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  1. #1

    My kind of Warden

    "Oh great, another thread about how to fix the warden class".

    Hello everyone, my name Iznogoot. Warden is my main toon, and boy how I love this class. And yes, this is definitely another thread about how to fix the Warden class. But before flaming my thread, please at least hear me out why I love this class.

    Warden is awesome. He is righteous, courageous, skillful and the most versatile warrior on the battlefield. He protects those who can not defend themselves, wearing nothing but leather armor, charging the battlefield with a spear, a shield, his javelins and his courage. How awesome is that?

    LOTRO had the right idea when they created this class: they wanted a versatile class so they created the gambit system, where you can use any kind of skills depending on the order of your gambits. Warden depends on his skill, and his courage to fight and tank so they make him with the intention of using self buff (b/p/e buffs) and morale regen. The 3 trait lines are supposed to be based on DPS, Heal, and Threat. But there are some flaws in their design from the beginning, in concept and in gameplay.

    Let me point it out:
    _ Gambit system is great, but it has one flaw: the more advanced the gambits are, the longer it take to execute. Ultimately, the gambits will be too complicated and clustered and the rewards are not worth the troubles. They compensated this by implementing Gambit Masteries, but seriously, the induction is too long, and by the time we executed them, the enemy have already 1 or 2 steps ahead. For a DPS warden, taking 3-5 gambits to do a decent damage hit on your target is simply not efficient, and that is completely backward with a warden's motto: efficient and skillful. For a threat/tanking warden, try to gain threat, buff yourself, try to self-heal all the while maintaining threat; all that while pumping gambits, is not efficient. Especially with how they scale (or rather, not scale) threat and the morale regen rating.

    My solution to this, is to let the masteries be active even out of combat, and a warden should be able to "warm up" before combat, self-buffing for b/p/e, and always initiate a battle with spear. Depending on trait line, spears should have different effects, which I would explain later. DPS, Morale regen and threat should be scaled up, depending on trait line they should have a total differernt scale than when not being traited.

    That moves us to the second flaw of the warden class: the trait lines, especially blue and yellow are so not as unique as they should be. The way I visualize it, the trait line should have been such as so:

    _ Spear line:

    A warden is skillful and a master of maneuver

    Spearline, red line, or dps line, should focus on javelin for more damage. This line should focus more on debuffs, skirmish skills, and javelin skills. A warden on the offensive should utilize their most deadly weapon: the javelin and should always initiate it in combat. And as he doesn't have to protect anyone, he should use his versatility, his precision with a weapon to his advantage.
    When traiting Spear line, warden should have the option to:
    + Increase spear range (but not as far as a hunter's bow range)
    + Hugely increased in damage (javenlin should be the main weapon for warden when pvmp or sparring in dps mode, not spear, for javelin should be the most deadly weapon in the hand of a skillful warrior).
    + DoTs and bonus damage for both spear and javelin dots
    + Ability to use poison in weapons (which would further more put DoTs on the oponent)
    + Javelin skills, aside from Slow effect, should also have Root effect. If a hunter can AOE root a group of opponents with arrows, there is no reason why a warden can not impale 1 single opponent to the ground with his deadly javelin. And since a javelin is 10 times bigger than an arrow, they should have a prolong root effect comparing to arrows. The effect should be 40s and the target can not move even when being attacked.
    When engage in melee combat in spear line, a warden should be able to:
    + Debuff opponent armor
    + Apply bleeds
    + Chance to start fellowship maneuver when using critical strike on a stunned opponent. A warden is a master of maneuver. He should have the ability to start a FM when traited right. I think it would be best if we implement this into warden Critical Strike skill. If traited 2 spears, warden should have 25% chance to start FM when hitting stunned opponent with CS. 40% with 3, and 55% with 4. Ofcourse, giving that warden doesn't have a skill with 100% stun chance (the boot only gives 25% stun chance, and Boar's Rush is also not 100%), and the fact that there is an "immune to stun" buff for mob after being stunned, to successfully execute an FM, the warden has to work with another class.

    To sum it up, spear line should be about debuff, bleeds and javelin. A warden traited in this line when going out to the moors should have no problem single targeting a mob, root/stun them, get close and apply bleed/debuff, and run away, which is the perfect strategy for a skilled skirmisher. Ambusher is nice, but is not enough. In a group, dps warden can help debuff, dps, apply massive bleed on target, and start FMs. How to scale this trait line, is really up to the devs. Spear line is associated with might, and should focus on heavily buffing the warden with evade rating, not parry (when you sneak in for an attack, hit your opponent at a vulnerable spot, do you evade or parry?). Way of the spear Legendary trait should also have increased crit ratings.

    Moving on to blue and yellow line. Before we start, let me make a notion that the yellow line and blue line that we currently have, makes no sense. Some people even consider yellow line useless.
    _ Shield line:

    A warden is courageous. He protects those who can't protect themselves

    The blue line have had so many criticism, so I won't even go into detail. One thing for sure, a scale up for morale heal is a must. There is one thing I'd like to change about this trait line, one might upset some wardens, but is essential to making this trait line distinct from fist line, is that conviction should not have the aoe threat effect anymore. Conviction should stack up (it is not, at the moment), and act as a group heal skill that a warden can spam. Ofcourse, giving that it is a healing skill, it will still have threat, but not as much as it is right now. A shield traited warden should be:
    + A decent healer with decent group heal
    + A buffer, which gives group buffs on physical and tactical mitigation, block rating and maybe incoming heal rating.
    + One who has huge self buff on Block rating, incoming healing rating, outcoming healing rating, and self-heal
    + A 1 target tanker, with ability to self heal and buff group.
    In a group, a shield traited warden is reliable for healing and buffing, and is quite self sufficient in tanking single or a few mobs. In solo, a shield traited warden should be able to self heal through any kind of difficulty. Shield line should be associated with will (or might?), and Way of the Shield trait should have enormous increase in block rating for the warden.

    _ Fist Line

    A warden is righteous and master of fear

    Multi tanking has been the strong and weak point of a warden all the same. Warden can grab threat from any kind of tank, but they can't take and endure the damage dealt from mobs. When ganged up, warden either have to kite, or stay and rely on healer to pump every heal possible their way. Self buffing is not fast enough to give warden their extra b/p/e ratings, or when self-heal, doesnt give them their morale back fast enough. Comparing to a Guardian's taunt, warden simply don't have as great the range nor the instant threat steal. In my opinion, this trait line should be rebuilt so that:
    + Javelin skill, when traited yellow, will have great threat. Depending on what kind of javelin skills, it either have single target threat or multiple target threat. With about 4 different javelins, the warden can single target and pull 4 different mobs as he will. Or with the deadly jav skill, will pull a whole group. This will help greatly for a warden to initiate a battle, grab threat instantly and effectively, or if he is off-tanking, can range select target from a group of mobs without stealing aggro from the whole group.
    + For a multi mob tanking, warden should have increased leech rating (naturally)
    + Enormous Parry and Evade rating buffs, as well as great buff for block ratings
    + Gambit Masteries should be active in and out of combat. A warden should be able to warm up and self buff on BPE before engage into combat, and their buffs should last longer. Along with a decent (not heal traited) self heal and aoe threat skills, they should survive longer in the battle field as a main tank.
    + As master of maneuver and fear, a warden should be able to dumb threat as will onto a single target (namely a guardian) when traited yellow. This should make them more versatile as an off-tank. I know that deflection is a threat transfer skill, but transfer to whom? The warden simply drop threat against 1 single target but where does the target go after when he drops the threat? The way I see it, is the warden should be able to run around the room, aoe and grab the strayed mobs, run back to guardian, dumb the mobs on him. And if needed be, warden can pick up single targets and tank them, sharing the damage with main tank. A more easy way to CC is, to gather them up, dump threat on guardian, and aoe fear all of them, effectively reducing incoming damage to 1/3 or 1/4 for a period of time. The gambit use for Threat Dumb, or let's call it Tag-team, should be Fist Shield Spear Fist Shield, and then click on the guardian and execute the gambit. Desolation, when traited 5 yellows, should have more chance to fear, and have more targets.
    + Warden should have 25% chance of stun immunity when equiping 2 yellow, 50% with 3, and 75% with 4 yellows. The most annoying thing when tanking mobs, is that they take turns stunning you, and being a gambit user, a warden really doesn't have any special skills like champion to break stun, and thus loosing aggro and get the whole group killed. A medium armor warrior and master of maneuver should have less chance getting stunned anyways, since they should be able to dodge a blunt and heavy weapon better than a heavy armor warrior does.
    + When tanking in yellow traited line, warden should have increased incoming healing rating from Fist Line. This would get them better healing from healers without relying on gears.
    As a main tank, warden should have the ability to survive longer while having more incoming healing rating, better BPE, and the ability to fear mobs to reduce incoming damage. They can grab threat better with spears and more selective on targets, initiate battle faster. They'll have ability to self buff before battle which would also be important to their survivability. As an off-tank, a warden can coordinate with a guard or a champ and be in control of the tide, being able to gain threat quickly and dump it also as quickly. Hopefully, it will make warden a worthwhile tank, not as sturdy and durable as the guardian, but with a few tricks up his sleeves, he can maintain a trustworthy tanking spot in his fellowship/kinship.

    I do write a lot, and it seems like I ask a lot. But think about it, it's not too much, and it really is how I see a warden should be. If you think that my kind of warden is such a mashed up of guardian, champ, captain, burglar, hunter,.... you are half right. Warden should be that versatile, but at the same time, due to their gambit system, they don't play like other class at all.
    Again, above are just my suggestions. I have not gone into the detail of how much morale or bpe ratings should be, for that is up to the dev to figure out.

    If you would like to comment on my post, please reply, I'd love to hear your opinion of pros/cons. If you want to build your own kinda warden, please make your own threat. Thank you all and to all the warden out there, don't lose hope in our class.

  2. #2
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    Re: My kind of Warden

    I live by a code. I can't meme one and not the other.


  3. #3
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    Re: My kind of Warden

    A lot of the specifics are overpowered, but I like the idea of the mixed range/melee combat.

    For fist line, the stun immunity thing is kinda overpowered and won't work. I'd much rather see a -dev/crit magnitude passive on ranks in fist line, and see fist line move more towards AoE DoT DPS.

  4. #4

    Re: My kind of Warden

    I guess you and I started writing our threads about the same time

    Some great ideas, I love:

    + Ability to use poison in weapons (which would further more put DoTs on the opponent).

    Having 4 or 5 different poisons which could be swapped at will would be pretty cool.

    + Warden should have 25% chance of stun immunity when equiping 2 yellow, 50% with 3, and 75% with 4 yellows.

    Why not go for 100% with the Yellow capstone too!

    + A warden should be able to warm up and self buff on BPE before engage into combat, and their buffs should last longer.

    Seems crazy that we can't do this already given how badly we get beaten in the first 20 seconds.

  5. #5

    Re: My kind of Warden

    Meh. I personally am fine with the Warden where it is minus the Mitigation Issues. Pre-RoI I was a great tank. I very rarely had any issues, and everything worked great. I don't want them to change this much stuff to the class.

    As for building Gambits out of combat... no. I have said it many times and I will say it again. This will make things way too easy. Learn to adapt when entering combat. If we were able to have Shield Mastery, Dance of War, Wall of Steel, etc., up all the time before we even entered combat, it would take away from the fun of deciding which Gambits to use at which times. Solo combat is already easy as it is... being able to buff ourselves before combat would just make it a cake-walk.

  6. #6
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    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilksie View Post
    I guess you and I started writing our threads about the same time

    Some great ideas, I love:

    + Ability to use poison in weapons (which would further more put DoTs on the opponent).

    Having 4 or 5 different poisons which could be swapped at will would be pretty cool.

    + Warden should have 25% chance of stun immunity when equiping 2 yellow, 50% with 3, and 75% with 4 yellows.

    Why not go for 100% with the Yellow capstone too!

    + A warden should be able to warm up and self buff on BPE before engage into combat, and their buffs should last longer.

    Seems crazy that we can't do this already given how badly we get beaten in the first 20 seconds.
    Poisons shouldn't go in - they are in no way part of Lore, they are a tool of Sauron.
    (Light and Fire Oils are fine)

    I doubt they will ever give us Stun Immunity and even if they do, it will be just that - it won't apply to Knockdowns/Stuns just like our current Shield Tactics one doesn't.

    Being able to prepare for combat is something I completely agree with though

  7. #7
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    Re: My kind of Warden

    I agree with being able to set up a gambit out of combat, but not execute it. Let masteries be used any time.

  8. #8
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    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrendos View Post
    As for building Gambits out of combat... no. I have said it many times and I will say it again. This will make things way too easy. Learn to adapt when entering combat. If we were able to have Shield Mastery, Dance of War, Wall of Steel, etc., up all the time before we even entered combat, it would take away from the fun of deciding which Gambits to use at which times. Solo combat is already easy as it is... being able to buff ourselves before combat would just make it a cake-walk.
    How about specific (even a (as in 1)) Out-of-Combat Gambit(s)/Skill(s) called Preparation that gives us some limited level of buff for 10-20 seconds, perhaps effect-based on our Capstones?
    -Shield = Crit Defence (Immunity? Remember this would only be a short term buff that can only be applied out of combat)
    -Fist = +Threat/Damage Reflection/Aura like Warden's Challenge
    -Spear = Reduced Threat/+Damage

  9. #9
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    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by geoboy View Post
    I agree with being able to set up a gambit out of combat, but not execute it. Let masteries be used any time.
    Or this ^^

    Basically a single Out of Combat Battle Mastery.

  10. #10

    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    I live by a code. I can't meme one and not the other.
    If you don't like this thread, door is that way =>
    Noone is force feeding this down your throat.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoboy View Post
    A lot of the specifics are overpowered, but I like the idea of the mixed range/melee combat.

    For fist line, the stun immunity thing is kinda overpowered and won't work. I'd much rather see a -dev/crit magnitude passive on ranks in fist line, and see fist line move more towards AoE DoT DPS.
    The important thing is scaling. The Fist line is already AoE DoT. DPS is not really an issue when your main purpose is tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenaril View Post
    Poisons shouldn't go in - they are in no way part of Lore, they are a tool of Sauron.
    (Light and Fire Oils are fine)
    I aggree. Poison should not go on the menu. But more DoTs from jav skills would be nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrendos View Post
    Meh. I personally am fine with the Warden where it is minus the Mitigation Issues. Pre-RoI I was a great tank. I very rarely had any issues, and everything worked great. I don't want them to change this much stuff to the class.

    As for building Gambits out of combat... no. I have said it many times and I will say it again. This will make things way too easy. Learn to adapt when entering combat. If we were able to have Shield Mastery, Dance of War, Wall of Steel, etc., up all the time before we even entered combat, it would take away from the fun of deciding which Gambits to use at which times. Solo combat is already easy as it is... being able to buff ourselves before combat would just make it a cake-walk.
    I posted this on another post, but I'll repost it here again. I still play my warden everyday, and great at it. As maintank, I do take more damage and feel kinda squishy when being mobbed, but I make do due to the great pool of morale and my healer's ability to spam every kind of heals my way. But it shouldn't be that way. Most of the time I would off-tank and work with a guard. Pulling stray mobs, single target and pull on specific Lts, kite when have to. Kiting, in some skirm raids like Battle in the tower, or Strike Against Dannenglor, or even at Helegrod: Spider, is a must. And no one can do it better than wardens, with our ability to do great aoe threat while running. As in Draigoch runs, I have no problem being main tank. So most of the time, I don't have a problem playing a warden.
    But I do get frustrated sometimes when I do have to pull mobs and have to stand to fight them, since most of the time, that is the job of a main tank. Like you said, mitigations are our main problem. Being able to buff ourselves up before combat, and have an extented duration of the buffs, IMO, is gonna get rid of this problem. The only buffs you can execute before going into combat are mostly shield mastery, dance of war, and shield tactic btw. Wall of Steel still require you to hit a target to execute it.

  11. #11
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    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by Iznogoot View Post
    If you don't like this thread, door is that way =>
    Noone is force feeding this down your throat.


    The important thing is scaling. The Fist line is already AoE DoT. DPS is not really an issue when your main purpose is tanking.



    I aggree. Poison should not go on the menu. But more DoTs from jav skills would be nice.



    I posted this on another post, but I'll repost it here again. I still play my warden everyday, and great at it. As maintank, I do take more damage and feel kinda squishy when being mobbed, but I make do due to the great pool of morale and my healer's ability to spam every kind of heals my way. But it shouldn't be that way. Most of the time I would off-tank and work with a guard. Pulling stray mobs, single target and pull on specific Lts, kite when have to. Kiting, in some skirm raids like Battle in the tower, or Strike Against Dannenglor, or even at Helegrod: Spider, is a must. And no one can do it better than wardens, with our ability to do great aoe threat while running. As in Draigoch runs, I have no problem being main tank. So most of the time, I don't have a problem playing a warden.
    But I do get frustrated sometimes when I do have to pull mobs and have to stand to fight them, since most of the time, that is the job of a main tank. Like you said, mitigations are our main problem. Being able to buff ourselves up before combat, and have an extented duration of the buffs, IMO, is gonna get rid of this problem. The only buffs you can execute before going into combat are mostly shield mastery, dance of war, and shield tactic btw. Wall of Steel still require you to hit a target to execute it.
    Which way? Read the beta review of a warden in the new raid. Good luck! You should probably have a back up plan in order.

    I even looked it up for you http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...47#post5827047

    You can also join WA here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Now-In-Session


  12. #12

    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by Iznogoot View Post
    "Oh great, another thread about how to fix the warden class".

    Hello everyone, my name Iznogoot. Warden is my main toon, and boy how I love this class. And yes, this is definitely another thread about how to fix the Warden class. But before flaming my thread, please at least hear me out why I love this class.

    Warden is awesome. He is righteous, courageous, skillful and the most versatile warrior on the battlefield. He protects those who can not defend themselves, wearing nothing but leather armor, charging the battlefield with a spear, a shield, his javelins and his courage. How awesome is that?

    LOTRO had the right idea when they created this class: they wanted a versatile class so they created the gambit system, where you can use any kind of skills depending on the order of your gambits. Warden depends on his skill, and his courage to fight and tank so they make him with the intention of using self buff (b/p/e buffs) and morale regen. The 3 trait lines are supposed to be based on DPS, Heal, and Threat. But there are some flaws in their design from the beginning, in concept and in gameplay.

    Let me point it out:
    _ Gambit system is great, but it has one flaw: the more advanced the gambits are, the longer it take to execute. Ultimately, the gambits will be too complicated and clustered and the rewards are not worth the troubles. They compensated this by implementing Gambit Masteries, but seriously, the induction is too long, and by the time we executed them, the enemy have already 1 or 2 steps ahead. For a DPS warden, taking 3-5 gambits to do a decent damage hit on your target is simply not efficient, and that is completely backward with a warden's motto: efficient and skillful. For a threat/tanking warden, try to gain threat, buff yourself, try to self-heal all the while maintaining threat; all that while pumping gambits, is not efficient. Especially with how they scale (or rather, not scale) threat and the morale regen rating.

    My solution to this, is to let the masteries be active even out of combat, and a warden should be able to "warm up" before combat, self-buffing for b/p/e, and always initiate a battle with spear. Depending on trait line, spears should have different effects, which I would explain later. DPS, Morale regen and threat should be scaled up, depending on trait line they should have a total differernt scale than when not being traited.

    That moves us to the second flaw of the warden class: the trait lines, especially blue and yellow are so not as unique as they should be. The way I visualize it, the trait line should have been such as so:

    _ Spear line:

    A warden is skillful and a master of maneuver

    Spearline, red line, or dps line, should focus on javelin for more damage. This line should focus more on debuffs, skirmish skills, and javelin skills. A warden on the offensive should utilize their most deadly weapon: the javelin and should always initiate it in combat. And as he doesn't have to protect anyone, he should use his versatility, his precision with a weapon to his advantage.
    When traiting Spear line, warden should have the option to:
    + Increase spear range (but not as far as a hunter's bow range)
    + Hugely increased in damage (javenlin should be the main weapon for warden when pvmp or sparring in dps mode, not spear, for javelin should be the most deadly weapon in the hand of a skillful warrior).
    + DoTs and bonus damage for both spear and javelin dots
    + Ability to use poison in weapons (which would further more put DoTs on the oponent)
    + Javelin skills, aside from Slow effect, should also have Root effect. If a hunter can AOE root a group of opponents with arrows, there is no reason why a warden can not impale 1 single opponent to the ground with his deadly javelin. And since a javelin is 10 times bigger than an arrow, they should have a prolong root effect comparing to arrows. The effect should be 40s and the target can not move even when being attacked.
    When engage in melee combat in spear line, a warden should be able to:
    + Debuff opponent armor
    + Apply bleeds
    + Chance to start fellowship maneuver when using critical strike on a stunned opponent. A warden is a master of maneuver. He should have the ability to start a FM when traited right. I think it would be best if we implement this into warden Critical Strike skill. If traited 2 spears, warden should have 25% chance to start FM when hitting stunned opponent with CS. 40% with 3, and 55% with 4. Ofcourse, giving that warden doesn't have a skill with 100% stun chance (the boot only gives 25% stun chance, and Boar's Rush is also not 100%), and the fact that there is an "immune to stun" buff for mob after being stunned, to successfully execute an FM, the warden has to work with another class.

    To sum it up, spear line should be about debuff, bleeds and javelin. A warden traited in this line when going out to the moors should have no problem single targeting a mob, root/stun them, get close and apply bleed/debuff, and run away, which is the perfect strategy for a skilled skirmisher. Ambusher is nice, but is not enough. In a group, dps warden can help debuff, dps, apply massive bleed on target, and start FMs. How to scale this trait line, is really up to the devs. Spear line is associated with might, and should focus on heavily buffing the warden with evade rating, not parry (when you sneak in for an attack, hit your opponent at a vulnerable spot, do you evade or parry?). Way of the spear Legendary trait should also have increased crit ratings.

    Moving on to blue and yellow line. Before we start, let me make a notion that the yellow line and blue line that we currently have, makes no sense. Some people even consider yellow line useless.
    _ Shield line:

    A warden is courageous. He protects those who can't protect themselves

    The blue line have had so many criticism, so I won't even go into detail. One thing for sure, a scale up for morale heal is a must. There is one thing I'd like to change about this trait line, one might upset some wardens, but is essential to making this trait line distinct from fist line, is that conviction should not have the aoe threat effect anymore. Conviction should stack up (it is not, at the moment), and act as a group heal skill that a warden can spam. Ofcourse, giving that it is a healing skill, it will still have threat, but not as much as it is right now. A shield traited warden should be:
    + A decent healer with decent group heal
    + A buffer, which gives group buffs on physical and tactical mitigation, block rating and maybe incoming heal rating.
    + One who has huge self buff on Block rating, incoming healing rating, outcoming healing rating, and self-heal
    + A 1 target tanker, with ability to self heal and buff group.
    In a group, a shield traited warden is reliable for healing and buffing, and is quite self sufficient in tanking single or a few mobs. In solo, a shield traited warden should be able to self heal through any kind of difficulty. Shield line should be associated with will (or might?), and Way of the Shield trait should have enormous increase in block rating for the warden.

    _ Fist Line

    A warden is righteous and master of fear

    Multi tanking has been the strong and weak point of a warden all the same. Warden can grab threat from any kind of tank, but they can't take and endure the damage dealt from mobs. When ganged up, warden either have to kite, or stay and rely on healer to pump every heal possible their way. Self buffing is not fast enough to give warden their extra b/p/e ratings, or when self-heal, doesnt give them their morale back fast enough. Comparing to a Guardian's taunt, warden simply don't have as great the range nor the instant threat steal. In my opinion, this trait line should be rebuilt so that:
    + Javelin skill, when traited yellow, will have great threat. Depending on what kind of javelin skills, it either have single target threat or multiple target threat. With about 4 different javelins, the warden can single target and pull 4 different mobs as he will. Or with the deadly jav skill, will pull a whole group. This will help greatly for a warden to initiate a battle, grab threat instantly and effectively, or if he is off-tanking, can range select target from a group of mobs without stealing aggro from the whole group.
    + For a multi mob tanking, warden should have increased leech rating (naturally)
    + Enormous Parry and Evade rating buffs, as well as great buff for block ratings
    + Gambit Masteries should be active in and out of combat. A warden should be able to warm up and self buff on BPE before engage into combat, and their buffs should last longer. Along with a decent (not heal traited) self heal and aoe threat skills, they should survive longer in the battle field as a main tank.
    + As master of maneuver and fear, a warden should be able to dumb threat as will onto a single target (namely a guardian) when traited yellow. This should make them more versatile as an off-tank. I know that deflection is a threat transfer skill, but transfer to whom? The warden simply drop threat against 1 single target but where does the target go after when he drops the threat? The way I see it, is the warden should be able to run around the room, aoe and grab the strayed mobs, run back to guardian, dumb the mobs on him. And if needed be, warden can pick up single targets and tank them, sharing the damage with main tank. A more easy way to CC is, to gather them up, dump threat on guardian, and aoe fear all of them, effectively reducing incoming damage to 1/3 or 1/4 for a period of time. The gambit use for Threat Dumb, or let's call it Tag-team, should be Fist Shield Spear Fist Shield, and then click on the guardian and execute the gambit. Desolation, when traited 5 yellows, should have more chance to fear, and have more targets.
    + Warden should have 25% chance of stun immunity when equiping 2 yellow, 50% with 3, and 75% with 4 yellows. The most annoying thing when tanking mobs, is that they take turns stunning you, and being a gambit user, a warden really doesn't have any special skills like champion to break stun, and thus loosing aggro and get the whole group killed. A medium armor warrior and master of maneuver should have less chance getting stunned anyways, since they should be able to dodge a blunt and heavy weapon better than a heavy armor warrior does.
    + When tanking in yellow traited line, warden should have increased incoming healing rating from Fist Line. This would get them better healing from healers without relying on gears.
    As a main tank, warden should have the ability to survive longer while having more incoming healing rating, better BPE, and the ability to fear mobs to reduce incoming damage. They can grab threat better with spears and more selective on targets, initiate battle faster. They'll have ability to self buff before battle which would also be important to their survivability. As an off-tank, a warden can coordinate with a guard or a champ and be in control of the tide, being able to gain threat quickly and dump it also as quickly. Hopefully, it will make warden a worthwhile tank, not as sturdy and durable as the guardian, but with a few tricks up his sleeves, he can maintain a trustworthy tanking spot in his fellowship/kinship.

    I do write a lot, and it seems like I ask a lot. But think about it, it's not too much, and it really is how I see a warden should be. If you think that my kind of warden is such a mashed up of guardian, champ, captain, burglar, hunter,.... you are half right. Warden should be that versatile, but at the same time, due to their gambit system, they don't play like other class at all.
    Again, above are just my suggestions. I have not gone into the detail of how much morale or bpe ratings should be, for that is up to the dev to figure out.

    If you would like to comment on my post, please reply, I'd love to hear your opinion of pros/cons. If you want to build your own kinda warden, please make your own threat. Thank you all and to all the warden out there, don't lose hope in our class.

    whell I lake this ideja what I have read but what i think we have skill witch stun nirle 100% it is the abus sper but onle out off fheit whey can we not use it or acctveit it in fheit lake if we gate crit with thowing asper then abus sper gate free + so you know whey have stune inmune skill it is shild fist sper shild whell you are rheit with the yellow lin it #### but blu line dun´t mass it up it is the best line we have atm give you more shel heal and block and eveid but it usles now the block and eveit in pvp beckos fensse
    Last edited by kjarkur; Nov 20 2011 at 12:54 AM.

  13. #13

    Re: My kind of Warden

    There are some nice suggestions in there...masteries out of combat, iv'e already tought of that since other classes say they have to build up focus, fevor, etc even tough they can build it up before combat and they have potions from scholars wich makes them recover more of this, as for a warden i'd say nay...

    However if you make "javalin of deadly force" more deadly as in AOE TOT, or/and a small time root wich breaks upon damage it would help to get "battle ready" as warden, iv'e mainly had the advantage of ambushing and my this way having 4s(it takes 1s to get to the enemy) advantage in making gambits

    As for stun imumity i suggest that they "could" implant a sistem wich allows to build gambit even tough you are stunned, maybe just remove the damage done by gambit builders yet they do add to the gambit at a lower cost?
    Also i find it rediculous that you would need 3 traits to get all the masteries, wich is downright stupid, iv'e already got problems choosing traits on wardens....

    And just an FYI: a wardens javalin range is 25M while a hunters range is 40M, however there are legendary weapons with an increased range modifier as well as a better "move hit" penalty, meaning the chances you land a jav while your moving increase.
    This range improovement when fully upgraded make javalins travel +10M wich is 35M vs a 40M hunter range

    But yes a warden is a master of the javalin and besides hunter the only class that can use oils and have javs from lvl 1 wich would have to be improoved not in damage but in effects.

    MT

  14. #14

    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by MTminas View Post
    As for stun imumity i suggest that they "could" implant a sistem wich allows to build gambit even tough you are stunned, maybe just remove the damage done by gambit builders yet they do add to the gambit at a lower cost?

    Also i find it rediculous that you would need 3 traits to get all the masteries, wich is downright stupid, iv'e already got problems choosing traits on wardens....

    And just an FYI: a wardens javalin range is 25M while a hunters range is 40M, however there are legendary weapons with an increased range modifier as well as a better "move hit" penalty, meaning the chances you land a jav while your moving increase.
    This range improovement when fully upgraded make javalins travel +10M wich is 35M vs a 40M hunter range

    But yes a warden is a master of the javalin and besides hunter the only class that can use oils and have javs from lvl 1 wich would have to be improoved not in damage but in effects.

    MT
    The stun immunity is wishful thinking. I aggree that it would be unfair to other classes, especially guard that we have SI. We can, however compromise this by making Way of the Fist Legendary trait have the bonus of converting every stun effect into cripple effect. When being hit with a blunt force, instead of getting stunned, warden can partially avoid it and get some breaking bones instead, thus reduce their run speed by 75%, and skills including gambits, javellins, by 75%. That way Shield Tactic is still desirable to be included in rotation, warden don't get stunned and loose his inductions, threats, maneuver capability...

    FYI you don't need to trait 3 masteries anymore. You can just trait Way of the warden for all the masteries post ROI.

  15. #15

    Re: My kind of Warden

    I like some of these suggestions. But right now, I know the developers are just fixing fundamental issues. The class developments will come later. (I think)

    You can't add a chance for FM on critical strike because first of all, we have ambush and boar's rush. Almost spammable since it's a gambit and Ambush has a 15 second cool down. It would just be too much.

    I disagree with the shield-line moving towards a grouping healing direction. It's just moving into the role of other classes.

    I've done this before myself, but we have to try our best not to compare warden skills to other classes. Gets disregarded by the devs.

  16. #16

    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by MashtaJurioz View Post
    I like some of these suggestions. But right now, I know the developers are just fixing fundamental issues. The class developments will come later. (I think)

    You can't add a chance for FM on critical strike because first of all, we have ambush and boar's rush. Almost spammable since it's a gambit and Ambush has a 15 second cool down. It would just be too much.

    I disagree with the shield-line moving towards a grouping healing direction. It's just moving into the role of other classes.

    I've done this before myself, but we have to try our best not to compare warden skills to other classes. Gets disregarded by the devs.
    The past few days I have revised things I'd like to change about warden. Shield line as healer is too much. I aggree with you.

    As the moment, shield line as a solo trait line is fine. It doesn't need to be fixed for solo purpose IMO. What we can do though, is to change it into a trait line for soloing, doing quests, off-tank, and group buffs. BPE and self heal should be scaled up for solo (I think they already did a good job on that in Bullroarer). What they can do is to make the gambit for threat transfer to a single target, so Shield line warden can run around grabbing aggro (conviction ftw), and run back to dump all threat on main tank. A Shield line warden should also be able to hold single target and selfheal/selfbuff so they can help out in raid. And finally a shield line warden have group buffs that will increase physical defense, tactical defense, BPE ratings and incoming healing rating. I'm thinking maybe making Shield Mastery to group buff BPE, Shield Tactic to group buff Tactical Defense and Physical Defense, and Conviction to group buff incoming healing rating. Conviction outcoming healing rating should stay the same or as good as it goes in Update 5, and no more or it would cross the line into a healer.

    As for yellow line, I also have revised some of the things. A fist warden shouldn't have to worry about BPE or mitigation. Mitigation should be a guard thing, since they have heavy armor (although we should always throw in some extra gambits to improve our BPE). What they can do to make the fist line unique, is to increase Warden's Incoming Heal to extra 100% so he will get massive heal to compensate for the massive damage he will also get. As of right now, warden have no problem with threat, all we need is better chance at survivability. And for a class that excel in morale regen, we should be able to rely on our fellows to regen huge amount of morale. Imagine where a guard take 3000 morale heal, warden gets 6000 instead. That should make up for our lake of mitigation, and it is entirely future proof for this is gonna stay with us and scale up nicely whatever our lvl is. It also won't make us godlike in solo or pvp/pvmp.
    Leech should be scaled so that a warden can solo and take on 5-7 mobs at once (cuz that is what they used to be able to do pre-ROI), but to be able to survive in raid, warden should trait for yellow line and get the bonus incoming heal. As for Stun Immunity, as I said above, it is wishful thinking that the dev should ever grant us the stun immunity bonus. What they can do though, is to put a unique bonus in Way of the Fist Legendary Trait, and make warden to be able to convert stun effect into cripple effects. Cripples will reduce warden's run speed and combat speed, but it won't interrupt our gambits, won't knock us down and make we lose threat, and if we are prepared, we can throw out some potency gambits from potency memory and increase our chance our surviving. That way it won't look like we have the upper hand with SI, won't make the other class, especially guard jealous, and still increase our survivability nicely. Desolation's chance to fear and number or targets, when traited in yellow line, should also be increased to make warden a unique kind of tank, decrease our chance of getting mob and taking massive damage.

    For Spear line, I have nothing to add to my original post, except that Poison maybe not a good idea for it goes again a warden's style. An increase of 5% incombat running speed though, would be nice for it would go nice with a skirmisher's style of combat, and since we wear leather armor we should get the extra speed for that would only be fair. The ability to do FMs, well, if we want it to be fair, can have a cooldown on Critical Strike, making it quite possible for a warden to take the roll of FM starter in a fellowship, and reduce the chance that FMs be abused.

    The power attack line, btw, is quite broken IMO. Power Attack (1,2,3) should have heavy bleed, small damage. Mighty Blow (1,2,3,1), should have medium damage, medium bleed. And Unerring Strike (1,2,3,1,2) should have heavy damage, small bleed. Why the change, you ask? It's all about efficiency in gambits. As of now, we have to do a javeling attack, then either androit maneuver (1,3,2,1) or warden's triumph (1,3,2,1,3), then power attack (1,2,3) for small bleed, Mighty Blow (1,2,3,1) for medium bleed and stacking bleed damage, then Unerring Strike (1,2,3,1,2) for heavy bleed and heavy stacking bleed damage as many times as you can.
    The problem with these rotations, is that it takes too much time to do so, and yield little result. So when we switch the bleed damage as I propose, the rotation could be as follow:
    _ Jav attack for bleed,
    _ Warden's triump or adroit maneuver 1 3 2 1 (3)
    _ Unerring strike 1 2 3 1 2
    _ Mighty Blow 1 2 3 1
    _ Power Attack 1 2 3
    _ Power Attack 1 2 3 ...
    This will reduce the number of gambits we have to throw out, and franky if you are good, you can use all 6 of the gamebit masteries for one rotation, thus make it fast, efficient, more damage output over time. If they would make Shield Piercer traitable for root (40s to 60s root), a skirmish warden can root his opponent, do some range damage, get close and throw out the above rotation, get away, throw a slow javelin on his opponent, get far and range his them. Do this several times and your opponent will bleed to death.

    What do you guys think?

  17. #17

    Re: My kind of Warden

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrendos View Post
    Meh. I personally am fine with the Warden where it is minus the Mitigation Issues. Pre-RoI I was a great tank. I very rarely had any issues, and everything worked great. I don't want them to change this much stuff to the class.

    As for building Gambits out of combat... no. I have said it many times and I will say it again. This will make things way too easy. Learn to adapt when entering combat. If we were able to have Shield Mastery, Dance of War, Wall of Steel, etc., up all the time before we even entered combat, it would take away from the fun of deciding which Gambits to use at which times. Solo combat is already easy as it is... being able to buff ourselves before combat would just make it a cake-walk.
    I mostly agree. The only thing I thought might be kinda neat is a new javelin toss skill that can only be used out of combat (similar to ambush) that gives a buff. Like a toss and immediately hide behind shield. This might work because since it's OOC, it can't be used IC as an "oh ####" buff, it will give us a bit of a head start but not with our best buffs, and in solo (or to a lesser extent, groups) you have to choose between that or ambush. Just a thought.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    119

    Re: My kind of Warden

    I dont mind reading a wall of text as long as its written with a combination of common sense and the lore kept in mind. The first suggestion thats not inline with Warden lore or common sense tells me that someone is being foolish their posting and usually turns out to be not worth reading. Granted, some people put a lot thought in their suggestions and other stuff, but we all know its just wasted space most of the time when they lose focus of what it means to be a Warden. If you are another WADEN alt try to be more realistic in your "warden-istic desires" when posting here and stop trying to cross class skills. If you want the devs/Orion to listen to what you have to say, put realistic requests in your posts, poisons, LMAO.

    Wardens in Lotro is the most advance play style since normal Age of Conan combat, and most of us know how that game went, macro or die. It is really a shame how much bull we Wardens have to put up with just to play a few hours, and even then its emotionally draining. I've had nightmares since ROI so bad I cant play Lotro at all, often times I've been afraid to even log in an alt for fear that they would be broken too. LOL

 

 

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