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  1. #76

    Thumbs up Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    2) Hunter's Art is changed
    My thought for Hunters Art are:
    • Slightly increase damage
    • Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
    Perfect for me. But the animation of Hunter's Art is too slow. When you're using a lot of fast skills, stop for using a slow skill like Hunter's Art seems to be wasting time, even for the buffs.

    3) Split Shot is changed
    My thoughts for Split shot are:
    • Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
    • Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
    • Slightly increase radius
    • Slightly increase damage
    Perfect for me. But make the animation faster. When the induction is over, you still need to wait a bit until the char actually shoots.

  2. #77
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Thanks for taking a look at the list ZC. Big props to the OP for maintaining this thread! I guess we should transition to responding to ZC now. So here I go...

    I am very jazzed about the top 3 points. Campfire buffs in-combat have always been something I wanted. I still think it should only be usable out of combat, but the benefits remain once you enter combat. This could play into fellowship positioning, and stacking it with the RK's stone and the Minstrel's healing ring could really help buff the group at the start of a fight.

    About Hunter's Art, I don't understand the fact that it does damage and that there is a visual effect on the enemy without us actually shooting at them. It seems reminiscent of the RK's non-aggro debuff, but we don't have any of those kind of magic-type powers so it seems out of character. The effects are also not debuffs on the enemy but buffs on us. I'd rather Hunter's Art just became a non-damaging buff similar to how Needful Haste functions. Tiering up is fine, but keep the focus cost down, like 1 focus cost per tier. I am happy to add another buff into my rotation to maintain. I'm already doing that with Needful Haste and Improved Fleetness. It mixes things up from just using attack skills, and forces me to constantly manage my focus pool. I would use this skill if it did not aggro and was not too costly in focus.

    I agree with all the thoughts about split shot. I'd say you could just restrict it to two targets max, but let the limitation of targets push the damage to be more substantial...or at very least reduce the induction time. Adding more focus per baddie hit also sounds like a cool idea, so you could go that route, but even still if it doesn't hit hard or takes too long, I'm still not really going to use it.

    Edit: My bad, I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to the Hunter's Art animation, with the whole empowering and firing of the arrow. I made a point of watching it after this post. Still think it would be more useful as a straight non-aggro buff.
    Last edited by WiltenRose; Dec 08 2011 at 01:03 PM.

  3. #78
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    I used to use trapper line before RoI but now have gone more for the red line, why? The loss of root on penetrating shot, the needful haste duration is not good enough to make up for the dps loss training yellow, and a few other things which I will comment on when I get to my pc tomorrow (on phone) there just isn't enough good stuff to make it worthwhile.

  4. #79
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    AW: Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post

    1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
    The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...
    i would suggest that the camp-fire gives the half hout of combat values like Burst if Revovery ( so 1380 power and 1608 moral).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    2) Hunter's Art is changed
    My thought for Hunters Art are:
    • Slightly increase damage
    • Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

    i would prefer the tier up effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    3) Split Shot is changed
    My thoughts for Split shot are:
    • Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
    • Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
    • Slightly increase radius
    • Slightly increase damage

    i would take the + 1 focus per target hit here

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
    I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.
    in my opinion there is just one thing that needs to be changed to make a really good traitline: pruge poison must be usable without any cooldowns and effect full fellowship. for me currently it is in the most known situation better not to have 4 traits of the traitline equipped, so i can take the poision one by one, but more frequently. or: give pruge poision an trippe as high resist rate against poision (so 9129)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post

    5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
    I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.
    it might also be nice, maybe in additional to that to have the possiblity to select the legacys for each traitline. currently i have one bow for two of my high-dps traitlines (huntsman and bowmaster) with no differents on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
    Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...
    its fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    7) Ranged Interrupt
    Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.
    we have 1 save and up to 5(mostly ranged) against mobs that are not immune to crod control. thats enought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
    Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.
    couldn't you make it like this:
    if in improved fleetness: IQS does not grant any focus points, but is usable while moving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
    Will do, absolutely.
    it would also be nice to have blindesite as an immediate skill. there is notthing more frustraiting to see you ISB at 95% and the guy now need an interrupt. if the ISB animation is finished the interrup comes to late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
    If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.
    i as a bowmaster hunter am using this skill defnetly not at colldown - the benefits for me are not that high.
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  5. #80

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    I used to trait Yellow when soloing in moors or when hanging out with a small group of kinnies. But I never really got too good at being a CC person. It didn't/doesn't have a good enough benefit for traiting yellow rather than the 5b/2r i trait now. Sure i can stun a mob for a few secs/pew pew him down/fear him/pew pew him. Rinse/Repeat.

    But it just seemed too stale. I havent traited too much into Yellow post RoI but dabbled with it in the moors a few times. While the damage penalties being removed made it more worthwhile, the lack of the root in PS, made it less effective when in larger raids. (imo)

    I wouldn't mind seeing the Yellow line changed into a buffer line akin to minstrel anthems. Or rather have more debuffs put onto mobs. Something that keeps it fast paced like blue and red lines.
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  6. #81
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Forgive my noobness but I do not know what tiering for hunter's art means. Its long, awkward animation that breaks the flow of combat will need to be addressed though.

    Your suggested improvements for split shot are amazing. It just went from skill I have not quick-slotted to a must use skill when facing multiple enemies with no focus.

    Combat traps should not only allow 'set traps' to be used in combat. Also, the damage from set snare is very low and, as mentioned by the poster above, I miss the rooting from penetrating shot. Other than that, ToF is pretty competent solo but is too weak to be our secondary role in fellowships.

    Lastly, thanks for not forsaking hunters.

  7. #82

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    My thought for Hunters Art are:[*]Slightly increase damage[*]Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
    - whatever happens, Endurance buff needs scaling to actually offset power cost of HA itself.
    - I have a feeling stacking AND refreshing buffs could become a reason to nerf buffs themselves, so... perhaps equivalent of Writ of Well-Being added to legacy / recycled trait instead?

    Or, since we are lacking dedicated legacy or traits for HA... how about additional incentive to trait 4+ or red/blue/*yellow* capstone linked with Hunter's Art?

    For example:
    - if traited deep red (4, 5, capstone, whatever) - X % of hunter's dps applies to target's power as well; not stackable, scaled for moors to prevent immediate draining PvE bosses / creeps' outrage

    - if traited deep blue - something like -X% AD

    - if traited deep yellow - either a standard, boring debuff (inc damage, + AD, + inductions, etc, etc), or something different than LM/Burg-lite ---> + X % threat generated by mob's current target; it could give HA *and* Yellow additional support role and in the process help puggish tanks a little - as long as they can hold aggro for more than few seconds

    It would be also great as Stealthraidwipeskill, Rain of Arrows is too hard to hide

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    My thoughts for Split shot are:[*]Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)[*]Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
    ...with stuff above it is already enough, even without the rest - but this is also biased blueliner speaking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
    The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in.
    It is telling that nobody bothered to mention Threat legacies. How about consolidating those two and adding threat management instead? For example, legacy that adds small % of permanent threat reduction to BN?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are (...) to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.
    It didn't change that much. Content, on the other hand, changed significantly. Between RoI and U5 cluster there is/was simply no incentive to bother with CC. Skirmish (mini)bosses shrug it off, Bugraigoch laughs at it and with +10lv over previous endgame instances it is not as crucial to follow CC script. Assuming people run them for more than nostalgia. I'd rather not speak about landscape application of Yellow, we might as well trait Pink and Magenta for solo content, it won't make a difference with the rare exceptions, usually based on personal preference.

    That said, I had great fun with Yellow in EotD version, though mostly thanks to Poison/Disease, sometimes Fear. I might be biased, it wouldn't be the same without people that made it so interesting. I still remember unlucky pull that left three people alive and CC/DPS spam with LM and Minstrel until last Kergrim finally died. Sure, it was Burglar-ish, but if debuffing is enhanced in some unique direction, that problem will be gone.

    Personally, I would wait with passing a judgement over ToF *after* we can experiment with U5 cluster.


    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by NecrosIX View Post
    Tiering for hunter's art
    I assume it would be similar to current stacking of HA buffs, but with single timer instead of two buffs ticking independently, refreshed with each application of HA.
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Dec 07 2011 at 03:38 PM.

  8. #83
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Thank you for posting, ZC. Here's some brains for you to munch on while you read my wall of text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    {1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs}
    The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...
    Here’s the deal with the OOC regen amounts… In order for us to find BC useful (absent any kind of in-combat buff which would be muy perferrable), it has to be comparable to OOC food regen or destiny point regen. Doesn’t have to be better than or equal to. Just somewhere in the realm of.

    My thought for Hunters Art are (and) My thoughts for Split shot are:
    Win.

    {Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line.} I'm really hesitant here… My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.
    Okay, the TOF line… Trust us, it’s based on experience. There are three issues with the trapper line and you can break them down into the three “realms” of playing that we do: Open World (questing), Instancing (grouping, with an emphasis on raids) and PVP.

    The first issue with the trapper line is that without traiting it, our CC is still very potent. For example, we don’t need to trait combat traps because if we need traps in combat, we can drop crafted traps. We don’t need barbed hindrance because we have two other slows (though I’m in the minority and LOVE barbed hindrance). We don’t need Strong Intimidation because in so many situations, where a feared mob can aggro previously un-aggro’d mobs, an extra 5 seconds is dangerous and can be detrimental. We don’t want heightened senses. It’s nearly useless in any realm but PVP and it should be innate anyway. And as potent as Explosive Arrow is, we don’t need it because we have fears and traps to supplement our daze.

    The Second issue with Trapper is that there’s rarely, if ever, CC in boss fights. ToF is a potent CC line. Especially prior to ROI when Burgs couldn’t riddle nature and LM’s couldn’t mezz dead (maybe they still can’t), Explosive Arrow could handle them all. There’s no argument that a trapper traited hunter is not an effective CC class. It’s that rarely do we need that much CC. It’s too situational. OD has a lot of instances where a trapper traited hunter could excel. And with the new raid coming, and the new Anger mechanic, there’s even greater opportunities. But the weakness of the line is always, “Ok hunters, the trash is cleared, we’re at the boss, go retrait for DPS.” In other words, whenever we are in ToF and see its value, there’s always a place in the same instance where it’s no longer valuable anymore.

    The Third issue with Trapper is there’s no value to it in PVP. I know, I know. We don’t balance the game for pvp. But it is part of the game. And because of CC pots and Diminishing Returns on CC, there’s no value in traiting it other than Barbed Hindrance and Heightened Senses (which we want innate).

    So, in Open World, ToF no good because our untraited CC is more than enough. In Instances, while it can be potent situationally, ultimately its no good because we are traiting out of it for boss fights. And in PVP its no good because of creep pots and Diminishing Returns.

    Please. Kill it.

    Turn it into a melee line. Yes, the hunters here bitched to high heaven when you even mentioned it. But they were wrong. Do your thing and let us try it out in Beta.

    Turn it into a support line. Let us cure wounds, diseases, fears. Heal morale and power. Give Stun Immunity. Rez. We’re hunters, we should have woodlore. There’s a role there.

    Turn it into a ranged tanking line. Give us a trait that returns our threat component, adds armor or morale, a bubble to Press Onward. I understand it could become OP quickly, but there's another role there that we've lost and would like to fill.

    But no more trapper. Please.

    Please keep Barbed Hindrance around. :-)

    {5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power}
    I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in
    I don’t think it’s that we’re specifically after the DPS increase. It’s that we want customizability options. We’re locked in on Focus and induction crit and it take up all our points. Reduce the magnitude even if that’s the concern. It’d be nice to max all six legacies, whichever legacies we may choose them to be.

    {6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart}
    Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...
    Heartseeker is only good when it crits. Often, a non crit heartseeker is going to hit for far below the tool tip damage listed even. So we’re using all that power, and all that induction time and praying for a crit. Not a satisfactory way to fight.

    Shot through the heart isn’t as good anymore because we’re using HS most often in combination with Improved Focus. But that buff is so short, we can’t send in a barbed arrow first to take advantage of the Shot Through the Heart bonus.

    {10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored}
    If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.
    The issue with Needful Haste has less to do with the skill specifically than it does with how Resolute Aim impacts it. We’ve long relied on Resolute Aim to use our inductions with melee on us. With the reduction in duration to NH, we’re getting less time of with those non-interrupted inductions. We’re feeling the pain. Accutely.
    Last edited by Estranger; Dec 07 2011 at 03:42 PM.

  9. #84
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    2) My thought for Hunters Art are:
    • Slightly increase damage
    • Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
    3) My thoughts for Split shot are:
    • Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
    • Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
    • Slightly increase radius
    • Slightly increase damage
    4) I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

    5) I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

    10) If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.
    2) I just started playing an RK personally, so I've just been exposed to the Writs. Love this idea being applied to Hunter's Art. It would definitely find its way back to my slots at the very least with this change.

    What would happen if one was to stance-dance with this version of Hunter's Art? Say I got the Precision bonus and switched to Strength... would it clear the Precision bonus or would I have both buffs? I kind of like the idea of being able to have both for a short time, but say the buff lasts for 30s and the skill has a CD of 20s. You'd be able to have both buffs up at the same time but the one you applied first would be lost before you could tier it up again. Could add some interesting strategy... stack a couple Finesse buffs, switch to Strength to gain the damage buff, at the cost of losing your tiered Finesse but a good time to really blast something with Heartseeker or something.

    3) The worst part about Split Shot is the radius. If you can improve that part it might actually be usable. I'd also like to see Arrow Storm to affect that skill as well, though maybe not by the same numbers.

    And what I'd really like to see on this topic is Rain of Arrows, Split Shot, and Low Cut all granting some kind of bonus to one of the other skills, kind of how Scourging Blow and Barbed Arrow work together now. I got bored at work one day and planned out certain ways that could work, though I'm sure most hunters would be outraged at the RoA change.

    Split Shot crit resets cooldowns on Rain of Arrows
    Rain of Arrows crit removes induction from Split Shot
    Low Cut crit lowers focus cost of Rain of Arrows by one

    4) I've used it before and after, though sparingly on both. While I understand you're worried about making the trait line too powerful, it's still quite underpowered. A lot of the traits seem to be a mish-mash of whatever doesn't fit into the other lines, thus making it odd to hit the capstone with related traits. A couple of the traits seem to be ones that you'd use only if primarily traiting a different color (like 5 reds, and throw in the power reduction yellow one) as opposed to using while yellow traited. Personally, if I'm traited yellow I'm probably not going to care about the cooldown on my HS being reduced whenever I fear something with Bard's Arrow. I'm probably shooting it for the CC. I'm also probably not going to care about threat, as there's a very likely chance that if I'm traited yellow it'll be either solo where threat doesn't matter, or in a group where someone will out-threat me since I'm not traited for DPS. The trap damage one is useless since both trap and snare do such insignificant damage, 25% more isn't noticeable at all. And the incoming damage buff for Set Trap is either bugged, or so short that I don't ever see it on the mob.

    I would like to see Set Snare usable in combat with the same trait that allows Set Trap, but that's not too important. I would also like to see the capstone at +25 seconds or include a reduction to Distracting Shot's cooldown, as currently LMs can lock down one mob permanently (or two with very very little uptime for either mob or with the +5s from DN or the new CC set) and burgs can keep one locked down as long as the hunter can, but can trait to both add a stun at the beginning of the mez or extend the mez by an extra 5s, thus guaranteeing that the mob will not move, and neither of those involve traiting 5 deep as ours does.

    5) A couple of the legacies do need work, but I'm personally fine with the crit legacies as is. Makes you decide if you really want to put both on, or if you want to put just one on based on your traitline (focus crit for blue, induction for red). That being said, I wouldn't complain if they got combined (I believe champs have one legacy for our two essentially) and I definitely wouldn't mind seeing power combined into one legacy, as it is currently I don't put either on because there's other legacies I'd rather put on. If it affected all skills (to include the melee ones in addition to focus and induction skills) it may be more useful. I think Low Cut could stand to be changed to a 100% chance at max as Agile Rejoinder was, and Agile Rejoinder I believe needs to scale a bit better on the heal (or perhaps be affected by Tactical Mastery, and have Agility give 5 points to Tac Mastery, as Might does for Wardens).

    10) I'm personally a fan of the change to Needful Haste. It used to be up for 30 seconds with a cooldown of 2 minutes, and now it's 15 seconds with a cooldown of 1 minute, correct? Without the legacy uptime remains the same (25%, although it's still about a second more with no animation now), but with the legacy Needful Haste has gone from being up 38% of the time before to being up 50% of the time now.
    Last edited by TinDragon; Dec 07 2011 at 09:41 PM.
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  10. #85
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    All those hunters on the wardens forums wanting Orion to comment on them, you can have him! I want ZC!!

  11. #86

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.


    9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
    Will do, absolutely.
    Hi ZC, thanks for answering.

    Just one point there: blindside also /needs/ two more things to even be ''viable'' as interrupt, since it's a melee skill (for a ranged class...)

    1) Immediate. Now it just takes too long, even if you try to interrupt your current inductions.
    2) Fluidity. Interrupt skills need to be fluid like clobber, addle, abrupt words...; The ''root'', the eternal animation makes is very annoying IMHO.

    Thanks.

  12. #87
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    #9
    This a def win ZC, last time I played my hunter was with a full hunter group doing great barrows.
    We all tried to do the interrupt so the dying wights wouldnt spawn the worms, but between internet
    timing, and the animation, it made you want to do some hair pulling.

    Granted I'll hate this in the moors as you can get away from the animation currently if you learn certain
    hunter's predictability, but it's a change hunter's deserve.
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  13. #88
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    AW: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    The induction of splitshot is too slow. I hope that'll also be changed.

  14. #89

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    We still have no real mention of any sort of survivability, or our crazy low morale. A revamp of DF to make it useful in the moors or something .. anything would be nice? At the moment it's either very low morale and good dps, or a higher morale pool and poor dps, but still being killed very quick and easily. Something would be nice!

  15. #90
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Regarding Split Shot...

    +1 focus per target is kinda useless IMO. It just sounds nice.

    Please keep the aoe target legacy effect.

    Let me explain.

    With some combination of Deadly Precision, Arrow Storm, Hail of Arrows, and Critical Eye, a hunter in an AOE situation gets to chain Rain of Arrows non-stop because the skill has very high chance to crit overall, it resets as long as it crits on one target, and it generates enough focus to cover its own cost as long as it crits on at least three targets. Rain of Arrows chain is basically self-sustaining. The more targets there are, the less likely it is for the hunter to fail to reset RoA or to generate enough focus to fire the next RoA. There is very little need to build focus specifically. My rotation in an AoE fight is basically RoA -> BlA/PS -> RoA non-stop if it feels like I have enough focus or RoA -> iQS -> RoA if it doesn't. The iQS in the second rotation isn't so much for focus generation, but more for its speed -- it's a fast induction skill I can squeeze in before the RoA reset kicks in, and the focus it gives is just a bonus.

    Basically, focus isn't an issue in an AOE fight until the number of mobs dwindles towards the end, at which point, the hunter might as well switch back to normal single target rotation to finish off the remainders. Granting additional focus generating ability to Split Shot but reducing its actual AOE capacity is IMO contradictory. In an AOE fight, what benefit do I gain from using a slow induction skill that generates focus I have little use for? Rain of Arrows already pay for itself most of the time. Even if I do get extremely focus-starved for some reason, a single iQS is still faster to pull off and usually adequate to feed my next Rain of Arrows.

    IMO, the Split Shot I want and would actually use in an AOE fight is:
    - wide enough with its radius to hit all the melee targets that are bunched up on all sides of the tank. This means 5m radius I guess? The issue with the current radius is that, unless everything is bunched up on the same side of the tank, Split Shot can't reach targets flanking the other side of the tank while I'm targetting things on the opposite side. I'm not proposing a huge radius increase to the effects of RoA or RoT, but just a small increase so it can hit everything around the tank will immediately make it a lot more attractive to use.
    - affected by aoe target legacy. It is an AOE skill by name and by definition. Please don't twist this. Seriously.
    - affected by Hail of Arrows trait crit bonuses, but maybe to a lesser extent so it doesn't become too overpowered.
    - affected by Arrow Storm trait reset on crit effect (but I guess this isn't happening because this is the exact bonus on the new huntsman raid set in update 5 )

    By increasing the radius and number of targets Split Shot can hit, and by increasing the chance the skill can crit, the skill by itself can already generate a lot of focus with crits from Deadly Precision. There's no need to change the base mechanics of the skill just so it can give more focus at the cost of less actual targets (and hence less actual DPS done in an AOE situation).
    Last edited by Tamiya; Dec 07 2011 at 07:23 PM.

  16. #91
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    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

    1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
    The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...
    OOC rege should be at least tripled. Incombat is nice idea, if you allow us to use it in combat too.


    2) Hunter's Art is changed
    My thought for Hunters Art are:
    • Slightly increase damage
    • Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs
    Not bad, if it will trigger on use, not on successful hit.

    3) Split Shot is changed
    My thoughts for Split shot are:
    • Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
    • Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
    • Slightly increase radius
    • Slightly increase damage
    All this skill needs is increased radius.

    4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
    I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.
    Comments on ToF: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...amp-suggestion

    To reiterate - dps+cc is not needed. I still can't find fellowship damage buffs (bpe debuff is not needed, every dps class has enough finesse; 10s debuff from trap is a joke if you count that). We need more raid utility as I have suggested in the thread linked above.


    5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
    I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.
    So because you think our DPS is too high we are penalized by poor legacies?

    9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
    Will do, absolutely.
    Since we are ranged class and blindside is melee skill, we should be able to use it on the move. I can't count times where rapid interrupt was needed and all other options failed, I ran to the target used Blindside only to be informed I can not use it on the move and the uninterrupted induction hurt the group badly.

    The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are my ideas on Split Shot and Hunters Art, and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.
    Only place I have used ToF was OD, and that was only in some special cases for few pulls or one boss fight. I had to retrait back to my normal setup after that. To say it again, pure dps+cc role is NOT needed in current state of the game. If ToF does not offer efficient alternative to burglar/lm buffs/debuffs, it will never be desirable traitline.

    For PvMP ToF is absolutely useless because of diminishing returns.

    edit: Oh and if you decided to turn eye on us hunters, please first fix the bugs : http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Hunter-Issues

    edit2: Please take a second look at Update 5 hunter armor set bonuses, feedback thread here in case you missed it : http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...er-Set-Bonuses.
    Last edited by Fin.; Dec 07 2011 at 08:29 PM.
    Farewell.

  17. #92
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    Oct 2010
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    2,833

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Does Hunters Art need to have a damage component? This seems like the kinda thing that was probably tried and decided on in Beta, but I think HA might be a lot more useful if it DIDNT have a damage component, and so could be used as a prebuff before a fight, in combination with Focus, without actually starting the fight...

    Ie, before a big fight, I'll throw down Burn Hot, Improved Fleetness, Improved Focus, and Needful Haste, then use a slow-traited Barbed Arrow as my pull. I'd throw a Hunter's Art in there somewhere too, if it didnt A) pull the target if I fired it before BA, or B) slow down my DPS rotation too much if I used it after BA.

    You could either speed it up so its a Fast skill (or whatever you call it) that doesnt interrupt your rotation as much, or you could make it non-damage (or both!) so that you could use it as a prebuff. As it stands, for most fights you're probably better off just using another high-damage skill, rather than spending the time firing off a HA for the small bonus it returns.

  18. #93
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    7

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
    The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...
    Yess!! but please don't 'wrap' it into any line.. hunters just don't use trapper line in a form it is now hmm.. or ever But in-combat buff for a fellowship would be nice to have!

    2) Hunter's Art is changed
    My thought for Hunters Art are:
    Slightly increase damage
    Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
    Up for that, but cut the first part of animation and through it away or replace it with better one, also make it feel less clanky

    3) Split Shot is changed
    My thoughts for Split shot are:

    Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
    Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
    Slightly increase radius
    Slightly increase damage
    I think its a great improvement, at least heading that way, but also i think it will work better if you cut away first part of induction animation ( hehe, again ) , thus making the whole induction shorter and usable I would start using it in my rotation

    4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
    I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.
    yep.. whenever a fellowship invites a hunter, they expect dps.. thus said, we have cc classes that do better job. But it could be changed into different support part - someone mentioned depoisoning, curing desease etc - something to look at here i think

    6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
    Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...
    Heartseeker only good if it crits, if it doesn't - totally useless, especially for the amount of time it takes to induct..

    8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
    Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.
    Hunter class is based on agility!!! As for now, i don't feel agile really some skills just have to be done on the move. I would love to be able to fight on the move ( at least some skills, and quick shot is a good one for that ).. For me hunter feels a bit rooted, can't move around much while fighting. PLease make us more agile, as the stat determines us to be such, to be able to change positions quickly without getting ''can't use that skill while moving'' message.

  19. #94
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    9,847

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    I'd like to see ToF be more geared towards solo survivability. Better melee skills and things like faster inductions for sote, and guaranteed heal on agile rejoinder.

    I also really like the idea of melee skills generating focus, this may require some cooldown adjustments, however. I know this came up before, but I still think it's a great idea.

    Problem with split shot for me is that it isn't strong enough to be an opener, and there are better ways to build focus (speaking from the perspective of a solo only hunter). The induction is too long for that. When you're out solo and handling multiple mobs, you really do want to burn that first mob down quick - dealing with just 1 or 2 is a LOT easier.

    If I've rooted or feared on a pull - then I'm not going to use it either - as I'll be concerned that it'll free 2 targets instead of one, and that it'll tag the feared/dazed target instead of the 2 I want to hit.

    Won't comment on hunter's art, as I just haven't used it very much. The animation is kinda long, and landscape fights are over so quick, buffing yourself kinda takes a backseat.
    Nerves, of the Brandywine.

  20. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    194

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    "The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback..........., and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since."

    Well, I've never met a hunter who used trapper...ever....the penalties to dps were just way too huge for the hunter to feel useful.....so enjoy the conversation if you can find any.

    Me, I've always wanted the improved CC, but just couldn't get around everyone expecting a hunter to have decent dps.

  21. #96

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post

    2) Hunter's Art is changed
    My thought for Hunters Art are:
    • Slightly increase damage
    • Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
    3) Split Shot is changed
    My thoughts for Split shot are:
    [LIST][*]Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)[*]Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit[*]Slightly increase radius[*]Slightly increase damage
    Not exactly sure what "tiering up" means. At any rate, you forgot one very common complaint about Hunter's Art. For being an instant skill, it's not very instant with the whole comic effect of, "Throw your hands in the air and say yeaa. Yeaa!" I think lots of hunters would like for this casting animation to go the way of the do do and just die a quick death.

    Regarding Split Shot, how "slight" is slight? That skill is totally situational in its current state. We only get use out of it if mobs are stacked on top of each other on a tank. That's how tiny the radius is right now. I'm thinking 5 - 8 yards to make it less situational and more utility. If the legacy won't effect it anymore, then it will always be 2 or 3 targets (depending on the trait bonus). It wouldn't be that unreasonable to have a 5 - 8 yard radius. I'd say 5 yards is a nice place to start testing in a future push on Bullroarer. Damage wise, it should be on par or close to Quickshot damage.

  22. #97

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    When I solo I trait for CC. It seems like most Moors hunters prefer DPS build, but I preferred my CC build out there as well. I am especially happy in RoI that the damage penalty is gone.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620501000004cc5f/signature.png]Qillyu[/charsig]

  23. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    101

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Thanks Ferthcott for the explanation about what tiering for hunter's art means. It's a good change then. Stacking, say, 3 +5% ranged damage from strength stance would be too attractive to ignore for boss fights.

    I would like to add that, come update 5, hunters will be the only medium armour class without ample compensation for the medium armour nerf that hit with RoI. So I would like to add my support to the suggestion by previous posters to allow more Hunter durability through ToF. This change alone will see ToF being used by hunters (especially PvMP'ers?) who do not enjoy being glass cannons. Maybe some of ToF's focus can be diverted to enhancing the other survival skills of hunters. Some traits like lengthening the fear duration (which risks drawing more aggro) and increasing the negligible trap damage are not really needed. Your suggestion to allow in-combat regen for bright campfire is a good start to making ToF more attractive. How about also letting our bright campfire accelerate the countdown timers on status ailments?
    Last edited by NecrosIX; Dec 08 2011 at 03:20 AM.

  24. #99

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    I really think that HA is very easy to improve and make a justified skill to use, since this skill as such has a healthy core:

    - remove stance relation
    - make it work for 30 seconds without stacking
    - give it all the benefits of all previous stances, but to lesser extent (f.e. like 3% damage, 400 finesse, 200 icpr).

    Numbers might be a bit low or high, but the idea is quite clear .
    Last edited by Quizzus; Dec 08 2011 at 02:56 AM.

  25. #100

    Re: What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus View Post
    Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

    Edit: Just to clarify, things I'm talking about here are potentials for Update 6. Update 5 is very much put to bed at this point.
    Thank you for your responses ZC. The one thing I'd like to see is a revamp to Bow of the Righteous to make it worthwhile in terms of power return - and perhaps even a tiny amount of morale.

    I haven't traited it since level 40. Intent Concentration healing 750 power per pop and Press Onward at 3:30CD mean I don't need power pots.

 

 
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