divulges what the limit of that finite resource is, it's impossible to say whether that $10 worth of food is the limit, or whether it's just a limit until the roommate goes to the store again.
    Okay..... I see what you're thinking. You are comparing what is being used--the $10 to buy groceries--against total resources. Sorry...that's not what "finite" means. You need to compare "finite" to "infinite". That is, no matter what you do in the real world, there is a limit. It may be significantly larger that what you have allocated at a given time, but the limits are there.

    Consider this... The original IBM PC could address 640K of memory--a hard limit. Thus the addressable memory was finite. If a given machine only had 128K of memory, that memory space was also finite, but could be expanded, though no expansion could exceed 640K. All of those values for memory are finite.

    If you have 32 bit addresses, you can address about 4GB, a much larger, but still finite amount of memory.

    If you have 64 bit addresses the total addressable memory is more than it is economically practical to install in a real machine...but both the practical limit and the theoretical addressable limit are still finite.

    A multi-petabyte storage array is very large...but still finite.

    I'm just saying that it sounded as if you were saying that the current number of neighborhoods is the absolute limit - when it's more than possible that Turbine just needs to get around to "go to the store" and simply add more neighborhoods. If however, that actually is the limit, then that's a spectacular lack of foresight on behalf of Turbine.
    I have said nothing about what the absolute limit is...only that there is one. Turbine may not actually know. Someone would have to sit down, check what the row count limits are for the relevant database table(s) are as well as the amount of disk space that is addressable to answer that question.

    When Turbine set the limit as 250 neighborhoods of each type, it was large enough to accommodate the needs of the existing player base. Between the increase in players and the churn generated by f2p, that number is no longer adequate--unless some scheme is put in place to determine which houses are truly never going to be used by their current owners and can be put back on the market for reallocation.

    Whether or not that will mean there are enough houses or not is an interesting question, but in either case, the number is *always* going to be finite...no matter how much in the way of real resources are allocated to housing.

    We are, after all, dealing with finite hardware, over a finite time span, on a finite planet.

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer

  16. #66

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Okay..... I see what you're thinking. You are comparing what is being used--the $10 to buy groceries--against total resources. Sorry...that's not what "finite" means. You need to compare "finite" to "infinite". That is, no matter what you do in the real world, there is a limit. It may be significantly larger that what you have allocated at a given time, but the limits are there.

    Consider this... The original IBM PC could address 640K of memory--a hard limit. Thus the addressable memory was finite. If a given machine only had 128K of memory, that memory space was also finite, but could be expanded, though no expansion could exceed 640K. All of those values for memory are finite.

    If you have 32 bit addresses, you can address about 4GB, a much larger, but still finite amount of memory.

    If you have 64 bit addresses the total addressable memory is more than it is economically practical to install in a real machine...but both the practical limit and the theoretical addressable limit are still finite.

    A multi-petabyte storage array is very large...but still finite.



    I have said nothing about what the absolute limit is...only that there is one. Turbine may not actually know. Someone would have to sit down, check what the row count limits are for the relevant database table(s) are as well as the amount of disk space that is addressable to answer that question.

    When Turbine set the limit as 250 neighborhoods of each type, it was large enough to accommodate the needs of the existing player base. Between the increase in players and the churn generated by f2p, that number is no longer adequate--unless some scheme is put in place to determine which houses are truly never going to be used by their current owners and can be put back on the market for reallocation.

    Whether or not that will mean there are enough houses or not is an interesting question, but in either case, the number is *always* going to be finite...no matter how much in the way of real resources are allocated to housing.

    We are, after all, dealing with finite hardware, over a finite time span, on a finite planet.

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer
    Then, for the most part I misunderstood your intent of your post - it seemed that you were trying to say that the maximum number of neighborhoods had been reached, and there was no way of increasing that limit.

    However, just for purposes of discussion, there comes a point where a finite number changes enough where effectively it might as well be infinite. It's one thing to compare this to older systems before the real PC boom - where concepts such as basic memory and high memory were important to understand. Even those playing games in DOS back then had to understand this concept. However, with regards to this game, memory really shouldn't be much of a factor - at least, when it comes to neighborhoods. There's no reason why 500 neighborhoods should use any more memory than 250 - except for maybe populating the neighborhood list in the first place.

    Other than the actual game code possibly enforcing some kind of limit - like say, the structure for an instance only allocates a single byte for an instance ID, leaving it with a hard-coded max number of 255 (256 if you include an ID of 0), the only real limitation is storage - and face it, that's not really much of a limitation. Every time a hard drive has to be replaced, you're probably increasing storage for that particular unit by 5 times or more. However, it is wise for every company to operate in a state of control - by placing an arbitrary limit on the number of neighborhoods, they can make an estimate of how much storage they need, as well as prevent a situation where neighborhoods are being created because players want a particular house - without filling up existing ones first. While memory requirements shouldn't be effected by the number of neighborhoods, storage certainly would be.
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  17. #67
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    Jun 2007
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    1,264

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Ya know what, disregard, I'm an idiot and went and counted available neighborhoods with something for sale rather than the ones you can actually enter...
    Last edited by Stilgaard; Feb 09 2012 at 08:56 AM.
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  18. #68
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Dude your heart is in the right place! LOL!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stilgaard View Post
    Ya know what, disregard, I'm an idiot and went and counted available neighborhoods with something for sale rather than the ones you can actually enter...
    [URL="http://profile.xfire.com/truevoiceman"][IMG]http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/0/truevoiceman.png[/IMG][/URL]

  19. #69
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    Mar 2007
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    10,510

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Then, for the most part I misunderstood your intent of your post - it seemed that you were trying to say that the maximum number of neighborhoods had been reached, and there was no way of increasing that limit.
    There is evidence that Turbine has increased the limit, at least on one server in one type, from 250 (the original limit) to 325.

    In order to increase such limits, given the nature of the neighborhoods, Turbine has to come up with *names* for each--potential--new neighborhood. That takes "people time", and that's expensive.

    I expect that, over time, they will raise the limit, but I don't expect them to do so until the problem becomes acute.

    However, just for purposes of discussion, there comes a point where a finite number changes enough where effectively it might as well be infinite. It's one thing to compare this to older systems before the real PC boom - where concepts such as basic memory and high memory were important to understand. Even those playing games in DOS back then had to understand this concept. However, with regards to this game, memory really shouldn't be much of a factor - at least, when it comes to neighborhoods. There's no reason why 500 neighborhoods should use any more memory than 250 - except for maybe populating the neighborhood list in the first place.
    Having enough real memory is *still* an issue on PCs. Manufacturers tend to low-ball memory to keep prices down and hope that the people that buy the machines will upgrade later, and not count the upgrade cost as part of the package. That's why there is a traditional crash in memory prices in February...when the retailers discover that the people that bought machines for Christmas fail to buy more memory because they don't realize that the poor performance they're getting is because the machine has too little memory to perform well.

    Haven't you seen the threads where someone complains about massive lag in LoTRO and it turns out they've barely got enough RAM to support the OS, let alone handle the application?

    Other than the actual game code possibly enforcing some kind of limit - like say, the structure for an instance only allocates a single byte for an instance ID, leaving it with a hard-coded max number of 255 (256 if you include an ID of 0), the only real limitation is storage - and face it, that's not really much of a limitation. Every time a hard drive has to be replaced, you're probably increasing storage for that particular unit by 5 times or more. However, it is wise for every company to operate in a state of control - by placing an arbitrary limit on the number of neighborhoods, they can make an estimate of how much storage they need, as well as prevent a situation where neighborhoods are being created because players want a particular house - without filling up existing ones first. While memory requirements shouldn't be effected by the number of neighborhoods, storage certainly would be.
    There is the memory footprint on the server, the storage footprint on bulk storage, and the performance factors in the database engine. Turbine has to juggle all three.

    Now I'll grant you that the difference between 250 housing instances and 500 housing instance isn't going to be a disk space issue and it's not going to make the database engine notice the load difference, but it *might* make a difference to the servers that have enough neighborhood resources loaded.

    And, yes, the finite limit on neighborhoods could be large enough (taking all else into consideration) that it would not be a constraint on the players for picking a house. But it will still be finite.

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer

  20. #70

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    There is evidence that Turbine has increased the limit, at least on one server in one type, from 250 (the original limit) to 325.

    In order to increase such limits, given the nature of the neighborhoods, Turbine has to come up with *names* for each--potential--new neighborhood. That takes "people time", and that's expensive.

    I expect that, over time, they will raise the limit, but I don't expect them to do so until the problem becomes acute.



    Having enough real memory is *still* an issue on PCs. Manufacturers tend to low-ball memory to keep prices down and hope that the people that buy the machines will upgrade later, and not count the upgrade cost as part of the package. That's why there is a traditional crash in memory prices in February...when the retailers discover that the people that bought machines for Christmas fail to buy more memory because they don't realize that the poor performance they're getting is because the machine has too little memory to perform well.

    Haven't you seen the threads where someone complains about massive lag in LoTRO and it turns out they've barely got enough RAM to support the OS, let alone handle the application?



    There is the memory footprint on the server, the storage footprint on bulk storage, and the performance factors in the database engine. Turbine has to juggle all three.

    Now I'll grant you that the difference between 250 housing instances and 500 housing instance isn't going to be a disk space issue and it's not going to make the database engine notice the load difference, but it *might* make a difference to the servers that have enough neighborhood resources loaded.

    And, yes, the finite limit on neighborhoods could be large enough (taking all else into consideration) that it would not be a constraint on the players for picking a house. But it will still be finite.

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer
    Don't forget that on the server end, it's all about IDs, locations and numbers. All the assets are client side, which yes - requires more gaming -related resources, like GPU memory, a good drive speed, and of course, an adequate CPU.

    Pure Memory, as in RAM, and with the exception of that RAM's speed, is really getting more attention than it should for this game. The reason of course is that LotRO is a 32-bit app, meaning that it can really only recognize about 3.2gb total, but will effectively cap out at 2.5gb. Right now, for a typical gaming system, 4gb is pretty much the minimum, but in most cases, and unless you're runnning a lot of background stuff or actually have 64-bit, memory intensive apps, that 4gb is also the maximum. There are some gamers who make it a mission to load their PC up with RAM - boasting 16gb or more - and in very very few situations is even 1/4 of that memory actually used.
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  21. #71

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    I'd say its probably a good idea to bring i back for the bigger servers, no harm in removing people who are at 1 year+ absent ...
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d000000009cef/signature.png]Unknown[/charsig]

  22. #72
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    Mar 2007
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Don't forget that on the server end, it's all about IDs, locations and numbers. All the assets are client side, which yes - requires more gaming -related resources, like GPU memory, a good drive speed, and of course, an adequate CPU.
    True, but the server code doesn't care about the PC. The servers could send things down to a mis-configured PC and bring the PC to its knees. Server doesn't care.

    Pure Memory, as in RAM, and with the exception of that RAM's speed, is really getting more attention than it should for this game. The reason of course is that LotRO is a 32-bit app, meaning that it can really only recognize about 3.2gb total, but will effectively cap out at 2.5gb. Right now, for a typical gaming system, 4gb is pretty much the minimum, but in most cases, and unless you're runnning a lot of background stuff or actually have 64-bit, memory intensive apps, that 4gb is also the maximum. There are some gamers who make it a mission to load their PC up with RAM - boasting 16gb or more - and in very very few situations is even 1/4 of that memory actually used.
    You are making a questionable assumption. Sure--common systems now come with 6-8GB of RAM and *gaming* rigs come with a lot more, but LoTRO, like most games isn't aimed at new machines, let alone new gaming rigs. LoTRO is, after all, trying to attract "casual" players. Such players are not only not going to have the latest and greatest systems, but they may very well have quite old, slow, small systems. I was putting 2GB of RAM in XP systems before Vista ever came on the scene--when many XP systems came 256MB...or less. Some of those machines are still out there. I used to run Win98SE with 512MB...the max it could handle with getting excessively clever. My 10 year old Linux system (dual Opteron 240s, 3x36GB Raptors) has 2GB of ECC DRAM, which was a lot when I built that system.

    Companies design games to be runnable on as little hardware as they can specifically in order to cut off as few people as possible. Yula has cited quiting AC1 when they revamped the game and raised the minimum system spec. Turbine has, undoubtedly learned from that by seeing how many people left rather than spend the money to upgrade.

    The short point is: People buy games to run on the machines they have (and, to be blunt, most of those machines are junk). With very few exceptions, they do not buy machines and then go looking for games that take full advantage of their hardware.

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer

  23. #73
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    Feb 2007
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    12,677

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    For all intents and purposes, Turbine seems quite happy to just let new characters be the ones that breathe life into areas like Bree.
    New characters, true. Not necessarily new players. All of my alts have hung out in lowbie social hubs, along with lots of other vets playing alts, new players, etc. And I've spent at least an order of magnitude more time playing my alts than I've spent playing my level-capped characters. I don't know how "normal" that is, but Turbine certainly does.

    What people in these threads typically ask for is to put crafting stations in their houses, add more vendors and services to each neighborhood, etc. That would be a really bad idea, IMO... it would drain the current lowbie social hubs of many of the vets in the game. My house is literally 10 seconds from the vendor area in my neighborhood, and if I could just pop back there to sell stuff, restock, deal with LIs, check AH sales, craft etc... I wouldn't bother going anywhere else, on any character. I'd usually be the only one there, but hey, the convenience would be pretty nice.

    Offering a common market shared across ALL neighborhoods in the game would be a different story of course. Might be so popular that it would be quite laggy . But there would be very few new players seen there, and places like Bree or Thorin's Hall would definitely be emptier.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Feb 09 2012 at 07:20 PM.

  24. #74
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    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Lets get this Topic back on track......
    We want more Houseing we want better housing there is no reason why Turbine Can't reverse the previous bad decision and kick the dead beats that have not logged on in over a year out of the Houses.
    New active players who are currently playing and paying to support the game should be able to participate in all aspects of the game. We should not be prevented from doing so by absent players wo in all likely hood will never return. We should not be punished for thier inactivity and Turbines missed plased bleeding heart liberlism.

    Turbine cut the dead weight Lose Let you current players who are paying to support you have first claim to the Available housing. Heck Just cutting the former codemaster/EU players out that failed to migrate would help.
    Please Turbine do somethingwe are not asking for major revamps although it would be nice. We really Just want reall access to what you already say you Provide and since we pay for it we deserve it.

    Turbine this is a no brainer your not going to annoy your current customers that log in and pay thier upkeep and your going to make many current paying customers that can't get housing happy. Lets do something rather hten sitting on your hands and turning a blind eye to this topic.

  25. #75
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    Feb 2007
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    12,677

    Re: New Neighbourhoods or dismissing "abandoned" houses...

    Quote Originally Posted by NickStern View Post
    We want more Houseing we want better housing there is no reason why Turbine Can't reverse the previous bad decision and kick the dead beats that have not logged on in over a year out of the Houses.
    Make it 2 . Seriously, their reason for keeping them wasn't bad (as long as there were houses available), and they don't need to swing that pendulum all the way from "forever" back to just 12 months in order to achieve a reasonable goal.

    Of the houses that are abandoned, I'd bet somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 have actually been abandoned for more than 2 years. If true (and only Turbine knows for sure), that would mean 1/2 to 2/3 of all existing houses would open up immediately. That's plenty. My neighborhood would probably wind up with a dozen empty houses, ready for purchase. Yours would too. So would the hundreds of others in the game for each race. Thousands of houses, available the moment the servers come up after that patch. Probably at least 100 more opening every month after that.

    The game is not growing at a pace that requires more aggressive "house cleaning" than that, IMO, and why not leave the house for those who may come back as long as there's room? I've come back to games after 2 years before. I might come back to this one after a year or two too. Having my house to come back to would be a big plus, especially since I was told I'd be able to keep it forever before I left.

    Khafar

 

 
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