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Thread: Resistance

  1. #1
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    Resistance

    The resistance stat in the character panel. Is this for resisting effects only (ie: wounds/fears/etc), or does it apply to all tactical attacks?

    I'm pretty sure its the former but I've been told its the latter. Does anyone know for sure?
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  2. #2

    Re: Resistance

    It's the former, you need tact mitigation for the latter.

  3. #3
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinya View Post
    It's the former, you need tact mitigation for the latter.
    Well tactical mitigation reduces the amount tactical attacks hit for (since tactical attacks are presumably always non-common damage) but afaik doesn't effect how often we resist tactical attacks.

    Obviously we do resist some tactical attacks, but I assume our true resistance to tactical attacks is a fixed value (that we can't change) and is hidden to us.
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  4. #4

    Re: Resistance

    i could be wrong but i was under the impression that tact resist rate for attacks (not effects) were somehow tied to finesse.
    Last edited by pointAnomaly; Nov 29 2011 at 03:52 AM.

  5. #5

    Re: Resistance

    Your finesse reduces your opponent's chance to BPE or resist your attack.

    Conversely, your opponent's finesse reduces your chance to BPE or resist their attacks.
    I want my "The Venomous" title back.

  6. #6
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    Re: Resistance

    In general, skills (including monster skills) will either have a chance to be resisted completely or they can be blocked/parried/evaded. The Lore-masters Burning Embers skill can be resisted and if it is no damage at all is done. Only if it is not then the Tactical mitigation comes into play to reduce the damage.

  7. #7

    Re: Resistance

    So whats better Even? Stacking resist rating or tact mit?

    Your the maths wiz

  8. #8
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    Re: Resistance

    Graal what your basically say is resistance is the way we block spells?

  9. #9
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Graalx2 View Post
    In general, skills (including monster skills) will either have a chance to be resisted completely or they can be blocked/parried/evaded. The Lore-masters Burning Embers skill can be resisted and if it is no damage at all is done. Only if it is not then the Tactical mitigation comes into play to reduce the damage.
    So the question is: Is that chance to be resisted tied to our own Resistance stat, or is it a hidden flat chance like miss chance that is affected by level.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Golledhel View Post
    So the question is: Is that chance to be resisted tied to our own Resistance stat, or is it a hidden flat chance like miss chance that is affected by level.
    ^^^^^^^^ ?
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  11. #11

    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Graalx2 View Post
    In general, skills (including monster skills) will either have a chance to be resisted completely or they can be blocked/parried/evaded. The Lore-masters Burning Embers skill can be resisted and if it is no damage at all is done. Only if it is not then the Tactical mitigation comes into play to reduce the damage.
    So my understanding then would be that our resistance stat is basically the equivallent of BPE if the skill is a tactical attack and there is not a hidden number like there is for miss chances. Can you confirm that?
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  12. #12
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    Re: Resistance

    And while we have your attention regarding resistance, is a mob's full Finesse value subtracted from Resistance similarly to how BPE is handled? (ie: actual resistance chance = resistance % - enemy finesse %).
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  13. #13
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    The resistance stat in the character panel. Is this for resisting effects only (ie: wounds/fears/etc), or does it apply to all tactical attacks?

    I'm pretty sure its the former but I've been told its the latter. Does anyone know for sure?
    It applies to all tactical attacks (that's quite evident when your skill goes "poof" and does nothing), as well as DoTs and other effects. I guess the difference between BPE and Resistance is that BPE is only used against attack attempts (skill uses) whereas Resistance is used both against attack attempts and effects (including every pulse of a DoT).

    Let me relate here they way I've understood the skill structure in lotro and hope that Graalx will be kind enough to correct me if I'm wrong.


    I like to think of a lotro skill as a package with charges. The most simple charge is "damage on contact", if the attack succeeds. The properties of Damage on Contact are things like: amount of damage, type of damage, target radius, max targets. It doesn't leave an icon on the target's vitals since its effect is immediate: a pulse of damage. The skill package itself has properties like: type of skill (melee/ranged/tactical), type of avoidance (BPE or Resist type), skill speed (normal/fast/immediate), max range, number of charges, induction/animation/cooldown/dead times, etc...

    The Charge types for the main skill can therefore be one of:
    - A Damage on contact, or
    - A Heal on contact, and/or
    - One of the timed "effects" listed below,
    - Plus, optionally, one or more sub-skills which can contain the same type of charges as the main skill

    An "Effect" is usually timed, such as:
    - Buff on contact, with duration
    - Debuff on contact, with duration
    - Delayed Damage, with trigger delay
    - Delayed Heal, with trigger delay
    - Delayed Buff, with duration and trigger delay
    - Delayed Debuff, with duration and trigger delay
    - Damage over time (DoT) (which is simply a repeated Delayed Damage, with number of repetitions, or "pulses")
    - Heal over time (HoT) (a repeated Delayed Heal)
    - A delayed sub-skill (e.g. "if still in combat after 30sec, will get a huge disaster to the whole group")


    What we normally call an "effect" is anything that leaves an icon on the vitals, and normally has a duration or delay. Damage on contact and heal on contact are thus not considered effects. Almost all effects can be Resisted (except buffs and HoT's), and are hence implicitly considered "tactical" effects, even if the skill that delivered them is not a tactical skill (eg. an orc archer's Ranged skill can deliver a Wound DoT effect, which can be resisted using Wound Resistance, or a Poison DoT effect which can be resisted using Poison Resistance, etc...). If it can be "resisted", then it is a "tactical" skill or effect. Because melee and ranged attacks are avoided using BPE, not resistance. In fact, I don't know of any melee or ranged "effects" in the sense of a debuff that leaves an icon. However some effects and skills, by design, cannot be resisted or avoided.

    Some "effects" are not timed, but depend on your proximity to the source of the effect such as an object (totem, hotspot or a whole area) or the aura around a mob or other player. In such cases, you generally cannot remove the effect by resisting it or even by attempting to cure it using a potion. You can generally move away from that spot or object to remove the effect.

    An "effect" need not be a single buff or debuff such as -23 Will, but can be a multiple debuff such as: -23 Will, -23 Fate, plus a DoT plus a timed skill which will fire after a certain delay and apply an additional debuff.

    Each skill package, or main skill, can carry an on-contact damage or heal, plus an "effect" which it applies. Compound Skills also carry one or more sub-skills on top of their charge. Sub-skills have the same structure as skills: for example, they can carry a one-shot damage and apply an effect. An example of a compound skill would do one direct damage on contact, and carry a sub-skill which applies an effect such as a DoT and/or a debuff to some stats. Another compound skill could do one heal on contact, apply a HoT effect, and carry a sub-skill which applies a protective morale bubble effect or an effect which buffs Mitigation. The effects will show up as icons under the character's vitals.

    If the main skill package itself misses or is avoided (BPE'd or Resisted) all of its charges (including sub-skills) are also avoided (except for some skills that apply a personal buff which gates the use of other skills). If the skill package hits, its direct on-contact damage or heal, if any, and effect, will be applied. It will then fire off its sub-skills, if any, and every one of the its sub-skills can still miss and be individually avoided (if they're designed to be avoidable).

    Avoiding skills and sub-skills follow the usual rules: Melee and ranged skills and sub-skills are avoided using BPE, while Tactical skills and sub-skills are avoided using Resistance. You can pretty much identify the type of sub-skill from its name in the combat log.

    Further, if the skill or sub-skill hits and delivers its "effect", the effect can be Resisted at regular intervals during its lifetime (provided it's designed to be resistable). Thus, individual DoT pulses can be resisted; a debuff which reduces vitality can be resisted half-way through and prematurely dispelled, etc...

    Having seen debuffs disappear prematurely after a resist leads me to believe that they work this way:

    A debuff is an effect with a duration and an action which occurs at regular intervals. If the action is damage (a DoT), resisting the action will avoid that damage pulse. If the action is a reduction of some stat (armour rend, lower agility, etc...), then resisting the action at the defined interval will actually remove the debuff prematurely. Sometimes you can even dispel a DoT prematurely when you resist it, not just avoid one damage pulse.

    What is defintely missing is a "Partial Resist" mechanism, with damage mitigation, to bring the Resist mechanic on par with the BPE mechanic.


    To summarize:

    A skill can contain: a damage on contact, a heal on contact, an effect, plus optionally one or more sub-skills, which themselves contain one or more of these. Skills containing other skills (sub-skills) are compound skills. Skills, compound skills and sub-skills can be avoided individually. Melee and Ranged skills and sub-skills are avoided using BPE, while Tactical sub-skills are avoided using Resistance of the type the tactical skill or sub-skill specifies. Effects, which are applied by skills or sub-skills, can also be avoided by resisting them with the type of resistance they specify on their icon. Not all skills can be avoided, and not all effects can be resisted.

    There are 8 types of resistances, all based on the single stat called Resistance rating in your character panel. Fortifying food and some player skills can further increase specific types of resistance. The types are: Tactical resistance, Physical resistance, Cry resistance, Song resistance, Wound resistance, Poison resistance, Fear resistance and Disease resistance.

    And finally,
    Elves are immune to Diseases and Poisons, but they aren't in this game.



    Edit: Re-written this post in light of more recent investigations. I bet it's still far from accurate, but perhaps it's better than nothing.
    Last edited by Alad.; Dec 03 2011 at 04:39 AM. Reason: Complete rewrite
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  14. #14
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    Re: Resistance

    However the question is still not answered.

    Say you're a Guardian. You're using all virtues that max out your Resistance stat. Which puts you close to 30% resist chance (against Wound, Fear, Disease, and Poison).

    You're fighting a Rune-keeper. And let's say the Rune-keeper doesn't have Finesse. The Rune-keeper uses, say, Scribe's Spark on you. You resist the attack.

    Scribe's Spark is lightning damage, and is neither Wound, Fear, Disease, or Poison as far as I know. So, how was it resisted?

    Now, Monster Players have Song, Cry, Tactical, and Physical resistances. If the RK attacked a Monster Player, and his Scribe's Spark was resisted, it was because of the Monster Player's Tactical resistance.


    So the question is(or rather, the questions are): Do players also have Song/Cry/Tactical/Physical resistances? And if so, are they tied to to our Resistance stat that affects Wounds/Poisons/Disease/Fear, or are they hidden stats that we have no control over?
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  15. #15
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Alad. View Post
    It applies to all tactical attacks (that's quite evident when your skill goes "poof" and does nothing), as well as DoTs and other effects.
    Do you have a dev quote (or other evidence) to support this claim?



    It was my understanding that the resistance stat in the character panel is purely a combination of the old wound/pois/fear/disease effect resistances (it specifically says your chance to resist effects in the tooltip), and that it has nothing to do with resisting tactical attacks (the chance of which remains fixed and hidden). I haven't seen any official statements that infer otherwise.
    Last edited by Evendale; Nov 30 2011 at 02:46 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Resistance

    yeah, the "resistance" stat on the character sheet replaced the old wound/fear/poison/disease resistance stats, I'd be VERY surprised if it got morphed into a full on tactical resistance stat.

    If it is the case though, then the new fortifying food suddenly looks very good. As I said though, I'd be surprised if this is the case.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    Do you have a dev quote (or other evidence) to support this claim?

    It was my understanding that the resistance stat in the character panel is purely a combination of the old wound/pois/fear/disease effect resistances (it specifically says your chance to resist effects in the tooltip), and that it has nothing to do with resisting tactical attacks (the chance of which remains fixed and hidden). I haven't seen any official statements that infer otherwise.
    Your question, if I understood you correctly, is whether the new rating called "Resistance" is also used to calculate a player's ability to avoid tactical skills, and not just their resistances to effects such as wounds, poisons, diseases and fears. I.e. I assume you're not disputing the fact that player characters can avoid a tactical skill and all its effects by resisting the skill itself, just as they can avoid a melee skill and all its effects by BPE'ing the skill.

    I have no quotes and haven't done specific testing, but a hint:

    The Resistance tooltip says: "Provides a chance of avoiding ALL effects."

    Is "daze" an effect? Take the example of a tactical skill that has only one effect: Blinding Flash. If you resist/avoid the application of the daze effect (i.e. it never even gets applied to you), are you not resisting/avoiding the skill itself? But more importantly, what resistance are you using to resist the daze effect? Surely not Wound/Fear/Disease/Poison resistance, since Blinding Flash requires Physical Resistance to be avoided. Hence, the daze effect itself being the only effect in that package, also requires Physical resistance. Hence, the new Resistance value, since it allows you to avoid all effects including daze, is also the base rating used for your Physical resistance.

    You can apply the same logic to Tactical resistance, Cry Resistance and Song resistance, the other 3 resistances used to avoid/resist the tactical skills themselves (i.e. the tactical attacks).

    But our dev can shed more light on this issue, ofc.



    PS:
    We don't know how mob skills are labelled, i.e. do they require Tactical/Physical/Cry/Song Resistance to be avoided, like player skills? Or do they require only Wound/Poison/Disease/Fear resistance to be avoided? If the latter, then the question is answered, and the ambiguity, if any, only lies during spars.
    Last edited by Alad.; Nov 30 2011 at 03:08 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Resistance

    Resistance is used to avoid Tactical skills. Thats the general rule. Just as some skills can not be blocked/parried/evaded, some Tactical skills have no Resist check.

    Resistance includes all of the player based resistance types like Song and Physical, they are not displayed because it only matters for Sparring.

    Resistance is also used to resist ongoing effects like DoTs. Some effects are removed if they are resisted on a pulse, some are not. It depends on the effect.

  19. #19
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Graalx2 View Post
    Resistance is used to avoid Tactical skills. Thats the general rule. Just as some skills can not be blocked/parried/evaded, some Tactical skills have no Resist check.

    Resistance includes all of the player based resistance types like Song and Physical, they are not displayed because it only matters for Sparring.

    Resistance is also used to resist ongoing effects like DoTs. Some effects are removed if they are resisted on a pulse, some are not. It depends on the effect.
    I'm confused, didn't you just say resistances are used to avoid tactical skills? But then you go on to say physical as well. Or is physical used here in a different context?

    It doesn't just matter for sparring, though, right? There's PVMP where in some cases resistances make all the difference in the world... ?

  20. #20
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Estranger View Post
    I'm confused, didn't you just say resistances are used to avoid tactical skills? But then you go on to say physical as well. Or is physical used here in a different context?

    It doesn't just matter for sparring, though, right? There's PVMP where in some cases resistances make all the difference in the world... ?
    Physical attacks that have effects with them like Stagger or hunter's low cut can have the slow effect resisted even if the melee attack isn't avoided or missed.
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  21. #21
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    Re: Resistance

    I think you're just making the confusion worse!

    There's three basic questions that are being addressed too obliquely...

    1) Does resistance help you avoid/shake off status effects (ie debuffs with icons) such as wound, fear, poison, silence, etc.? I'm pretty sure the answer there is yes
    2) Does resistance help you avoid direct tactical attacks such as enemy fire/lightning damage attacks? The dev posts only mention player tactical attacks like Song or Burning Embers. Does the Resistance stat help you avoid analogous attacks by monsters as well?
    3) Does Resistance only protect from special attacks, or does it help you avoid autoattacks with Fire/Lightning/Frost/Shadow/etc. damage as well? I would imagine those are still considered melee attacks and would fall under BPE avoidance, but I could see it being either way...

  22. #22
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    I think you're just making the confusion worse!

    There's three basic questions that are being addressed too obliquely...

    1) Does resistance help you avoid/shake off status effects (ie debuffs with icons) such as wound, fear, poison, silence, etc.? I'm pretty sure the answer there is yes
    2) Does resistance help you avoid direct tactical attacks such as enemy fire/lightning damage attacks? The dev posts only mention player tactical attacks like Song or Burning Embers. Does the Resistance stat help you avoid analogous attacks by monsters as well?
    3) Does Resistance only protect from special attacks, or does it help you avoid autoattacks with Fire/Lightning/Frost/Shadow/etc. damage as well? I would imagine those are still considered melee attacks and would fall under BPE avoidance, but I could see it being either way...
    • Resistance rating gives you a chance of avoiding physical effects (stun/root/silence/slow) as well as tactical effects (fear/wound/poison/disease) and it also acts as the sole avoidance of tactical attacks (just as b/p/e works for physical attacks).
    • Resistance rating includes (but does not display) both 'song' and 'cry' which you can find on any number of non-weapon based skills (such as Minstrel songs or Guardian shouts).
    • You do not get b/p/e avoidance against tactical attacks. It is all based on Resistance rating and therefore tactical attacks will never let you use reactive skills.
    • Some physical/tactical effects that last for a duration, and apply effects (usually damage) on pulses, can be re-checked each pulse for a 'resist' and a chance to nullify the remainder of the duration.

  23. #23

    Re: Resistance

    With the RoI stat consolidation I think there's a bit of confusion since there's basically now 2 types of "tactical" effects. One is the tactical damage check for mitigating non-common damage, the other is player "tactical" type attacks.

    If you go look at creepside vendor sold effect removal potions they are paired up to remove "wound and physical" or "fear and song" effects. I may have the pairings off, I don't play creepside regularly, but each of the 4 potions remove 1 type of npc/creep effect (wound disease poison fear) and 1 type of freep effect (physical tactical song cry.)

    Creep effects are all fear/disease/wound/poison based, so like Graal said, the other 4 only matter for sparring, similar to why you don't see your beleriand/westernesse/ADM/light damage mitigations anywhere - they're almost exclusively relevant to sparring because no npcs or creeps can use them. (although there are a few mobs that reflect damage back at you in the type that is dealt, so if you're doing westernesse they'll reflect westernesse back at you.)
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  24. #24

    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Estranger View Post
    I'm confused, didn't you just say resistances are used to avoid tactical skills? But then you go on to say physical as well. Or is physical used here in a different context?

    It doesn't just matter for sparring, though, right? There's PVMP where in some cases resistances make all the difference in the world... ?
    Theres 8 different resistances in the game that I know of:
    Wound/Disease/Poison/Fear we're all familiar with these.

    Song- Used to resist song based attacks, I believe certain Burglar and Mini skills are based on this. Might be some others.
    Cry- All Taunts have a cry resist check iirc, also skills like Piercing Cry, Cry of the Predator, etc.
    Physical- Roots and Slows check against this, also certain Dazes like Blinding Flash, Distracting Shot, Dazing Blow, as well as certain non-removable bleeds like Barbed Arrow.
    Tactical- Basically any tactical skill checks against this unless it says Song or Cry as the resistance.

    To check what resistance a skill uses just look at the tooltip, it will have a line that says Resistance: XYZ where XYZ is one of the 8 types listed.

    If I'm reading Graalx2 correctly he simply means that the chance of resisting any one of these 8 types is equal to your Resistance rating
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  25. #25
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    Re: Resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by socom33 View Post
    If I'm reading Graalx2 correctly he simply means that the chance of resisting any one of these 8 types is equal to your Resistance rating
    I would say this is most likely the case.

 

 
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