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  1. #26
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    Sep 2010
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    531

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    looks like i picked the wrong time to roll a cook/farmer.

  2. #27
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    585

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    I simply adore cooking, but farming (for me) has always been that unpleasant-but-necessary-evil one must undergo in order to get to the good stuff. Like getting vaccinated before taking a tropical vacation.

    Only now, the vaccination takes approximately 20 minutes and must be repeated every day.

    Before RoI, I farmed at most one or two days a month. Maybe on a weekend when I was busy doing things at home. I'd farm several fields then just go afk at the workbench. A few minutes later I'd come back and my bags would be full to bursting with lovely produce, ready to cook.

    Since RoI, I've needed to set aside time EVERY DAY to farm and process barley, just in order to make my repasts. I've tried to find enough time to get a good "stockpile", but with my limited playtime (and the sheer volume of the stuff we need to use in RoI cooking), I can't seem to get ahead. So every day, before I can cook my repasts, I have to head back out to the field. It is incredibly annoying and let's face, dull.

    I make the hearty fields, and still average only 6-7 crops per field (tested across 5 evenings where 20 hearty fields each night produced 120-135 crops). This means it takes ~20 seconds to get 6 unprocessed barley crops. And more workbench time and cooking time to turn that finally into...3 cups of barley flour. This simply cannot be what Turbine intended...can it?

    Like another poster above pointed out, the "crit" soil is pretty much a scam. It takes 20 seconds to process the soil in order to use it. Essentially the same amount of time it would take to plant another field entirely. Using it does NOT generate double field results (anything less means you are losing time, not saving it). Using the soil, I got about 30% more produce from a field. So processing and using the soil actually increases the time sink of farming.

    You can also use the soil at the workbench to try to get a crit result, but that also is a bad idea. Each soil raises your crit chance to 40% for one attempt only, and upon successful crit you get 5 extra crops. This means, on average, you will have spent 20 seconds (processing the soil) to get 2 extra crops (40% x 5). Again, worse results than you would get if you had spent those 20 seconds just planting a new field.

    TL;DR? Save your soil for wildflowers or dump it on the AH. And Turbine, please unbreak farming!
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  3. #28
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    yeah i do not like this 1:1 ratio.
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  4. #29

    Unhappy Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    I sincerely agree with the 1:1 ratio problem. Take this example:

    Stack of Supreme Balls of Dough (2 Cups Winter Barley Flour) (Old System)
    100 Items * 2 Cups Flour * 2 Bundles Barley = 400 Bundles Barley
    400 Bundles Barley / 4 Bundles/Crop = 100 Crops

    Stack of Westfold Black Barley Bread (2 Cups Black Barley Flour) (New System)
    100 Items * 2 Cups Flour * 2 Bundles Barley = 400 Bundles Barley (Equal to above)
    400 Bundles Barley / 1 Bundle/Crop = 400 Crops (400% Above)

    Total Predicted Cost:
    Ball of Dough:
    20c Seed + 2 * 24c Fertilizer/Water + 2s 40c Crit Item (Uncertain Pricing, will have to check) = 3s 8c/Field
    1 Field = 5-10 Crops; 100 Crops/5-10 Crops = 10-20 Fields
    10-20 Fields * 3s8c = 30s80c - 61s60c

    Black Barley Bread:
    12s Hearty Seed + 48c (Again Uncertain Pricing) Barrel of Water + (No Crit Item!) = 12s48c/Field (About 400% Above)
    1 Field = 5-10 Crops; 400 Crops/5-10 Crops = 40-80 Fields
    40-80 Fields * 12s48c/Field = 499s20c-998s40c (About 1600% Above)

    Effects:
    Supreme Trail Food: +30-46 (Stat)
    Westfold Trail Food: +42-60 (Stat)
    Total Difference: 30-40% Better

    I think spending 16x more for a 30-40% improvement on stats is a little crazy, no?

    So not only are they making us farm more, they have greatly excaberated the cost to farm a field. This means that now farming enough for our trail food or any other general purpose item costs drastically more to produce, not to mention time at the workbench.
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  5. #30
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    I love people for doing the maths. <3
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  6. #31

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Llandor View Post
    ...(some good examples showing how much our productivity has been reduced)...

    So not only are they making us farm more, they have greatly excaberated the cost to farm a field. This means that now farming enough for our trail food or any other general purpose item costs drastically more to produce, not to mention time at the workbench.
    Thanks for doing the math. I'd been intending to do something like this myself. Another interesting thing to consider: Our overall crop yield is down as well.

    Let's say you need to make the 100 dough balls from your example above. You need to farm 400 bundles of winter barley to do this. But how many fields do you plant? The output is different every time. There's no direct calculation to tell you how many fields to plant.

    Well, if you do a lot of farming and tend to enjoy crunching numbers you may start taking averages of your crop to field production. For me the magic number was 5. Which is to say, if I needed 400 winter barley crops I'd divide that by 5 and subsequently plant 80 fields. This typically worked out pretty well for me. That average held true over all 6 tiers, for me at least. 100 crops was roughly equal to 20 well-tended fields. NOTE: I'm talking about well-tended fields produced with a vendor-bought crit item. (yeah, hold on to that thought)

    Now, I haven't produced nearly as many westfold crops as I have the other 6 tiers. I have, however, taken detailed notes over the course of 300 black barley field runs. I understand this isn't enough to establish an "accurate" estimate but it's enough to get us in the ball park till I refine it further with more runs. But, the average output for westfold black barley fields appears to be right at 3.5 crops per field. So, it seems the base production rate has been reduced by about 30%.

    In all fairness I have to point out that I'm comparing well-tended T6 fields with normal T7 fields. You may think this comparison unfair. So, let me frame it a differently. I'm comparing the best fields I can make from both tiers using reasonably priced components from the vendor. For all the previous tiers you could buy the farming crit items from the vendor for a reasonable price. That option isn't available with westfold farming. So, I'm comparing what you can get from the vendor for a reasonable price. Besides, I haven't gotten more than a handful of the pre-crit items (you have to process crit items now?!?) so I'm unable to establish any averages in that area.

    Which leads me to Hearty westfold seeds...

    Westfold Crop Seed: 2s 40c
    Hearty Westfold Crop Seed: 12s

    Hearty seeds cost 500% more than their normal counterparts. Do they produce 500% more crops per field? The short answer is: No, they don't. Again, in all fairness, I have to say that I only ran a handful of Hearty black barley fields, about 20 of them. That's not enough to get a fair average, but it was enough for me to see that they weren't producing 5 times the number of crops of the regular fields (they weren't even producing double the regular fields).

    But, for me, the Hearty seeds boil down to one thing. If you think I'm going to pay 12 silver for ONE seed you're ... <ahem> ... sadly mistaken. So, when they said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise of Isengard: Developer Diary: “Crafting in the Westfold”
    For Farmers, a lot of time is spent in fields and at the workbench so we’ve added new ways to increase harvest yields and improve production efficiency.
    I can only assume they're referring to the use of Hearty seeds coupled with the 5-at-a-time crop production recipes. What they didn't mention is that this boost in production comes at no small in-game gold cost. Yes, you boosted our production if we're willing to pay 500% more for it. If we're not willing to pay the extra 500% we'll find that the status quo has been lowered and it now takes even longer to produce the same amount by standard means. ...and this is all before the 1:1 item to crop ratio is even factored in!

    It seems like it's always this way with Turbine. There's always a catch. They brag about how they reworked some system to make it better for us, and then we find out that it's not better at all - in fact it's worse. I see stuff like this in dev diaries and just cringe. Waiting for the other shoe to drop... ...seems like it always lands on us.

  7. #32
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post
    I can only assume they're referring to the use of Hearty seeds coupled with the 5-at-a-time crop production recipes. What they didn't mention is that this boost in production comes at no small in-game gold cost. Yes, you boosted our production if we're willing to pay 500% more for it. If we're not willing to pay the extra 500% we'll find that the status quo has been lowered and it now takes even longer to produce the same amount by standard means. ...and this is all before the 1:1 item to crop ratio is even factored in!

    It seems like it's always this way with Turbine. There's always a catch. They brag about how they reworked some system to make it better for us, and then we find out that it's not better at all - in fact it's worse. I see stuff like this in dev diaries and just cringe. Waiting for the other shoe to drop... ...seems like it always lands on us.
    Emphasis mine.

    I appreciate that the focus of your post here is about the cost of farming, but I did want to write to clarify that in NO WAY has our farming efficiency been improved in RoI. There's no "catch," it's just a plain false statement by Turbine.

    Farming time has been drastically increased. Period. No matter HOW MUCH gold you are willing to spend on special seeds, soil, etc, you will still be spending about 300% more time farming in RoI to get the same yield of crops you were accustomed to.

    AND (this is the major sticking point for most people, I think) the increase in time is "in the field" time. Our workbench time (time you could just pop out afk anyway) was shortened by a whopping 25%. Now we can produce 5 barley every 10 seconds at the workbench, instead of 4! Yippee! But our "in the field" time (time you have to sit staring numbly, twiddling your fingers and watching your character, which is VERY BORING) was increased by about 400%.

    The single fastest way to get crops is by farming regular (non-crit) hearty fields. I explained why in my post above, but the short version is that the crit soil takes too long to process and returns far too little "extra" crops. It's faster to just plant another hearty field. And while these hearty fields might produce more crops than regular RoI fields (I get 6.5 crops per field, tested across 5 sessions of 20 fields each, where each yeild was 120-135 crops), RoI crops still result in 4 TIMES fewer produce than previous tiers. In other words, we have to plant ~4 times as many fields as before to get approximately the same results.

    You say you were getting 5 crops per field before RoI. What you've forgotten from your equation is that those 5 crops could be turned into 20 produce at the workbench, due to the 4:1 ratio we were getting before. So you didn't need to plant 80 fields to get 400 produce. You needed to plant 20 fields.

    20 fields x 5 crops per field = 100 crops x 4 (old 4:1 workbench ratio) = 400 produce.

    Now in RoI, to get 400 produce, you need to plant either 114 regular fields (using your 3.5 results), or 62 hearty fields (using my 6.5 results).

    So somewhere between 310% and 570% as much planting as before, depending on how much of a hurry you are in, and how much gold you want to part with.

    It's a giant slap in the face to the good farmers of Middle-Earth, many of whom were putting faith in Turbine's promise to "increase harvest yields" and "improve production efficiency." If this was just a "bug" or mistake on Turbine's part ("Oops, somebody fell asleep at the wheel, we meant that to be the same old 4:1 ratio!") then I can't understand why we haven't received an apology and a hotfix by now. If it was actually intentionally misleading, then my opinion of this company just took a very sharp fall.
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  8. #33

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    You say you were getting 5 crops per field before RoI. What you've forgotten from your equation is that those 5 crops could be turned into 20 produce at the workbench, due to the 4:1 ratio we were getting before. So you didn't need to plant 80 fields to get 400 produce. You needed to plant 20 fields.
    First of all let me say that I agree with you completely. You'll get no argument from me regarding anything you've said regarding the "new and improved" state of farming.

    Also, you're right, I blew the math. I'd only need 20 fields in the example I gave. Point taken. However, I didn't blow the multiplier. It still dropped by 30% from 5 to 3.5 (in the experiments I conducted).

    I was just focusing on the decreased returns from planted fields. I fully realize how much of an impact going from 1:4 to 1:1 is and I don't like it any more than anyone else. It represents a great reduction in our productivity. My point was that our productivity has been reduced even before you get to that step in the equation. In other words, our productivity was reduced in several ways. The switch from 1:4 to 1:1 is only one of them.

    Also, I appreciate you running the numbers for the Hearty fields. I somehow missed that information in your post. Regardless, the 1:1 switch, as you say, negates any improvement Hearty fields may have offered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    It's a giant slap in the face to the good farmers of Middle-Earth, many of whom were putting faith in Turbine's promise to "increase harvest yields" and "improve production efficiency." If this was just a "bug" or mistake on Turbine's part ("Oops, somebody fell asleep at the wheel, we meant that to be the same old 4:1 ratio!") then I can't understand why we haven't received an apology and a hotfix by now. If it was actually intentionally misleading, then my opinion of this company just took a very sharp fall.
    I'm right there with ya. There's an old saying that I think is appropriate here, but I doubt I can say it without getting in trouble. But, it has to do with something unpleasant happening to my leg or foot while being told "it's just raining".

  9. #34
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    Sep 2010
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    585

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    And I absolutely agree with your points. Farmers "on a budget" will be hit even harder. I've been using the hearty fields exclusively, regardless of the cost, and the time increase is driving me crazy. My play time (the little bit I get every night) has been effectively cut in half, because I have to spend so much time farming, just to keep up with my repasts and making food for myself. All the while, I realize other people have it worse than I do!

    I'm reminded of those stores that advertise "We're having a sale! 25% off!" They neglect to mention that they jacked the prices up 400% the night before the sale. So those $120 pair of shoes that you can now get "on sale" for $90? They were $30 last week. Sale or no sale, you're still spending 3x as much if you buy today.

    RoI is exactly like that. We can process crops 25% faster at the workbench, but each crop is worth 1/4 of what it used to be worth. The net effect is that everything takes 3x as long.

    Or, put another way, it's as if Turbine advertised that they were "increasing your dps by 25%!" while neglecting to mention that average mob morale was increased from 4,000 to 16,000. Net effect? It's going to take you 3x as long to kill anything, good luck with that.

    Bah.
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  10. #35
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    My play time (the little bit I get every night) has been effectively cut in half, because I have to spend so much time farming, just to keep up with my repasts and making food for myself. All the while, I realize other people have it worse than I do!
    Cooking for raiding kins.

    The bright side of f2p is that I'm strongly considering a second account to run on the kid's computer processing farm ####.
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  11. #36
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    Jun 2011
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Either the 1:1 is a coding error, or we're not supposed to farm any more and cooks are supposed to buy ingredients packs from the store.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    195

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Like a poster above, I tend to cook to support my raiding kin. I rarely make power/morale food in batches of less than a thousand. Ingredient packs aren't really an option.

  13. #38
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Everyone needs to /bug this in-game. If you think you'll forget, then do it now from here in the forums. Obviously the devs are not reading this forum, or one of them would have chimed in by now, so let's make SURE they're aware of the problem, because it's almost certain, given the RoI Crafting Dev Diary, that this is not what was intended.

    If you don't know how to report a bug, here's the link:

    http://forums.lotro.com/new_bug.php?

  14. #39
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Interesting.

    This only seems to affect the new tier - not sure if that indicates it is intended or simply buggy as expected. I haven't done any Westfold farming yet (I have 3 farmers but only 1 is 65), but what farming I did do returned the normal four items from one crop (carrots and tea leaves). Now I'll have to watch and make sure others seem normal as well.
    [center][color=teal]Wingwoz (on hunters in LOTRO), "I prefer to think of them more like Elvis or James Dean. Terminally self indulgent but their presence in a party, nay, the very fact that they ever existed, makes the world a cooler place."[/color]
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  15. #40
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxiana View Post
    Everyone needs to /bug this in-game. If you think you'll forget, then do it now from here in the forums. Obviously the devs are not reading this forum, or one of them would have chimed in by now, so let's make SURE they're aware of the problem, because it's almost certain, given the RoI Crafting Dev Diary, that this is not what was intended.

    If you don't know how to report a bug, here's the link:

    http://forums.lotro.com/new_bug.php?
    Bug report submitted. I'll do it again and again if I need to!
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  16. #41

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    [...] I make the hearty fields, and still average only 6-7 crops per field [...]
    I just wanted to confirm your numbers. I ran 200 samples of the Hearty Black Barley fields over the weekend and my average came out pretty darned close to 6.5 crops / field. 2 runs of 100 fields at 6.66 & 6.56 avg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxiana View Post
    Everyone needs to /bug this in-game. If you think you'll forget, then do it now from here in the forums. Obviously the devs are not reading this forum, or one of them would have chimed in by now, so let's make SURE they're aware of the problem, because it's almost certain, given the RoI Crafting Dev Diary, that this is not what was intended.

    If you don't know how to report a bug, here's the link:

    http://forums.lotro.com/new_bug.php?
    I too cannot believe this is how the system was intended to work. And, since we haven't heard a peep out of the Developers or Moderators on this issue, I'm going to go ahead and bug it per your suggestion.

    If they simply return us to the previous 1:4 output ratio then most everything in the Crafting Developer Diary (strictly regarding farming) becomes true.* Left at 1:1 the information about farming in the Crafting Developer Diary is patently false and easily disproved. QED.

    *providing the player is willing to accept the staggering increase in component prices from t6 to t7 (between 1100% and 5900% for the Hearty seeds)**

    **personally, I find the new prices exorbitant, ridiculous and prohibitively high.

  17. #42
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    You make a compelling argument.

    If we were returned to the previous 4:1 ratio, farmers would be very happy, and all of the dev diary claims would be absolutely true. Even farmers making the regular, non-hearty, non-crit fields would find their time shortened, due to the new "bulk" processing.

    Previously, we were getting about 5 crops per field (I'm going to take your word for this, I didn't test it). So to get 400 produce, you had to plant 20 fields, then "process" 100 crops at the workbench, individually (100 processes). Yes, you could go afk for that part, but it really did take a very long time.

    Old system for 400 barley yield:
    Fields: 20
    Workbench processes: 100

    Under the current system, you need to plant about 114 regular, non-hearty, non-crit fields, then "process" 400 crops at the workbench in batches of 5 (80 processes). I think it's obvious to everyone that saving 20 workbench processes doesn't even begin to make up for needing to plant almost 6 times as many fields.

    Current RoI system for 400 barley yield (non-hearty fields):
    Fields: 114
    Workbench processes: 80

    Current RoI system for 400 barley yield (hearty fields):
    Fields: 62
    Workbench processes: 80

    However, if we got the 1:4 ratio back, you would only need to plant 29 fields, then furthermore you would need only 20 (yes, 20) bulk processes at the workbench. It means planting 9 more fields than before, but saving 80 processes at the workbench. Even considering that planting/harvesting fields takes ~20 seconds and a workbench process is about half of that, you come out ahead there.

    1:4 RoI system for 400 barley yield (non-hearty fields):
    Fields: 29
    Workbench processes: 20

    And for the person willing to pay the much higher prices for hearty fields, the time saved is even more (as it should be).

    1:4 RoI system for 400 barley yield (hearty fields):
    Fields: 16
    Workbench processes: 20

    When looking at the above, it does seem clear that when Turbine promised us improved efficiency, they really did intend to keep the 1:4 ratio. Otherwise, their dev diary does not make sense. I keep hoping we will be proved correct. Bug report this, please!
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  18. #43

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    You make a compelling argument.
    Thanks, I just wanted to take the time to add a couple details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    Previously, we were getting about 5 crops per field (I'm going to take your word for this, I didn't test it).
    And, for the record, neither did I. The 5 number is an anecdotal number. Garnered from years of estimating crop yields. I've been using 5 in my crop predictions and they come out pretty closely.

    However, since they only changed Tier 7 and have left the previous tiers alone (as far as we know) I will run some numbers tonight (or whenever I have a chance - ALCS game 2 tonight) in hopes of confirming my estimate. I should have done this before now - just never really needed to. I stand by my 5 crops / field number but will honestly report anything my "research" turns up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    [...] it does seem clear that when Turbine promised us improved efficiency, they really did intend to keep the 1:4 ratio. Otherwise, their dev diary does not make sense.
    Agree entirely. To be honest when I first started writing that post this morning I was thinking that the 1:1 was working exactly as Turbine intended it to. I was going to post something that said "It stinks, but it's probably on purpose." Then it occurred to me that changing that one detail (from 1:1 to 1:4) suddenly makes everything in the Crafting Developer Diary true (in regards to Farming)! I kinda convinced myself that this must be a bug.

    I have one last nit-pick for you - not with your post, with Turbine's new and improved version of Farming.

    We have a new bulk recipe - process five crops at once. So that's five times better than the regular one-at-a-time recipe, right? Well, it would be if both processes take exactly the same length of time to perform. So, do they? Well, I got a stopwatch out and timed ten iterations of each process, divided overall time elapsed by ten and got...

    Time to process 1 crop with the one-at-a-time recipe: 7 seconds
    Time to process 5 crops with the five-at-a-time recipe: 10 seconds

    Well that's not much different. So, basically, it would take you 35 seconds to process 5 crops using the one-at-a-time recipe whereas it would take only 10 seconds using the five-at-a-time recipe. So no, the new recipe isn't 5 times better, it's 3.5 times better.

    I know it's a minor quibble. But I felt it was important to establish numbers on these recipes in case the response to the 1:1 ratio is that we have the new five-at-a-time recipe to compensate for it - which, it doesn't. (as you've already demonstrated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    Bug report this, please!
    Count on it.
    Last edited by TheREALify; Oct 10 2011 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Clarity

  19. #44
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    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post
    Thanks, I just wanted to take the time to add a couple details.



    And, for the record, neither did I. The 5 number is an anecdotal number. Garnered from years of estimating crop yields. I've been using 5 in my crop predictions and they come out pretty closely.

    However, since they only changed Tier 7 and have left the previous tiers alone (as far as we know) I will run some numbers tonight (or whenever I have a chance - ALCS game 2 tonight) in hopes of confirming my estimate. I should have done this before now - just never really needed to. I stand by my 5 crops / field number but will honestly report anything my "research" turns up.

    While you are running numbers anyway, do you mind timing the previous tiers as well?

    In my head, I've been estimating 17 seconds to farm a field (assuming the best farming tools), 3 seconds to harvest - 20 seconds in all for each field. And 10 seconds to process each crop (or batch of five) at the workbench.
    It would be very useful to know the exact numbers.

    Specifically, you noted it was 7 seconds to process 1 crop in tier 7 when you do it individually.
    Did Turbine speed that one up as a bonus to us, and are the previous 1:4 tiers all 10 seconds each?
    Or was 7 seconds the "standard" workbench time, and did Turbine actually increase the time of the "bulk" process in RoI?
    Last edited by Evebel; Oct 10 2011 at 04:00 PM.
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  20. #45

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    While you are running numbers anyway, do you mind timing the previous tiers as well?
    Nope, not at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    Specifically, you noted it was 7 seconds to process 1 crop in tier 7 when you do it individually.
    Did Turbine speed that one up as a bonus to us, and are the previous 1:4 tiers all 10 seconds each?
    Or was 7 seconds the "standard" workbench time, and did Turbine actually increase the time of the "bulk" process in RoI?
    Actually, I thought processing crops at the workbench used to take 6 seconds across the board. But again, I have nothing but anecdotal data to back that up. I'll break out the stop watch tonight and see what we come up with.

    NOTE: not going to promise any results right away - as noted it's ALCS game two tonight. And I will be watchin'! Of course, sports is somewhat conducive to farming...

    1. <click> plant field - watch game
    2. <click> harvest field - watch game
    3. go to step 1 - watch game

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    7

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    So I'm getting about 6.4-6.5 crops per hearty field (333 crops from 51 hearty fields and 1 normal field)
    I'm also getting a ~40% crit rate on herbs (21 herbs) and ~20% on soil (11 soils). All fields "normal" tended. Still leveling up my farmer.

    If herbs sell on AH for 2x their vendorable price (10.4s each) you make up for any added cost of hearty seed from 30% extra yield and the herbs together. Considering that T7 ingredients will be costly b/c so much time is spent farming them, I imagine the herbs will go for substantially more than 2x.

    Which brings me to my major question for Turbine: who in their right mind would plant a normal field?

  22. #47

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    It's time for me to issue some retractions, make some clarifications and eat a little crow.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post
    For me the magic number was 5.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post
    And, for the record, neither did I [confirm my estimate with research]. The 5 number is an anecdotal number. Garnered from years of estimating crop yields. I've been using 5 in my crop predictions and they come out pretty closely.

    However, since they only changed Tier 7 and have left the previous tiers alone (as far as we know) I will run some numbers tonight [...] in hopes of confirming my estimate. I should have done this before now - just never really needed to. I stand by my 5 crops / field number but will honestly report anything my "research" turns up.
    Strike one! I went ahead and tried to establish this number. I only got through 2 runs of 100 Well-tended Mint Fields (Tier 6). I harvested 609 Fair Black Barley Crops the first time and 624 the second. Add them together, divide by 200 and you get an average of 6.165. After 200 samples it looks like my estimate was wrong. It appears the average crop per field yield is closer to 6. More samples are needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post
    Actually, I thought processing crops at the workbench used to take 6 seconds across the board.
    Strike two! Wasn't even close (I think I was thinking of something else).

    In any event, I was able to take samples from every tier of farming and time the different processes: Planting, Harvesting and Processing (at the workbench). The results are pretty uniform. Both Planting and Harvesting are the same across all 7 Tiers of Farming. It takes 20 seconds to Plant a field and it takes 7 seconds to Harvest a field. The Harvesting time can be reduced to 4 seconds depending on the tools used.

    Processing is where the difference lies but only because there are two methods (one-at-a-time and five-at-a time) to process crops at Tier 7. It takes 10 seconds (not 6) to process 1 crop at the workbench for Tiers 1 - 6 & Tier 7 five-at-a-time version! So, if you use the five-at-a-time recipe it does, in fact, take exactly the same length of time that all other tiers take to process just 1 crop! The only exception to this is Tier 7 - one-at-a-time which only takes 7 seconds to process. To summarize:

    Tiers 1-7 Planting: 20 Seconds
    Tiers 1-7 Harvesting: 7 Seconds (can be reduced to 4 Seconds)
    Tiers 1-6 & Tier 7 (5x) Processing: 10 Seconds
    Tier 7 (1x) Processing: 7 Seconds

    So, to answer your question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    Specifically, you noted it was 7 seconds to process 1 crop in tier 7 when you do it individually.
    Did Turbine speed that one up as a bonus to us, and are the previous 1:4 tiers all 10 seconds each?
    Or was 7 seconds the "standard" workbench time, and did Turbine actually increase the time of the "bulk" process in RoI?
    Looks like the former and not the latter - Turbine really did speed that one up as a bonus to us. And the five-at-a-time workbench recipes are five times better than processing in the previous 6 tiers.

    Still though, no matter how much time might be saved with the five-at-a-time recipe it does nothing to negate the four fold increase in time spent planting and harvesting in the field.

    I still believe this must be a bug and the correct conversion rate is supposed to be 1:4 at the workbench. If that were the case then the words in the Crafting Developer Diary ring true and Farming is suddenly a much happier place to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by valdoria2 View Post
    So I'm getting about 6.4-6.5 crops per hearty field (333 crops from 51 hearty fields and 1 normal field)
    I'm also getting a ~40% crit rate on herbs (21 herbs) and ~20% on soil (11 soils). All fields "normal" tended. Still leveling up my farmer.

    If herbs sell on AH for 2x their vendorable price (10.4s each) you make up for any added cost of hearty seed from 30% extra yield and the herbs together. Considering that T7 ingredients will be costly b/c so much time is spent farming them, I imagine the herbs will go for substantially more than 2x.

    Which brings me to my major question for Turbine: who in their right mind would plant a normal field?
    That's rather a disparaging question, isn't it? Anyone who disagrees with your opinion isn't in their right mind? That doesn't seem fair.

    I make normal fields all the time and I'm in my right mind. I have no intention of selling the soil and herbs. Those will be stockpiled and used in furtherance of my own crafting. Besides, I'd be surprised if the market supports those prices for long. There's not much of a market for any of the other tiers of farming crit items that I'm aware of. But then, I've never bought cooking crit items from the Auction Hall myself. I figured most crafters just make that sort of stuff for themselves if they want it. Maybe that's just me.

    Finally, I just don't like the 5900% price increase in seeds. It seems unnecessarily exorbitant to me. Just the seeds alone to produce 100 fields went from 20 silver to 1 gold and 200 silver. I just don't see the sense in that enormous an increase. Plus, as it stands, we'll be spending 4 times as much on seeds till they correct the 1:1 ratio bug (still hoping it's a bug).

    I think there's plenty of good reasons to make a variety of fields and not strictly one or the other. It just depends on one's goals.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    585

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    TheREALify, thank you very much for the time and effort you put into getting these figures for me. I'm going to shamelessly make use of your hard work in order to explain, in painstaking detail (in case anyone reading this is still unconvinced), why farmers are crying foul in RoI.

    In the following examples we will be comparing growing 400 winter barley in the old system using a 1:4 ratio, to 400 black barley with the "new improved" 1:1 ratio and bulk processing. I will compare to both "regular" T7 fields, and "hearty" T7 fields. I am not going to bother with the crit soil for any of these examples, since I have shown in previous posts that this actually makes the time increase worse, instead of better. I'm also not going to touch on the cost issue, except to say that farming is more expensive in RoI, and planting the hearty fields, much, much more expensive.

    400 Winter Barley
    27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 6 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 1 crop at the workbench, with a 1:4 yield ratio
    Fields needed: 17
    Time planting/harvesting: 459 seconds
    Workbench processes: 100
    Time at the workbench: 1,000 seconds
    ---> Total time to produce 400 Winter Barley with the old system: 1,459 seconds <----

    This is what we were used to. Now let's see how Turbine "improved" farming in RoI. Remember, that was supposed to be the whole point of introducing "bulk" processing!

    400 Black Barley in RoI, regular fields
    27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 3.5 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 5 crops at the workbench, with a 1:1 yield ratio
    Fields needed: 115
    Time planting/harvesting: 3,105 seconds
    Workbench processes: 80
    Time at the workbench: 800 seconds
    Total time to produce 400 Black Barley with regular fields and bulk processing: 3,905 seconds

    Ouch. That doesn't look improved, does it? Well, how about those hearty fields? We know they are better than regular T7 fields, but are they an improvement over the old system?

    400 Black Barley in RoI, hearty fields
    27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 6.5 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 5 crops at the workbench, with a 1:1 yield ratio
    Fields needed: 62
    Time planting/harvesting: 1,674 seconds
    Workbench processes: 80
    Time at the workbench: 800 seconds
    Total time to produce 400 Black Barley with hearty fields and bulk processing: 2,474 seconds

    As you can see from the above, farming in RoI is much worse than previously. Turbine's claim that they were going to improve our efficiency and production is absolutely untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post
    And the five-at-a-time workbench recipes are five times better than processing in the previous 6 tiers.
    This is a common thought, but it's not correct. Look at the above examples. Time at the workbench making 400 winter barley: 1,000 seconds. Time at the workbench making 400 black barley with "bulk" processing: 800 seconds. We are not 5x as efficient at the workbench as before. We are 25% faster. Before, we were able to make 4 barley every 10 seconds, and now we can make 5. Due to the 1:4 ratio fallling to 1:1, our shiny new "bulk" processing is really only a fraction faster than before.

    No matter WHAT you do in RoI, farming is going to take a lot longer. There is no shortcut, no special seed, soil or farming tool, that can prevent this. "Bulk" farming is a lie that saves only 20% of workbench time while the 1:1 ratio forces us to farm 3 to 7 times as many fields as before. The above examples are crystal clear: farmers have been severely punished in this expansion.

    However, all this could be quickly and easily fixed by changing the ratio back to 1:4. As you explained in your previous post quite well, all of Turbine's promises about improving our production and efficiency would then be TRUE. I'll illustrate.

    400 Black Barley, regular fields
    27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 3.5 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 5 crops at the workbench, with a proposed 1:4 yield ratio
    Fields needed: 29
    Time planting/harvesting: 783 seconds
    Workbench processes: 20
    Time at the workbench: 200 seconds
    Total time to produce 400 Black Barley with regular fields and bulk processing: 983 seconds

    A clear time savings from T1-T6. And now for the more expensive, hearty fields:

    400 Black Barley, hearty fields
    27 seconds to plant and harvest a field, 6.5 average crops per field, 10 seconds to process 5 crops at the workbench, with a proposed 1:4 yield ratio
    Fields needed: 16
    Time planting/harvesting: 432 seconds
    Workbench processes: 20
    Time at the workbench: 200 seconds
    Total time to produce 400 Black Barley with regular fields and bulk processing: 632 seconds

    With all of this effort, I want to make one thing perfectly clear. Farmers aren't whining because farming got harder in RoI. A lot of things change with expansions, and most of us expect that and try to take the changes in stride. The source of our disappointment and frustration is that farming was made quite a bit harder after Turbine specifically stated they were going to make it better. Either they knew that was false and were just trying to trick us into thinking we were getting an improvement (which is demonstrably untrue and insulting to boot), or they goofed. I keep hoping, like I'm sure you do, that they just goofed.

    And I really hope we are not wasting our time with these detailed examples, and asking again that Turbine take an honest look at the issue and fix our profession!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c21400000002b366/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    [COLOR="lightblue"]~.~ [I]Real LOTRO PvP happens on the AH.[/I] ~.~[/COLOR]

  24. #49

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    TheREALify, thank you very much for the time and effort you put into getting these figures for me.
    You're welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    I'm going to shamelessly make use of your hard work in order to explain, in painstaking detail (in case anyone reading this is still unconvinced), why farmers are crying foul in RoI.
    I thought that was the plan all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evebel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post
    And the five-at-a-time workbench recipes are five times better than processing in the previous 6 tiers.
    This is a common thought, but it's not correct.
    Minor quibble here again. When I said that, I was only comparing the five-at-a-time recipe with other processing recipes across the lower tiers. In this limited case the five-at-a-time recipe does represent a five fold improvement. However, when taken in the larger context of Farming as a whole, as I noted in the following paragraph, any time savings offered by the five-at-a-time is more than nullified by the 1:1 ratio. The time spent in the field planting and harvesting needed to compensate for the reduced 1:1 ratio is much greater than the amount of time saved by the five-at-a-time recipe.

    However, I think you are aware of this. I think you were just trying to drive the point home as it were - that the five-at-a-time recipe does nothing to make up for the loss of productivity felt across the rest of the Farming profession. On that point I believe we agree wholeheartedly.

    Apart from that I think you've hit the nail on the head. I approve of your post.

    I'd also like to echo what you (Evebel) said about motivations. I'm not doing this as a complaint. I honestly believe that somewhere between the marketing and implementation of the Farming update something went haywire. I hope that with proper research and examples we can provide Turbine with the evidence they need to confirm and correct the mistake. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy at work. I think someone, like you said, just goofed.

    Actually, I think they accidentally multiplied the seed prices by 4 while leaving the crop production at 1:1. I think it should have been the other way around. Crop production should be 4 times greater and seeds prices should be a quarter of their current cost. Maybe that's just me. I think I'm the only one who is unhappy about the seed prices at this point. I dunno, a 5900% price increase just seems a little over the top to me.

    [b]Evebel[/i] thank you for taking the time to put the examples together. Good work! I hope someone takes notice of all this. I keep watching the Known Issues list - and I keep hoping to see Farming added to that list.

    I guess now we just wait and see if we hear anything from the folks at Turbine...

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    585

    Re: RoI: Am I missing something, or is Turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post
    Minor quibble here again.
    I had a feeling you were going to take issue with this. And the reason I keep harping on it is not, I swear, to pick a fight. I know you understand the problem already. I don't think Turbine does!

    I think this misunderstanding is the very reason Turbine "goofed" farming in the first place.

    If they really believe that workbench processing is five times as fast as it used to be, they could be reading our posts and going, "What are you complaining about? So you have to plant a few more fields? So what? Once you are done planting, you can get your finished produce lightning quick!"

    However, as I showed in my examples above, workbench processing is not five times faster.

    Making 5 barley every 10 seconds is not five times as fast as making 4 barley every 10 seconds. It's 25% faster.

    And honestly, farmers would be thrilled with a 25% buff if that were the only thing going on here. But it's not.

    The change from a 1:4 ratio to a 1:1 ratio hits farmers in two separate places. I emphasize this because I really don't think Turbine considered it. I think they considered only one of them.

    First, there is the straight nerf to "bulk" processing. "Bulk" processing, on the face of it, was supposed to let us process our crops five times as fast as before. Before, we had to process crops 1 at a time. Now, we can do 5 at a time. However, before, that 1 crop, all by it's little lonesome, was producing 4 items. Now, with the 1:1 ratio fall, each crop is producing only 1 item. You can do 5 at a time with "bulk" processing, sure. But instead of making 20 items at a time, (which makes sense for a term like "bulk"), we're making only 5 at a time. Such a small net increase (going from 4 items every 10 seconds to 5 items every 10 seconds) seems to hardly warrant the term "bulk."

    Secondly, those crops didn't fall from the sky. We had to grow them. And in order to bring them to the workbench, we had to farm four times as many as before. This is the second hit, and the one I think Turbine neglected to consider. Each crop making only 1 item means we have to farm four times as many crops before we even get them to the workbench!

    So, it's a buff, followed by two nerfs. The net effect is still a nerf. And it seems obvious to me that Turbine didn't realize they were nerfing us twice.

    Or perhaps they did. And perhaps "hearty" fields were supposed to make up the difference. If a "hearty" field produced a truly huge number of crops (say, four or five times as much as regular fields, to justify their price), we'd be coming out about even. A buff, followed by two nerfs, followed by a buff? Only, hearty fields don't produce a lot of crops. Oddly, they return about the same amount as the previous tier fields (6 in T1-T6, compared to 6.5 in T7). So there was no buff there at all.

    Or, perhaps crit soil was supposed to be the second buff to make up the difference. Maybe it was supposed to generate a crazy number of additional crops. But it only gives a few extra...which would be ok, if the time needed to make the peat in the first place wasn't 20 seconds each. Since it is, making and using the crit soil is like a third nerf, costing you the same amount of time as planting a whole new field, while returning fewer crops.

    This whole picture doesn't make sense. All the "bonuses" we were supposed to get fall flat and provide no real benefit at all. The advertised "bulk" processing heavily nerfed. "Hearty" fields generate the same number of crops as regular fields did before. Crit soil returns no extra crops for time invested. And underscoring all of this, the frustrating and time-draining need to plant four times as much as we did before.

    Bah.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c21400000002b366/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    [COLOR="lightblue"]~.~ [I]Real LOTRO PvP happens on the AH.[/I] ~.~[/COLOR]

 

 
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