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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    France
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    15

    Re: AW: Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I honestly have no idea. Translation is something that I am not directly involved in, I have brought this up, and will do so again.
    I know it's not your job, but since you are apparently going to do so, can you please mention the French translation too? My minstrel is still a lowbie in her 20s, but I already had to switch to the English client in order to learn the class because the majority of the skills' tooltips are either outdated or plain wrong (ie : instead of "+25% ballad damage", the War-Speech tooltip says "+25% War-Speech damage", the ballads are referred to by their former names in the tooltips of skills affecting them, some other skills are called entirely different names in different tooltips referring to them, some skill descriptions are incomplete or confusing, etc etc).

    There are typos and translation errors everywhere in the French client, but while they're just a minor inconvenient most of the time (worst thing have to be the majority of task quests having different names than their related task items), they really make it impossible for a new player who doesn't speak English to learn to play the Minstrel class.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    266

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Give them a healing Penalty while in War Speech please
    Retired for good.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    429

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    I'm glad I didn't spend scrolls on a buff book. The sad part is you never know what will be nerfed or buffed so it's like a gamble no matter what you do. That said, 20% melee damage for 35s turned a melee group into a wrecking ball and I suppose the nerf is warranted. The part about "clearing the way" so that other classes can buff, is just a joke, though. Captains were not being replaced by Minstrels. If anything the buffs were stacking on each other and making groups too powerful. No one has ever diminished a Captain's role in a group. I'd rather instead of removing the buffs you add them to the yellow line. Think about what you are doing to people who invested a lot of work into making an Anthem of War/Composure book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiolas View Post
    Give them a healing Penalty while in War Speech please
    I'm compassionate to the plight of all creeps, but :

    1) There already is, it comes from traiting dps and wearing dps gear/eq rather than healing.
    2) This would negatively impact PvE.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,614

    Re: AW: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Thruili View Post
    So the Anthem of War gets nerfed again
    With Rise of Isengard all offence increased from about 20% to 100%. Before the Ballad of War gave an abolute increase of 20% to a character with 20% melee offence which is equal to a relative increase of 16,7% in damage. Now the Anthem of War still gives 20% absolute increase but a character with 100% melee offence only gains a relative increase of 10% in damage. So with the new offence ratings, the Anthem of War lost about 40% of its effect. (This is also true for To Arms, Fight On, Continuous Blood Rage, Stance:Strength, Overpower and others with their respective values).
    Now as I understand we will get an Anthem of War which provides 10% absolute bonus damage which is 5% relative bonus damage (for characters with 100% offence and even less while more buffs are present) IF we invest in 3 legacies on a songbook (I usually swap in a buffbook for this). If we don't invest in those legacies we can increase the damage relatively by only about 2,5%.
    In contrast the Anthem of Prowess gives -10% attack duration ADDITIONALLY to some armour and evade ratings which equals out to more than 10% relative bonus damage as long as there are no cooldowns or inductions interfering and WITHOUT the need for 3 legacies on a buffbook.
    I'd rather like a buff for all those skills mentioned above which lost in efficiency with that huge increase in offence ratings of RoI than nerfing them even more.
    Orion you did a great job with the champion and minstrel update, with the revamp of the Lone-Lands and Garth Agarwen, you will hopefully be able to fix wardens and probably lots of things I do not know.
    I have great confidence that you understand what I am trying to explain and hope that you might change your mind about those changes.
    Not a minstrel, but I was just going to post saying this before reading your post, since I remember the good old days of 4 champ/4 burg/2 cappy/2 BoW minstrel raids in MoM

    As mentioned by Thruili, in MoM, the buff for melee went 120% --> 140% (a pretty impressive 16.7% increase in terms of actual damage done).

    Post U6 nerf, the buff for melee will go 200% --> 210% (a paltry 5% in actual damage output).

    This is over a three-fold nerf. RIP Ballad of Win?
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  5. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    672

    Re: AW: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftstrike View Post
    This is over a three-fold nerf. RIP Ballad of Win?
    Everyone already knows that War was majorly reduced in its purpose with the removal of offence cap since ROI. The further U6 nerf from 220% to 210% is really quite small in proportion in comparison. It's already a low priority anthem no matter what.

    But let's not start talking math now, lest they nerf that other actual DPS-boosting anthem too.

  6. #31

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Way to go Orion,

    Thank you for reducing the minstrel group damage buffs. They were very powerful and it was getting a bit out of hand. I can remember running the dps races in OD and way too much depending on the minstrel having up their buffs all the time. On the tree challenge we'd almost every time have the group with the anthem book minstrel having to stop dpsing all together, while the other group was put in a bad position of trying to keep up. Those buffs were a lot, way to much towards dps. And it put the minstrel in a very bad position, especially if you were the minstrel that didn't have the book.

    Minstrels should not have become "necessary" for maximum group dps. More importantly, dps players should have the burden of keeping their dps at the maximum level, not depending on a healer to make up for any shortcomings. Besides, that's what captains are for ;P
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  7. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    199

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    I'll be excellent back to you...

    I rather enjoy being a Yellow-line minstrel, and I deserve some buffs worth having since I have to trait 5 yellow to keep them up. It's not like I trait 4 yellow for master of tales, that would be more reasonable. But I trait 5, so honestly the buffs should be worth going 5 deep into a line for, when its not your healing line.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Squirrel Valley
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    2,954

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Are there any plans to include some kind of UI element for keeping track of the ballads, anthem, and coda effect?

    My minstrel is just an alt so I still don't have it all memorized, and it seems like it would be a huge help to new players learning the class. I seem to remember a "sheet music" mock-up in one of the dev posts explaining the minstrel changes, I know most of the people who play the class as their main character don't need it by now, but I would definitely find it helpful for managing the buffs.
    Not all those who wander are lost. They might be working on one of their exploration deeds.
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  9. #34

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by MysterX View Post
    Are there any plans to include some kind of UI element for keeping track of the ballads, anthem, and coda effect?

    My minstrel is just an alt so I still don't have it all memorized, and it seems like it would be a huge help to new players learning the class. I seem to remember a "sheet music" mock-up in one of the dev posts explaining the minstrel changes, I know most of the people who play the class as their main character don't need it by now, but I would definitely find it helpful for managing the buffs.
    Go to http://www.lotrointerface.com/ and look for MinstrelBuff, I think it give you want you're looking for, at least which ballads and anthems are active. The coda effects you're just going to have to learn.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia PA USA
    Posts
    394

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by MysterX View Post
    Are there any plans to include some kind of UI element for keeping track of the ballads, anthem, and coda effect?
    The excellent plug-in MinstrelBuff (lotrointerface.com) does this, although I'd really like to see it become an in-game feature to avoid the very real risk that an update will break one of my go-to plug-ins for weeks at a time.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia PA USA
    Posts
    394

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    The current way I must turn off once stance to turn on another is different than how every other class with stances works. Is there a reason Minstrels behave differently, or is this something we might see adjusted in U6?

  12. #37

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    So, you are introducing a nerf first, as opposed... to fixing our class?

    ...why?

    I'm going through the VIP cancellation process as I type, I've been down this road before. :\

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    In the mountains
    Posts
    107

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiolas View Post
    Give them a healing Penalty while in War Speech please
    Fact: We can only self heal while in war-speech.
    Fact: in no stance, one of the ballads heals and the coda is a very nice hefty heal (2k+ every few seconds), in war-speech, both of them do damage instead

    ^need I say more?
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  14. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ontario, California
    Posts
    5,589

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidiun View Post
    So, you are introducing a nerf first, as opposed... to fixing our class?

    ...why?

    I'm going through the VIP cancellation process as I type, I've been down this road before. :\
    Thanks for the tremendous chuckle your post gave me. Orion posts probably the tiniest "nerf" possible and you play the "VIP cancellation process" card? WHAT IS THERE LEFT TO FIX? Coda bug has already been mentioned...so that leaves just about nothing to fix. But hey, if a 2-5% damage decrease for other people (not even yourself) is enough to make you leave the game, good luck in whatever game you decide to pick up.

    BTW, sign me up for an IN THE MOORS self-healing nerf based on stance. Null = 100% self heals / Harmony = 85% / War Speech 60-75%. In the name of balance...seriously.
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  15. #40

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    So long as the the Anthem of War Legendary Item legacies are unified into one major legacy i dont see this 'nerf' to anthem of war being an issue, but even if you don't Orion i don't really see this halving of AoW's melee output to be anything of real consequence. Keep us posted Orion(!), have good news next time though! :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfell View Post
    BTW, sign me up for an IN THE MOORS self-healing nerf based on stance. Null = 100% self heals / Harmony = 85% / War Speech 60-75%. In the name of balance...seriously.
    /Signed
    Yes!! Put some difficulty/equilibrium back in the Moors for us minstrels.
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  16. #41

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Orion will the Minstrel Anthem bug be fixed in U6 or before?

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...er-than-AoW%29
    .
    Gilrain - Draigoch First 13/10/2011
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  17. #42

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I am going to keep this thread alive for a while and make adjustments as they potentially arise. The first changes, are negative ones, a little.

    • The Fellowship Bonus granted by Anthem of War will be reduced to +5% for each of the damage bonuses, Melee, Ranged and Tactical. This is being done to allow for other classes to have more room to provide bonuses to the fellowship. The bonus provided to the Minstrel will remain the same.
    • The Legacy Bonuses affecting each buff aspect of Anthem of War will also be reduced to half percentage steps allowing for an extra bonus of 5% to be given to each of Melee, Ranged and Tactical damages.
    Phrasing sounds like you will nerf the legacies for the +Ranged and +Tactical damage components of AoW too, and then that you won't.

    I don't really care about the nerf. Champ friends will be sad though.

    It also sounds like other classes will have compensatory buffs when it comes to buffing, so extra whatever.
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  18. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Eisenberge
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    4,540

    AW: Re: AW: Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I honestly have no idea. Translation is something that I am not directly involved in, I have brought this up, and will do so again.
    Thank you for your efforts. Unfortunately, I can't find somebody from the translation team in the forum. Does anyone have any advice how to reach one of the translators team (outside of the bug report system)?
    Last edited by Thodorin; Jan 12 2012 at 03:29 AM.

  19. #44

    AW: Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by GEARS1980 View Post
    Way to go Orion,

    Thank you for reducing the minstrel group damage buffs. They were very powerful and it was getting a bit out of hand. I can remember running the dps races in OD and way too much depending on the minstrel having up their buffs all the time. On the tree challenge we'd almost every time have the group with the anthem book minstrel having to stop dpsing all together, while the other group was put in a bad position of trying to keep up. Those buffs were a lot, way to much towards dps. And it put the minstrel in a very bad position, especially if you were the minstrel that didn't have the book.

    Minstrels should not have become "necessary" for maximum group dps. More importantly, dps players should have the burden of keeping their dps at the maximum level, not depending on a healer to make up for any shortcomings. Besides, that's what captains are for ;P
    The damage of the fellowship does not much depend on the minstrel having a buffing book or not which is only about 3% to 5% of the damage depending on the group.
    The traits of the minnie are far more important. You need at least three yellow traits to reduce the anthem cooldown to 10 seconds so you can effectively chain both the Anthem of War and the Anthem of Prowess. This increases the damage of the group by about 15% to 20% (depending on songbook and group make-up). And then you are reducing your healing output by about 30% because you can't keep the Anthem of the Third Age (Melody) up.
    A minstrel with more than 10 seconds cd on anthems will not be able to buff the group with both anthems while still being able to buff her own healing via the AotTA. So she will at most have the AoP up which is better for most classes than the AoW without the need for 3 different legacies.

    Not having the buffbook results in a net loss of 3% to 5% in damage if you always keep AoW up depending on your group. Not being traited 3y results in loosing at least one anthem and therefore about the same as not having the buffbook as this doubles your Anthem of War. If a minstrel ignores the Anthem of Prowess the group looses up to 10% of the damage.
    If the minstrel only buffs herself for healing and threat or the group for tactical mitigation, resistance and regeneration or even not at all the group will do about 15% less damage.

    And besides it should not be a problem to get a songbook for the Anthem of War. You don't need a lvl 75 second age book (as opposed to captains who want their buffs maxxed), any songbook is sufficient regardless of level and age. There are no relics and hardly scrolls of empowerment needed if at all.

    And there are a lot of reasons for one group dealing more damage than the other. Skills, traits, rotations, weapons, damage type, latency, group make-up, player skill and other things influence the dps as well. Two anthems are only a small part of the whole.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Chile, South America
    Posts
    79

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    I'll like to request that, apart from the legacies buffs to be united into 1, to change the aditional targets of call of the second age, to aditional targets of AoE skills, like the on the hunters have.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,184

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by AtzumoKayami View Post
    I'll like to request that, apart from the legacies buffs to be united into 1, to change the aditional targets of call of the second age, to aditional targets of AoE skills, like the on the hunters have.
    That would be wonderful for solo play, without much changing EITHER raid or PvMP balance.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,184

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Interim patches between now and U6 should fix the Coda Bug.
    Which one(s)? Which, if any, are we stuck with more permanently?

    Biggest for me are minstrel stripping buffs from non-minstrels and minstrels stripping buffs from other minstrels. Coda damage nerf is less important to my tastes, although I presume it's easier to fix for you.

  23. #48

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by AtzumoKayami View Post
    I'll like to request that, apart from the legacies buffs to be united into 1, to change the aditional targets of call of the second age, to aditional targets of AoE skills, like the on the hunters have.
    That really sounds sweet, but I think it may be a little OP. Consider the benefits:
    Extra damage on multiple mobs (Valar, Wizard, Orome)
    Extra light debuff on multiple mobs (Orome)
    Extra slow on multiple mobs (Orome)

    That seems like an awfully big buff for a class recently tweaked with the buff stick. You'd have to give up something for balance. Something like:

    Legacy price - Its already a very spendy legacy. I generally just buy 1 tier in it for 5 targets total.
    Nerf to the damage/debuffs of these skills

    --Harper
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  24. #49

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by CurtMonash View Post
    Which one(s)? Which, if any, are we stuck with more permanently?

    Biggest for me are minstrel stripping buffs from non-minstrels and minstrels stripping buffs from other minstrels. Coda damage nerf is less important to my tastes, although I presume it's easier to fix for you.
    Terribly irritating in a 3-man with two minstrels. And it plays havoc with that minstrel buffs plugin, which doesn't get that the other minstrel just killed your ballad buffs.

    --Harper
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  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Europe
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    672

    Re: Small Change(s) coming with Update 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Harperelle View Post
    Terribly irritating in a 3-man with two minstrels. And it plays havoc with that minstrel buffs plugin, which doesn't get that the other minstrel just killed your ballad buffs.

    --Harper
    I suspect that it's not the plugin's fault but a game fault. I noticed in a skirmish raid recently that I still had all three ballad buffs up but couldn't use anthems until I played three more ballads after the other minstrel had to use his coda. I don't have any plugins installed.

 

 
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