Last edited by Nuth_KM; Dec 08 2011 at 05:49 PM.
1 Trapper line on it's own is ok
2 Problem is there's practical use case for it:
2a Non-TOF hunters already have almost similar CC capabilities (with RoT, Bard's and crafted traps)
2b In a vast amount of content CC in general is either undesirable or outright counterproductive
2c Where CC does matter, it almost always expects a Mezz, although you sometimes can get away with Bard's Arrow (if it doesn't bug the place out), but while ToF does give us Explosive Shot it's no match for Riddle or Blinding Flash in reliability (can be resisted + BPEd, very small refresh-opportunity and requires 2 legacies to be reliable on top of being a Legendary Trait). And for Traps and Fears, the bread-and-butter of hunter CC, you're looking at 2b again...
2d Most non-hunters don't know how to handle traps, rendering them useless in groups... I'm sorry to say that most of my traps are broken by some Guard or Warden who sees a mob standing locked-in-place, but without the usual dizziness of a mezz and decides to start tanking them (or worse, running up to them before they go into the trap). I realize this isn't a 'design issue', but having to educate a group on 'how to pull a mob into a trap' every time does get tedious.
My suggestion without reworking the whole line: Move RoT into Trapper line, get a new damage-based Legendary Trait, make Explosive Arrow a reliable chainable-mezz and educate your colleagues at instance-design on the virtues and mechanics of Roots and Fears.
Needful Haste is still pretty usable as damage-buff (I actually think it's better in most cases). The longer duration however was pure awesomeness for the Resolute Aim induction setback immunity. Soloing I now often find myself saving Needful Haste until the melee-phase of a tough fight to prevent having to deal with induction setbacks too much at the end of it. Maybe add +duration to the Resolute Aim trait or just make the Resolute Aim effect last longer?
Maybe ZC could take the opportunity this weekend to come out on a hunter somewhere when the GM's are creepside. Let him see for himself both the elation of that stealth HS crit, and the pain of running around out there with either no morale or no dps.
I'd hope he'd try a couple different builds for his hunter:
Build 1 - DPS: Dragon Armor, teal agi jewelry, offhand and agi dragon cloak. Extraordinary Settings of Endings, T7 Crit gems, Runes that give RO.
Build 2 - Mixed: PVP armor, Seeker's Blade, PVP rings, Theodred's morale earrings, bracelets and pocket. True settings of continuance, PVP runics in gem slots, True Runes of the Two Trees.
For your bow, Induction and Focus Crit, Barbed Arrow Bleed, Heartseeker Damage, Burn Hot Damage, Quick Shot Crit
For your melee, Max AOE targets, Crit Mag in Precision, Needful Haste Duration, Stealth Detect, Agi Rejoinder Heal,
Class builds try a bowmaster and then a huntsman, right up to the capstone.
Try an AOE build: Deadly Precision, Hail of Arrows, Critical Eye, Arrow Storm
Try a Mixed build: Rapid Recovery, Heightened Senses, Barbed Hindrance, Swift Recovery, Resolute Aim, Fast Draw
I'd be willing to pay all kinds of money to watch.
*well, sure, I imagine SS as crit-resets-cd-on-RoA version; but without trait buff it is still lower chance and weak focus-bringer
If we have no real need for AoE, current version of SS, even with increased radius, is pretty pointless.
If, however, we are getting Focus generation, even at the cost of targets, we can use SS in any encounter as poor brother of ISB as long as there are at least two mobs. Sure, it has way lower dps output, but animation of ISB makes it less uneven - and ISB has 10s c/d these days. IQS has a *chance* to crit & *chance* to generate third focus pip while SS pretty much guarantees them instead.
It's not great, but it is better.
And if we boost range & keep +targets we will get... well, Rain of Arrows. With induction. I am all for getting useful stuff, but cloning skills is not high on my list.
Last edited by Ferthcott; Dec 08 2011 at 07:08 PM.
1) Bright Campfire. Meh. More ICPR/ICMR is always nice for boss fights but other than that its hardly a burning (pun intended) issue. It's very rare that OOC either solo or in groups that this is a major problem.
2) Hunter's Art. If it is a buff, then let it be cast as a buff. If it is an attack then give it attack level damage or it MUST have a bonus that justifies the loss in damage that using it causes. The S:E buff doesn't justify being in S:E in the first place , the S:P buff is largely useless by the time people have the Draigoch armour they have enough Finesse anyway , the S:S buff is at least worth damage but the trouble is most people still want to run in S:P because of the crit legacy for S:P. What is the purpose of this buff? At the moment it just feels like a mismash of ideas all lumped onto a single skill without a clear plan for when a hunter would actually use it.
3) Split Shot changes. Again why ? At the moment you if you want to AOE you trait for it for Rain of Arrows spam and the only time you cast Split Shot is when you don't get a crit on RoA and have to wait for it to reset. RoA>>>>>>>Split Shot. Making a skill which is already secondary worse won't help it. Given it has a slow induction it needs more damage (quite a bit more). The trouble is most fights go trash, trash, trash, boss which means you fight them RoA, RoA,RoA, single target dps. If you want to AoE RoA is always better and has traits and potentially a legacy as well (if you take it back off SS) to support it. What would be the point of SS then? The only way it will be useful is if for 2/3 targets it does significantly more damage than traited RoA would do.
4) Trapper. Nobody traits it. I've never met a single hunter who is yellow spec ever. There are a few individual traits that are useful but on the whole the utility is not enough to give up the dps specs. Some of the yellow traits are also PVP specific and have no application at all in PVE which is another reason why you don't see people in general running 5Y. Hunters already have CC without traiting any yellow that is enough for most situations (OOC trap, in combat crafted trap, Bard's Arrow, Rain of Thorns, Melee stun, snare + kite ). It is a very rare situation that you will be going somewhere that needs more CC than that when a group won't also want a LM or Burg for specialist CC. Being the 3rd best CC class after specifically traiting for it doesn't really result in a lot of use especially when the cost is giving up being the best dps class which is the primary role of the hunter. (Also AOE tanking is so strong in this game most groups no longer cc ANYTHING in general play. If groups don't need cc specfically the yellow line becomes even less relevent).
5) Legacies. It just means there is no real choice in legacies for hunters. You may as well just ship hunter LI bows with +Induction Crit +Focus Crit on them as standard as nobody will ever use a bow that doesn't have both anyway. Legacies in general for hunter LIs need a rework many of them are useless.
6) HS .. what can you say for every big hit you get the ones where it does 2k dmg. It's slow , it has a long induction time it needs to do dmg more consistently. I can insta cast Penetrating Shot that will Devastate for > Heartseeker average dmg and I can fire 4 of them in the time I can shoot one HS. The reality is that most of the time especially in PVE you are better off specifically not using this skill.
7) Ranged Interrupt. Shame, but not surprising.
8) Again not surprising.
9) Blindside. Good. Having an interrupt that has a long animation before casting makes it very hard to use reliably.
10) Needful Haste. Don't see the issue here with current duration and it is still most definately worth using.
To me, Split Shot, even with a moderate increase to radius to 4 or 5m (the current 2m is just ridiculous), could have been that nice filler between RoA chains regardless of crit resets. Even with crits, RoA does not reset instantaneously, and that small frame of wait-time is IMO better used to squeeze in another skill. Do you just stand and do nothing while waiting for RoA to reset? I use that time to fire off either PS/BlA if I can afford the focus, or iQS if I can't. Unfortunately, all these are single-target skill and I would much rather have a functional SS as an AOE filler in an AOE situation. The proposed change does not fill that gap for me.
Considering, especially, with the huntsman raid set getting the "SS crit reset RoA" bonus in Update 5, it's pretty obvious that it's better to have more targets to hit on to trigger that reset than to have mere 2~3 pip focus generation. I can easily generate focus from elsewhere.
So, yes, I'm still not convinced that it's great or even better. It's just different, and with the proposed version, I'm not sure what place it fills in either AOE or single target rotations.
I tried using IQS, but became disheartened by the fact its induction & animation set was definitely longer than freeze period in-between RoAs. And, as you said, it is single-target only - I'd rather save that small chunk of time, multiply it by 10 or even 20, depending on chain, and fire off as many RoAs as possible before one or two mobs decide to die earlier (due to concentration of stdps) and make crit farming harder. I am not sure why that freeze even exists - especially seeing crit numbers floating but still waiting for reset makes me wonder if it is all WAI.
Also, I recall being able to use RoA even when skill was still greyed out because of "lack" of focus, already granted by crits. So that waiting time might be even shorter than it... well, looks. I am tempted to test it in different setups (inductions being affected by red, blue, IF) at some point, but in the end differences will matter in small fraction of fights when those seconds are everything - probably in moors, but not (current) PvE.
If there was Focus generation added, I would not be using SS as dps skill - sure, focus can be generated elsewhere - in ST enviroment IQS/ISB are better; with three mobs and blue - SS becomes superior option. I do not expect we could get both +target AND Focus per hit, unless it is (again) Focus per crit. Which wouldn't be so bad either.
I don't think SS has any place in ST rotation, with or without bonus - the same case as RoA, really, so focus generation changes nothing in that department.
Reset chances are being killed by that change - and that is beyond discussion. Though while against big bunch of mobs/creeps, achieving reset is not an issue - getting *three* focus back from each RoA is a serious one. Against three mobs reset is indeed hard to get - but lack of +targets won't affect SS in such fights.
Last edited by Ferthcott; Dec 08 2011 at 09:58 PM.
First, thanks for answering and communicating. That's half the battle.
+1 focus per Split shot target hit is a useful upgrade to the skill. I still will rarely use the skill unless there is a meaningful DPS upgrade. I'm not in beta, so that remains to be seen. Right now though, the radius, damage, and induction are all out of whack. The skill is currently pathetic in my opinion, so I'm glad its being looked at.
The changes to Hunters Art sound like they are going in the right direction, but again, we'll have to wait until update 6. That's a long time away. Until then, this skill will remain underused and a waste of a slot on my quickslot bar.
I've used Trapper before and post-RoI release. I only slot it when taking an outpost in the Moors solo. The traitline has great CC potential. But, I feel like I'm shooting a bow that had its LI points reset and I forgot to upgrade the DPS. Its such a weak line when it comes to damage. Since the diminishing returns are so harsh in the Moors, the entire Trapper traitline is really Trapper of Fail for PvP purposes. Its horrendous. Now, for PvE & Trapper. Like I said, if I can fight a CC-able mob, I can handle it quite well. But, in terms of large group action, there is no reason to take a hunter for CC, there are other classes that really truly excel at CC: LM and burg. The hunter can do sufficient CC without slotting Trapper for nearly all raid type roles. That is the problem really. Hunter CC is solid enough without Trapper to justify any advantages the traitline provides.
Last edited by Odin_of_Freyr; Dec 09 2011 at 12:16 AM.
2) Sounds like an interesting change.
3) So, Split Shot with Rain of Arrows like Damage and Radius is too strong, but Rain of Arrows itself is not, simply because it requires Focus?
4) The amount of CC? Really? Bard's Arrow and Rain of Thorns are Legendary, not tied to the Trapper line, so you should not count them. We can also basically have 1 Trap out, which is 1 root, and if you actually go far enough in Yellow to slot Explosive Arrow, we have 1 chain mez. So if you don't use Bard's or Thorns, we can CC 2 mobs, and that's enough? Don't get me started on the "debuffs" that this line brings...2 of them, 1 from Pen. Shot, 1 from Spring-Loaded traps. Laughable really.
5) This should have been done a while ago into Bow Skill legacies. Having to slot 2 Legacies for Power reduction and 2 for Crit Multiplier really doesn't leave much room for customization.
6) I think they mean the +damage of Heart Seeker consuming the bleed from Barbed Arrow. 610 extra damage is really, really under scaled and kinda lame when I can do that much damage from just tossing in another Quick Shot.
7) So if the Mob is immune to CC, we don't get a ranged interrupt. Just tack an Interrupt onto one of our other bow skills, like the Guardian Dev did with Shield Smash. It STILL INTERRUPTS if the mob is Stun Immune.
8) Eff that, just tack on a -0.2 Induction onto Improved Quick Shot, it's supposed to be Quick afterall
9) Perhaps also make Blindside an Immediate so it can cancel out a long induction skill...say we're loading up Swift Bow at Melee range and notice the mob is starting an induction. I really don't want to wait until Swift Bow is finished or move, then stop, THEN toss Blindside since you have to be rooted to use it.
10) 30s Duration, 1m CD with maxed out Legacy AND Traited. Personally I think if you trait for it and dump max points into a Legacy, you should be able to keep it up longer if you're willing to spend the Focus.
Last edited by Eckenbrand; Dec 09 2011 at 12:22 AM.
I'm still under the SS sucks tent, even with the idea you described. With how you just described it, it might make it onto my toolbar to rot rather than in my skills menu .
I really like the hunters art idea, tiers and refresh would be far more useful. But at the end of the day, it's GOT to tier up more than 2 tiers in order for that obnoxiously long animation to be worth it.
I now almost exclusively use trapper for Helegrod Spiders, as the group wide poison cure is useful at times. If that was moved from the set bonus to a single trait and the 15s cooldown was reduced I could see it becoming much more useful.
Now it looks like I can hit only 3 targets in a 3-5m radius instead of 8 in a 2m radius?
I'd rather have the 8 in the 2m radius, simply because there are a lot of times that mobs are that close up on the tank, especially in Skirm raids or other raids that are trash-heavy (Spider Wing, Giant Wing, Drake Wing anyone?)
Every DPS class is supposed to have reliable ST and AOE DPS now, right?
With the removal of the AOE legacy affecting Split Shot, the 3-piece Huntsman (Split Shot crit resets Split Shot and Rain of Arrows) went from "I think I'll actually use that for raids" to "...meh"
More Targets = More chances to crit = More chances to reset RoA and Split shot = More reliable AOE DPS
Survivability is such an epic nerf that no amount of tinkering is going to compensate.
And I don't think our disdain for ToF is due to being misled by our guts either. It's due to it being useless on an epic, beyond all redemption, scale.
Last edited by Kongas; Dec 09 2011 at 07:50 AM.
Improved Scourging Blow + Barbed Arrow is too slow, there should be some Immediate in there.
Wine Wine Wine. Dry Dry Dry. What will it be today ?...
Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe.
~John J. Rambo
Changes sound pretty good.I'd prefer it if HA was a non aggro and maybe non dmging/applying a bleed skill with reduced focus cost.SS use right now is very situational but i guess it ll get better..i ll have to test it though..
I only use campfire mostly for showoff nowdays...it used to be useful but as it doesnt scale...Ok regen isnt a problem with experienced players as every1 usually has food with them but the in combat bonuses would be good too..or maybe a buff that would be appropriate with some of the changes im suggesting below(for example -%cd timers/gives a reaction effect(like hunter parry agile rejoinder guardians blocking captains death effect and so on to a random member of the fellowship every 10s)
I d like to see TOF becoming a buffer/debuffer line with some stealth capabilities like make it something like Path of the Ranger giving a skill/trait for stealth or a bonus from firing from stealth,give Purge Poison more utillity like giving a temporary ICMR or ICPR affecting all fellowship or a stat bonuses like that mini anthem(forget the name) or make it stance-related to cure debuffs based on stance :Precision->removes Disease and gives Disease resistance Strength Stance ->Remove wound&add res Endurance->remove fear&add res.
Maybe give HA an utillity again tied to stances or similar to the captains mark making it a tiered buff/debuff that reduces foes dmg or returns morale/power/adds ranged defence to attacker.I dont remember all the traits from yellow line(as i never have traited even one of them) to provide replacements but i guess i could come up with some.As blue line is (imho)->speed,movement(sustained dps) red line ->big hits(burst dps) yellows line should be somewhere in the middle of them giving u less dps(not by a -%dmg trait/traitline stat but because u dont use the main dps traits)but letting u make up for it in the long long run by supporting ur group and putting dmg buffs on urself and debuffing ur target.
So in landscape mobs 2-4 yellow line should be somewhat lesser than the other lines in terms of dps but in group content and more mobs it should give more surviveabillity and utillity.With stealth improved traps and more utillity it would also be much funnier to play like a pseudo-burglar
We also need more survivabillity(and not in the cost of dps).An evade seems the best option to me (like the BAs evade-i dont want a carbon copy but too many good ideas have been implemented on them)or a bubble with a -icpr/power drain to balance it after the bubble wears off.A sprint would also be good or make the Find the path bonus innate and make it a skill that gives the bonus in combat too like some1 suggested.Maybe a yellow trait with a +250% armor bonus and +icmr ?
The changes to Legacies are a good start make it for the the threat legacies too to allow more customizabillity.Currently there r usually 4 must-have legacies so most players cant put something to suit their playstyle without hurting their dps.
Also please fix some bugs(couldnt u fix them in update 5 could u? :P).Some1 posted a link to the forums post but especially the duration of Improved Focus and Strength of the Earth(they last 4s instead of 5).
A stance like Skirmishers stance(here we go again)would be useful too or put this into IF with IQS PS BlA Barbed Arrow useable on the move.Maybe in yellow line??
Have some other suggestions too but this had become a wall of text already.To sum up TOF is mostly useless as it is now.Make it so we have a reliable 2nd role and a different playstyle too that all players will enjoy.Improvements on the skills u mentioned r good ZC.Keep up the good work(ok sort of).Please dont let the hunter community down.We r counting on u:P
Last edited by Shadeslayer_withywindle; Dec 09 2011 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Came up with more :P
I agree on the group-wide poison cure. I don't slot it or trait far enough to use it simply because of the wretched 15s cooldown. If the CD was reduced, then the traitline would have more benefit.
I was about to hit 'submit reply', but the more I thought about it.... The Trapper line really really sucks. There's so little to gain and so much to lose by going down that line.
Split shot... The main two complaints about it are the induction and the dps (either single target dps on each target or total dps on all targets due to its short radius). Since its meant to be a filler skill in an AOE rotation, how about leaving it as is, but instead of adding focus (I do like the focus idea though) at the loss of max targets aoe impacting it, it becomes a debuffing skill to enhance AOE (allowing us to leave the max targets AOE impact)? Some debuffing ideas:
- reduction to B/P/E on targets hit
- Increased crit chances on targets hit
- attack speed slowed on targets hit
- movement speed slowed on targets hit
- reduces finesse on targets hit
- increased incoming damage on targets hit
- decreased outgoing damage on targets hit
If you put the duration of the of the debuff at about 10 seconds it wouldn't quite be spammable, and even if there were only one target, there'd be a benefit to using the skill despite the induction and low damage. To keep it from becoming OP, leave the radius at 2m.
Edit: Actually the more I think about it, the more I like reducing Finesse. There really aren't any debuffs that do this, are there?. It'd give us a unique role and useful in instances and pvp.
Last edited by Estranger; Dec 09 2011 at 03:13 PM.
Instead of all the same rehashes and endless rebalances ( which will occur anyways), add a couple more trait lines for *each* class. You guys did it when moria came out, it is time again.
If you don't want posts about blowing up certain lines, this is the only real option and provides for diversity and keeps players from becoming bored with their classes.
Last edited by newbismo; Dec 09 2011 at 03:46 PM.
My wants are simple... another slot in each area (virtue/race/class/legendary)
Though I would be happy with just class and legendary slots added...
Oh yes... its about time to have another legendary trait added to every class.
I don't want to see another trait line added, mostly because of the massive changes that would be required (more skills, deeds, etc).
Legendary traits on the other hand have a history of diverse methods to acquire, from page drops to instances to epic quest rewards. Thus they would be simple additions code wise, and having a slot unlock at 75 isn't beyond the bound of rationality.
Oh yes, a skill that reduces enemy finesse? Good thoughts....
Split shot wouldn't be the most logical place for it though, that would actually be distracting shot/explosive arrow. "Just just got hit with a bomb and you think I am focused enough to get my blows through the enemy b/p/e?"
Another idea on split shot:
As ZC said, increase the radius to 5 meters, add the +1 focus for every target hit, but leave the Max AOE legacy application on it. Leave its damage and induction as is. To balance it, increase the CD to two minutes. Basically it becomes an offensive Intent Concentration.
's in line with QS then sure. I'm not really a fan of the huffing and buffing style the hunter has become (yea I'm a noob pew pewer) so I really like the idea of increased duration on hunters art..better yet make it a power eater and toggle-able like minstrel tales, we already have to buff at fight beginnings and buff burn hots etc..it just feels clunk-ish needing to line up CD buffage.
I play an LM at raid level also, and there is very little chance I will ever need to use ToF unless somehow there is sufficient group poison added at intervals slow enough for the skill CD but faster than pots CD, some people think a hunter competes with an LM for CC...even if we counted mez as same using a bow set up for it it's just not true, sure max targets can give a one off better root, but stuns and ability to continually kite/root mean we are still sub par, but I get where our damage is already high by comparison so that's how it should be, just saying ToF is likely to remain in the background for soloers who like attempting to be strategic, so changes made to that line are still likely to be largely a waste of time for most hunters (ala campfire etc)
Q. What state do you live in?
while we're at it how bout a ranged skill called "arrow to the knee" which knocks down targets and then makes them complain about it :P
Last edited by jchudz; Dec 09 2011 at 10:48 PM.
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