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  1. #1

    The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Firstly, I would like to say that this is purely addressing the issues with the classes themselves, and indeed the way the classes are constructed, I am not including issues such as side-switching and the STAB pillar exploit here.

    So, freep dps. We all know it's massively higher than creep dps, the 2 main issues here being:

    1) The hard-hitters: Most freep classes have a skill which does a tremendous amount of damage, top end examples include Hunter HS, Hunter Merciful Shot, Rune-keeper EC, Burglar SS, Champion Merciful strike, Lore-master LS, Lore-master Ents (and also minstrel CoF, because from what I hear it was nerfed too far/accidentally, and will be buffed again soon). On creepside, one class has one, BA VT.
    2) Critical numbers: Freepside players have many ways of buffing critical multipliers (relics, LIs, skills) and also of buffing critical chance (LIs, Skills, relics?). This means that freepside skills crit more often, and also harder, than creepside. This also hugely facilitates the damage of the hard-hitters.
    3) RAT fire: The issue here is that a large portion of freeps are ranged classes, so it is very easy for them to target a RAT and nuke it to death, which is more difficult for a creep raid unless it has a large number of BAs

    Now, freep dps is often justified by creep morale. I see many problems here:

    1) While creeps may have more morale on average, it is not proportional to the freepside dps-morale ratio
    2) Some freepside classes can easily gain higher morale than most creepside classes, (guardians can have more morale than all except wls) and yet they still dish out a very high amount of damage.
    3) Here's the key point. SURVIVABILITY. Freepside may less morale, but they have a huge number of ways and skills to keep them in the fight (I don't see these in quite the same way as escape skills). So, let's examine this in greater detail.

    In this list I will mark both survivability (staying in a fight) and escape skills (running away) - you may assume that survivability skills can also count as escape skills. Note also that while some skills I have listed as escape skills can be used in a fight (for instance, a warg sprinting to catch up with a running freep), it is not the same as a skill that actually helps you fight in the same way. Also, we must not forget racial skills- Strength of Morale, hobbit silence, Eldar's grace, Endurance of stone.
    Champions: 2x bubble (survivability), Sprint (escape), Adamant (survivability), Improved dire need (survivability)
    Burglars: Mischievous Delight (survivability), HIPS (escape), Knives out (survivability), T&G (survivability), Safe Fall (escape), FF (survivability). (I also should say ready and able, since it resets most of the cds of these skills)
    Minstrels: bubble x1 (survivability), multitude of heals, many of which usable while moving it seems (survivability), feign death (escape), Improved cry of the chorus (survivability).
    Lore-master: Call to the valar (survivability), Wisdom of the council (survivability), Nature's gift (survivability). (also a mention of permanent stun immunity and silence curing, as well as insta-cure disease and wounds).
    Rune-keeper (when healing attuned): Various heals, some usable while moving (survivability), bubble x1 (survivability).
    Wardens: Various HoTs (survivability), Huge self-heal - would be great if someone told me the name(survivability)
    Captain: various self-heals, some usable while moving (survivability), Last stand (survivability), Make haste (escape)
    Hunter: Some healing, but difficult to use this in combat, DF only usable out of combat (escape). On a note about DF, good hunters often daze, slow and run in order to leave combat for DF. Hobbit hunters can also Feign death and then DF when they leave combat.
    Guardian: Huge mitigations (survivability), Self heals (survivability), Brutal charge (escape).
    With regard to the guardian, i do not know a huge amount of the class, but I took this quote from one of my server's guardians:
    "Lets say a bit about my cds i can pop twice for myself heal for 4k in a row can be immune to evry skill for 2x15 seconds can use normal pot to get 1500 morale and other skill to get 500 morale.

    SO imagine tank i am dps build in spars so got like 14k morale so if i heal myself twice for big heals and small i am like plus 9k morale so u have to took down target who running ,dpsing, debuffing,dotting and have 23k+ morale

    and can be immune for all atacks for 30 seconds not single chance for creep in 1vs1 to win vs me atm" (from http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ussion/page134)

    Warg: HIPS (escape), sprint (escape), SH (survivability)
    BA: Moving target (survivability), Get a grip (survivability)
    WL: High mitigations (survivability), Heals (survivability)
    Reaver: Erm.... Dying rage (kind of survivability)
    Spider: Improved trapdoor sanctuary (survivability... sort of), Hatchling heal (survivability)
    Defiler: Heals, some usable while moving (survivability)

    I also ought to note freep CC and it's power compared to creep CC, but this has taken ages and frankly I think you all know that bit for yourselves.
    Last edited by Faolian; Dec 31 2011 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Or you could have just said that creeps are weaker versions of the freep classes.

    I don't see SH that much of a survivability skill. Armour boost doesn't stop huge freep dps, and a 1k bubble is gone with one freep attack and you're dead before it reapplies ..
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  3. #3
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Trium View Post
    Or you could have just said that creeps are weaker versions of the freep classes.

    I don't see SH that much of a survivability skill. Armour boost doesn't stop huge freep dps, and a 1k bubble is gone with one freep attack and you're dead before it reapplies ..
    Yet I still hear freeps complain about SH. It's a good skill, but all it really does is make up for the currently pathetic Warg DPS, maybe once the mitigations are fixed it will have a larger impact...and you're right about that bubble it's more help when running that at any other time.
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  4. #4

    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    You could have saved this bunch of useless words and obvious whining and actually address "the real problem with balance". The real problem begins when you try to justify the differences in morale and DPS by comparing the 2 in a linear way. DPS numbers that ignore Finesse, Critical Chance and Critical Multipliers, CC, etc, are misleading at best(pure lying at worst). Same goes for Morale numbers that ignore Armor, Resistances, Range, Defensive Skills, etc. If you take all of these factors into consideration than you'll realize that the notion that "creep morale is balanced against freep dps" is nothing short of cheap propaganda. Once you're able to bypass this key issue, the rest becomes much clearer.

  5. #5
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Faolian View Post
    and can be immune for all atacks for 30 seconds not single chance for creep in 1vs1 to win vs me atm" (from http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ussion/page134)

    Warg: HIPS (escape), sprint (escape), SH (survivability)
    BA: Moving target (survivability), Get a grip (survivability)
    WL: High mitigations (survivability), Heals (survivability)
    Reaver: Erm.... Dying rage (kind of survivability)
    Spider: Improved trapdoor sanctuary (survivability... sort of), Hatchling heal (survivability)
    Defiler: Heals, some usable while moving (survivability)

    I also ought to note freep CC and it's power compared to creep CC, but this has taken ages and frankly I think you all know that bit for yourselves.

    AH is about half a freep morale pot. wouldn't call that a survival skill

    If you want to talk about the increased mitigations, pretty much all freep classes have a skill just like that, a skill which gives this and that armour, parry/block boost or whatever for a limited time.

    SH is not a survivability skill.

  6. #6
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd View Post
    You could have saved this bunch of useless words and obvious whining and actually address "the real problem with balance". The real problem begins when you try to justify the differences in morale and DPS by comparing the 2 in a linear way. DPS numbers that ignore Finesse, Critical Chance and Critical Multipliers, CC, etc, are misleading at best(pure lying at worst). Same goes for Morale numbers that ignore Armor, Resistances, Range, Defensive Skills, etc. If you take all of these factors into consideration than you'll realize that the notion that "creep morale is balanced against freep dps" is nothing short of cheap propaganda. Once you're able to bypass this key issue, the rest becomes much clearer.
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  7. #7

    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd View Post
    You could have saved this bunch of useless words and obvious whining and actually address "the real problem with balance". The real problem begins when you try to justify the differences in morale and DPS by comparing the 2 in a linear way. DPS numbers that ignore Finesse, Critical Chance and Critical Multipliers, CC, etc, are misleading at best(pure lying at worst). Same goes for Morale numbers that ignore Armor, Resistances, Range, Defensive Skills, etc. If you take all of these factors into consideration than you'll realize that the notion that "creep morale is balanced against freep dps" is nothing short of cheap propaganda. Once you're able to bypass this key issue, the rest becomes much clearer.
    ^ that

    Creeps have morale..
    Freeps have survivability skills, high crits, damage, can get very high mitigations, their heals are better than creeps, higher resistance, armour, and have more skills.

    ~Kazniir/Dogwillhunt

    P.S. Turbine, when will you quit working on making the new instances a grind and try to actually fix the PvP in this game?

  8. #8
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    AW: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    There is no real problem with freep/creep balance. Creeps were always meant to be inferior, have always been and will forever be. All that is working as intended. Get over your false assumption that Turbine ever intended to make creeps really competitive.

    They can say (and there is somewhat right about that) that there is "balance", as creeps are made easy and fast (especially if you pay for win), while freeps need lot of grinding. This "balances" out with freeps being stronger. Of course, this does not justify that customers are beaten in their faces, but, hey, you dont need to be a customer anymore to play the reaper, and you only have to pay once to play a quite competitive (in a pack) stealth class!

    If you dont like it, dont play it.

  9. #9
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Turbine (originally) advertised Monster Play when selling this game (I don't know if they still do but if they do this still applies) and, as such, were making money off of Monster Play. Thus, they should have made Monster Play a viable game FOR ALL PLAYERS (Creeps and Freeps included). Instead, they alienated Creep players and falsely represented their game coding as Creeps have mostly sucked (save for maybe Weavers and Wargs at one time or another) since closed beta.

    Dorian is correct when he says "if you don't like it then don't play it"... and many Creep players have done just that. Most servers have pathetic PvP these days and that is due to their anemic PvP populations.

  10. #10
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    I do enjoy these biased threads.


    The only classes I've play since the newest update are warg, reaver, or hunter. I can say that PvP in general has gotten much more situational in that planning when and how you attack an enemy means a whole lot more now that the DPS curve has gone up again for both sides. I've fought hunters on my warg who didn't even get a single hit off. I've also been whipped by hunters who get the drop on me. I've fought reavers on my hunter who didn't touch me. I've also been critted to high heavens by a high ranked reaver who dropped me in under 5 seconds. Fights are very situational. If I can get the jump on my hunter it makes a night and day difference in the outcomes of fights. I find that alot of really dumb and poor players on BOTHsides really fail to plan ahead with when and how to attack.


    And I can't stand the whiner creeps who cry about how bad their DPS is when all I see them doing is running into zergs and getting lit up. Far too many freeps and creeps zerg up lately, and all it does is produce angry players on both sides when they get dropped in under 3 seconds. It happens on both sides, and if you think differently, go try the other side. I've seen and killed creeps & freeps who get CC locked down, and have zero chance of survival. My hunter's been pounced and blown up before the pounce wears off. My reaver's been exploded before even standing up after a warden's knockdown. Anyone who thinks life is different on either side, just go try the other side. The only exceptions you'll see are crazy OP champs, BA's, or maybe minstrels. Zergs are not fun atm for either side unless you're on a champ or BA maybe. I've found soloing to be much more enjoyable.


    The change that the Moors really needs (to please the masses imo) is a slower paced DPS system. Fights that used to last 30s-1 minute are 10-15s fights now. My hunter doesn't partake in 1v1s that last 20s+. I'm either dead, or have won. That's fine to me since I like to solo, but for those who like to zerg, that means you're dead in 1s, rather than your healer having a chance to heal you. People don't enjoy that. People (on either side) like to have a fighting chance. It reminds me of the early days of the Moors without diminishing returns where creeps could get perma CCed. It was infuriating. Like my old friend Panahasi says above, when people aren't happy with a system, they'll move on, and alot of people have.
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  11. #11
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    I read your wall of text, yet I fail to see in it what the 'real problem' you refer to actually is?

  12. #12
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Faolian View Post
    Reaver: Erm.... Dying rage (kind of survivability)
    Guaranteed death is kind of surviving how?

  13. #13

    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr View Post
    I do enjoy these biased threads.


    The only classes I've play since the newest update are warg, reaver, or hunter. I can say that PvP in general has gotten much more situational in that planning when and how you attack an enemy means a whole lot more now that the DPS curve has gone up again for both sides. I've fought hunters on my warg who didn't even get a single hit off. I've also been whipped by hunters who get the drop on me. I've fought reavers on my hunter who didn't touch me. I've also been critted to high heavens by a high ranked reaver who dropped me in under 5 seconds. Fights are very situational. If I can get the jump on my hunter it makes a night and day difference in the outcomes of fights. I find that alot of really dumb and poor players on BOTHsides really fail to plan ahead with when and how to attack.


    And I can't stand the whiner creeps who cry about how bad their DPS is when all I see them doing is running into zergs and getting lit up. Far too many freeps and creeps zerg up lately, and all it does is produce angry players on both sides when they get dropped in under 3 seconds. It happens on both sides, and if you think differently, go try the other side. I've seen and killed creeps & freeps who get CC locked down, and have zero chance of survival. My hunter's been pounced and blown up before the pounce wears off. My reaver's been exploded before even standing up after a warden's knockdown. Anyone who thinks life is different on either side, just go try the other side. The only exceptions you'll see are crazy OP champs, BA's, or maybe minstrels. Zergs are not fun atm for either side unless you're on a champ or BA maybe. I've found soloing to be much more enjoyable.


    The change that the Moors really needs (to please the masses imo) is a slower paced DPS system. Fights that used to last 30s-1 minute are 10-15s fights now. My hunter doesn't partake in 1v1s that last 20s+. I'm either dead, or have won. That's fine to me since I like to solo, but for those who like to zerg, that means you're dead in 1s, rather than your healer having a chance to heal you. People don't enjoy that. People (on either side) like to have a fighting chance. It reminds me of the early days of the Moors without diminishing returns where creeps could get perma CCed. It was infuriating. Like my old friend Panahasi says above, when people aren't happy with a system, they'll move on, and alot of people have.
    Selective fighting is fine for freeps, they are only in moors to PvP, but for low rank creeps PvP is just a nuisance that interrupts the PvE to gain rank, the only choice you have is to hug NPCs and stay at rank 1 for ever or go try to quest and accept you will die 100s of times without any chance of fighting back.

    Imagine if they let creeps into Nan Curunir they would kill solo and questing freeps non-stop, that is how it feels to be a creep currently.

  14. #14
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    The real problem is it isn’t being addressed by developers. That’s the real problem, we can pontificate all day about DPS, morale, bubbles, 2nd agers…. It’s been done multiple times. No presentation on the forums is going to address the “real problem”. They have to know it’s not balanced, and are choosing to not do anything or wait to do something. Regardless the answer isn’t another pseudo analysis, the answer to the real problem is the dev’s correcting the imbalances that have been pointed out at nauseam.


  15. #15

    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance


  16. #16
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Sey, you keep arguing about stuff yet are using population imbalanced experiences to make your point. Thus, your point is invalid because anyone who is outnumbered should be losing the fight. Period. Yet as I type this there are Freep classes (Guardian/Minstrel/Champion/Warden/Burglar especially) who are routinely able to take on multiple Creep classes and win/survive.

    I watched a 6.8 morale Burglar beat a team composed of a 17k morale WL'r and a 10k morale Warg with ease.

    I watched a Minstrel blow up 2 Wargs like they were standing still AND THEY WEREN'T.

    These are my gameplay experiences as of ten minutes ago.


    Sorry Sey, but the Creep side gameplay experience is outright atrocious right now.

  17. #17
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    If ur so concerned about balance (there are no mirrored classes, or matchmaking), then just flip to the losing side... nuff said.
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  18. #18
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Speak for yourself Minstrel player. Minstrels are one of the most OP 1v1's classes yet to exist in this game... and they're a soft armour class no less.

    Guardians and Wardens should be the toughest 1v1 classes so I don't blame them for being coded as such. Softies (RK'rs/Minstrels/Burglars/Hunters) should die when outnumbered but most don't.

    And folks wonder why the VAST MAJORITY of ranked Creeps have quit this game...

  19. #19
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Panahasi View Post
    Speak for yourself Minstrel player. Minstrels are one of the most OP 1v1's classes yet to exist in this game... and they're a soft armour class no less.

    Guardians and Wardens should be the toughest 1v1 classes so I don't blame them for being coded as such. Softies (RK'rs/Minstrels/Burglars/Hunters) should die when outnumbered but most don't.

    And folks wonder why the VAST MAJORITY of ranked Creeps have quit this game...
    No one is wondering, most people know. The sad part is the freeps I see seem to think they have a measure of skill, like its some accomplishment to be able to run into OC, bubble and AOE and run out after being hit by 8 NPC's, pounced and hit by a few creeps in the process.

    Creeps know its unbalanced, an honest freep knows its unbalanced the problem is the developers arent fixing it. So anyone who plays should know that going in, particularly if your trying to rank a creep plan to die hundreds of times. If that dosent bother you then it wont be so bad.


  20. #20

    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Firstly, to all those who responded harshly: I never claimed to be eloquent or that this would give you any solutions to PvMP, i agree it is quite a wall of text, but I really felt a need to say something given that I actually heard freeps complaining about creep morale the other day, and saying that it takes forever to kill creeps (and this was from a freep who solely plays minstrel I believe). I just wanted to get the point across that survivability and morale are not always the same, and that freeps are much more suited to surviving in EM. I apologise for an distress this may have caused people as a whole, since the realisation that this is not the ultimate answer could come as quite a shock. I can edit the first post and add 42 in there if you really need.

    Quote Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd View Post
    You could have saved this bunch of useless words and obvious whining and actually address "the real problem with balance". The real problem begins when you try to justify the differences in morale and DPS by comparing the 2 in a linear way. DPS numbers that ignore Finesse, Critical Chance and Critical Multipliers, CC, etc, are misleading at best(pure lying at worst). Same goes for Morale numbers that ignore Armor, Resistances, Range, Defensive Skills, etc. If you take all of these factors into consideration than you'll realize that the notion that "creep morale is balanced against freep dps" is nothing short of cheap propaganda. Once you're able to bypass this key issue, the rest becomes much clearer.
    I never claimed to be an expert. I agree with you, that there are many other factors that affect balance, but i went for the most observed, and centred on the previously mentioned point of those that say "freeps have dps, creeps have morale"

    Stoffi - while i agree that SH is not the strongest skill, it's still a skill that helps you survive in a fight. There would be utterly no point in this if i were only to list which skills are the most OP.

    Squelcher - The point i was generally getting at is that there is more than one problem with balance. Maybe i could have had a better title, but i was never known for spending a long time on titles.

    Ugmo - i stated that i was counting survivability as something that can help you to win the fight, which indeed, the listed skill can. Automatic death afterwards is important, hence why i said "kind of survivability" but ultimately, you can still get a kill because you used that skill.

    Thorgrum - yes, the devs solving the problem is the solution, of course it is, but there is not a whole lot I can do about that one.

    Panhasi - not sure if that is targeted at me or? Yes there are freep classes that can solo multiple creeps, we all hate it too. Must be incredibly boring for them though.

    Also, i recently decided i wasn't bothered at all about ranking anymore, or rating. I try to play for the fun now, and i enjoy it, my complaint was addressed at my experience in EM as such, but at those freep players who deny all knowledge of being OP. I want EM to be more enjoyable for everyone. Maybe i should say PvMP, because a new map would be cool too.

  21. #21
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr View Post
    ...

    The change that the Moors really needs (to please the masses imo) is a slower paced DPS system. Fights that used to last 30s-1 minute are 10-15s fights now. My hunter doesn't partake in 1v1s that last 20s+. I'm either dead, or have won. That's fine to me since I like to solo, but for those who like to zerg, that means you're dead in 1s, rather than your healer having a chance to heal you. People don't enjoy that. People (on either side) like to have a fighting chance. It reminds me of the early days of the Moors without diminishing returns where creeps could get perma CCed. It was infuriating. Like my old friend Panahasi says above, when people aren't happy with a system, they'll move on, and alot of people have.
    I agree. In hindsight we can see that Moria white-washed the color of SOA away. Freep classes are now copies of each other in terms of DPS & survivability, because players wish to level up at the same pace, no matter what class they are playing. Guardians and minstrels these days don't have much in common with the SOA counterparts. Additionally you can no longer make any assumptions to how a fight might play out, because your opponent might just get lucky and drop you down with a few devastating critical hits.

    TL;DR: more predictability in damage boundaries, bring back the distinct properties of the classes
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  22. #22
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Panahasi View Post
    Sey, you keep arguing about stuff yet are using population imbalanced experiences to make your point.


    I watched a 6.8 morale Burglar beat a team composed of a 17k morale WL'r and a 10k morale Warg with ease.
    Don't tell me you were one of these two. I will be sad. No burglar, no matter how good should beat a WL+warg combo. First, burgs can't evade a WL's shout, if the burg just targets the WL the WL needs to attack back, get a crit shout and heal up when able. I could go into this further, but really, if those morale numbers are correct, then they aren't lowbie ranked creeps, and they should know better. They just need to play better and understand how to fight, that's just the hard truth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Panahasi View Post
    I watched a Minstrel blow up 2 Wargs like they were standing still AND THEY WEREN'T.

    Minstrels are OP, no doubt. These sound like bad wargs though. 2 silences, 2 hips, 2 sprints, but still 2 deaths? Sounds like bad players again imo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Panahasi View Post
    Sorry Sey, but the Creep side gameplay experience is outright atrocious right now.

    I agree its tough in situations. Its not as bad as you say it is though. It sounds like you are making generalizations based on really bad players or 1 in 1000 situations.
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  23. #23
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    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Panahasi View Post
    Softies (RK'rs/Minstrels/Burglars/Hunters) should die when outnumbered but most don't.

    Don't put hunters in there. Any 2 creeps who can't kill a hunter are derplings. Its easy to tell you don't have a 75 hunter you run around the moors with. Even though my hunter is pretty well geared, sometimes I get frustrated how fast I die..... to soloers..... let alone groups of 2 or 3+
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  24. #24

    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Quote Originally Posted by klorphaxius View Post
    Yet I still hear freeps complain about SH. It's a good skill, but all it really does is make up for the currently pathetic Warg DPS, maybe once the mitigations are fixed it will have a larger impact...and you're right about that bubble it's more help when running that at any other time.
    You're a warg packer, you don't need that skill. Running is always what you do when I see you anyway. Who needs mitigations in a 1v8? Still you at times, granted.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    AH is about half a freep morale pot. wouldn't call that a survival skill

    If you want to talk about the increased mitigations, pretty much all freep classes have a skill just like that, a skill which gives this and that armour, parry/block boost or whatever for a limited time.

    SH is not a survivability skill.
    It's definitely a dps skill. You'd think at R10 you'd know anything. Continue the QQ baddie.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgray28th View Post
    + rep bro
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000030b05c/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  25. #25

    Re: The real problem with freep/creep balance

    Well 1v1 yes there is a issue, but in groups in riddermark as maybe 1-2 people actually heal out in the moors Freep side and there is plenty of defilers and WL's we have an issue when theyre grouped as they theyre quite skilled and can heal a group easy, Focus fire doesnt work on our side and they just bubble stack heals etc and we normally choose our own targets which generally works well but small groups of creeps vs freeps if the creeps got the right classes they almost always win , yes its a slow death for us but its still annoying having each creep have heals + get bubbled when in trouble =/

    .

 

 
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