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  1. #51

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by ismokerocks View Post
    Exactly. I'm a bit of a newb to the game, but I finally made a Warden on Saturday, and grinded (ground?) all the way to level 21 by Sunday night. And y'know what? I wasn't bored at all, just a little sleepy from gaming my ### off. That's how much I'm having playing this new character, and I highly suggest that non-Wardens browsing this thread try it out, if only for fun.

    Also, I played a little this morning before work and the base power-reduction on skills helps a lot. *claps*
    I'm a newb also that started a hunter to learn the game but now main my warden. It works. Hunters are easy solo toons and frankly, so are wardens. You don't need a massive number of gambits to survive as long as you pull smartly. Soloing wardens early is probably good for later tanking because it allows you gradually add and master your gambits. At the rate I'm going, there will be no problems knowing all of them by heart and it will then be learning how to properly apply them to the situations.

    Looking forward to trying out the new changes. Any power cost reduction is always going to be really helpful (says the 29 solo with no Dark Before Dawn).
    100 Warden / RK / LM / Captain / Guardian / Hunter / Burg / Champ / Minstrel
    Brandywine

  2. #52
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    232

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    Again, I get the math (Physics degree) but I also know the harm in relying on statistics in a vacuum. I think we should get out there and work on the new raid, as well as the upcoming instance cluster, before we start hooting and hollering about Wardens being useless in raids (yet again). No amount of math is going to tell me what actually playing the game will.

    Also Evendale, I respect your posts and love your Combat Analysis. Without that, I wouldn't be nearly as informed as I am now. With that said, it's hard to take what you say to heart when you don't have a Warden. I won't say anything about what a Guardian can or can't do, I will only speak to what a Warden can do and what they can do is tank raids without a problem. I don't require any favors from the group to tank with my Warden, and the suggestion that groups have to sacrifice something to bring one is just wrong.
    Speaking as someone who did quite a bit of number-crunching and theory-crafting in WoW*, all I can say is... SOMEONE GETS IT!!!

    So many people do "tests" (in the loosest sense of the word too), spit out some number, and declare the end of a class. While no attempt is made to put that number into a normal situation or to see if the situation they "tested" under is even possible. How much avoidance reduction is a normal raid boss going to cause? And how hard will that boss hit and how frequently? What sort of damage so "typical" raid bosses do? Heck, how much healing is "wasted" in a typical raid because the healers spam-heal the tank(s) to keep them full instead of pacing their heals to keep them around 90%? All of those are things that need to be factored in before even asking "is this test even worth running?" To see someone actually understand that is a minor miracle here.

    To the OP. If your kin truly can't handle the content with a warden filling one or more of the tank roles, then they aren't going to be able to handle the content period. I've done server firsts, my first serious guild in WoW got the server-first kill for Onxyia. And with the mix we brought in (heavy on melee, no dwarf priest, one paladin for sanctuary, several balance druids, and most of our ranged being warlocks) people said we couldn't do it. We did - and could count the pieces of Molten Core gear in the guild on two hands with fingers left over. Completing content isn't a matter of "do we have X of Y class", it's a matter of "do we have at least the minimum amount of tanks, heals, damage, and if we do then lets come up with a plan that works given what we have." When people start saying "need X class", they are saying "I am too scared of having to adapt my way of doing things to break from what I know works." My recommendation is to take your warden out and play with him - if the kin says to bring your guardian instead then tell them no. If they still insist give them the finger and leave (and make a big stink about it on kin chat and vent too). A good kin has it's members working towards a common goal - a bad one places extra burdens on it's members rather than work through something.

    *Tough. I don't care if you think because the game changes that everything learned there can be tossed. Things like testing for statistical significance don't change just because you don't like a particular game.

  3. #53

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkile View Post
    Firstly a brief history since this is my first real post since the EU servers changed ownership.

    My main character and passion since the release of MoM has been my Warden: Arkenward. I rolled the character the moment the Eldar server came online when MoM was released. I pioneered the use of the class in my kinship, on my server and as part of the EU community.

    I constantly tried to push the boundaries of what people believed the class was capable of. Luckily I had a supportive kinship who were prepared to give an unknown class a chance. As a group we began to recognize which encounters suited which tank type better - we were for a time ahead of the curve. These I believe were the best days to be a Warden from Volume 2 Book 7 to the release of SoM.

    Since the release of SoM I believe the Warden has been in-decline and it's utility overlooked, not as a result of the class and it's skills being bad, but because the content changed into encounters which the Warden didn't have the utilities to deal with (e.g. agro management and snapping such as Engage). SoM still had it's days for the Warden though and I was even present for the first time my kinship cleared Gotheron T2 challenge mode.

    I'll say at this point though that this is not so much a QQ as a lament.

    With the immenent release of RoI it is becoming all too apparent that the Warden has once again been overlooked, but now it has gone too far. You don't have to look far on this forum to see the posts by those with foresight and skill 'doing the math' and figuring out how bad the outlook is for the Warden in RoI. The lack of scaling self heals, the increased effects of finesses on Wardens over Guardians and the still unusable Way of the Fist line traits are prime examples.

    I started my raiding life in LotRO as a Guardian and tanking is my passion - I don't want to abandon my Warden, but for my kinship to have the highest chance of successfully clearing the new content I feel my hand has been forced. I am a team player, and I can't in put my love of a class before the goals and aims of my kinship. Come Tuesday my main character will be my Guardian again for the first time in almost 3 years.

    I will level my Warden as an alt in the hope that Orion considers the feedback left by others on this forum. I have faith that this is just a phase, but Turbine is like a cargo ship and can take a long time to react/turn.
    I'm fairly new to LOTRO but I thought I'd leave some words of what I hope are comfort. I came from a certain other popular MMO and every major content patch or expansion all the doomsayers come out and gripe about how they are RUINED RUINED RUINED to the point that often people will begin to believe it until they actually log in after patch day and see it for themselves. Sometimes things are bad, usually it's been exaggerated if it is, but usually things are just fine, it's just a new mechanic people adjust to. Don't give up yet, try it out first.

  4. #54

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    IMO, OP really is NOT saying which class has better or worse tanking capability.


    Basic line, both Warden and Guardian are able main tank with equal and well-balanced capabilities to do every content in the game. Crunch number or theory crafting tended to agree with above statement.

    The point of argument is for a particular content, how easy is for each class to finish the job, Guardian will do it in 1st try, Warden will need 2-3 tries, which is inevitably tied to class play style difficulty.

    Using survivability as an example. both classes are giving well balanced capability to survive, higher mitigation vs. higher avoidance +Hot. How to measure survivability, your healer will tell you.

    To achieve same level of survivability, the effort is different. Guardian higher mitigation is passive within the build, requires minimum effort in combat. and Warden higher avoidance + HoT requires higher maintenance cost in combat, which can ultimately hinge Warden's threat generation.

    In any group content, Guardian does one thing mainly, maintain threat. Warden will do three things, maintain threat, defensive buff, and HoT. How a Warden split up his/her time on these 3 things and do them in what order is totally group composition and boss specific. Skilled Warden will be able to split up time to do three things in right amount and right order.

    All following numbers are hypothetical to just show the idea:
    For first try, Warden will almost for sure spending more time on threat than other two things, say 75% time to generate threat, 15% for defense buff and 10% for HoT. Healer will be stressed out. Once it gets familiar with the content, Warden can adjust to less time for threat and more time for HoT and buff. Eventually, Warden can find out, it only needs 33% time to generate threat, still able to maintain threat lead, then more HoT and all defensive buff. And now the healer will be appraised how much easier to heal a Warden.

    For Guardian, this complexity doesn't exist, that is why PUG, new Content, Guardian does better job then Warden.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d21600000013720a/signature.png]Caltraen[/charsig][url=http://my.lotro.com/home/character/dwarrowdelf/calttrien]
    Calttrien 85 Guardian [/url]

  5. #55

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by HunterByHeart View Post
    IMO, OP really is NOT saying which class has better or worse tanking capability.


    Basic line, both Warden and Guardian are able main tank with equal and well-balanced capabilities to do every content in the game. Crunch number or theory crafting tended to agree with above statement.

    The point of argument is for a particular content, how easy is for each class to finish the job, Guardian will do it in 1st try, Warden will need 2-3 tries, which is inevitably tied to class play style difficulty.

    Using survivability as an example. both classes are giving well balanced capability to survive, higher mitigation vs. higher avoidance +Hot. How to measure survivability, your healer will tell you.

    To achieve same level of survivability, the effort is different. Guardian higher mitigation is passive within the build, requires minimum effort in combat. and Warden higher avoidance + HoT requires higher maintenance cost in combat, which can ultimately hinge Warden's threat generation.

    In any group content, Guardian does one thing mainly, maintain threat. Warden will do three things, maintain threat, defensive buff, and HoT. How a Warden split up his/her time on these 3 things and do them in what order is totally group composition and boss specific. Skilled Warden will be able to split up time to do three things in right amount and right order.

    All following numbers are hypothetical to just show the idea:
    For first try, Warden will almost for sure spending more time on threat than other two things, say 75% time to generate threat, 15% for defense buff and 10% for HoT. Healer will be stressed out. Once it gets familiar with the content, Warden can adjust to less time for threat and more time for HoT and buff. Eventually, Warden can find out, it only needs 33% time to generate threat, still able to maintain threat lead, then more HoT and all defensive buff. And now the healer will be appraised how much easier to heal a Warden.

    For Guardian, this complexity doesn't exist, that is why PUG, new Content, Guardian does better job then Warden.
    ^This. You know, I once read a thread asking what separates a good warden from a great warden. I think the difference between the two is best described like this: A good warden can hold aggro. A good warden can keep himself alive without stressing the healer. A great warden can do both of these at the same time.

    And to the OP, there is nothing but buffs for the Warden class. No nerfs whatsoever. There will always be discrepencies between tanking classes; thats just how games work. But after playing in the expansion for two days, my warden is stronger, sturdier, and burns through power at a MUCH slower pace. While this may proove true for Guardians as well, I think the gap between Wardens and Guardians has grown smaller, not larger. I don't have any tests to back this up, no theorycrafting. All I'm going off of is what I have felt in-game, and I can honestly say my Warden is much better off in RoI than he was in SoM.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,273

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Have you tried playing an under-65 warden since the expansion? Go ahead. It's funny! </sarcasm off>

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    France
    Posts
    141

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Faleros View Post
    And to the OP, there is nothing but buffs for the Warden class. No nerfs whatsoever. There will always be discrepencies between tanking classes; thats just how games work. But after playing in the expansion for two days, my warden is stronger, sturdier, and burns through power at a MUCH slower pace.
    You know what ? There is nothing but buffs for the NPCs as well. Higher levels, more morale, more dps. Of course we had to be better than before. It doesn't mean the gap between guardians and us has grown smaller.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2121f0000000eaf5b/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  8. #58

    Re: Switching from Warden to Guardian as of RoI

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeronth View Post
    You know what ? There is nothing but buffs for the NPCs as well. Higher levels, more morale, more dps. Of course we had to be better than before. It doesn't mean the gap between guardians and us has grown smaller.
    We also would have a higher level, more morale, and more dps without any off the buffs his post mentions

    I do feel more powerful, I feel like I can tank better. I will withhold judgement until I actually get my hands on either the Draigoch raid or some significant 6 man content before I say one way or another. For the meantime I am leaning towards us being more powerful (relative to the mobs) than we were at 65.
    [center]
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/tY1055I.jpg[/IMG]
    [color=green][b]Gloarn[/b][/color] 80 Burglar [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Glorn[/b][/color] 75 Champion [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Gloirn[/b][/color] 75 Rune-keeper [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Glourn[/b][/color] 75 Captain
    [color=brown][b]Glarnakh[/b][/color] R7 Warleader [color=grey]|[/color] [color=brown][b]Glarno[/b][/color] R6 Reaver
    [/center]

 

 
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