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  1. #126
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuffie67 View Post
    I like idea of Dun-Finder...
    Since Elen lacks Tanks.. we need Tanks so bad.


    But at same time, I hope person who makes the instances, can set up what they are looking for.
    I don't mind randoms and pug runs, But i do like to filter some *ahem* player becuase i know there bad, (bad mouth, trolls, or actully a bad player)

    I hope it takes me /ignore list into account..

    The Saruman Instance, its crazy how fast people jumped it.
    we get to do something people could only dream of.. and people attack it.

    We could have a quad-Balrog royal rumble event! it would be epic!!! x 9999
    But Lore freaks would attack it, kill it.. taking a chunk of fun out, for sake of Lore.

    Its a game, its LOTR! lets have fun!!!

    I do get that certain things, like meeting frodo would be totally wrong and really break lore rules.

    I always assumed if ever we get to Mordor.
    We would be sent via Eagle (by Gandalf) to edge of mountains to seek sign of Frodo and Sam.
    They can be seen out in distance, (or we even get close enough, but never get to talk to them) as they make final climb to door to pit.
    Several orcs can be heard talking, "I know i saw some shire rats! as they head out, player can roar at them and get there attention and then lead them away without Frodo and Sam ever knowing what you have done for them.

    You can be along the edge, so the whole back drop is main valley of Mordor itself and The Tower in background with eye facing towards Main army. After you defeat several orcs and a Boss, you get a front row seat to the End, at very edge of Mordor itself.

    Only reason this came to mind, was i was trying to think of how the last battle would take place with you there.. and my low end PC exploding at amount of NPC's there...lol.

    That how I pictured the last section of the game.
    Some good epic music as you play the un-sung hero part. (and you don't even break lore really, =p)

    I get what your saying but, i'v talked to Frodo and the rest of the fellowship a few times now. Even done some instances with Legolas and Gimli hehe :P
    Shing shing!

  2. #127
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    I have always imagined us raiding the tower in Mordor, as another means to keep the great eye distracted from the main event. Also who says it ends in Mordor? The Shire will need to be freed after the fall of Mordor you know.

    I hope that the instance finder is cross server, but I also hope that they change loot drops to match up better with who is in the instance.

    If you are going to drop a piece of gear that nobody can use, please do not make it BoA, make it BoE so we can at least sell it on the AH to recoup some of the cost for using scrolls, food, potions, ect.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000020eca9/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  3. #128
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by Esherdon View Post
    The Shire will need to be freed after the fall of Mordor you know.
    That was covered extensively in RotK, and it was entirely a Hobbit affair. In fact, that's a large part of why the retaking of the Shire was so powerful, because the Hobbits themselves retook their own lands.

    I don't see us having any part in that.

  4. #129

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Very excited for this. As long as they keep the instance finder server-only to keep a sense of community. It's a pain to try to put together a pugs, especially at certain times. Can't wait!

  5. #130
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by Faerilea View Post
    Very excited for this. As long as they keep the instance finder server-only to keep a sense of community. It's a pain to try to put together a pugs, especially at certain times. Can't wait!
    Server-only really won't make a difference. I assure you that your own server has roughly the same percentage of brats - the only difference is you know who they are so you have them on the in-game /ignore or a mental /ignore list. What made it so bad at times for WoW was how the servers were clustered. Putting PvP servers, RP servers, and normal servers into each cluster was just asking for trouble. You mix three different mindsets, one of which is known to attract troublemakers and another that is said troublemakers favorite target, and the only surprise is if it doesn't blow up within the first week. Also part of the cross-server was to address the horrid population problems on certain servers (ex. Cho'gal Alliance being a prime example). I don't recall any LotRO server having a population that low so there isn't the need to pull people from over-populated servers into groups with those from underpopulated ones.

    The only reasons I would really object to a cross-server grouping tool is that it removes one of the few remaining consequences for being an unmitigated (insert slang name for a mule) and almost requires that a vote-kick system (which will be abused) be added. As long as it's server-only if someone is a twit they have to deal with whatever (if any) consequences the server imposes on such people, and it's possible to use /tell to arrange for the other members of the group to drop and reform without the twit.

  6. #131

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilka View Post
    I don't think LOTRO has any form of cross-server tech, so I'm gonna suspect this one's a no.
    I'm just curious but how do you know this? I post a lot in the suggestions forum and I routinely receive responses from people talking about technical limitations of the game, yet none of them are official reps. Are you guys just assuming things and trying to pass it off as knowledge?

    Sorry that was more of a generalized statement, not necessarily directed at you.

    Also - LOTRO has cross-server transfers, that must be some form of technology no?

  7. #132

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Also I think it's nice that they're incorporating this tool but I am a little hesitant to think it's a good choice. I can see it being useful for low pop servers, if it's cross-server. But if it's not cross server, then I don't really see it solving any problems other than being a minor convenience. People are still going to advertise for groups in chat to reach the people who are not checking this tool.

    Then if it IS cross server, it starts possibly causing issues - especially with the current loot rules.

  8. #133

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    So i try to stop lore-storm. Please show me quote where said that Saruman never fight anyone prior to ent's assault. If i see that than i admit that fighting with Saruman is lorebreaking otherwise it's not. Period.

  9. #134

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    Correct that Saruman's been busy for a long time. That still doesn't explain the timing of his attack. Even bad guys need strategic motivation. At this time, he is in communication with Sauron and should (or at the very least could) know of the impending attack against Minas Tirith. And yet, he goes to war prematurely. It makes no sense for him to be the first to strike in the War of the Ring. I failed to mention above, but perhaps he wants to use the momentum of his two skirmish victories at the Battles of the Fords of Isen.

    We also know that prior to the attacks, Gandalf and the Three Hunters aid Theoden and Grima is banished from Edoras. I am unsure of the dates, but perhaps the missing piece of puzzle is Grima's arrival and news of Theoden being aided. That leans towards the now or never line of Saruman's motivation and works with the above victory momentum.

    Edit: Found the dates. Grima was banished on the same day as Saruman's victory at the Second Battle; 2 March. Helm's Deep is midway between Isengard and Edoras, meaning both groups could arrive on 3 March. But, it's not enough time for Grima to get to Isengard and for Saruman to launch the attack on the same day. So, that's out. Saruman knew nothing of Aragorn or Theoden's release. Which brings us back to a premature assault...
    Saruman intended to set himself up as a "power" against the might of Sauron. To do so he needed either to control Rohan or remove it as a threat. By the time of the events described in LotR, Sauron was beginning to make his move and Saruman could no longer afford to wait. He chose to begin his assault while Rohan was in disarray due to the voodoo hex Grima managed to put on Theoden. This led to the First Battle of the Ford of Isen. According to Unfinished Tales, Saruman's specific goal appeared to be to slay Theodred, which had the intended effect of compounding the leadership vacuum and exacerbating Theoden's mental breakdown. Simultaneously, Grima managed to estrange Theoden from Eomer. With Theodred dead, Eomer discredited and Theoden all but incapacitated, Saruman's victory would have been swift and complete were it not for Gandalf's intervention.

    With respect to your point that Saruman should have known that Sauron's attack on Minas Tirith was imminent, I don't think that is the case. It is true that Saruman knew that Sauron was beginning to unleash his armies (the WK having previously assaulted Osgiliath with a trial force), and indeed I take that as part of Saruman's motivations for making his own move. However, I think LotR makes it clear that Sauron hit Gondor sooner and harder than expected as a direct result of Aragorn confronting Sauron in the palantir. This happened after Saruman's all-out attack on Rohan.

    I think the other factor to consider (which I believe is discussed either in the appendices or in Unfinished Tales), is that Saruman was caught in a bind due to his failed treacheries against Sauron - first with the capture of Gandalf, and later with the capture of Merry and Pippen. It is stated that the nazgul captured Grima on their way on their way north seeking the Shire, and thus became aware that Saruman had Gandalf. However, when they came to Isengard to claim him Gandalf had already escaped (which Saruman has difficulty explaining). Sauron now suspects Saruman of working against him. Later when Merry and Pippen are captured by the joint forces from Isengard and Mordor, the White Hand orcs prevail and the hobbits are taken to Isengard (They are taking the hobbits to Isengard, to Isengard, to Isengard, they're taking, they're taking, they're taking the hobbits to Isengard, to Isengard, to Isengard). Once this happens, Sauron knows that Saruman has betrayed him. The hobbits were captured at Amon Hen the day after Theodred was slain at the Fords. I think it is not unreasonable to conclude that both of these events were set into motion at the same time, and that Saruman the Wise did so knowing that his attempt to sieze the Ring would be the point of no return in his alliance with Sauron.

    I think at that point he had two options: (1) sit back, fortify Isengard and allow Sauron to weaken himself by assaulting Gondor and then Rohan, or (2) take pre-emptive action to remove Rohan and expand his own power base.

    I am guessing that Saruman also had another key consideration, which is that he knew he had no hope of final victory against Sauron unless he seized the Ring. Saruman may have thought that if the attack at Amon Hen failed to achieve this goal, he would need a free hand to send his armies across Rohan and down into Gondor in an effort to find and capture the Fellowship before they reached the safety of Minas Tirith (which would have been a disaster for Saruman). Like Sauron, it almost certainly would not have occurred to Saruman that the true plan was to destroy the Ring in Mt. Doom, but even if he did that would not have altered the tactical necessity of sending his armies unimpeded across Rohan in order to intercept the Fellowship.
    Last edited by Vilnas; Nov 15 2011 at 02:06 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d00000003106c/signature.png]Celedriel[/charsig]

  10. #135
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    Jan 2008
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    633

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Very well explained Vilnas. Though if I can I will try to add in some points/offer some other thought on stated points. Concerning when Saruman attacked Helm's Deep, I don't think Tolkien ever stated a clear reason of motivation. It could be that as he grew in power, his ever growing pride felt strong enough to make his assault. It could be that he was directed by Sauron to attack Rohan while it was still somewhat weak, so that Gondor would not receive aid. You hit my point already Vilnas of Sauron learning of Saruman's treachery. I believe it could also be assumed that Sauron knew even before this point, since Saruman's servants would mislead Sauron's when they were looking for the Ring around the Gladden Fields.

    As Gandalf put it in one of the books (it's not the exactly quote, but along the lines of) "Whichever side wins, things will go bad for Saruman".
    Going back to the Isengard raid. While i'm not sure how we enter Orthanc, I'm sure Saruman wouldn't be worried. Considering his pride and his power have grown, his ego would have as well. So he wouldn't fear 12 adventurers. Plus that article mentions that the goal is to destroy his Ring of Power. Plus we know we can't kill Saruman, so if anything we'd fight him, then be forced to retreat in some way. And while it wouldn't be absolute victory, it would in theory be a small one, based on his ring of power. Cause what if he had it's power during the battle of helm's deep? Would it have helped him fend off the Ents? Luckily we wouldn't have to wonder.

    Eodread, Earendel, Lindrial, Isilmacil - Horizon
    Thattickles


  11. #136

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    I enjoyed going to Mirkwood, it was 'off the book's track' and it would be good if further expansions saw us move also away to areas of the war not directly in the face of the main thrust of the book. Sure we all want to see the signature locations, but we went to Angmar to weaken the North from crushing Eriador and south in a vice with the forces of Mordor and Saruman, then we went East into Mirkwood to crush a build up there, although that involved a fight with another 'superpower we couldn't actually kill'.

    It's been great to see the tribes of Dunland and understand the complex situation in relation to Saruman and Rohan and how it's affected them, I'd like us to continue on the non direct path.

    In particular though this should allow the designers to create some interesting new foes for us, ones that aren't as central as Saruman.

    Here's hoping for Umbar and the lands north and northeast of Mordor.

  12. #137
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilnas View Post
    [Excellent post]
    /tip o' my hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    Concerning when Saruman attacked Helm's Deep, I don't think Tolkien ever stated a clear reason of motivation.
    Right. That was my jumping off point. I have never been convinced by the explanation of "bad guys do bad things." Clearly, Saruman had to have a reason for the timing of his assault. I was trying to piece it together in my head to help in my understanding of what we'll be doing ingame in the next Update.

    Both Vilnas and Isilmacil, you have provided excellent character studies, using the timeline and events to explain actions. Huzzah!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000000ad326/01008/signature.png]Hunberht[/charsig]

  13. #138
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    Right. That was my jumping off point. I have never been convinced by the explanation of "bad guys do bad things." Clearly, Saruman had to have a reason for the timing of his assault. I was trying to piece it together in my head to help in my understanding of what we'll be doing ingame in the next Update.

    Both Vilnas and Isilmacil, you have provided excellent character studies, using the timeline and events to explain actions. Huzzah!
    What kind of timing do you keep referring to? He attacked as soon as he was ready to. What other events are supposed to have a bearing on that?
    Re-ni-AN-nen - strayed (ppt. of renia- 'to stray')
    Aeled Reniannen, Defender of Middle-earth ~ Nendhiniel, Forge-Warden : Captain and Wardenette from [EN-RP] Laurelin
    Fluffrash, Blade of Barashish ~ Nathraen, Conqueror of Towers : Warg Puppy and Spider Tailor from the darker side thereof
    Faradwen, Swift-Arrow : Huntress from [EN-RE] Landroval


    As if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.
    ~~~~~
    Kári was a little Dwarf. / Smaller than you or me. / And wherever Kári went / He took his axe… or three.

  14. #139
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by Reniannen View Post
    What kind of timing do you keep referring to? He attacked as soon as he was ready to. What other events are supposed to have a bearing on that?
    I am referring to general military strategy. While it is a piece of fiction, the War of the Ring was a complicated geopolitical scenario. A first-strike is not always the key to victory; particularly when you can have a third party wipe out or weaken your enemies for you.

    Vilnas pointed out some major lynchpins in Saruman's strategy. Sauron's patience had been stretched thin and tested to the breaking point. And without knowing about Gandalf's return and aid to Theoden, Saruman's plans against Rohan were complete. The killing blow was imminent.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000000ad326/01008/signature.png]Hunberht[/charsig]

  15. #140
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by guffyjohnson View Post
    I'm just curious but how do you know this? I post a lot in the suggestions forum and I routinely receive responses from people talking about technical limitations of the game, yet none of them are official reps. Are you guys just assuming things and trying to pass it off as knowledge?

    Sorry that was more of a generalized statement, not necessarily directed at you.

    Also - LOTRO has cross-server transfers, that must be some form of technology no?
    Lilka doesn't know that for sure. That's why she said she doesn't think there is such technology, and suspects that it's not the case. Two key words that tells you she is guessing.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c0000000b3969/01007/signature.png]Minarfin[/charsig]

  16. #141
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    Question Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    The article said that the Public Test Realm, Bullroarer, would be open on 'Tuesday', but it didn't say which Tuesday. I started the Test application and it is updating, but the message dated today 11/15 says that Bullroarer is not open to players. Anyone have information as to when exactly the test will be opened?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000002491f/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  17. #142
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    The test server just started patching about 30 minutes ago. I would imagine the server itself will open up later today.

    Bullroarer forums:all info will be located there.

    http://forums.lotro.com/forumdisplay...Test-Server%29
    Account Management English Phone Support is available by calling (781) 407-4020. The hours are:
    Monday through Friday: 10:00 AM to 9:00 PM Eastern
    Weekend Coverage: 12:00 Noon to 9:00 PM Eastern

  18. #143

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    I've had a very negative gut-level reaction to this announcement and I think I've realized why: I can't stand anything about how they handled Isengard itself and I don't want to be reminded of it. I really don't have words harsh enough for how much I hated that portion of the epic, and if I did have the words for it I'd probably be banned for life. I would have been so much happier if they completely chopped Isengard off the map and just called the expansion "The clans of Dunland". That would have been awesome.

    I want to see more of Dunland and finish up the dangling threads. I want to save Mabon and strike a blow against that Old woman of the mountain. I want to strike back against a certain clan who betrayed us. I want to figure out what the heck that big tower just SW of Galtrev is really about. What I absolutely don't want is to see more of Isengard. The only instance that sounds at all appealing is the one at Fanghorn's edge, and I really hope that I can't even see Orthanc itself from there.

    I'm sure I'll play most of these and enjoy them if they are well done, but it seems like trying to focus so much on Isengard itself is a straightjacket that Turbine forced itself into and it just didn't work.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/082070000001e0c1c/01005/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  19. #144

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Finally, long awaited tool is coming! In my opinion, "Instance Finder" is a MUST for LOTRO.
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  20. #145
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by telbric View Post
    If the dungeon finder is not cross-realm, this is really good news. I'll gladly put the GLFF spam behind me.

    The instance cluster sounds fine, except for the whole 'fight Saruman' thing. That's totally pointless since no matter what happens, we already know the outcome and he's going to stay in power.


    That's a huge 'if' for me. If it's cross-realm, we're entering the horrors of wow territory, & I never want to see anything like that, ever, ever again. I'll try it and see how people behave. This community is certainly 1000x nicer, but we'll see. I did wonder - and I haven't seen it answered - will this dungeon finder automatically skip over those you might have on Ignore? Otherwise... awkward!

    As for Saruman, I would hope they've finessed this somehow. Massive Moria populated with Dwarves & lighting everywhere was as far from lore as I could imagine, personally - nothing since then has tried my tolerance as much. Running with Theodred will be fantastic - I hope they get rid of the Ranger-Rider quotes, so I can stop screaming, "But you don't KNOW Aragorn yet!"

    But please, game, don't get any closer to WoW. There's a reason people run screaming from that game, having lost all faith in humanity. Tread carefully, I beg you.

  21. #146

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    I've always thought a big part of Saruman's attack on Rohan was an attempt to get the one ring. With the one ring, Saruman is able to confront Sauron. With the King of Rohan and the Steward of Gondor mentally beaten, what better time to invade Rohan, find the one ring, get a leaderless Rohan to surrender, use their forces, sweep down to Gondor, depose the Steward, and challenge Sauron. I don't think it's a coincidence that Grima set up Rohan for Saruman to rule as a puppeteer. He wanted to add Rohan to his forces, and then Gondor.
    Ararax

  22. #147
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    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by ararax2 View Post
    I've always thought a big part of Saruman's attack on Rohan was an attempt to get the one ring. With the one ring, Saruman is able to confront Sauron. With the King of Rohan and the Steward of Gondor mentally beaten, what better time to invade Rohan, find the one Ring, get a leaderless Rohan to surrender, use their forces, sweep down to Gondor, depose the Steward, and challenge Sauron. I don't think it's a coincidence that Grima set up Rohan for Saruman to rule as a puppeteer. He wanted to add Rohan to his forces, and then Gondor.
    That was one of my thoughts, as well. Saruman sent his Uruks to intercept the Fellowship at Amon Hen. As far as he knows, the Ring is on it's way to him. He has no idea that Eomer's riders then intercept his Uruks. Wait, he was stalking around Fangorn when the Three Hunters were there, so maybe he does. At any rate, Sauron has already learned of Saruman's treachery and the Nazgul has already been sent to retrieve the Ring (that Saruman does not have). And after spying on them, knows that Aragorn is in Fangorn. Whatever the reason, he strikes against Rohan/Theoden to complete his plan before outside intervention. Fortunately for the Free Peoples, he fails.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000000ad326/01008/signature.png]Hunberht[/charsig]

  23. #148

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    I am especially excited about a Dungeon Finder option finally being added to LOTRO and for the sake of effectiveness I hope it runs cross-server. I can understand concerns regarding bad groups, bad people and the preference to running with others on one's own server--I fear and prefer the same things as well--but also remember that within MMOs less-than-quality players is a universal aspect that spans the genre. We may not like that prospect, and it may irk us that inconsiderate persons--that can sometimes only be described using profanity--exist to mar the experience, but they're there. They exist in our community, but to a lesser extent, at least in my experience.

    And yes, my main argument is it exists and it's there, but to deny everyone the tool's full effectiveness because of the existence of this behavior seems a bit much. From my perspective it looks like we're ducking the problem, some of us are willing to say that we feel strongly the community is better than WoW's, but why risk it? If we're so faithful in the quality of the people in this community then why not implement a cross-server system? Worrying about an MMO trope like bad players doesn't feel like a just enough cause to limit it in this game

    Others of us feel that elitism will run rampant. I can only speak for myself, but I have been in groups with several people who are number-crunchers and some whom parse and I have never encountered a problem with people treating me as if I was an inferior being. If anything I have seen more people get irked at breaking CC or a DPS pulling of a tank than numbers and statistics, and those are the standard MMO rules that people know anyways.

    For my part, I don't see this going cross-server with this feature as a bad thing. We're going to encounter bad people in this game whether this feature exists or not, in my 4 years of playing LOTRO I have encountered several, and I'm still playing because I love the people and I love the content. The bad people and the bad experiences have never bothered me enough to shake my love of the game, I just roll with it and move on, because it's honestly as simple as that. Trying to limit our exposure isn't an unreasonable approach by any means, but limiting our exposure is not the only way to deal with the problem as it's still the elephant in the room even then.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b00000005f11e/01007/signature.png]Jeffolas[/charsig]
    Jeffolas Faelon, Defender of Annuminas since 1/2008, Proud Warden of Annuminas since 3/15/09

  24. #149

    Re: Update 5 - new dungeon finder tool and raid against Saruman

    Quote Originally Posted by phaiLbuS View Post
    that is not lore-breaking at all because no where in the books did Tolkien write
    Just because authors don't explicitly state what didn't exist or didn't happen in their stories doesn't mean it did exist or did happen. Folks at Turbine are free to fill in the blanks. It's about how they fill them.

    Quote Originally Posted by phaiLbuS View Post
    so get over yourselves those who think all the fun turbine has brought to this game is lore breaking.
    Strangely enough, fun is also a buzzword. Amusement and enjoyment are subjective. Stop saying Turbine breaks the lore to make the game more "fun". We know it will be fun for those who want to be fighting Nazgul and Wizards.
    Yalras - Burglar
    Eldar to Evernight

 

 
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