We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 41
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    326

    Heralds are shockingly bad...

    ... particularly in Battle For Erebor.

    They die all the time to catapults, inferno, npc AoE etc.

    No where safe to put them. You can't use their DPS because they just die to add AoE or make balancing bosses for Blood Brothers impossible.

    ... particularly in Helegrod, as they get the eye from both Thorog and Zaudru, and die to aoe in basically everything (giants, drakes and so on)

    ... particularly in Iobars Peak, where they die to aoe (bosses are particularly bad for this)

    Bring back banners or fix heralds please.

    The above examples are not exhaustive by a long way. Just some of my annoyance over the last few weeks.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Second star to the right and straight until morning... til you reach Neverland...
    Posts
    1,965

    Post Squishy Herald is Squishy

    Hence the reason my kinmate named his heralds, AliveOnlyTemporarily, and DeadAgain. (Forgot the third.)
    [FONT=comic sans ms][SIZE=1][COLOR=indigo][B][COLOR=#ff0000]!<3?![/COLOR][COLOR=darkorchid]Wargs Rule![/COLOR][/B][COLOR=red][B]!?<3! [/B][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#4169e1]But only because we have no playable feline races.[/COLOR][/I][/COLOR]
    [/SIZE][/FONT][RIGHT][CENTER][FONT=comic sans ms][SIZE=1][COLOR=plum]???s6u!?? 3?!?o?@? ?w ?o m3? @ 3?@ 3s3??[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][FONT=comic sans ms][SIZE=1][COLOR=plum][B][I][COLOR=magenta]*s6u!s*[/COLOR] [/I][/B][/COLOR][B][COLOR=plum]¡[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=plum]?w ?o[/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] [COLOR=red]?[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=plum]s3!6?@M pu@ 's3ss3??s!w-3?ol 's3s?l3[/COLOR][B][COLOR=red]?[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER]
    [FONT=comic sans ms][SIZE=1]
    [COLOR=royalblue][COLOR=lightblue][COLOR=magenta]Founder & Altoholic:[/COLOR] playing wargies and loremistresses since 2006 SoA beta.[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=darkorange]*Jingle Jangle!*
    [U][COLOR=#ed2669]A "lifetime" of play on: [B]Elendilmir (RIP)[/B], Crick, Landy, & more. [/COLOR][/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/RIGHT]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,898
    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    ... particularly in Battle For Erebor.

    They die all the time to catapults, inferno, npc AoE etc.

    No where safe to put them. You can't use their DPS because they just die to add AoE or make balancing bosses for Blood Brothers impossible.

    ... particularly in Helegrod, as they get the eye from both Thorog and Zaudru, and die to aoe in basically everything (giants, drakes and so on)

    ... particularly in Iobars Peak, where they die to aoe (bosses are particularly bad for this)

    Bring back banners or fix heralds please.

    The above examples are not exhaustive by a long way. Just some of my annoyance over the last few weeks.
    Are you noticing heralds as generally weak to tactical damage,physical damage, or both?

    Do you have any suggestions to improve heralds?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    2,350
    id say make pets immune to AoE as they are to environmental dmg. cant see how this would ever be over-powered, since they hit like... air

    in BfE, they should be immune to fire and catapults... wondering if that is a bug. arent those environmental?


    most of the heavy AoE fights, we can leave them off to the side. I did a Barrow-Downs Survival the other day and just left my herlad camped near the center. got out of range a couple times, but kept her out of the heavy AoE. worked well enough.


    but yea, i agree. they need some help.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Are you noticing heralds as generally weak to tactical damage,physical damage, or both?

    Do you have any suggestions to improve heralds?
    Both.

    And yes, I have made several suggestions on another thread (as you should be well aware) but to repeat a few suggestions:

    1. Give up on them and bring back banners (dont remove the skills, people who really want them can keep using them if they like).

    2. Make a version of the herald that does no damage, but also takes no damage, effectively a walking banner (oathbreaker cosmetic appearance would suit this well IMHO).

    3. Massively increase the mitigations, ICMR and damage of the existing herald, until it reaches the effectiveness of a LM pet for example.

    4. Make them effectively immune to ALL environmental damage, and a lesser improvement along the lines of option 3.

    My preferred option is #2 but I think option #1 would require less resources.

    In addenda to the issues I raised earlier

    ... when there are certain skills that trigger based on the number of targets around (EG distributed damage effects) where it is an advantage or a disadvantage to have more effective "targets". In one case the herald allows a boss to trigger a distributed skill which it does not use if there is only 1 target in range (the tank). In this situation the herald is again a disadvantage, because if you happen to have it near the boss it can result in 1-shoting a top tier equiped Guardian even if everything else is going to plan.

    ... When you dismount unless your herald is on passive, he runs off across the map aggroing something that lost interest about 2 minutes ago.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,898
    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    3. Massively increase the mitigations, ICMR and damage of the existing herald, until it reaches the effectiveness of a LM pet for example.
    I think this highlights the main problem with heralds. We expect them to at least be as effective as LM pets, but similar in effectiveness to a bannerguard skirmish soldier because of the superficial appearance of both.

    I strongly suspect the herald armor was a crucial part of the herald, and something that either needs to be added to the banners, or rolled into the class itself (I'm leaning toward the latter on this one).

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    4. Make them effectively immune to ALL environmental damage, and a lesser improvement along the lines of option 3.
    Would there be any unintended side effects from this?

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    ... when there are certain skills that trigger based on the number of targets around (EG distributed damage effects) where it is an advantage or a disadvantage to have more effective "targets". In one case the herald allows a boss to trigger a distributed skill which it does not use if there is only 1 target in range (the tank). In this situation the herald is again a disadvantage, because if you happen to have it near the boss it can result in 1-shoting a top tier equiped Guardian even if everything else is going to plan.
    We really should follow the precedence set by the LM pets here. Whatever they do, we do it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    ... When you dismount unless your herald is on passive, he runs off across the map aggroing something that lost interest about 2 minutes ago.
    Mounting should cause the herald/archer to completely dump their aggro table, and anything else should be /bug'd as it's unexpected behavior.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,780
    Don't forget, turbine laid off Rockx while he was working on the new herald skills, they likely never let him finish the work, or have assigned the duty to someone new.
    LvL 100s: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Champ, Guardian, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Rune-Keeper
    LvL 85: Warden, Minstrel
    All my forum posts are my opinions and may not even be that. Also On Twitter: @leixicon

  8. #8
    I don't like pets in general, but, if we are forced to have one, it should be immune to aoe and it's stats should depend on the caster stats(health, damage, mitigation and so on).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,898
    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    Don't forget, turbine laid off Rockx while he was working on the new herald skills, they likely never let him finish the work, or have assigned the duty to someone new.
    Why not create completely new skills, and start hashing out where they should integrate into the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    I don't like pets in general, but, if we are forced to have one, it should be immune to aoe and it's stats should depend on the caster stats(health, damage, mitigation and so on).
    While I don't agree that the archer should match our stats, the heralds should use our exact stats for all of their base stats, then let maths determine DPS and other things.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I think this highlights the main problem with heralds. We expect them to at least be as effective as LM pets, but similar in effectiveness to a bannerguard skirmish soldier because of the superficial appearance of both.

    I strongly suspect the herald armor was a crucial part of the herald, and something that either needs to be added to the banners, or rolled into the class itself (I'm leaning toward the latter on this one).
    Meh, the herald is and always has been half-finished. It's an attempt to make us a pet class, but does nothing to come close to the flexibility or power their pets offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Would there be any unintended side effects from this?
    Honestly it should be irrelevant. The pet is effectively part of our characters contribution to the raid, if the character dies all pets are autodismissed anyway. So there is no need for the pet to be additionally vulnerable to environmental stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    We really should follow the precedence set by the LM pets here. Whatever they do, we do it too.
    LM pets interact directly with the target to be "used" (EG a bear can tank, lynx dps, bog-lurker ranged DPS/debuff). A Herald is a walking buffstick and everything else they does is so marginal as to be irrelevant - a skill with a 25% chance of a 3s stun (all bosses are immune to stun anyway), a skill with a bit less pathetic damage from the usual autoattack, and a sacrificial heal that costs more than it restores.



    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Mounting should cause the herald/archer to completely dump their aggro table, and anything else should be /bug'd as it's unexpected behavior.
    Good idea. Should probably bug heralds still doing common damage and dying to enviro damage while we are at it. I will do next time.



    As an aside, is anyone apart from current/former members of the players council actually happy with heralds? If so, why?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,898
    Maybe a better place to start is having a base set of abilities with the herald, and having traits have the ability to overwrite the skills?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Province of America's France
    Posts
    4,027
    Quote Originally Posted by Griffy View Post
    Hence the reason my kinmate named his heralds, AliveOnlyTemporarily, and DeadAgain. (Forgot the third.)

    I am very unoriginal on pet name, so I they are all Kennys.
    .. and my skirmish soldier is named as a tribute to one of my old friend's toon : nathaniel !


    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Mounting should cause the herald/archer to completely dump their aggro table, and anything else should be /bug'd as it's unexpected behavior.
    I thought the pet disappear when you put horse pants ?? or is it only with the warhorsepants ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    Don't forget, turbine laid off Rockx while he was working on the new herald skills, they likely never let him finish the work, or have assigned the duty to someone new.
    I've been out of the carbonite only recently (hiatus/ in-out the game for the last 3 years and still heavily share may few gaming hours with DDO and GW2 as well).. Really Rockx is out .. that's sad he was a nice guy..

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    I don't like pets in general, but, if we are forced to have one, it should be immune to aoe and it's stats should depend on the caster stats(health, damage, mitigation and so on).
    I'm not a pet person too, but if I'm stuck with one I would rather have him pimped or something cause at the moment the only use I got from him is to unlock the brother skills while soloings.. and maybe tank 1 guy while i kill the 8 others..

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Maybe a better place to start is having a base set of abilities with the herald, and having traits have the ability to overwrite the skills?
    For all pets (LM and captain), Heaven would be to have something like the skirmish soldier but meh.. it will not happen.
    Last edited by MorningStarSE; May 15 2014 at 10:17 AM.
    [COLOR=#008080]If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
    [/COLOR]

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Watertown, MA
    Posts
    2,903
    Heralds no longer get de-summoned when you mount up, on either a normal horse or war-horse. They even keep the -Brother skill on! Don't remember when this happened exactly, but it was a pretty nice QoL change.
    [b][SIZE=3][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Cainwen Ciaphas[/COLOR][/SIZE][/b][COLOR="#C3C3C3"], Captain of Crickhollow, [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/CiaphasCain]HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH[/url]!!!
    [i]I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered![/i] My opinions are my own![/color]

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    2,350
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Heralds no longer get de-summoned when you mount up, on either a normal horse or war-horse. They even keep the -Brother skill on! Don't remember when this happened exactly, but it was a pretty nice QoL change.
    i think it was with RoR and the War Horses, if i remember correctly.

    fyi, they still dismiss when you use a stable-path-mount.



    ps- the best pet-system ive seen in any game is for SW:TOR. but, the game was built with them in mind, so i guess its not a fair comparison... but, i do like that they have paperdolls/character-sheets and can be fully outfitted with weapons and armor. they are equal to player-characters in strength (but lack the AI to make them equal to player characters) which would be too much for this game, especially pvmp, i assume.

    where am i goin with this? i dont know, just that thats a system for pets that works really well. i guess, give them stats and paperdolls.

  15. #15
    Just started playing a Captain, former 95 runny guy. Figured I would try cappy since they heal but can take more damage. What I have found is that the cappy herald is a mistake altogether. You are tying the captains main fellowship benefits to a pet and not the captain. Not only that, but the captain now must rely on the herald to provide benefits back to the captain. Ok, no problem the devs say, we will just make the herald spawnable in combat. That's not the cause of the problem is it? Which is why in the instances provided above in this thread, the herald getting killed immediately destroys the whole plan and fellowship benefit and is a waste of time to respawn.

    Ideas to fix the problem?

    Yeah, get rid of the herald. You already had gotten rid of him at high level before. However, instead of realizing that the herald was the problem, instead, you did away with the banner and made the herald even more important. Why did you do that when already the herald was a waste before? It is the captain who should be providing fellowship benefits, not a pet. How do you fix this? Simple, start with a blank page and tell yourself, "no pets for the captain" and then you may actually find yourself getting closer to a real class with real benefits to all fellowships all the time no matter the situation.

  16. #16
    In the Past you have to chose between the Herald and the Banner. Quiet easy for the Most.
    Now we can get both.
    The Herald becomes same Level as we, and is able to hit something.
    The Herald can carry the Banner and the Brotherskill.
    In Raids i command him to stay passive. Sometimes i park him at a place to survive best.
    Then he does not damage, but gift the buff for the whole group.

    I would also like to have a more tougher, or robust Herald. For me it is quiet enough to carry the Banner and stay alive.
    He gets the benefit of group heals so there is maybe only the adjustable screw on his Moral.
    That should be suffice, to increase his Moral pool, maybe double it. This solve with high Spikes.

    To comparing again, and again with the Loremaster and his pet is bad.
    The LM pet has ever a very good function.
    The Captains Herald is only a little Shadow of it and was long time not even seen, as we have to chose between the Alternatives.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,697
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinkhan View Post
    Yeah, get rid of the herald. You already had gotten rid of him at high level before. However, instead of realizing that the herald was the problem, instead, you did away with the banner and made the herald even more important. Why did you do that when already the herald was a waste before? It is the captain who should be providing fellowship benefits, not a pet. How do you fix this? Simple, start with a blank page and tell yourself, "no pets for the captain" and then you may actually find yourself getting closer to a real class with real benefits to all fellowships all the time no matter the situation.

    The problem with getting rid of the herald is that, when solo, the captain looses access to the 'brother' set skills - so inspire, to arms and call - and without these our potency takes a beating (the difference when fighting the same creep, for instance, with and without to arms/call active is quite substantial). Herald damage is abysmal, with survivability not being much better, though if I had to choose I'd say that boosting the survivability should be the primary aim, as inspire remains our only power restore (at least in red), and having to resummons a pet in order to gain the minor power restore that is given from inspire seems to rather defeat the point.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist View Post
    The problem with getting rid of the herald is that, when solo, the captain looses access to the 'brother' set skills - so inspire, to arms and call - and without these our potency takes a beating (the difference when fighting the same creep, for instance, with and without to arms/call active is quite substantial). Herald damage is abysmal, with survivability not being much better, though if I had to choose I'd say that boosting the survivability should be the primary aim, as inspire remains our only power restore (at least in red), and having to resummons a pet in order to gain the minor power restore that is given from inspire seems to rather defeat the point.
    So disconnect the buffs from the heralds, use placable banners in the old style with or without the herald. Or make the buff radiate from the captain in an Aura just like IDOME/Motivation. Or, you know, make the buffs good again by making them a usable skill that grants a 30 minute buff so when the group splits up for BB objectives the captains contribution isnt nerfed.

    Keep the heralds as an optional solo tool while offering an alternative (Such as a stance that grants a self-buff to damage and regen but disables heralds).

    Done.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    1,866
    Heralds in general seem fine to me now. While they may be less powerful individually when compared to LM pets, their presence is more beneficial to captains when compared to LMs(outside of the blue line, which is obviously tailored directly to them). While I wouldn't mind my heralds being a bit less squishy, their damage is decent for everyday questing and skirmishes, the archer especially can get some fairly impressive crits.

    Seems to me most of the complaints about heralds are stemming from their use in the tougher instanced content and PvMP. The problem with buffing heralds to be more viable there is that it makes all content below that absolutely trivial. Again we've seen this with LM pets, which at this point basically do the fighting for you, even without investing in them. I don't want that here.

    And as a final note, removing heralds completely is not a 'solution', anymore than fixing a broken wrist by cutting off your hand is a solution. A fair amount of people actually like having two hands you know.
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

    Posting in white; so people can read my dismal ramblings easier.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Heralds in general seem fine to me now. While they may be less powerful individually when compared to LM pets, their presence is more beneficial to captains when compared to LMs(outside of the blue line, which is obviously tailored directly to them). While I wouldn't mind my heralds being a bit less squishy, their damage is decent for everyday questing and skirmishes, the archer especially can get some fairly impressive crits.
    May I ask at what level you have found this to be the case? I may not have been clear, but I play entirely at 95, so while I understand the archer is more effective in certain level ranges, I have found it to be significantly underwhelming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Seems to me most of the complaints about heralds are stemming from their use in the tougher instanced content and PvMP. The problem with buffing heralds to be more viable there is that it makes all content below that absolutely trivial. Again we've seen this with LM pets, which at this point basically do the fighting for you, even without investing in them. I don't want that here.
    Actually ANY instanced content. And you could multiply herald DPS by 10 and it would still be puny. (400 dps vs 40dps, added to a captains own and we are still not "top tier" DPS).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    And as a final note, removing heralds completely is not a 'solution', anymore than fixing a broken wrist by cutting off your hand is a solution. A fair amount of people actually like having two hands you know.
    That is a false equivalence. I would say >99% of people like having two hands. I would say <50% of captain players use and enjoy the herald. Further, I have at no point in this thread suggested the outright removal of heralds. See the third post in this thread for my actual suggestions. In fact on several occasions I have said "dont remove the heralds, leave them in so people who like them can use them, but give us back banners" or whatever.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    The Prancing Pony, usually I'm drunk in a corner
    Posts
    3,029
    Always been like that... Maybe a Player Suggestion in the forums would help :P
    Did everyone get a bugged signature? My BB code doesn't work anymore
    ____________________________
    [img]http://i.imgur.com/CnvXnLv.jpg[/img]
    [color=Orange]Glorgnorbor,[/color] [color=cyan][I]A Rock And A Hard Place,[/color][/I] [color=red]Stop by our Friday music shows! 4PM EST at the Bree West Gate on Dwarrowdelf![/color]
    [color=red]If a Malledhrim Soldier dies alone in the forest because of canceled quest, will it make a sound?[/color] ~Leixy

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Always been like that... Maybe a Player Suggestion in the forums would help :P
    What do you consider this whole thread btw?

    And also the next most popular thread this month:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Herald-Revamp

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    The Prancing Pony, usually I'm drunk in a corner
    Posts
    3,029
    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    What do you consider this whole thread btw?
    I know this is a suggestion thread, was just suggesting that you also post in the "Players Suggestion" subforum. Most likely to be read there, and good to have it in both spots for suggestions.
    Did everyone get a bugged signature? My BB code doesn't work anymore
    ____________________________
    [img]http://i.imgur.com/CnvXnLv.jpg[/img]
    [color=Orange]Glorgnorbor,[/color] [color=cyan][I]A Rock And A Hard Place,[/color][/I] [color=red]Stop by our Friday music shows! 4PM EST at the Bree West Gate on Dwarrowdelf![/color]
    [color=red]If a Malledhrim Soldier dies alone in the forest because of canceled quest, will it make a sound?[/color] ~Leixy

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    326
    And to keep things up to date:

    The Oath-breaking Warrior scored a hit with a moderate melee attack on iHateStupidPets for 813 Common damage to Morale.'

    Vs:

    The Oath-breaking Warrior scored a devastating hit with a moderate melee attack on Zahamir for 737 Common damage to Morale.

    I think its clear the pet mitigations are still very poor, and they still have less morale than the captain as well.

    DPS still hovering around 40 as well (untraited in all cases). This is using a herald of war, level 95.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Rohan
    Posts
    876
    Heralds need a survivability bump. I ran Fornost Fire T2C the other day, and my herald was dropping left and right from AoEs.
    Aethelbehrt ~ Captain of Landroval
    Haradwen ~ Warden of Landroval
    Zôraphel ~ Burglar of Landroval

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload