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  1. #126

    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    ...we no longer have a dedicated buffing and pets trait line like the old Leader of Men...
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. "Lead the Charge" has almost as much focus on pets as an LM's "The Keeper of Animals". Although KoA sounds like it should be all about pets, it actually only has 2 traits that buff pets, and 6 that boost healing. Likewise, our pet trait line has 2 that buff pets, and 6 that buff DPS. Also, both of our pet line capstones boost our pets significantly.

    If we trait Loyalty, Precise Ally, and Master of War, our pets get:
    • +60% Damage
    • +35% Morale
    • -5% Incoming Damage
    • +3% Evade
    That's definitely a pet trait line. The pet focus is secondary, but it's clearly there.
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  2. #127
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    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    why extra?
    either you have oathbreaker armaments with you or the standard herald aramaments.. they both take up the same space..
    Extra because it is silly to keep a second armament, even in the bank,( 'cause my bank is always full) just to get an extra 15 armor for your herald. That's assuming that you even want to run back to the bank every time you retrait to get the other armament.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philosomanic View Post
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. "Lead the Charge" has almost as much focus on pets as an LM's "The Keeper of Animals". Although KoA sounds like it should be all about pets, it actually only has 2 traits that buff pets, and 6 that boost healing. Likewise, our pet trait line has 2 that buff pets, and 6 that buff DPS. Also, both of our pet line capstones boost our pets significantly.

    If we trait Loyalty, Precise Ally, and Master of War, our pets get:
    • +60% Damage
    • +35% Morale
    • -5% Incoming Damage
    • +3% Evade

    That's definitely a pet trait line. The pet focus is secondary, but it's clearly there.
    I admit that I forgot about the Master of War pet buffs. It has been a very long time since I have traited. for LtC and pet use. Doesn't it just add the +3% evade and -5% damage reduction? Loyalty is a far better trait.

    Frankly, I don't like having the pet buffing traits in LtC. I find my herald and archer to be far more useful when traited HoH and soloing than I do in LtC and soloing. Looking at the LM pet line, it boosts healing because LM's uses their pets as tanks and they need to be able to heal the pet. The additional healing capacity from running HoH combined with +20% incoming healing from Shield Brother makes the herald or archer much more durable and useful as an off-tank than the anemic Master of War buff.

    When they revamped Leader of Men to be a tanking trait I think they just didn't know what else to do with our pets. They wrapped a pet buff into Master of War and moved Loyalty and Precise Ally into LtC for lack of a better option. You can argue that the traits, one of them anyway, are a DPS boost and belong in LtC. And that holds true for leveling a captain when your gear is sub-optimal. Having that archer along to add DPS and act as a blade-brother target is extremely useful. But once we are all at cap and wielding 2nd and 1st age weapons, I have a hard time believing that running with the archer will hold any DPS benefit apart form being that target for Sword Brother, or for tackling some specific situations where a ranged damage pet comes in handy.
    Last edited by SGWB; Dec 09 2011 at 02:31 PM.
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  3. #128
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    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    Extra because it is silly to keep a second armament, even in the bank,( 'cause my bank is always full) just to get an extra 15 armor for your herald. That's assuming that you even want to run back to the bank every time you retrait to get the other armament.
    why would i need any other armament? why would i want to run with a herald when not traited 5 into LtC Oo
    it seems pointless to me to use a herald when not traited for using a herald

    the master of war trait adds 25% damage 15% morale and 3% evade btw
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Dec 09 2011 at 02:48 PM.
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  4. #129

    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    I admit that I forgot about the Master of War pet buffs. It has been a very long time since I have traited. for LtC and pet use. Doesn't it just add the +3% evade and -5% damage reduction? Loyalty is a far better trait.

    Frankly, I don't like having the pet buffing traits in LtC. I find my herald and archer to be far more useful when traited HoH and soloing than I do in LtC and soloing. Looking at the LM pet line, it boosts healing because LM's uses their pets as tanks and they need to be able to heal the pet. The additional healing capacity from running HoH combined with +20% incoming healing from Shield Brother makes the herald or archer much more durable and useful as an off-tank than the anemic Master of War buff.

    When they revamped Leader of Men to be a tanking trait I think they just didn't know what else to do with our pets. They wrapped a pet buff into Master of War and moved Loyalty and Precise Ally into LtC for lack of a better option. You can argue with the traits, one of them anyway, are a DPS boost and belong in LtC. And that holds true for leveling a captain when your gear is sub-optimal. Having that archer along to add DPS and act as a blade-brother target is extremely useful. But once we are all at cap and wielding 2nd and 1st age weapons, I have a hard time believing that running with the archer will hold any DPS benefit apart form being that target for Sword Brother, or for tackling some specific situations where a ranged damage pet comes in handy.
    Yes, as mentioned above, Master of War gives:
    +25% Damage
    +15% Morale
    +3% Evade

    I sincerely hope they keep this effect in there. Archers are a fair contribution to solo DPS, and I always use them as a target for Blade-Brother. Archers only make sense while soloing, and MoW is the captain's most powerful traitline for soloing; LoM depends on having someone to heal you, and HoH depends on having someone to heal. These bonuses wouldn't really make sense for a group-centric build, because herald DPS is a drop in the ocean in a raid.

    However, as you pointed out 15% or 20% damage on a herald is not a very good DPS trait. I personally use Loyalty while soloing, because the 15% DPS and survival boosts are nice for keeping my herald alive, but these are next to worthless for grouping.

    Someone else has pointed out the option of merging Loyalty and Precise Ally, and I definitely agree with that. Giving my herald +40% Damage, + 10% Morale and -5% Incoming Damage would be a much more powerful trait. Also, I like the idea of a new offensive trait to fill the newly-freed slot.
    Last edited by Philosomanic; Dec 09 2011 at 02:18 PM.
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  5. #130
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    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    why would i need any other armament? why would i want to run with a herald when not traited 5 into LtC Oo
    it seems pointless to me to use a herald when not traited for using a herald

    the master of war trait adds 25% damage 15% morale and 3% evade btw
    Quote Originally Posted by Philosomanic View Post
    Yes, as mentioned above, Master of War gives:
    +25% Damage
    +15% Morale
    +3% Evade

    I sincerely hope they keep this effect in there. Archers are a fair contribution to solo DPS, and I always use them as a target for Blade-Brother. Archers only make sense while soloing, and MoW is the captain's most powerful traitline for soloing; LoM depends on having someone to heal you, and HoH depends on having someone to heal. These bonuses wouldn't really make sense for a group-centric build, because herald DPS is a drop in the ocean in a raid.

    However, as you pointed out 15% or 20% damage on a herald is not a very good DPS trait. I personally use Loyalty while soloing, because the 15% DPS and survival boosts are nice for keeping my herald alive, but these are next to worthless for grouping.

    Someone else has pointed out the option of merging Loyalty and Precise Ally, and I definitely agree with that. Giving my herald +40% Damage, + 10% Morale and -5% Incoming Damage would be a much more powerful trait. Also, I like the idea of a new offensive trait to fill the newly-freed slot.
    I had not realized they had included such a boost to pets in the MoW capstone. I don't recall it being written in the dev diaries and release notes, which I always read. But I apparently never bothered to read the Master of War tooltip. That was my mistake and I apologize for it.

    I frequently have my herald or archer out when solo, regardless of my traiting. I also frequently run solo skirmishes in HoH because it is a strategy that I have found to work well. So, it behooves me to carry armaments all the time. Since the reinforced Westfold armaments are so close in effectiveness to the oathbreakers, I see no need to keep the oathbreakers armaments around, even in the bank.

    My problem with the way LtC works with pets is that it is pretty much tailor made for Archers and their DPS, but it neglects the Heralds. That's fine for when you want to just burn stuff down with the archer. But when my strategy is to use the herald as an off-tank, I find it far more effective to be in HoH to be able to heal effectively, rather than MoW and hope my herald has enough moral to outlast a mob. I'd prefer that turbine were to remove the pet buffs from the Master of War capstone trait and roll the buffs into Loyalty and Precise Ally. Then I'd like some real differentiation of abilities for the Heralds of War, Victory, and Hope. It would not harm LtC at all to do that and allow pets to be more effective for captains who prefer to solo in HoH or LoM.
    Last edited by SGWB; Dec 09 2011 at 04:52 PM.
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  6. #131
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    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    ~750 morale (not counting crits) every 15 seconds aren't worth a trait slot? that's more than the shield brother inspire can deliver
    some other classes would kill to have even one such self heal
    you sir puzzle me

    no wonder you seem to think captain self healing is low

    by my count it's second only to minstrels and wardens.. and wardens have to severely gimp their dps to surpass captain self healing

    oh you could of course count rune keepers.. but in order to surpass captain self healing rune keepers would have to deal almost no damage at all
    /sigh

    I don't know why you Captains keep harping on me about this.

    Look, if you think Captain self-healing is good then fine, self-heal away but I don't.

    Perhaps a Leader of Men Captain who stacks mitigation and teams up Muster Courage with his Shield Brother Inspire could make a good self-healing build - but HoH, nope - not impressed and the self-heals it has just aren't going to keep you up against something tough.

    And yeah, that's exactly what i've already said. Wardens, Ministrels, and Rune Keepers all have better self heals than the Captain. So I'm glad we agree.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Dec 09 2011 at 06:24 PM.

  7. #132
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    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Wardens, Ministrels, and Rune Keepers all have better self heals than the Captain. So I'm glad we agree.
    which i basically just said they don't
    only minstrels can actually self heal well while maintaining a good level of dps
    neither wardens nor rune keepers can do that and maintain good dps at the same time
    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c0000000b36d8/signature.png]Slartibart[/charsig]
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  8. #133
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    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    which i basically just said they don't
    only minstrels can actually self heal well while maintaining a good level of dps
    neither wardens nor rune keepers can do that and maintain good dps at the same time
    I never said anything about dps...

    All I did was say they have better self-heals, which you just agreed to. The fact this may or may not be at the expense of their DPS really has absolutely nothing to do with anythign I have said.

    I repeatidly point out that is one the Captain's strong suits on this forum, their ability to both heal and dps at the same time. So if you are trying to tell me they are good at healing while dpsing, you wont' get much argument out of me on that score.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Dec 09 2011 at 05:45 PM.

  9. #134
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    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I never said anything about dps...
    but i did.. you see in order to solo difficult content you need some dps.. or the mob will never drop.. so to argue that RKs and wardens have better self heals while sacrificing most or all of their dps is kinda moot in this regard
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Dec 09 2011 at 07:49 PM.
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  10. #135
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    Thumbs up Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    Oathbreaker armaments do not make your herald or archer signature. The only thing the armament does is add armor. People frequently confuse the oathbreaker armament's effects to the various traits that improve our pets, especially the previous Leader of Men capstone that included a minor pet buff and was required in order to equip the oathbreaker armament. But now, the Oathbreaker armament requires the Leader of Men capstone and includes no pet buff.
    Ahhh. Thanks for that clarification! I didn't realize it was the trait that made the difference. My mistake. I appreciate it!
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  11. #136
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    Re: Dunlending War Dog for Captain New Pet

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    but i did.. you see in order to solo difficult content you need some dps.. or the mob will never drop.. so to argue that RKs and wardens have better self heals while sacrificing most or all of their dps is kinda moot in this regard
    I know you did, BUT I DIDN'T. That is the point. You are aruging with me about something I never said...so may as well go stand in front of a mirror and debate with yourself if that's the case.

    And now you are trying to prove my factual assertions about other healing classes having better self-heals "moot" by attaching a DPS context to what I said that never existed in the first place. And worst than that, it's a silly context that doesn't even make sense. Wardens can solo things a Captain could only dream of. So the fact they have better self-heals than a Captain certainly doesn't mean they can't solo difficult content because they have less DPS. So not only are you arguing with me over something I never said, but you are using a make-believe premis that is false on it's face to try and do it with.

    Just admit other healing classes have better self-heals than us - which is all I said, and leave it at that. I was never arguing Captains were not good at healing and DPSing at the same time, because they clearly are, and I never said otherwise.

    .
    Last edited by Jeremi; Dec 10 2011 at 12:59 AM.

  12. #137
    I know what you mean, you want a melee pet with high damage and survivability. I send my oathbreaker herald of war with buffs to attack a green enemy. The herald died.
    Maybe, instead of a dog, we could have swordsman pet or shield bearer pet?

  13. #138
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    forum necromancy is my favorite type of magic!


    until i master alchemy, that is! i WILL turn lead to gold! (or straw... or smurfs...)
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    "I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me

  14. #139
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    I would prefer a Rohirrim Soldier herald skin
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    My presence fills the desert, my spirit never dies![/i][/color][/center]
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