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  1. #1

    Thumbs down Kill steals and "helping"

    I'm not normally one for forum posts, especially not posts of this nature so I'll attempt (and probably fail) to make this brief. Lately on Firefoot, I've noticed people "helping" me. I play a champ and a warden and I'm used to soloing (and dying). These people "help" by running in and attacking things I'm working on without even asking me if I needed said help. To those of you who haven't noticed, unless you are in a fellowship with the person you're helping, this cuts their XP gained in half. Even if you just heal that person and don't touch the mob. You don't get any XP and the person you're helping gets half of what they would normally get. I could go on but like I said, I'm trying to keep it short. So next time you see someone you think needs help, just ask first. Maybe something like "Jump if you need help." Sometimes help is welcome, other times you may think you're helping, but really you're just annoying the other person. Stay classy, Firefoot.

    ---Edit: Now that I think about it, even if you are in a fellowship I believe you get lower XP. But then you kill more because you have more people to kill stuff. Not just a single mob. And I realize that the XP from one mob really is insignificant compared to quests. But when it's a boss or quest mob and you steal it by "helping", really annoying. </venting>
    Last edited by ArabelleShadowfire; Jan 12 2012 at 10:45 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    If you are having this much of an issue with "helping" in PvE, I couldn't imagine your stress level in PvP (or what Firefoot calls PvP). Hehe. :P A lot of really good 1v1s end in a rank 0 Black Arrow launching a 1k hit to your opponent from 30m out as he's running by to collect fallen timber. But hey, at least he got kb credit to add to his deed book. With that being said, yes, your frustration is not uncommon and certainly not unreasonable. If I ever run by you and you're struggling, I'll make sure to give you a nice, big Mending Verse

  3. #3
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by ArabelleShadowfire View Post
    I'm not normally one for forum posts, especially not posts of this nature so I'll attempt (and probably fail) to make this brief. Lately on Firefoot, I've noticed people "helping" me. I play a champ and a warden and I'm used to soloing (and dying). These people "help" by running in and attacking things I'm working on without even asking me if I needed said help. To those of you who haven't noticed, unless you are in a fellowship with the person you're helping, this cuts their XP gained in half. Even if you just heal that person and don't touch the mob. You don't get any XP and the person you're helping gets half of what they would normally get. I could go on but like I said, I'm trying to keep it short. So next time you see someone you think needs help, just ask first. Maybe something like "Jump if you need help." Sometimes help is welcome, other times you may think you're helping, but really you're just annoying the other person. Stay classy, Firefoot.

    ---Edit: Now that I think about it, even if you are in a fellowship I believe you get lower XP. But then you kill more because you have more people to kill stuff. Not just a single mob. And I realize that the XP from one mob really is insignificant compared to quests. But when it's a boss or quest mob and you steal it by "helping", really annoying. </venting>

    it's a MMO it happens in all of them try skyrim no other players to steal your kills
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  4. #4
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    If that 120xp and 30 extra seconds it's going to take to level ticks you off, the rest of your life must be pretty freaking awesome. Grats.

    You're in an MMO. If you don't want to play with other people, pick up a console.


    I've been yelled at both for helping and for NOT helping other people. ("Why did you let me die??" "I didn't even see you dude.") Maybe they're helping you because they need those mobs too and you're too much of a sologawd to share so they're getting you out of their way quicker since you're not so important that they should have to just stand there and wait till you're done. Or maybe you look like you need help. Either way, shake it off. We need to band together against the real problems in LOTRO: People who don't move the Emissary of War.
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  5. #5
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    Angry Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Played a lot of mmo's and this one I have noticed has a lot of ksing going on. It is also annoying some runs up to a branch/ore you are about to harvest after you kill the mob on it and then just take it right under you. At the start, I understand all the ksing since we are all learning how the game works. Took me only 1 time to figure out that when the bar turns grey it's someone else's kill, or if I see those branches/ores on my mini map only to find the player killing a mob right next to it, I go on to the next branch/ore. I could go on about what i would like to do to these rude individuals, but I will end my rant here.

  6. #6

    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    I understand the OP's feelings. Contrary to other replies bemoaning the pendatry of worrying about a few XP here and there, this is really an issue of courtesy and competence. Help when someone is about to die. If you are not sure, watch the fight progress. I'm often surprised by the resilience of low-level toons as I run my 75 hunters around collecting resources. Folks often don't need much help.

    When my low toons get that kind of "help", I simply send a tell asking the "helper" if they were aware they just cut my XP in half. Nine out of ten times they say something like "No I didn't. It doesn't work that way." Then I have the opportunity to educate the ignorant. I like those opportunites, they bolster my ego. Most folks are happy with their new knowledge.

    From my experience, I conclude the kill-steal behavior is born of incompetence, not discourtesy. Incompetence is easily fixed.

    PS: As to stealing branches and ore, that is another story!

  7. #7
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    In my opinion I dont mind either way, I generally dont grind mobs for level, I know how to run quest lines and which zone to go for the certian levels. So by the time youve killed 3000 mobs for your level ive cleared 2 zones and gotten 2-3 levels in the process. im exagerating of course but its all good either way and the OP shouldnt let small things like that bug them. just woosaa and move on there are always more things to kill.
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  8. #8

    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Ahh one of my favorite MMO-etiquitte topics.

    I have also been yelled at for both helping and not helping. But, the people who get mad about being "helped" are generally much nastier about it and far less open to your reasons of why you thought you should help (upon helping one time the person immediately assumed all sorts of things about my education level and age and was very open with me about those opinions). Whereas, those that get angry about not receiving the helping hand are much more open to the explanation of "sorry you died, but you'd be surprised about how angry some people get when you try to help them." After a few years of collecting data in lotro, I've decided it causes less overall stress to assume most people don't want or need help and make amends with those that did want the help you didn't give.

    Personally, I'm in the camp of "Don't want help and kinda bothers me when people do help, but not enough to say anything about it." I do get exponentially more annoyed each kill following the first helping kill, which has more to do with my anti-social tendencies when solo quesing rather than with any diminished exp.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by jonhurt View Post
    Ahh one of my favorite MMO-etiquitte topics.

    I have also been yelled at for both helping and not helping. But, the people who get mad about being "helped" are generally much nastier about it and far less open to your reasons of why you thought you should help (upon helping one time the person immediately assumed all sorts of things about my education level and age and was very open with me about those opinions). Whereas, those that get angry about not receiving the helping hand are much more open to the explanation of "sorry you died, but you'd be surprised about how angry some people get when you try to help them." After a few years of collecting data in lotro, I've decided it causes less overall stress to assume most people don't want or need help and make amends with those that did want the help you didn't give.

    Personally, I'm in the camp of "Don't want help and kinda bothers me when people do help, but not enough to say anything about it." I do get exponentially more annoyed each kill following the first helping kill, which has more to do with my anti-social tendencies when solo quesing rather than with any diminished exp.

    I tend to check thier moral compared to the mob and speed of drop in said morale besides if they need help they see me standing there or passing by they can ask....

  10. #10

    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
    Then I have the opportunity to educate the ignorant. I like those opportunites, they bolster my ego. Most folks are happy with their new knowledge.

    From my experience, I conclude the kill-steal behavior is born of incompetence, not discourtesy. Incompetence is easily fixed.
    Incompetence? Ignorant? Wow. Really, just...wow.

    So we have two choices, we can be insulted by those we help, or we can be insulted by those we don't. It's a no win situation, with either choice carrying the possibility of people being rude and acting as if you ruined their entire day and set back their leveling by at least a week.

    And really, half xp is better than no xp and a ride back from the rez. In the time you spend "educating" the poor unfortunate soul who bothered to try and help you, you could have killed at least one more mob to get back the lost xp.

    We have to use our best judgement. If someone looks like they are struggling, I will help. Level 20+ I wait a bit longer, but less than 20 and I'll step in sooner, because some are trying really hard for the deed. I would much rather someone have to kill one extra mob to make up for the lost xp than someone die on the last mob needed for a quest, and have to run/ride back, kill the mob, then get back again to the turn-in. Especially in the not so easy to get to areas.

    Be mad if you want, but don't be insulting. After all, chances are if you didn't look like you were going to die, we wouldn't have stopped to help
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000000c5929/signature.png]Naughtymistress[/charsig]

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  11. #11
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyMistress View Post
    Incompetence? Ignorant? Wow. Really, just...wow.

    So we have two choices, we can be insulted by those we help, or we can be insulted by those we don't. It's a no win situation, with either choice carrying the possibility of people being rude and acting as if you ruined their entire day and set back their leveling by at least a week.

    And really, half xp is better than no xp and a ride back from the rez. In the time you spend "educating" the poor unfortunate soul who bothered to try and help you, you could have killed at least one more mob to get back the lost xp.

    We have to use our best judgement. If someone looks like they are struggling, I will help. Level 20+ I wait a bit longer, but less than 20 and I'll step in sooner, because some are trying really hard for the deed. I would much rather someone have to kill one extra mob to make up for the lost xp than someone die on the last mob needed for a quest, and have to run/ride back, kill the mob, then get back again to the turn-in. Especially in the not so easy to get to areas.

    Be mad if you want, but don't be insulting. After all, chances are if you didn't look like you were going to die, we wouldn't have stopped to help
    Well said +Rep

  12. #12
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by NickStern View Post
    I tend to check thier moral compared to the mob and speed of drop in said morale besides if they need help they see me standing there or passing by they can ask....
    Same here. I stand and watch and only jump in if it I think is needed. To be needed, morale has to be really low or too great a pull for that to happen.
    .

    plus others

  13. #13
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by ArabelleShadowfire View Post
    Even if you just heal that person and don't touch the mob. You don't get any XP and the person you're helping gets half of what they would normally get.
    I didn't realise that! Sometimes I like to practise my healing on people and it never occurred to me that it might be unwelcome!

  14. #14

    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by ArabelleShadowfire View Post

    ---Edit: Now that I think about it, even if you are in a fellowship I believe you get lower XP. But then you kill more because you have more people to kill stuff. Not just a single mob. And I realize that the XP from one mob really is insignificant compared to quests. But when it's a boss or quest mob and you steal it by "helping", really annoying. </venting>
    You get a modifier based on how many people are in the group.
    2 members = 20% bonus
    3 people = 44% bonus
    4 people = 60% bonus
    5 people = 80% bonus
    6 people = 116% bonus

    Now the way xp is ditributed is (solo exp award * bonus modifer) / number of members = fellowship experience award
    AT least that's what the Lorebook says...

    Now about the rest... YES! OMG I hate when people 'help'. And if more than 1 person 'helps' you get even less because when you are 'assisted' and not in a group it counts as a temporary fellowship with NO fellowship bonus. With 1 'assistant' you get 50%. With 2 you get 33%. At 3 'helpers' + you it's 25%... although only the person that attacked first gets an xp. The 'helpers' get 0.

    Now really I don't care about the xp. I feel like I level too fast anyway. What annoys me is that to keep the game fun, I try to challenge myself sometimes and take on more than I think I can handle. Sometimes I win, sometimes I die, but it keeps me on my toes. Those 'helpers' are ruining my fun.

    So to all of you 'helpers' out there... it takes 2 seconds for a person to type 'help'. If they really need it, they'll ask.

    /end rant

  15. #15

    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyMistress View Post
    Incompetence? Ignorant? Wow. Really, just...wow.

    So we have two choices, we can be insulted by those we help, or we can be insulted by those we don't. It's a no win situation, with either choice carrying the possibility of people being rude and acting as if you ruined their entire day and set back their leveling by at least a week.



    Be mad if you want, but don't be insulting. After all, chances are if you didn't look like you were going to die, we wouldn't have stopped to help
    See I don't insult or act rude to those that think they're helping. I just say thanks with a smiley, even though i don't mean it. But I give them the benefit of the doubt that they thought they were helping me. But really it only takes a sec to sen a tell saying 'need help?' I know because that's what I do. Some have said yes and others no. I prefer to give them the choice. After all, it's their game.
    Last edited by Warriorpoetex75; Feb 22 2012 at 01:01 AM.

  16. #16

    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    is this really a thread lol. This is such a non issue its almost comical to see anyone even write about it. My lord they made leveling so ridiculously easy that a few points here and there are meaningless.

  17. #17
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    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    Quote Originally Posted by aelliott1993 View Post
    is this really a thread lol. This is such a non issue its almost comical to see anyone even write about it. My lord they made leveling so ridiculously easy that a few points here and there are meaningless.
    I have to agree
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  18. #18

    Re: Kill steals and "helping"

    As others have said, I tend to watch the battle for a bit. If it looks like they're in trouble, I'll usually help. By the time I send them a tell and they answer me - if they are in trouble - then they're probably dead anyway. I err on the side of helping because I learned my MMOing from Ultima, where you were punished for dying.

  19. #19
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    tagging others mobs is rude... its that simple. its not about the exp, just the principal. just use good judgement in helping or not helping based on rate of decay on the mob vs the player. just keep in mind that if you seek to please everyone you will always end up pleasing no one. there will always be the guy that gives you &&&& for something and just take that opportunity to /ignore them or just blow them off. i tend to ignore someone coming up to 'help' me as not important when its not needed and appreciate it when it is.

    however i do hate when people help with every mob you pull or come up and 'help' you and then follow that annoyance up with just the words 'invite me' or 'invite'. boy howdy would i like to punch those fools.

    one such feature that i miss from Everquest though was /y or /yell. what it would do is if things get hairy you can hit /y and it will let people within something like 10 meters that you needed assistance and where you are at. if you want to go with 'well people will just spam me with it', i know that i get it in emote spam all the time.
    Really good leaders can lead without anyone even realizing the fact. And the elite few that make their grip on power known, exert their power in such a way that no one really cares they are being manipulated.

  20. #20
    General rule of thumb for me:

    XP isn't as important as surviving. I hate being near the end of a quest area and getting killed because someone didn't want to help so I assume others want the same. I'll help in those instances.

    If it's in the open world you're on your own. Now if you're low on health and I'm on my cappie and you're not fighting anything. You're getting healed...deal with it. :-)
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  21. #21
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    So, I guess the Rohan update makes this thread moot?

    We are removing the XP penalty for helping a player who is fighting a tapped mob. Players who ran by and healed a player who was fighting a tapped mob or took a swing at the tapped mob, were hurting the player’s XP by a LOT. Now helping someone will just be a nice thing to do. (Hopefully bringing some more MM back into the landscape portion of our MMO).

    To balance the ability of players to assist one another without penalty, we are trivializing the XP that purple (or impossible) mobs give a player. As these are mobs that should be impossible for you to kill anyway this shouldn’t impact the average player much.

    Also, all the monsters in Rohan use a new open-tapping rule (aka tapping doesn’t exist). If you contribute to killing a monster in Rohan you will get full kill, deed, quest, and XP credit as if you killed the mob solo.

  22. #22
    It does look like this thread is moot as far as loss of XP from helping. though it is still a good idea to only help if the person needs it as some enjoy the challenge and your coming along and killing the mobs for them can be annoying. But, if you heal em and they get mad? someone call the whaambulance lol.

    I have noticed the past couple weeks more people trying to grief when you are working on a deed or collecting mats for crafting. Example working on the worm and crawler deeds in Trollshaws, was there for about an hour running up and down both sides of the river making a nice loop with an everlasting supply of them and someone passing through stops and watches me kill a worm and then a crawler then runs ahead of me and starts killing them too, OK, no problem I can always use company while killing these and ask if he wants to fellowship... No reply... So I cross the river and work in the opposite direction and less than a minute later they are coming from that direction and all dead crawlers up there, quickly head back where we were both going before and live ones. So it was obvious they wanted to kill the ones ahead of me just to be a jerk.

    Then mining ore and someone runs up to the node thats visibly close to the one you are currently working on the they race you to the next set. So again change directions and soon find them just ahead of you or coming from the flank to get ahead.

    Either instance I milestone out, repair and sell if I have shopfood loot or make some ingots from what I already got then use a stable to head back and take a quick break while I travel. They are always gone when I return. Really I dont know if that can be reported or not and if they have the deed they can say they were working on it too, or needed the mats as well. So reporting would be a waste of time for the GM and yourself.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
    I understand the OP's feelings. Contrary to other replies bemoaning the pendatry of worrying about a few XP here and there, this is really an issue of courtesy and competence. Help when someone is about to die. If you are not sure, watch the fight progress. I'm often surprised by the resilience of low-level toons as I run my 75 hunters around collecting resources. Folks often don't need much help.

    When my low toons get that kind of "help", I simply send a tell asking the "helper" if they were aware they just cut my XP in half. Nine out of ten times they say something like "No I didn't. It doesn't work that way." Then I have the opportunity to educate the ignorant. I like those opportunites, they bolster my ego. Most folks are happy with their new knowledge.

    From my experience, I conclude the kill-steal behavior is born of incompetence, not discourtesy. Incompetence is easily fixed.

    PS: As to stealing branches and ore, that is another story!
    My ego's bigger than yours.



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  24. #24
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    as of update 9 u do not lose any exp when somebody helps everyone who tags the mob gets full xp and there own loot so get over it if somebody helps you

 

 

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