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  1. #26

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    For the OP, all I can say is if you feel that strongly, then go for it. Do what you enjoy and if that means playing something that you feel the group will benefit most by then do it.

    For me personally, I am still withholding judgement till I can get in there and test some real numbers with some real builds myself. I will admit I was late to the scene on my warden having played my LM/Guard for most of BG. But it was my Warden who was there for the first LT kill for my kin. It was my Warden who was there for every OD HM challenge kill. I personally like bringing the Warden/Guard combo. I hope they do as well of a job balancing the new content as they did with OD. That is a tall order though and with the mechanics changes, who is to say if everything will remain in balance or not. Either way, I will still be playing my warden for as long as I do not see my warden as being a failing point in a group.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0720600000013903d/signature.png]Llothdeturtle[/charsig]
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  2. #27
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by horus418 View Post
    You forgot to mention the dumb ferrets...
    Thanks for correcting me.

    Ironically the Burglar (second least played class) dev said almost exactly the same thing, and got (I think) quite a bit more rage in the Burglar feedback thread.

    Luckily the mechanics changes are mostly pretty good for or don't effect Burglars, and there was some decent stuff in the update for them.
    Last edited by Evendale; Sep 24 2011 at 09:41 PM.
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  3. #28

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    I don't buy that it's going to be as bad as some of you are making it out to be. No need to go over the relative damage increases, as I understand that perfectly, but I'm still not convinced Wardens are going to be worse off in raids than they are now. Fact is we now have a panic button and aggro management tools that we didn't have before. No one has said it explicitly but let's not compare Guards to DPS tanking Wardens either (as all this extra work for the healers would imply). I DPS tank some things but when you really want to get down to the nitty-gritty and show off what a Warden is all about, traiting healing is where it's at. That's where Wardens really shine in raiding, IMO.

    Wardens will take more damage than Guards (as they always have and should), and just because it's going to be more relative damage than it is now honestly doesn't worry me. I don't have problems staying alive in raids, and I am very sure I do not overtax my healers (shield traited). In fact in many situations I require less attention than a Guard would because outside of the boss fight itself, where I have no shortage of heals, most things don't do enough damage to require 24/7 dedicated healing. Having a better avoidance but taking more damage doesn't worry me until I start tanking the raid on t2 and take a look at how things stack up. You know a good way to recover from that big crit that might be 2k more than a Guard (exaggeration)? Completely avoid the next 4-5 attacks which I routinely do at only 15% caps.

    I wouldn't even consider agreeing with one of these threads until I get in there with the new raid on t2 challenge mode and see what I can do. I don't think Wardens will be incapable of doing it (yes it will be tougher on the player) but I don't think it will hurt the raid. Nothing I've done so far has hurt my raid because they chose me over a Guardian, I don't see why all of a sudden it would start especially after giving us better raid tools.

    Again, I get the math (Physics degree) but I also know the harm in relying on statistics in a vacuum. I think we should get out there and work on the new raid, as well as the upcoming instance cluster, before we start hooting and hollering about Wardens being useless in raids (yet again). No amount of math is going to tell me what actually playing the game will.

    Also Evendale, I respect your posts and love your Combat Analysis. Without that, I wouldn't be nearly as informed as I am now. With that said, it's hard to take what you say to heart when you don't have a Warden. I won't say anything about what a Guardian can or can't do, I will only speak to what a Warden can do and what they can do is tank raids without a problem. I don't require any favors from the group to tank with my Warden, and the suggestion that groups have to sacrifice something to bring one is just wrong.
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  4. #29
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    Thanks for correcting me.

    Ironically the Burglar (second least played class) dev said almost exactly the same thing, and got (I think) quite a bit more rage in the Burglar feedback thread.

    Luckily the mechanics changes are mostly pretty good for or don't effect Burglars, and there was some decent stuff in the update for them.
    That's mostly because the Burg is legitimately worse-off than the Warden is. The major issues (aggro-swapping and recovery) are being addressed. I think we'll need to wait til the first instance cluster to really see how the Warden pans out in Isengard, though, since people will be all over the place until they get all their instance armor sets sorted out, and geared up in lvl 75 instance jewelry.
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  5. #30
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    but I also know the harm in relying on statistics in a vacuum
    Bravo and some rep. Too much theory crafting is happening and too many theories are being built off of that crafting and accepted as law for discussion to be as effective as it could be. It's also disheartening that every time new info comes out these forums go through a cycle of doom and gloom, then productive and logical analysis, and then we run out of things to talk about and the forums go crazy in a ferret cooky filled ####. That constant cycle tends to cast my personal doubt on the legitimacy of threads created in direct response to dev diaries or info. On that note:

    Quote Originally Posted by horus418 View Post
    Yeah really... Nothing like having your own Dev fuel the flames. Smooth move Orion, thanks for giving all the "haters", more incentive...

    You forgot to mention the dumb ferrets...
    This is the fourth time I've seen that you've whined about this. Stop it. Some people enjoy these little forum jokes and we have the right to do what we like with the forums. I for one don't like 90% of the things you say or do but I don't tell you to go somewhere else, please respect that.
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  6. #31
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Regero View Post
    Bravo and some rep. Too much theory crafting is happening and too many theories are being built off of that crafting and accepted as law for discussion to be as effective as it could be. It's also disheartening that every time new info comes out these forums go through a cycle of doom and gloom, then productive and logical analysis, and then we run out of things to talk about and the forums go crazy in a ferret cooky filled ####. That constant cycle tends to cast my personal doubt on the legitimacy of threads created in direct response to dev diaries or info. On that note:



    This is the fourth time I've seen that you've whined about this. Stop it. Some people enjoy these little forum jokes and we have the right to do what we like with the forums. I for one don't like 90% of the things you say or do but I don't tell you to go somewhere else, please respect that.
    I'd +rep you for this but I need to spread it around more first
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  7. #32

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Bravo to both Tammar and Glorno. Too many only theory craft and then usually with blinders on instead of looking at what is actually happening. I much prefer talking about what has actually happened than about what might happen if the stars all line up just so to allow for the hidden nerf to slip through and ....

    Let's wait, try it, see some actual numbers and scenarios and then start comparing the classes again with a new set of blinders on and agendas to push.

    In the mean time, I am going to continue to enjoy the heck out of my warden and keep on pushing his limits.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0720600000013903d/signature.png]Llothdeturtle[/charsig]
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  8. #33

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    Really, if I played a Warden I'd be pretty shocked and angry that Orion said Wardens are in a good place (apparently more so than Champs and Minstrels? !?).
    They are in a good place. End game raiding does NOT define the entire game experience for most people playing wardens, so when the dev says the class is in a pretty good place, he's talking about the class over the entire scope of the game.

  9. #34
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    I stopped playing my Guard in MoM when they effed up the Threat mechanic and turned the class into a wanna-be-Champion. You will find the tanking aspect of the class to be very facile compared to Wardens. Quite dull really, but enjoy...
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  10. #35
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by ANewMachine View Post
    That's mostly because the Burg is legitimately worse-off than the Warden is. The major issues (aggro-swapping and recovery) are being addressed. I think we'll need to wait til the first instance cluster to really see how the Warden pans out in Isengard, though, since people will be all over the place until they get all their instance armor sets sorted out, and geared up in lvl 75 instance jewelry.
    The highest single target dmg contributing class is worse off than Wardens? Does not compute.


    So, a totally unrelated question then I guess, why do you guys think so few people play wardens? Is the gambit system too daunting for most people? Do the ferrets scare them away? Or what?
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  11. #36

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    So, a totally unrelated question then I guess, why do you guys think so few people play wardens? Is the gambit system too daunting for most people? Do the ferrets scare them away? Or what?
    The simple answer is that it is a difficult class. You will see more "basic" classes than "advanced" classes in any game.

    The more convoluted answer I think is that a Warden is either love it or hate. It's not a good alt class, to get the most out of it I think it really has to be your main (as mine has become). Pretty much any other class can be played 100% effectively as a 2nd or 3rd alt. Lots of people already had mains before Wardens even existed, that probably contributes to some of it. Some may have liked it, but didn't want to put the time into memorizing everything.
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  12. #37
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    So, a totally unrelated question then I guess, why do you guys think so few people play wardens? Is the gambit system too daunting for most people? Do the ferrets scare them away? Or what?
    From what I've seen a substantial number of multi-character players actually create and level Wardens to 65. Almost as many as make Guardian alts. Once they get to 65 they realize that they don't have the patience/desire/skill to actually enjoy their Warden so he gets shelved. The Guardian can be played and be useful with very little experience, just press a few buttons and you're doing fine. So unless you are willing and able to not only learn to play a Warden but also to keep your personal skills honed through regular play, you will fail miserably. The Guardian can sit on a bench for weeks and still be effective within 5 minutes of clearing the cobwebs off his beard. That's what I've seen in the Kin, on the server, and heard from other players. So if a player just wants to roll a tank to help his friends and enjoy a different aspect of group play, then a Guardian is obviously the superior choice.

    As for other reasons?
    Imagine being a bit insecure and then being told that your class is useless at its main role? Imagine seeing other classes faceroll your job? Imagine not being given a chance to learn how to perform your job before people get impatient and call you names? Imagine having to do things differently from others with the same job and then being blamed for being different? Imagine reading post after post in the forums where people say that your class is broken and a hindrance to group play? Imagine visiting the Warden Forum and seeing people write about various amazing feats they have pulled off solo?
    I'm sure that those things could make an insecure player say to himself, "It's not worth it! I'll solo a bit on my Warden and use an easy class in groups!"

    That, and the ferrets.

  13. #38
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    So, a totally unrelated question then I guess, why do you guys think so few people play wardens? Is the gambit system too daunting for most people? Do the ferrets scare them away? Or what?
    I agree with the people posting before me, but here's one important additional reason:
    - Warden must be "purchased" for TP in the new F2P era

    This definitely reduces the number of new players trying it. New players see RKs blowing things up, learn from others that they can also heal, and can't wait to purchase the class.

    On the other hand, they might see a Warden wandering somewhere on their own, will hear from others that it's really hard to play, will be told if they want to tank "to just roll a Guard, it's free" and will then proceed to save up their TP for cosmetic horses

    (I don't think the ferrets scare them away, rather when Wardens get ferrets as in-game pets the class will flourish )
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  14. #39

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    I agree with mostly everything that thunderchicken says in post #28, which is why I'm in the wait and see camp. Crunching numbers isn't always the way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by ANewMachine View Post
    The major issues (aggro-swapping and recovery) are being addressed.
    This I do not agree with. Aggro swapping was not a major issue, swapping is super easy with a guard and only mildly difficult with another warden. Threat recovery may or may not have been addressed with Aggression, but I'm not so sure that is Aggression's main intention anyway. The main issue has always been spike damage, and nothing has been done to address that issue, 350 crit defense sure doesn't help in a noticeable manner.

    I always thought that giving wardens more BPE would help with the mitigation gap and spike damage. We get more BPE now, but with a wider mitigation gap... what's the point of that? lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    So, a totally unrelated question then I guess, why do you guys think so few people play wardens? Is the gambit system too daunting for most people? Do the ferrets scare them away? Or what?
    IMO, a lot of that has to due with the nature of this forum. People are very turned off by what a lot of wadens have to say in this forum. I know I get lumped in with wardens "with a chip on their shoulder", if I debate anything in another forum, when nothing could be farther from the truth. Lots of mindless derailing and silly pictures do not help the cause. For a class that is supposedly so underplayed, why does this forum have 10,000 more posts than the next most popular forum? I guess wadens like skimming through 3 pages of %&*@ in order to read 4 on topic posts...

    That and horrible wadens... 90% (at least), of the ones I've grouped with just plain stink in 3 mans, 6 mans and 12 mans... sure they can solo...

    Heap on top of that, the negative comment from our very own dev on the subject of raiding...
    Last edited by horus418; Sep 25 2011 at 09:31 AM.

  15. #40
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    So, a totally unrelated question then I guess, why do you guys think so few people play wardens? Is the gambit system too daunting for most people? Do the ferrets scare them away? Or what?
    It's effort versus reward most likely. For me my warden is my most fun class to solo with largely because the gambit system makes it feel more fast paced. On the flip side of the coin it is the class I least like to group with. I'm fairly certain I could tank most instances. I don't have trouble remembering or quickly building appropriate gambits. It just seems like way more effort than the reward. Why tank with a warden when you can do the same job so much more easily with a guard. And by easy I mean play style not power wise.

    Most people play games to relax. That's why "hardcore" raiders are like 1% and not 50% of game populations. I would say that in group situations, which tend to be more frantic and chaotic than soloing just by design, the added hassle of the gambit system is simply not appealing even to those who actually like to tank.

    Which leads to the other part, tanking sucks. Always has always will. It only appeals to so many people. The same with healing. Your success or failure in either role is felt by the group much more strongly than your success or failure as a dps. Which is partly why dps is so much more popular than either tanking or healing.

  16. #41

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by horus418 View Post
    Heap on top of that, the negative comment from our very own dev on the subject of raiding...
    I thought he was being misunderstood, tough to have a sentence scrutinized when you just meant it as a passing comment. Anyways he has clarified and pretty much said what I thought all along; Wardens will be in a better place for raiding in ROI but there is still room for improvement. He didn't say specifically what improvements but I'm guessing boosts to our self heals, morale leeches, and crit defence are on that list.
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  17. #42
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by horus418 View Post
    IMO, a lot of that has to due with the nature of this forum. For a class that is supposedly so underplayed, why does this forum have 10,000 more posts than the next most popular forum? I guess wadens like skimming through 3 pages of %&*@ in order to read 4 on topic posts...
    Another reason could be that wardens are so used to having to spam their builders that this attitude transfers to the forums as well


    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale
    So, a totally unrelated question then I guess, why do you guys think so few people play wardens? Is the gambit system too daunting for most people? Do the ferrets scare them away? Or what?
    I think it's b/c it's quite hard to twink wardens and be efficient. (or at least as efficient as wehn twinking other classes)
    Most main-wardens are awesome and will always find a spot even in tough Raids, because those players simply deliver. But twinking a warden is quite impossible - you need to be active all the time, optimally got muscle memory doing your gambits and also got the highest number of possible skills to choose the riht ones fpr exact the _upcomig_ situation in the next 2-10 seconds to choose from. Combined with quite unforgiving armor values (for a tank) and messing up once messing up your _whole contribution_ which took 2-5 seconds to build... naw, just not casual-freindly.
    At least for my part I can easily twink my Guard in OD and get along, but there's not a single good twinked warden in my kin, no matter how often we tried to improve. It just takes too much effort, ppl rather twink another class rather quickly (or guard if they want to tank from time to time) =/

  18. #43
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    Also, a large part of the added difficulty of playing a Warden in a raid is felt by your healer rather than you, so if you don't have an understanding healer....
    Odd. The first time that I had to use my Warden for OD, both healers commented on how easy I was to heal. If a rarely-used alt can receive that praise, I'm fairly sure that regular Wardens are even easier to heal.

    I won't deny that Wardens aren't exactly equipped with any Pledge-like easy buttons, though.

  19. #44

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Odd. The first time that I had to use my Warden for OD, both healers commented on how easy I was to heal. If a rarely-used alt can receive that praise, I'm fairly sure that regular Wardens are even easier to heal.

    I won't deny that Wardens aren't exactly equipped with any Pledge-like easy buttons, though.
    Again with all due respect to Evendale, this is why I don't think someone who doesn't play a Warden can accurately comment on them. I wouldn't expect to be able to give accurate opinions on the intricacies of Guardian mechanics because I don't play one.

    Everything I have heard from healers is that I am easier to heal than Guardians because of my self heals (and probably due partly to high avoidance). This tells me that currently our heals outweigh the difference in mitigations and then some. In ROI if there is a bigger gap in mitigations it's probably not going to be a problem. This is why we can't use statistics while ignoring the bigger picture.
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  20. #45
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by horus418 View Post
    That and horrible wadens... 90% (at least), of the ones I've grouped with just plain stink in 3 mans, 6 mans and 12 mans... sure they can solo...

    Heap on top of that, the negative comment from our very own dev on the subject of raiding...
    Horrible Wadens is an oxymoron. If a warden player is horrible, NO WAY did he loose his R, EVER.

  21. #46
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Horrible Wadens is an oxymoron. If a warden player is horrible, NO WAY did he loose his R, EVER.
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  22. #47

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by geoboy View Post
    I've got enough alts that gameplay never gets stale.
    Exactly. I'm a bit of a newb to the game, but I finally made a Warden on Saturday, and grinded (ground?) all the way to level 21 by Sunday night. And y'know what? I wasn't bored at all, just a little sleepy from gaming my ### off. That's how much I'm having playing this new character, and I highly suggest that non-Wardens browsing this thread try it out, if only for fun.

    Also, I played a little this morning before work and the base power-reduction on skills helps a lot. *claps*

  23. #48
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    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    Again with all due respect to Evendale, this is why I don't think someone who doesn't play a Warden can accurately comment on them. I wouldn't expect to be able to give accurate opinions on the intricacies of Guardian mechanics because I don't play one.

    Everything I have heard from healers is that I am easier to heal than Guardians because of my self heals (and probably due partly to high avoidance). This tells me that currently our heals outweigh the difference in mitigations and then some. In ROI if there is a bigger gap in mitigations it's probably not going to be a problem. This is why we can't use statistics while ignoring the bigger picture.
    This is what I have observed in OD as well.
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  24. #49

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by MorliX View Post
    This is what I have observed in OD as well.
    Let us not forget that we cannot compare the average skill level of one class (for wardens this is abysmally low, guards not as low) by the best of another class. Doing so is unfair to both. Just because one CAN do amazing things with the guard with the right amount of time and gear does not mean that ALL guards do this. By the same coin just because a really good warden CAN survive amazing odds does not mean that ALL wardens can do this. For both classes it depends entirely on gear and player skill.

    Both classes can be amazing. We should work to improve ourselves and those new wardens (or guardians! for you guards) that really need guidance rather than fight about what class is better.
    Beleag, Warden - Saelmundi, Rune-keeper - Nimerdale, Champion - Haldoun, Captain

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    152

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    If Wardens aren't being played enough, its gotta be because of the stinkin ferrets!!!

    I told you guys we need Honey Badgers as our mascot!

    I told ya! But didja listen???

    No...always with the stinkin ferrets...stinkin lousy creeping ferrets, I hates em!

    Now Honey Badgers otoh, they just don't give a &^%$, they'll take whatevah they want....just like Wardens do!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg
    Last edited by Smacx; Sep 27 2011 at 07:18 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/01203000000148b32/signature.png]Smacx[/charsig]

 

 
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