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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    385

    Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Below are the changes to stats as far as I can tell, with the launch of Isengard.

    Note: This post has been updated to reflect the changes to stats which occured with Update 5 (Dec. 2011).

    First a short look at the parts of the Isengard Release Notes (Sept. 2011) where stats are affected:


    • The caps on the base stats: Might, Agility, Vitality, Will and Fate have been completely removed (were 650).
    • The caps on Block, Parry, Evade, Incoming Healing and Critical Hit % chance have been increased to 25% (were 15%).
    • The caps on Outgoing Healing % and Resistance % chance have been increased to 50% (were 30%).
    • The caps on Offence % have been removed. The offence rating to % conversion has been enhanced (more below).
    • The caps on Mitigation % have been increased or removed (my own observation) (from 30% for Light Armour, 40% for Medium, 50% for Heavy).


    • The Mitigation rating to % conversion has been changed from a unique curve to 2: one for heavy armour and one for Medium and Light armour (more below).
    • Common Damage Mitigation is now built upon a new stat called Physical Mitigation (which is mitigation to player weapon type damage: Beleriand, Westernesse, and Ancient Dwarf).
    • Shadow, Lightning, Acid, Fire and Frost mitigations now build upon a new stat called Tactical Mitigation (more exactly: Non-Physical Damage Mitgation). Note that Light damage isn't listed, and some people have observed that they don't seem to have much mitigation, if any, to Light damage during the fight with Saruman. This may be a bug.
    • Mitigation by Source (reducing the incoming damage depending on the type of skill which caused it, irrespective of the type of damage itself), is all but phased out of the game. All pocket items and Virtues which had Melee Defence Rating and Ranged Defence Rating have been converted to Physical Mitigation (which is reduction of damage by type of damage). Similarly, all pocket items and Virtues which had Tactical Defence Rating have been converted to Tactical Mitigation (again, reduction of damage by type of damage). Very few items remain with the old bonuses:
      • The Legendary Class Item scrolls which added Melee/ranged/tactical defence rating, are still there.
      • The old, now unobtainable, gems and runes (relics) which had those defence ratings, are still there.
      • Heavy Shields still have the +10% Ranged Defence bonus (only Guardians can use these now; so basically a Guardian will get 10% less acid damage from an arrow that punctures his neck from the back because he's carrying a heavy shield.)
      • Update 5 (Dec. 2011) transformed the LI scroll Defence Ratings to Physical and Tactical Mitigation, as well as Defence Ratings on the old relics. Say bye-bye to Mitigation by Source (only mobs probably have this now).


    The game should take into account whatever defence rating you still have from these items.

    • A new stat was introduced, or rather a counter-stat, called Finesse. It allows the owner to lower the avoidance chances of his enemy. So it will lower your opponent's block, parry, evade (in the case of a melee attack) and resist (in case of a tactical attack) chances. It will also serve mobs and bosses that have Finesse to lower your own avoidances and resistances.


    • Almost all item bonuses that gave a bonus to a specific resistance type have been changed to give a single bonus to Resistance, a new stat. Wound, Poison, Fear and Disease Resistance Ratings all use the new Resistance Rating stat as their starting value. Class skills or pots can still increase a specific resistance type further.


    • Almost all item bonuses that gave a bonus to a specific Critical Hit Rating type (melee/ranged/tactical) have been changed to give a single bonus to Critical Rating, a new stat. Melee, Ranged and Tactical Critical Ratings all use the new Critical Rating stat as their starting value. Class skills or traits can still increase a specific Critical rating type further.


    • Update 5 (Dec. 2011) introduced 2 new stat consolidations: Physical Mastery is a stat which feeds both Melee Offence and Ranged Offence. Tactical Mastery is a stat which feeds both Tactical Offence and Outgoing Healing. All bonuses which used to give Melee or Ranged offence were changed to give both (Physical Mastery). All bonuses which used to give Tactical offence or Outgoing healing were changed to give both (Tactical Mastery), those found on many settings and other relics, to name one example.


    • All Racial passive traits which used to deduct -8 from a base stat (for example -8 Might for hobbits) now deduct -7 only.
    • The Elf's total immunities to poison and disease are now a flat 1% rather than a rating of 4 per level. (Iluvatar assures me this was not his will, and that He has commissioned a -20 nerf to Turbine devs which Melchor announces will be coming Soon after beta testing. An enthusiast named JRR insisted on testing the beta).
    • The Dwarf's Endurance of Stone skill was changed from +75% Common, Shadow and Fire Mitigation to -50% Incoming Melee, Ranged and Tactical Damage. While this, in theory, covers all possible types of damage, it lets in double the damage that the old skill let through for the types of damage it covered. Clearly a nerf in most cases and perhaps no longer a true life-saving emergency skill.


    • All Passive skills (class enhancements) which you used to buy every odd-numbered level from your trainer (parry, evade, accuracy, etc..) have been removed from the game. To compensate, the base stats now contribute more than they did to parry, evade, etc... (more below). This results in the following changes to a non-equipped (naked, with no traits slotted) level 65 burglar (they depend on class):


    • Block, Evade, Parry ratings decreased by about 1000-1700
    • Wound, Fear, Poison, Disease resistances ratings increased by about 150-200 (Yay, now we're all as immune as Elves!)
    • Common and Tactical Mitigation ratings increased by about 100-200
    • Outgoing healing rating increased by about 0-350
    • Critcal Rating (depending on class) decreased by about 500-700
    • Offence Rating (depending on class) increased by around 0-450
    • Accuracy, which reduces your chance to miss an attack, decreased to 0 (or whatever accuracy your Agility secretly provides). Note that, while Agility will reduce your chance to miss an attack against an on-level or lower opponent, it will not reduce your chance to miss against higher level opponents. You can, however, still kill a mob that is 7 levels higher than you. But not 8 levels, due to excessive misses.

    (Rant time: What is unfortunate is that this is yet another move to make us more dependent on gear bonuses. Don't you miss the base stat bonuses we got on level-up? A bit more morale, might, will, fate, and skill damage? Did anyone ever explain why they stopped giving us those at level 50? I mean, you level up to get better and stronger automatically. That's the reward for levelling up (aside from the pleasure of the process itself). Did they clearly say we'll be getting legendary item improvements instead of character improvements? And that we'll have to destroy our item advancement and start over whereas character stat bonuses would have stayed with us? Levelling feels diminished without those bonuses and fresh new skills. It seems the only purpose of levelling now is getting to the new cap so you can grind for the better gear. It would be interesting to see what base stats we would have had by 75, had those little bonuses continued for the past 25 levels (yes, it'll be 25 whole levels without a single stat improvement!). Then deduct those bonuses we would have gotten in 25 levels from the super-duper armour bonus to see what it's really worth. Or are these the 60 points of base stats being sold in the store now? /Rant off.)

    • Minstrels cannot wear medium armour any more.


    • Champions cannot use Heavy Shields any more (but can still use Light ones). They got Bubbles instead. ("Orion nerfed CB!") Edit: Light Shield use was stealthily disabled after a server restart. It's uncertain whether this is final or not.


    • Runekeepers cannot heal any more. (Just kidding).


    • Captain's buff IDOME (+50 to all stats) is now a toggle. And they can "block" with a 2-handed weapon (as well as parry).


    • Loremaster's Ancient Wisdom (+60 Will) self-buff is now permanent (get it from the trainer). Their cure wounds and disease skill no longer gives the group a Resistance buff.


    • Most Uncommon Armour (green background) has had its armour value increased (apparently by around 20%).


    • Damage and Healing by class will be affected by the following base stats (more below):


    • Minstrel: Will for Healing, Tactical and Melee offence
    • Loremaster: Will for Healing, Tactical and Melee offence
    • Runekeeper: Will for Healing, Tactical and Melee offence
    • Captain: Might for Healing, Melee and Tactical offence
    • Guardian: Might for Melee and Ranged offence, Will for a bit of Healing
    • Champion: Might for Melee and Ranged offence, Will for a bit of Healing
    • Warden: Might for Melee and Ranged offence, Will for a bit of Healing and Tactical offence.
    • Hunter: Agility for Ranged and Melee offence, Will for a bit of Healing
    • Burglar: Agility for Melee and Ranged offence, Will for a bit of Healing
    • --- Modifications with Update 5 (Dec. 2011):
    • Minstrel: Will for Healing, Melee, Ranged and Tactical offence
    • Loremaster: Will for Healing, Melee, Ranged and Tactical offence
    • Runekeeper: Will for Healing, Melee, Ranged and Tactical offence
    • Captain: Might for Healing, Melee, Ranged and Tactical offence
    • Guardian: Might for Melee and Ranged offence, Will for some Healing and Tactical offence
    • Champion: Might for Melee and Ranged offence, Will for some Healing and Tactical offence
    • Warden: Might for Melee and Ranged offence, and for some Healing and Tactical offence
    • Hunter: Agility for Ranged and Melee offence, Will for some Healing and Tactical offence
    • Burglar: Agility for Melee and Ranged offence, Will for some Healing and Tactical offence

    • All base stats and virtues can now be increased through purchases in the in-game store. You can also buy magical scrolls which can summon a relic master, vault-keeper, bard, etc... to keep you company in the wilderness. Tom Bombadil refuses to come and dance for you, for the moment.




    Other trivia


    • A Scroll of Greater Empowerment costs 14,100 shards to make. Or you can buy it from the store (you can also get it using some 6k old skirmish marks, about 840 marks and 65 medallions since Update 5). Now we'll know who the skirmish mark millionaires are. Or just the usual type of millionaires. The new fashionable grind is 12-man skirmishes for Superior 4th marks ("Seals" since the skirmish mark re-hash of Update 5).


    • Loremasters can rez from a distance of 25m now, and don't need the silly shire tobacco any more. Those using the Cure Resistance Duration legacy are kindly asked to replace this deprecated legacy at their own expense (scrolls of empowerment and all), "at their earliest convenience".


    • Burglars and Loremasters can daze any and all creatures now.

    .
    .
    .


    OK, now that we're over the stuff which you probably already knew about (not all, I hope), let's go on to some (more) undocumented changes:



    Stats and How they are Derived

    Code:
    Stat Rating            BRG        CPT        CHM        GRD        HNT        LM         MIN        RK         WRD
    ------------------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------
    - After Update 5 (Dec. 2011):
    Melee Offence         10*A       10*M       10*M       10*M       10*A       10*W       10*W       10*W       10*M
    Ranged Offence        10*A       10*M       10*M       10*M       10*A       10*W       10*W       10*W       10*M
    Tactical Offence       5*W       10*M        5*W        5*W        5*W       10*W       10*W       10*W        5*M
    Outgoing Healing       5*W       10*M        5*W        5*W        5*W       10*W       10*W       10*W        5*M
    - Before Update 5:
    Melee Offence         10*A       10*M       10*M       10*M       10*A       10*W       10*W       10*W       10*M
    Ranged Offence        10*A        1*A       10*M       10*M       10*A        1*A        2*A        1*A       10*M
    Tactical Offence       1*W       10*M        1*W        1*W        1*W       10*W       10*W       10*W        4*W
    Outgoing Healing       5*W       10*M        5*W        5*W        5*W       10*W       10*W       10*W        4*W
    
    
    Morale                 3*V        3*V        3*V        5*V        3*V        3*V        3*V       3*V         5*V 
    ICMR                  1.5*F                        >>
    NCMR                  7.2*V                        >>
    
    Power                  3*W                         >> 
    ICPR                30*SQRT(F)                     >>
    NCPR                  12*W                         >>
    
    Critical Rating     1.75*(A+F)                     >> 
     Melee Critical        CR                          >>
     Ranged Critical       CR                          >>
     Tactical Critical     CR                          >>
    
    Block                  4*M                         >> 
    Parry                2*(M+A)                       >>
    Evade                  4*A                         >>  (same for all classes)
    
    Resistance           2*(V+W)                       >> 
     Wound Resist.         Res.                        >>
     Disease Resist.       Res.                        >>
     Fear Resist.          Res.                        >>
     Poison Resist.        Res.                        >>
    
    Physical Mitigation  2*(M+V) + 0.2*Armour          >> 
     Common Mitigation     PM + 0.8*Armour             >>
     West/AnDwarf/Beler.   PM                          >>
    
    Tactical Mitigation  4*V + 0.2*Armour              >> 
     SLLAFF Mitigation     TM                          >>
    
    Not dependent on Base Stats:  
    
    Critical Defence       n/a                         >> 
    Incoming Healing       n/a                         >>
    Finesse                n/a                         >>
    
    Melee Defence          n/a                         >> 
    Ranged Defence         n/a                         >>
    Tactical Defence       n/a                         >>
    
    Mysterious, secret stats:  
    
    Miss Chance            (A?) 
    Tact. Crit Multiplier  (F?)
    Melee Crit Multiplier  (?)
    Ranged Crit Multiplier (?)
    Tact. DevCrit Mult.    (F?)
    Melee DevCrit Mult.    (?)
    Ranged DevCrit Mult.   (?)
    Key: M=Might, A=Agility, V=Vitality, W=Will, F=Fate, CR=Critical Rating, Res.=Resistance Rating, PM=Physical Mitigation Rating, TM=Tactical Mitigation Rating, SLLAFF=Shadow/Light/Lightning/Acid/Fire/Frost, n/a=not dependent on other stats.



    Conversion of Ratings to %

    • Except for Offence Ratings where big changes were made, all previous conversion formulas still hold but only to the old caps. Percent stats which have had their caps increased now use another formula when going beyond the previous cap (read: more rating per % is required beyond the old cap).
    • Finesse uses the same formula as well, and it seems that it has a cap of 50%.

    The conversion of rating to % after Isengard uses this general formula:

    % = Yo + 1/[1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]




    When Xo=0 and Yo=0, it becomes the old formula:
    % = 1 / [1 + K/(R/L)] or % = R / (R + KL)
    It is of the form: 1 / (1 + K/x)

    Where:

    • R is the Rating to convert
    • L is the level (generally the opponent's level, except for counter-stats like Critical Defence and Finesse, where I would expect it to be the player's level since it is your opponent who's supposed to convert his ratings after your counter-stat reduces them)
    • K is a constant which defines the slope of the curve.
    • Xo is an offset to R/L
    • Yo is an offset in %


    Food for Thought:
    It is possible that the ratio R/L in the formula isn't so simplistic. Indeed, if it were so, it would mean you get an advantage or a penalty based on the mob's level alone, independently of your own level. One other possibility is for the R/L ratio to in fact be: R*L1/(L2*L2), where L1 is your level and L2 is the opponents level. I have not made any tests in that direction.
    Another possibility is that, at least for some stats, the whole % result is multiplied by L1/L2 to take player level into consideration. For example: % = L1/L2 * 1 / [1 + K/(R/L2)]. This would be transparent to us while looking at the stat tooltips since the opponent level stated there is always equal to our own level.


    Important:
    The results you calculate with the formulas I list here are in decimal form. I.e. 15.8% will come out as 0.158. If you want the "percentage" value, multiply the result by 100.


    Last edited by Alad.; Jan 14 2012 at 11:35 AM.
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    385

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    New Mitigation Conversions

    Big changes were made to damage Mitigation (reduction):


    1. There is no longer just one formula for all types of mitigations, but 2 curves: One for Heavy Armour classes, and one for Medium and Light Armour classes.
    2. The heavy armour mitigation curve starts off at the old levels, until it reaches 10%, when it switches to a new curve. The new curve is steeper than the old one, producing higher mitigation % per rating for heavy armour classes.
    3. The Medium and Light armour mitigation curve starts off at the old levels as well, until it reaches 20%, when it switches to a new curve. The new curve is less steep than the old one, producing lower mitigation % per rating for medium and light armour classes.
    4. The mitigation curves are valid for all types of damage mitigations: Physical, Common, Tactical, Fire, Lightning, etc...
    5. Although I haven't seen any statements on new Mitigation caps per Armour type, they have certainly been increased, if not removed. (Some people have reported new caps, listed below).
    6. My comments on these changes:


    • Heavy Armour has more armour value than medium, which has more than light. More armour value equals more mitigation. Putting heavy armour on a separate higher curve gives a double disadvantage to light armour especially, and to medium armour as well. Supposing that they had to raise the curve for heavy armour, why did they have to lower the one for medium and light? This ends up being a triple disadvantage.
    • Armour is some barrier that stops weapons more or less effectively, i.e. physical hits. Tactical hits (i.e. elemental and magical damage) should not be stopped by heavy armour more than leather or cloth. I would even argue to the contrary in some cases such as heat or electricity in the case of metal. So why are the Tactical mitigation curves being changed this way as well? How does the armour value of armour protect you better from being demoralised by fear of the shadow, for example? And since Tactical Mitigation comes primarily from Vitality and Will, does this change not imply that heavy armour classes have an inherent, hidden, and very substantial, advantage to Vitality and Will as well? If they wanted to include in "heavy armour" an inherent magical shield as well as higher armour value, they could have added a Tactical Mitigation% attribute to armour gear, just as they added Critical Defence to shields at some point. It would have made it clearer to everyone, and would have raised the protests this change deserves.
    Here are some graphs that illustrate the differences.



    (download)


    (download)


    (download)


    Reminder:
    All Ratings to % conversions use this general formula:

    % = Yo + 1 / [1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]



    Light and Medium Armour Mitigation

    This is used by Light and Medium armour classes, no matter their level or what armour they're actually wearing, to convert any damage type Mitigation Rating to % (common, fire, shadow, etc...)

    There seems to be a cap of 40% for Light Armour mitigation, and 50% for Medium Armour mitigation.

    Determine your R/L, then use the values of K, Xo and Yo from the following table:

    R/L
    K
    Xo
    Yo
    Result Range
    Formula
    0 - 37.5
    150
    0
    0
    0% - 20%
    Old
    > 37.5
    350
    37.5
    0.20
    > 20%
    New
    If you do not wish to test for R/L and then choose the right formula, the formula to use for L&M Mitigation should be Min(Old formula, New Formula).



    Heavy Armour Mitigation

    This is used by Heavy Armour classes, no matter their level or what armour they're actually wearing, to convert any damage type Mitigation Rating to % (common, lightning, acid, etc...)

    There seems to be a cap of 70% to Heavy armour Mitigations.

    Determine your R/L, then use the values of K, Xo and Yo from the following table:

    R/L
    K
    Xo
    Yo
    Result Range
    Formula
    0 - 16.667
    150
    0
    0
    0% - 10%
    Old
    > 16.667
    150
    16.667
    0.10
    > 10%
    New
    To calculate the % mitigation in one step without first evaluating R/L, use Max(Old formula, New formula).

    An equivalent formula for the new Heavy Mitigation segement (>10%) is: %HMit = 1.125/[1 + 133.333/(R/L)] - 0.025




    New Offence Conversions

    Equally big changes were made to Offence (% increase in damage) formulas.


    1. All offence sources use the same new curve: Melee, Ranged and Tactical offence.
    2. The "curve" is almost linear. But it isn't. It is composed of 5 segments (at least), each transposed such as to continue the curve in a linear fashion. Each segment covers a range of 20%: 0-20%, 20-40%, 40-60%, etc...
    3. The offence caps have been removed.
    4. I have to wonder why they didn't simply make it linear w.r.t. R/L. Perhaps the bumps make it more exciting.


    Here is a graph to illustrate the difference.


    (download)


    Offence

    The formula for offence is the good old rating to % conversion formula, repeated and shifted, with K = 300. It gives 1 error of +/- 0.1 on my data of 153 samples. I have identified five segments but there can be even more. Each segment covers a further climb up the curve of 20% using an R/L range of K/4 (75). Hence, Yo increments by 0.2 and Xo by 75 with each further segment. The 5th and last segment continues the curve beyond 100%.

    Determine your R/L, then use the values of K, Xo and Yo from the following table in the general formula:

    % = Yo + 1 / [1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]

    R/L K Xo Yo Result Range Segment
    0 - 75
    300 0 0 0 - 20% 1
    75 - 150 300 75 0.20 20% - 40% 2
    150 - 225 300 150 0.40 40% - 60% 3
    225 - 300 300 225 0.60 60% - 80% 4
    >300 300 300 0.80 >80% 5
    You can calculate this in one go without evaluating R/L first, like so: Max(Seg1, Seg2, Seg3, Seg4, Seg5).



    A quick and dirty straight line which approximates a large portion of the above bumpy curve (from 0% to 100%) pretty closely is (expect small errors!):

    %Offence = 0.002667*R/L + 0.0074

    This says that to add 1% to your base damage, you need to increase your Offence Rating by L/0.2667 or 3.75*L, which means increasing your Might (or Agility, or Will, depending on your class) by 0.375*L. For level 75, the required increase in rating is therefore around 281 per %, or 28.1 Might/Agility/Will per %. This applies whatever offence rating (up to 100%) you currently have, since the "curve" is linear. Beyond 100% the curve is non-linear and the segment 5 formula should be used.
    (At level 85 you'll need around 31.9 Might/Agility/Will per extra % of Offence below 100%).

    .
    .
    .
    Last edited by Alad.; Aug 09 2012 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Updated formulas and graphs (and download links)
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    385

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.


    New BPE % Chance, Critical Hit % Chance, and Incoming Healing % bonus

    The previous caps for these was 15%. It was raised to 25%. For a rating which results in less than 15%, the old formulas still hold. For ratings which result in more than 15%, a new formula with a lower slope (needs more rating per percent) must be used. Until you reach the 25% cap where increasing the rating will not increase the %.

    Melee, Ranged, Tactical Defence (Mitigation by Source) uses the same conversion formula as BPE%.

    Here is a graph showing the new BPE, Crit and Incoming Healing rating conversion functions:


    (download)


    Reminder:
    The general formula for converting Ratings to % after Isengard is:

    % = Yo + 1/[1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]



    BPE % Chance, Critical Hit % Chance, Melee/Ranged/Tactical Defence, +Incoming Healing % Bonus

    As usual, you should calculate your R/L first (your rating divided by the opponent's level), then look up the values of K, Xo and Yo in the following table:

    R/L
    K
    Xo
    Yo
    Result Range
    Formula
    0 - 70
    396.667
    0
    0
    0% - 15%
    Old
    70 - 158.15
    793.333
    70
    0.15
    15% - 25%
    New
    > 158.15
    ---
    --
    --
    = 25%
    Cap
    *396.667=1190/3; 793.333=2380/3

    To calculate this in one go, use: Min(Old formula, New formula, Cap)

    You can go above the 25% by getting direct % bonuses, i.e. a bonus which does not add rating, but %.

    Critical Defence, the stat which reduces an opponent's chance to critically hit you, gets deducted from the opponent as a rating, before the opponent's Crit rating is converted to a %. The % value displayed in your character panel for Critical Defence is thus exaggerated, as it assumes that *all* of your opponent's crit chances will be negated, and it assumes that your opponent will be of your own level. (It makes sense that your opponent will use your level in the formula when converting his rating to %).

    Mitigation by Source (Melee, Ranged, Tactical Defence) found on some older items uses the same formula. This type of mitigation is used by mobs, and is sadly being removed from player equipment and traits.


    Partial BPE % Chance, Devastate Critical Hit % Chance

    There is a cap of 10%. The conversion rate here has not changed with the expansion.

    R/L
    K
    Xo
    Yo
    Result Range
    Formula
    0 - 147.78
    1330
    0
    0
    0% - 10%
    Old
    > 147.78
    ---
    --
    --
    = 10%
    Cap
    You can go above the 10% by getting direct % bonuses, i.e. a bonus which does not add rating, but %.
    To calculate this in one go, use: Min(Old formula, Cap)

    For a comparison of BPE% and Partial BPE% (or Crit% and DevCrit%) on one graph, see here.

    Critical Defence also gets deducted as a rating from the opponent's rating, to reduce his chances of landing a devastating crit on you.


    (download)



    Partial BPE % Mitigation

    There is no rating to % conversion for Partial BPE Mitigation.

    Partial BPE Mitigation % = Corresponding BPE% chance + 20%


    When you partially block, parry or evade, you reduce (mitigate) the damage partially (not totally as in a full BPE). The % of damage mitigated in such cases is equal to your full Block or Parry or Evade % Chance, plus 20%. For example, if you partially evade a hit, and your Evade % Chance is 12%, you will reduce the damage of that hit by 12+20= 32%. But that's not all. You will also reduce that damage by your normal damage mitigation, depending on the damage type. Assume you're hit by a Fire sword in the above example, and that your Fire Mitigation is 25%. After having reduced the damage by 32% due to the partial Evade, you will then further reduce the result by 25%. If the initial damage were 100, your net damage received would be 100*(1-0.32)*(1-0.25) = 51.0; i.e. a net mitigation of 49.0%.
    Note: Before Isengard, the two mitigations were added together. This is no longer the case.

    There is a cap of 35% to each partial BPE Mitigation (i.e. the game still caps your B/P/E to 15% for the purpose of calculating partial mitigations). This could be a bug, or it could be intentional given that mitigations by damage type seem to have increased. You can go above the 35% by getting direct % bonuses to partial BPE Mitigations (from stances, traits, skills/buffs, relics, etc... depending on your class.)


    (download)




    Resistance % Chance, +Outgoing Healing % Bonus, Finesse % Chance

    There is a cap of 50% on these (was 30%).

    As always, determine your R/L then look up your K, Xo and Yo from the following table and use them in the general formula:
    % = Yo + 1/[1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]

    R/L
    K
    Xo
    Yo
    Result Range
    Formula
    0 - 170
    396.667
    0
    0
    0% - 30%
    Old
    170 - 368.33
    793.333
    170
    0.30
    30% - 50%
    New
    > 368.33
    ---
    --
    --
    = 50%
    Cap
    *396.667=1190/3; 793.333=2380/3

    You can go above the 50% by getting direct % bonuses, i.e. a bonus which does not add rating, but %.
    (I can't think of a way to calculate this in one statement without first evaluating R/L.)

    Finesse Rating gets converted to % before being deducted from the opponent's % BPE. I did not see a clear statement that this is also how Finesse affects opponent Resistance, so it may be deducted as a Rating.

    Of note is that Resistance and Outgoing Healing got a small boost when being converted from rating to %. But it is nowhere near as high as the boost to Offence. For comparison, here is a graph showing the new Outgoing Healing versus the new Offence conversion curves (bear in mind that they used the same dark blue curve segment before the expansion).


    (download)




    That's it!

    I hope some people will post data points for things not mentioned here so I can update and complete this topic.

    If you were interested in this post, then perhaps the subject of Comparing Damage Bonuses reliably will interest you too.

    Thanks for reading!



    Credits:
    I first saw a form of the R/(R+KL) formula posted here by moebius92 and immediately dropped the ones I'd been using. Thanks for that great find moebius!
    Many thanks to all the nice people who contributed data in this thread!
    Last edited by Alad.; Jan 22 2012 at 08:40 PM. Reason: Added Mitigation by Source to the BPE% formula
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  4. #4

    Thumbs up Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Epic post Alad! This is most helpful, thanks for your efforts, and +rep to you.

  5. #5
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Awesome!

    I'm kind of upset Turbine decided to change the curve for different intervals for offence

  6. #6

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Reading this just upgrades my displeasure with the changes, thanks for the info !
    I'm an expert - look at my join date, bro.

  7. #7
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Thanks for the post.

    One question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alad. View Post
    • Mitigation by Source (reducing the incoming damage depending on the type of skill which caused it, irrespective of the type of damage itself), is all but phased out of the game.
    Does this work for mobs too?
    Farewell.

  8. #8
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Excellent post, OP. This will help jump-start the update of my own charts &etc. Thank you!
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  9. #9

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alad. View Post
    [*] L is the level (generally the opponent's level, except for counter-stats like Critical Defence and Finesse, where I would expect it to be the player's level since it is the mob that converts it.)
    This is not correct. L is your level, and not your opponent's level. How your opponent's level figures in is not, as far as I am aware, known, but it is not utilized by using your opponent's level as the level value in the ratings formula.

    Test was using heartseeker crits - with all damage buffs running (burn hot + cool burn and strength stance) and with no stance. Since crits are fixed amounts, you can use a small sample to determine the actual damage bonus being used, via, since...

    no stance damage number (L) = (1 + damage bonus) * base damage (B)
    SS+CB damage number (H) = (1 + damage bonus + 0.6) * B
    (H - L) / (0.6) = B
    L / B = (1 + damage bonus)

    Testing against an on-level 65 wolf confirmed that it successfully recovered my hunter's ranged damage bonus. Testing against a level 65 wolf confirmed that the ratings formula could not be using 66 as the level (even accounting for rounding errors precluded the ratings formula with a level of 66 from being correct).

    Note: I really wish people would stop assuming that L was your opponent's level. The ratings formula was derived from looking at the character panel tooltips, and was always your character's level. Assuming that it magically turns into your opponent's level just because it'd be convenient without doing any testing to back it up is just shoddy work.

  10. #10

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    For Partial BPE % Chance, and Devastate Critical % Chance, K = 1329.718 ~ 1330?
    For everything else (except new Offence and Mitigation), K = 396.643 ~ 1190/3?
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  11. #11
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by moebius92 View Post
    I really wish people would stop assuming that L was your opponent's level. The ratings formula was derived from looking at the character panel tooltips, and was always your character's level. Assuming that it magically turns into your opponent's level just because it'd be convenient without doing any testing to back it up is just shoddy work.
    You're right meobius, it is an assumption which I have held for so long, I can't remember if I tested it. It is my own assumption though, irrespective of whether or how others may have reached that same conclusion. I don't take statements posted here for granted and you don't either, I see.

    The assumption is based on the fact that L is in the denominator. If it were your own level, it would illogically mean that the higher you are, the lower your damage, the lower your avoidance, the lower your resistance, etc... It doesn't make sense. Assuming the L is your opponent's level make a lot more sense. Even the character panel states something in those lines... "...against level 65 enemies..." your % will be x%. Meaning that at your same level, with your same rating, you will have a different % against enemies of a different level. The formula, and logic, indicate that you will have a lower percent against higher level enemies.

    However, if you have tested and come to the conclusion that it's your own level, for all the stats this formula is used in, then I cannot contradict you since I haven't kept any records of whether I've done such tests myself. All I can say then would be the devs have strange logic.

    If you can find good arguments why it would make sense for your effectiveness to intrinsically drop as you advance in levels, irrespective of what level mob you're fighting, I would be interested in hearing them.

    The formula could contain a term which simply gets eliminated when your level is equal to the opponent's, resulting in R/(R+KL) which, as you say, holds for the numbers displayed in the character panel against enemies of your own level. The new formulas I derived here do only that: they predict with good accuracy the numbers you would see in the character panel for different Ratings, against enemies of your own level.

    As to the testing you mention in your post, could there be a typo in what you wrote? Do you mean the second wolf was level 66? I frankly didn't understand what you meant there, nor the proof of it. Your post seems to be missing some words or sentences.

    Are you saying your crits on a level 66 were different (probably smaller?) than on the level 65, but that the difference could not be explained by using 66 instead of 65 for L in the offence formula, and in your specific damage calculations?

    I don't know if this has any impact on your tests, but the little you wrote suggests that you assume the bonus of 0.6 is added to the offence bonus. I have noticed from very recent testing that this is not the case for RK damage bonuses, where it is (1+offence)*(1+bonus) rather than (1+offence+bonus), at least for the RK skill damage bonuses awarded from traits. However, I know that this is not always the case, since for RK healing, the bonus is added to Outgoing Healing%, which I claim is a bug. Bug or not, the fact is that it could well be that Turbine has not standardised how they accumulate bonuses together. Would your test's conclusions change if the bonuses were accumulated as I suggest instead?

    Here's one other recent puzzle I've been seeing on my Burglar's bleeds: The higher the mob's level, the higher the DoT. I'm pretty sure that's something I have never noticed before. What it suggests is that this damage is dependent on the mob's level. And R/(R+KL) wouldn't be able to predict that no matter whose level L is. There is no mention on the bleed skill tooltips either that would make one expect that result.

    To conclude, I can't say for certain whose level the L in the R/L ratio is, apart from the fact that it makes sense for it to be your opponent's level, and the tooltip talks about opponent's level. And I'd like to thank you for posting the R/(R+KL) formula on these forums in the first place. That was most certainly not shoddy work.
    Last edited by Alad.; Oct 05 2011 at 10:04 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by RtrnofdMax View Post
    For Partial BPE % Chance, and Devastate Critical % Chance, K = 1329.718 ~ 1330?
    For everything else (except new Offence and Mitigation), K = 396.643 ~ 1190/3?
    You should try it yourself and use whatever works for you. The numbers I list are those that gave the least errors with the hoard of data that I collected over time, and using several classes and levels. They of course assume the Rating is that which is displayed in the character panel, i.e. the rounded numbers. The numbers you mention may be the ones the devs use (I have no idea where they came from), but they know the precise, unrounded, rating values, while we don't.
    Last edited by Alad.; Oct 04 2011 at 04:42 PM.
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  13. #13

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Understood. It just doesn't seem game-breaking to have whole numbers. I would imagine they would be able to adjust for this.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fin. View Post
    Thanks for the post.

    One question:


    Does this work for mobs too?
    Re: Mitigation by Source (i.e. Melee Defence, Ranged Defence, Tactical Defence)

    Edit: Mobs do seem to have Melee Defence, Ranged Defence and Tactical Defence (just rechecked with my Loremaster's "Knowledge of the Loremaster" skill.) No idea if they're being phased out from their stats as well, or they want those nice mitigations to only be available to mobs.
    Last edited by Alad.; Oct 05 2011 at 12:00 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Added:

    • Comments on the changes to Mitigation, and especially Tactical Mitigation.
    • A reminder that you should multiply the formula's output by 100 to get a "percentage"
    • A linear approximation for the offence conversion formula
    • A Credits section
    • Other small details.
    Last edited by Alad.; Oct 05 2011 at 09:53 PM.
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  16. #16

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starrywisdom View Post
    Reading this just upgrades my displeasure with the changes, thanks for the info !
    I agree.. Turbine made some bad mistakes with what they did to all of us in this "Expansion"..

    Heck, complete re-write!

    oh and Like RAD, sorry Character (A) you can't raid with us because your finesse is too low!

  17. #17

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alad. View Post
    Are you saying your crits on a level 66 were different (probably smaller?) than on the level 65, but that the difference could not be explained by using 66 instead of 65 for L in the offence formula, and in your specific damage calculations?

    I don't know if this has any impact on your tests, but the little you wrote suggests that you assume the bonus of 0.6 is added to the offence bonus. I have noticed from very recent testing that this is not the case for RK damage bonuses, where it is (1+offence)*(1+bonus) rather than (1+offence+bonus), at least for the RK skill damage bonuses awarded from traits. However, I know that this is not always the case, since for RK healing, the bonus is added to Outgoing Healing%, which I claim is a bug. Bug or not, the fact is that it could well be that Turbine has not standardised how they accumulate bonuses together. Would your test's conclusions change if the bonuses were accumulated as I suggest instead?
    Tactical damage is *weird*. It is, as far as I know, the only type of damage that uses a damage formula of (base damage) * (1 + tactical damage bonus) * (1 + sum of every other damage bonus). The rest of the damage formulas seem to directly add onto the typed damage bonus. Although this wasn't a big deal in the case of my test because everything there was a melee or ranged damage bonus.

    What I was doing was measuring my base damage bonus by measuring how much my crits increased when I added a known amount of damage bonus. So, throwing in some actual numbers (and it looks like I've got more complete data for champion using remorseless strikes) - this is pre-RoI, so... 9620 melee offense rating. That gives us 27.2% with a level of 65, and 26.9% with a level of 66. Against a level 65 wolf, in glory (-15%), a crit did 1536, in fervour (+20%) it did 2015, and in no stance, it did 1742. We have a swing of 479 damage over a 35% change in damage bonus - giving us a base damage of 1369 or so. 1742 / 1369 gives us +27.2% which is what the tooltip says we should be getting. In actual practice, due to rounding errors the actual damage bonus could've been anywhere from 26.2% to 28.1% Which unfortunately doesn't make this test good enough to distinguish between 27.2% and 26.9%.

    So, now on to the hunter 8580 ranged offense rating - heartseeker crit against a level 66 wolf does 2064, without any damage bonuses. With burn hot and strength stance (+60%), it does 3054 - this gives us a swing of 1650 over a 60% damage bonus, for a base damage of 1650. 2064 / 1650 gives us +25.1%. Again, rounding errors mean this could actually be anywhere from +24.9% to +25.2%. But, a rating of 8580 with a level of 66 gives a damage bonus of +24.6% - just outside of the range. I was actually hoping to use dev crits, because a larger change in damage means a more accurate measurement of the damage bonus, but ... heart seeker wasn't dev critting enough.

    I don't think it's fully conclusive, but the level 65 damage bonus was within +24.9% and 25.2% (it was actually +25.0%), while the level 66 damage bonus was not inside the range. It could use a lot more testing, quite frankly (I was in a bored while waiting for RoI phase at that time), which I may or may not do sometime in the future, assuming I can think of a good way to test it in RoI.


    Also - are you using curve fitting to figure out the constants? I've always preferred to treat it as a constraint satisfaction problem - i.e., if I have, say, a rating of 402 at level 67, and a percentage of 3.8%, then that percentage can be anywhere from 3.75% to 3.85% depending on rounding, which means the constant is anywhere from 149.8442 to 154. Gather up enough of these intervals, and eventually you've got a very small interval in which the constant can exist - it doesn't get you a single number, necessarily (although I have a tendency to choose the nearest rational on the assumption that the devs are well, choosing rational numbers), but it also guarantees that your constant correctly predicts all of your observed data.


    Anyways, a couple other notes you might be able to use - at level 1, ranged offense (and presumably all offenses) has a cap of 20%. Just make an elven hunter. I find this somewhat suggestive given the 20% intervals you've noticed in the offense rating.


    Second, both intervals of the armor ratings are actually using the formula of the form r / (r + c * l). (Although for the second interval, you subtract off a fixed amount (based on level) from the rating, and add an equivalent amount to the percentage.)

    For heavy armor, the intersection point is 10%, which occurs at a rating of (50 / 3) * level. For some reason the rating is rounded off to the nearest multiple of 5. And then the constant for the second interval is still 150.

    As an example, take a level 67 champion, with 11725 common mitigation rating. 50 / 3 * 67 = 1116 2/3, round to the nearest multiple of 5, gives us 1115. 11725 - 1115 = 10610. 10610 / (10610 + 150 * 67) = 51.4% (rounding off), and add the initial 10% intersection point, and we get 61.4% Which exactly matches my recorded tool tip, so that's nice.

    For medium and light armor, the intersection point is 20%, which occurs at a rating of 37.5 * level, and again, you round off to the nearest multiple of 5, and this time the constant is 350.


    Your heavy armor formula is actually describing this - if you read it as (9 / 8) * rating / (rating + 150 * level / (9 / 8)) - (1 / 8) + 0.10. If you do decent amount of algebra, you can determine that this is equivalent to (rating - (1 / 9) * 150 * level) / (rating - (1 / 9) * 150 * level + 150 * level) + 0.1 - which basically says subtract off (1 / 9) * 150 * level (or (50 / 3) * level) from your ratings, calculate the formula as normal, and then add 10% - which is exactly what you'd do if you had two intervals that met at the 10% point.


    I'm beginning to think they used the multi-interval function thing everywhere.

    Edit: For completeness' sake, I did test the champion's remorseless strike crit against a level 66 wolf, and that gave me a damage range of +26.6% to +27.8% - which told me that my test wasn't accurate enough to distinguish between level 66 and level 65. Hence, the hunter test.

    Further edit: Just checked, because I thought the round to the nearest multiple of 5 thing could have odd effects at lower level, and it doesn't appear to be in play at level 1 (okay, that was capped at 10%), 2, or 10. Also, it appears that you use the function of the armor type that you can potentially wear - captain and guardian were using the heavy armor function, even though they were limited to medium armor.

    Further, further edit: Something just occurred to me - my level 1 captain was capped at 10% physical mitigation, which is the intersection point of the two regimes for the heavy armor function. My level 1 hunter was capped at 20% ranged offense, which is the intersection point of the first two regimes of the offense function. So I checked a level 1 minstrel, and his physical mitigation is capped at 20%, which is the intersection point of the two regimes for the light/medium armor function. (On a weird side note, a level 1 dwarf minstrel has a physical mitigation of 20% as well - apparently the racial +1% isn't kicking in?) And just to be complete about things - level 1 hunter's evade caps at 15%. No way to test if the caps for a level 1 for critical hit, outgoing healing, and resistance cap at the end of the first interval of those functions. Still, I'll be entirely unsurprised if they do.

    Hopefully a last edit: Light/medium armor intersection point is 20%, not 10%.
    Last edited by moebius92; Oct 07 2011 at 03:24 PM.

  18. #18

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Just wanted to say : wow and thank you for the amazing information!

  19. #19
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Been swamped irl and just getting to the RoI changes. Many thanks to Alad. for this thread and moebius92 for his work as well.

    Question/clarification: So now the mechanism of certain mobs being 'weak' to different damage types has been removed? If we assume that mobs/NPC's use the same new combat system that player characters use (I can't imagine it would be different, but one never knows) there is no difference between hitting a mob with the different damage types (i.e. Beleriand/Westernesse/Ancient-dwarf). If this is correct, how sad to lose that bit of 'flavor' and detail. Turbine/WB, please don't dial the dumb-meter all the way to zero!

    Comment: I totally agree with Alad. and his rant regarding the removal of level-related passive bonuses. This is obviously a move to make us more dependent on purchased items (stats virtues potions &etc.). But it is what it is, LOTRO has moved to the F2P business model and it's either pay up or leave the game.

    Comment 02: Regarding the new armour mitigation system comments by Alad., I agree that this does give heavy armour classes a triple arbitrary advantage. This is not intuitive at all, heavy armour should protect better than medium and light against physical damage, no one would argue that point, but tactical damage should ignore all armour.

    Alad. in his comment alluded to the following as well - I used to play a wonderful first-generation MMO named Asheron's Call. By Turbine. In that game, in addition to armour level or rating, different types of armour protected your character against different types of attacks. I can't remeber all the interactions, but for example, Plate armour was great protection against Slashing or Bludgeoning (physical) attacks but not so much vs. Piercing (physical) attacks. And it was weak to Fire or Lightning (tactical) attacks. Chain mail had similar properties but was weaker to Bludgeoning (physical) attacks. Various types of Leather armour (which you would classify as Medium in LOTRO) had better protection vs. Lightning, etc etc. A more detailed combat system along these lines would be welcome and add greatly to the game.

    In science fiction writing, there is a saying, there can be no fiction without the science. The same principle applies to LOTRO to any MMO, or indeed to any game; there must be an intuitive, or common sense reason for how the game mechanics work. Outcomes should meet expectations. This increases both immersion and suspension of disbelief, and is what creates hooks for players. More detail makes the game feel more realistic, and attracts the serious player who tends to choose and stay with a game for a longer period of time. Less detail feels simplistic and attracts the more casual player, who will swing in and out of the game. It's a quantity vs. quality issue. OK now /my rant off.

    Again, thanks to Alad. for this most excellent post, I look forward to plugging these formulas into my Guardian Gear Grinder and having at it.
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  20. #20

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by chazcon3 View Post
    Alad. in his comment alluded to the following as well - I used to play a wonderful first-generation MMO named Asheron's Call. By Turbine. In that game, in addition to armour level or rating, different types of armour protected your character against different types of attacks. I can't remeber all the interactions, but for example, Plate armour was great protection against Slashing or Bludgeoning (physical) attacks but not so much vs. Piercing (physical) attacks. And it was weak to Fire or Lightning (tactical) attacks. Chain mail had similar properties but was weaker to Bludgeoning (physical) attacks. Various types of Leather armour (which you would classify as Medium in LOTRO) had better protection vs. Lightning, etc etc. A more detailed combat system along these lines would be welcome and add greatly to the game.
    The system you've described sounds like it's dependent on the armor makers being too dumb to incorporate leather into plate armor. Or utilizing some sort of non-conductive under layer. Or a non-conductive outer coating.

  21. #21

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    I'm looking for some clarification on incoming damage types since I'm trying to decide between several virtues for my characters...

    Now, since mobs do not have access to special racial damage types, should it not mean that all incoming physical damage we will ever face is of the common type? As melee/ranged/tactical (by source-damage) is phased out, it means an incoming melee or ranged attack with shadow or fire would go against tactical instead?

    This would mean when considering physical mitigation, virtue values of armor and physical mitigation are on equal footing, because they only ever need to work against common damage. Armor is only 20% effective against non-common sources, but there is no physical, non-common source in game. Not even PvMP creeps have beleriand / westernesse / ancient dwarf weapons.

    And ultimately, when choosing between physical and armor, if values are equal, armor will trump physical mitigation because it will additionally offer 20% of its value to tactical mitigation.

    Am I on the right path here?

  22. #22
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by moebius92 View Post
    The system you've described sounds like it's dependent on the armor makers being too dumb to incorporate leather into plate armor. Or utilizing some sort of non-conductive under layer. Or a non-conductive outer coating.
    Moe, everyone is so gracious to you for your hard numbers work, but you are so harsh on the very people who appreciate you. Perhaps some self-reflection time would be a good thing to mix into your schedule?

    More to the point, Middle-earth armourers do not have undergraduate degrees in ceramic-ferrous coatings or electromagnetic conductivity. These are simple medieval craftsmen. Refer back to my rant on common sense.
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  23. #23
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    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Hi!

    I have a specific question concerning Mitigation and Resistances with the various damage types. I will use an example:

    I have a bow that does 250 Beleriand damage. Now I face an Ancient Evil (susceptible to Beleriand damage type).

    That Ancient Evil foe now uses his Common Mitigation to reduce my bow's damage as Beleriand is still considered Common, right?

    Now, I put Hunter's Fire Oil on that same bow and use it again against that Ancient Evil. To my best understanding that foe now should use its Tactical Mitigation as Fire is not a Common but Tactical damage type, right?

    And what becomes of the Beleriand damage type and the foe's vulnerability against it once the bow is prepared with Fire Oil? Does that Ancient Evil effectively mitigate two types of damage differently but at the same time?

    I am a little bit confused. Maybe you could help me out there.
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  24. #24

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    When you use your Beleriand bow, the mob checks against Physical mitigation, as racial damage is physical, non-common damage. I believe mobs do not have separate armour values, only mitigations, so the rule that armour is only 20% effective on non-common damage is moot here.

    Fire is Tactical damage instead of Physical, so if you apply fire- or light-oil, the mob checks against Tactical mitigation.

    As far as I get it the summary is:

    Physical: Common, non-commons: Ancient Dwarf, Beleriand, Westernesse
    Tactical: Fire, Frost, Lightning, Light.

    Note that since there are damage types for players only and mobs only, the mitigation lists for us and them (including PvMP creeps) are different. Ie, shadow.

    edit - no wait, of course mobs have armour values, since we have skills to reduce that. Unless it simply works as a negative mitigation rating modifier.
    Last edited by Zetsubousensei; Oct 10 2011 at 10:09 AM.

  25. #25

    Re: Combat stat changes on Isengard release. Mitigation and Offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maethred View Post
    Hi!

    I have a specific question concerning Mitigation and Resistances with the various damage types. I will use an example:

    I have a bow that does 250 Beleriand damage. Now I face an Ancient Evil (susceptible to Beleriand damage type).

    That Ancient Evil foe now uses his Common Mitigation to reduce my bow's damage as Beleriand is still considered Common, right?

    Now, I put Hunter's Fire Oil on that same bow and use it again against that Ancient Evil. To my best understanding that foe now should use its Tactical Mitigation as Fire is not a Common but Tactical damage type, right?

    And what becomes of the Beleriand damage type and the foe's vulnerability against it once the bow is prepared with Fire Oil? Does that Ancient Evil effectively mitigate two types of damage differently but at the same time?

    I am a little bit confused. Maybe you could help me out there.

    I'll try to clarify it for you. Anyone correct me if I get some of this wrong.

    1 - The effectiveness of common damage types (Beleriand, Westernesse, etc.) is no longer clear in the new post-ROI combat scheme.

    The only possibility I can come up with is that Common Damage goes against the Common Damage Mitigation (which is usually the highest Mitigation a mob can have) and Beleriand/Westernesse etc. go against the Physical Mitigation (which is usually the second highest mitigation mobs have).

    One would hope that the specific bonuses vs certain mobs are still in effect, but with the changes surrounding common damage/tactical damage mitigations trumping all the previous damage types, I honestly don't think there is any added bonus for using Beleriand damage vs spiders over say Ancient-Dwarf damage.


    2 - Adding Fire Oil/Light Oil to your bow transfers your attack skills (not auto-attacks) into Fire or Oil damage. With the new Phys/Tac Mitigations in place, it means your bow is now going against a mob's tactical mitigation. IE, you're doing a lot more damage, since most mobs have lower Tac Mit than PhysMitt

 

 
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