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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    North California
    Posts
    81

    Awesome Stupid Pictures

    Since the other thread that has gone off topic has gone to awesome stupid stuff, start posting them here to maintain order. =)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001349d9/signature.png]Ibaren[/charsig]

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    201

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures

    no! you dont get to start a silly pic thread without actually posting a pic in your thread asking for pics!

    also, come back to lotro. ive gotten quite a bit better and need to redeem my many losses to you

    shalalalaaalalalalallaiiiiiiii iya!
    ^thats my battle cry
    Last edited by Legs813; Sep 17 2011 at 01:02 AM.
    [[charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/092020000003a72f3/signature.png]Legskindal-1[/charsig]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    North California
    Posts
    81

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures

    Quote Originally Posted by Legs813 View Post
    no! you dont get to start a silly pic thread without actually posting a pic in your thread asking for pics!

    also, come back to lotro. ive gotten quite a bit better and need to redeem my many losses to you

    shalalalaaalalalalallaiiiiiiii iya!
    ^thats my battle cry
    I am only active on forums, (For the time being)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001349d9/signature.png]Ibaren[/charsig]

  4. #4

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures

    You have to realize that awesome stupid pictures get posted when a topic gets derailed, and since this topic is about aforementioned pictures it's technically impossible for any of them to get posted here. It's like dividing by zero, it tends to break reality when you do it.
    Last edited by Me_the_Third; Sep 19 2011 at 05:33 PM.
    Idmel

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,825

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures

    *Disclaimer*- This post is basically a thesis (5000+ words) on raid-group construction and tactics, with a large portion devoted to a detailed analysis of tank choice. It was written for those who find these kinds of topics and posts interesting and enjoyable. I expect most people won't, but I put a great deal of work into it, so I hope some few will find it enlightening at least. Enjoy! (if you can).

    The question of which tank class is better suited for raiding has been long debated. It's heated up again since the debut of OD - our first new progressive raid in over a year. Here are the two positions most people seem to take:

    Majority Position: Both Wardens and Guardians can main-tank any fight in the game, but Guards get the edge, mostly due to slightly better survivability and one skill: Engage. It makes both aggro-swapping and recovering from tank-death easier, and these are major issues in OD.

    Minority Position: Both classes can main-tank any fight in the game. While Guards get the edge in some fights, Wardens get the edge in just as many – a fact the Majority Position fails to acknowledge. The best tank you can get is usually the best choice, regardless of class, but choosing your tank based on the mechanics of your current fight is also important. Overall, the two classes are equal at tanking.

    I personally hold to the Minority Position, because I believe that the majority position is too narrowly focused and doesn't consider the whole equation. Here, I'm going to present an in-depth examination of the way I believe raid leaders should approach group-building for success (assuming other factors like fun, friendship, and participation are all accounted for). At the end, I'll discuss the specifics of how to consider the tanking options for OD, or any other raid.

    In order to build a raid group with the best chance of success, I believe a raid leader needs to consider one very important question: What are the biggest factors in determining the success or failure of any individual raid fight?

    In my experience, there are three: 1 - The understanding of fight mechanics/tactics. 2 - The execution of player tasks and/or responsibilities (which can also include out-of-raid responsibilities like grinding necessary traits, virtues, and gear). 3 - random factors (luck).

    I believe that 3 (luck) actually has very little or very infrequent impact, though it may not seem so at first. But, as 1 and 2 improve, most things that start off seeming like luck turn out to be controllable factors that just required more knowledge or skill. This is not true in all cases, but let's ignore luck for now and concentrate on the first 2 factors: fight mechanics and execution.

    Of the two, understanding fight mechanics provides the ceiling for your raid performance. Execution provides the basement. What I mean is that a group that perfectly understands the mechanics of a fight can have less than optimal execution and still win. However, perfectly executing a significantly flawed plan will still result in failure. It's this fact that causes well-oiled, experienced raid groups to wipe on new content, yet allows an excellent raid leader to successfully pull pugs of inexperienced players through content he/she has already mastered.

    If we break down fight mechanics and execution, we can see that nearly every specific cause for raid failure falls under some combination of these two factors:

    1) tank-death: your tank usually dies for one of several reasons - inadequate survivability (execution), inadequate healing (execution), cascade death from loss of crowd-control (execution or maybe mechanics), lack of preparation for phase changes or special actions (mechanics), instant-kill effects (mechanics or execution), or stacked secondary effects like dots and debuffs (mechanics or maybe execution).

    2) healer-death: your healer usually dies for one of several reasons - poor aggro control (execution), splash damage (execution or maybe mechanics), loss of CC (execution or maybe mechanics), instant-kill effects (mechanics or execution) or over-squishy-ness (execution).

    3) key-player-death: sometimes a non-tank or non-healer dies which results in a very important responsibility not being performed. This could be a CC, interrupt, or corruption removal job. This could be the result of a poor understanding of mechanics or mistakes on execution, but if the raid can't adjust their tactics quickly to cover up for this loss, the typical result is that one of the above scenarios will then occur, resulting in a wipe.

    4) inadequate dps: in a dps race, groups usually fail for very few reasons not mentioned above - death of DPS (execution or mechanics) or inadequate dps despite no deaths (execution or maybe mechanics).

    When learning a new raid - a raid leader should attempt to choose a flexible group with high survivability. A flexible group will be able to perform most necessary jobs, while a survivable group will see more of each fight, and get to practice their responsibilities for longer before inevitable wipes. More knowledge and more practice equals quicker improvement.

    When attempting a well understood but difficult fight - a raid leader should consider the likelihood of each of the types of deaths mentioned above. He/she should then construct a group to best avoid those deaths. Veteran players who understand the fight and can help make calls and adjustments are very helpful here, as are players who can maintain their focus on their appointed jobs amidst the chaos of those calls and adjustments. Such valuable teammates may often be the best choice for raid spots, even if that creates a slightly sub-optimal class distribution, though not if the class imbalance seriously detracts from the group's ability to perform commonly used tactics.

    This approach is one reason why certain raid groups tend to be at the forefront of conquering new content. By building for survivability first, these groups learn the fights fast. Then, they adjust the class make-up of their group for each fight for their best chances at success.

    This approach also reveals many of the qualities good raid groups should strive for when tackling content that is new (or new to the group, at least): Take your very best players into a new raid first – those players who are best at individual classes, can analyze new fights most effectively, and are very good at multi-tasking. Since you don't know what classes will be best, bring at least one toon of each class, if you can. After that, choose survivability over anything else. Bring players who can (and are willing to) swap to other classes as necessary. There are no “mains” in diagnostic raid runs. Once you've gotten enough experience, custom-build your group for each fight. Again, certain players may not be able to play their preferred mains for a few weeks, but their patience will benefit the entire group. RLs should rotate these players onto their mains when the opportunity arises.

    A typical diagnostic raid group might be: Guard, Warden (Shield), Champ, Hunter, Burg (full CC), Captain (usually HoH), LM (full CC), RK (50/50), Minstrel in the first 9 spots. Building for survivability, you would then add another RK (full heals) or Minstrel, and maybe a second Captain (HoH or LoM) and Champ (for survivable dps and off-tanking).

    For a dps race, you might alter that group to: Warden (Spear), 2 x Champ, 2 x Hunter, 2 x Burg (dps & debuffs), 2 x Captain (LoM), LM (minimal CC), RK, Minstrel. Solo-tanking frees up a spot for an extra Burg for more debuffs and dps, while doubling up on LoM Captains allows for plenty of healing with a lot more dps. Obviously, the final group make-up will be dependent upon both the tactics needed and the toons available.

    So now that we've got the fundamentals of raid group-building down, we can begin to examine how to make the choice regarding the tank classes. As I stated in my introduction, I believe the popular position that Guardians are marginally superior to Wardens for raiding is due, in part, to an incomplete analysis of both the job of tanking and the relative strengths and weaknesses of the tank classes.

    Let's start by outlining the major strengths of each tank class relative to the other (given equivalent builds):

    Guardians:
    1. Stronger resistance to spike damage.
    2. Several snap-aggro skills.

    Wardens:
    1. Stronger self-heals and group heals.
    2. Better single-target and AoE threat generation; non-damaging threat leeches.

    There are other minor strengths for each class, but for the sake of simplicity, let's stick to these for now.

    Choosing a Tank for diagnostic raids:

    Since it's been well established that both Guards and Wardens can successfully tank any tanking job in the game, both are completely legitimate and viable options when putting together your raid group. As we can see from the above information, both tank classes have relative strengths. However, those strengths only become evident when the individual toons are played to the same degree of skill. Since it's preferable to build for group survivability, a raid leader should always choose his/her best tanks for diagnostic runs because better tanks, regardless of class, tend to help your group survive longer. Given a multitude of equal options, the best scenario is one of each tank class. This increases the group flexibility, maximizes the chance you'll have at least one optimal class for each tanking job, and minimizes the exposure of weaknesses in either class.

    Choosing a Tank for normal raids:

    Once you've run a few diagnostic raids and figured out the trash pulls and boss fights better, you can begin to choose your tanks based on the mechanics you know you'll be using and the relative strengths and weaknesses of the rest of your group. For instance, in high spike-damage situations, you may prefer to have your strongest Guardian tank it. In splash-damage fights, your Warden's Conviction becomes extremely helpful. In solo-target dps races, you may prefer a Spear Warden. In aggro-swapping scenarios, you may want Guard/Guard or Guard/Warden for easier aggro-swaps.

    The key here is to consider what your players can actually do in practice, not simply what their classes can do in theory. For instance, if your Spear Warden simply can't survive a dps-race because he's under-geared, or your healers are on the weak side, you should consider bringing a Shield Warden or Guard regardless of the drop in overall dps. Likewise, if your Warden/Warden tank team has no problem aggro-swapping cleanly, then you may want to keep them in for aggro-swapping fights despite the lack of any force taunts. Other considerations also apply, of course, but the bottom line remains the same – take the player(s) who give you the best chance of getting the job done. This is as true for healers, DPS, and CC classes as it is for tanks.

    Creating tactics to suit your raid:

    One of the biggest mistakes raid groups can make is not custom-fitting their fight tactics to their personnel. For instance, a raid with two RK healers will have different options than one with two Minstrel healers or one healer of each class. While Do Not Fall To (RK) and Rally (Minstrel) are commonly considered, the RK bubble and Minstrels' Song of the Dead are also important to think about. In a fight with multiple dead mobs, your LM's ability to CC is severely hampered. This can be countered by bringing two Minstrels who trait for Song of the Dead. Now your group will actually have better crowd control despite your LM being gimped. Likewise, Minstrels are often preferred over RKs in spike-damage situations because of their reactive healing style. However, raids rarely consider that if you have two RK healers who build for their damage resistance bubbles, that can significantly reduce both spike damage and compound damage levels on your tanks, and may be preferable for some fights.

    Other classes also have skills that are often neglected by raids, or players in general:

    * In a fight in which your tank is taking the vast majority of the damage, consider having your Captain swap out IDOME for Shield of the Dunedain. Your tank should be able to cap vitality anyway, and the loss of group stats may be less important than one emergency 15 second, 75% incoming damage reduction skill. Also, two Captains running IDOME is usually a waste.

    * LMs often trait The Ancient Master line in raids for the improved See All Ends. However, Continual Air Lore (despite the controversy) may provide more damage reduction, outgoing damage, and threat for your tank or champ in certain multi-mob or compound-damage fights.

    * Hunters traiting Trapper of Foes can become very effective at CC. A Trapper Hunter can make up for your LM's loss of CC in fights against dead or your Burg's loss of CC against beasts, or simply add CC options to your group.

    There are many skills like these, available to every class, that see very little play time. Most of this is due to the highly situational benefits of these skills. Most of the time the skills simply do not apply to the situation, therefore raid leaders may not even know the skills exist, unless they play those classes themselves. In addition, there are popular community-wide generalizations of which builds are “best” for each class in raids. Such generalizations fail to account for the great situational benefits of lesser-used skills, yet (for some reason) form the basis for many raiders' perceptions of each class. Good raiders should consider all their skills and help inform their raid leaders about how and when lesser known skills might be helpful to the raid. Good raid leaders should always be looking for the best combination of class skills and personnel, regardless of the popular opinion on “the way” to approach any given class or raid.

    In order to decide which tank class, if any, is superior, we need to discuss the two major responsibilities of any tank: aggro-control and survivability.

    Tank Job #1: Aggro-control

    If we review the most common causes for raid-wipes listed above, we can see that aggro-control is extremely important in preventing wipes. Properly controlling aggro is the first step in preventing the deaths of healers, dps, or other key players. Aggro control is one of the tank's main responsibilities, but in raid scenarios, that job is often shared among a number of other classes as well, most notably CC classes and off-tanks or ranged-tanks. Therefore, good raid leaders will consider a number of factors when designing tactics for aggro-control. Regarding the tanking classes, a raid leader must consider the faster snap-aggro skills of Guards along with the superior threat generation skills of Wardens. The number of Champions in the group will have a direct impact on this, as both their Challenge and Ebb/Rise Ire skills are excellent for helping a group's overall aggro-control.

    Here are some aggro-control tactics that can compensate for potential weaknesses in each tank class:

    *Weakness: Guards have less threat generation. Solution: Put your Champs in the same group and Ebb Ire onto the Guard to boost his threat. Burgs should provoke onto the Guard at every opportunity. This will allow your dps to hit full strength without concern for pulling aggro.

    *Weakness: Wardens have no snap-aggro skills. This can create a problem especially in the first 10 seconds of a fight. Solution: Have your Champ open with a Challenge. This will lock aggro onto him for the first 10 seconds. This should be more than enough time for the Warden to generate enough threat to have an aggro-lock and even get his/her buffs up. One Ebb Ire can solidify this lock if needed.

    *In multiple-mob pulls, such as OD Disease or Poison wings, make sure you have a Champ in your Warden's group. Instead of Ebbing Ire onto the Warden, the Champion should Rise Ire off of the healer (or CC players if needed). With the Champion leeching aggro from the healer, and the Warden leeching aggro from both the Champion and the healer, this is an excellent tactic for ensuring that the healers don't immediately have aggro if CC fails. Additionally, this tactic will be effective regardless of which CC'd mob breaks free, as both leeches effect the threat tables of all mobs in combat.

    *Note: The above tactics are for groups which have difficulties in the given scenarios. If your Guard generates enough threat to hold aggro against all DPS, the Ebb Ire and Provoke may not be needed. If you Warden is fast enough to lock aggro in 3 seconds and survives to get buffs up without any problem, then Challenge may likewise be unnecessary. If your CC never fails, don't worry about Rise Ire.

    Tank Job #2: Survivability

    Your tanks' survivability is extremely important, because the loss of your main-tank is perhaps the most likely of all deaths to actually cause a raid-wipe. This is because if someone else dies, there's usually time to rez that person before anything else bad can happen. If the main-tank dies, the result is often the loss of aggro-control, which can then quickly result in cascade death and raid-wipe. Remember, however, that survivability is second to aggro-control. If your tank cannot hold aggro, his/her survivability won't matter.

    Any tank's survivability is determined by a number of factors. One major factor is gear. It's of utmost importance to the entire raid that the main-tanks have the best gear available. For this reason, many raid groups will actually grant first choice of new loot drops to tanks. Another factor in tank survivability is healing. For this reason, healers also often get loot priority. A third factor, and one that often gets overlooked, is choosing your tank to suit the fight, and choosing your tactics to suit your tank.

    Here are some points to consider when choosing a tank:

    1. Most healers are more familiar with healing Guards. Such healers will often over-heal Wardens, at the expense of unnecessary power consumption on the part of both toons. RK players, more used to managing HoTs, can frequently adjust better and more quickly to healing Wardens. If this is an issue, consider having your Warden tank the majority of the pulls your group has already mastered in order to get the healers more experience healing Wardens. Once the healing for both tank classes is equal, you may find less difference between the two than you expected.

    2. Many Wardens have issues managing their power consumption. If your LM may experience frequent power-draw interrupts, or may just be overwhelmed with multi-tasking, a Guard may be a better choice unless your Warden is very good at managing his/her power.

    3. Fights with significant spike-damage favor Guards. Fights with significant compound-damage, such as OD poison wing, favor Wardens. However, you can compensate for having the less-optimal tanks in both situations. Pile on protections (like Advanced Song of Warding or RK bubbles) or debuffs (like 2-3 Disables) for your Warden in spike-damage situations. Counteract compound-damage with micro-heals like Revealing Mark or health-proc gear for your Guard. Or you can always over-heal for either class in non dps-races. These types of seemingly minor adjustments are what make it possible to solo-tank the Wound, Fear, and Poison bosses in OD regardless of tank class.


    The Issue of Tank-Death:

    Many proponents of the Majority Position hold that Guards are the superior tanking class due to their ability to recover aggro more quickly after being resurrected. While all players, Warden players included, know that Engage allows a Guard to re-establish aggro very quickly after a death, the idea that this one fact make Guards appreciably better is a flawed one.

    Any raid group should expect to wipe when progressing through new content. This means tanks will die. Superficially, this may seem to indicate that a tank who can recover from death quickly is better than one who can't. However, not all tanks deaths are equivalent. To judge which class is preferable in any given situation, we need to start by looking at the stages of raid progression. By my account, there are four basic stages:

    Stage 1 - you don't know anything about the fight you're in. Full diagnostic mode.
    Stage 2 - you know a little about the fight, such as if it's a spike-damage or compound-damage fight, and can adjust accordingly.
    Stage 3 - you know a great deal about the fight, and can probably construct a group make-up and tactic that play to your strengths.
    Stage 4 - you have the instance on farm and your tank class will no longer matter.

    By examining these four stages, we can see that while tank survivability is critical, tank-death recovery is a small consideration in the vast majority of situations.

    Stage 1 – we've already determined that building for both survivability and flexibility makes a Guard/Warden team the best during the diagnostic stage. Failing that combo, take your two most survivable tanks. Fights are learned piecemeal, and wipes come fast and furious. Tank-deaths will wipe the group more frequently than in some other stages, but recoveries simply don't happen often enough, or mean enough, to be a consideration.

    Stage 2 – now that you know something about the fight, you can begin to make an educated guess at some better tactics. One of these choices will involve which tank class to use. The primary factors are still aggro control and survivability. If one class will be better at one or both of those factors, any thoughts of tank-death recovery should take a back seat. Basically, choosing a tank because you expect him to die is a bad strategy. Choose the tank you think has the best chance to survive the longest while maintaining aggro control.

    Stage 3 – this is like an improved Stage 2. You know the fight and figured out the approach most likely to achieve success. At this point, your tank choice should be obvious. It's also possible that you have tanks of each class who you can succeed with. The chance of tank-death should be minimal if the group executes well.

    Stage 4 – if you're worried about tank-death, you don't have the instance on farm yet. Go back to Stage 3.

    In Stage 1, success isn't winning, but learning. Most learning comes prior to (and including) the initial cause of raid-wipe. Tank-death is only one of the four major causes of raid-wipe and it's often the least likely, simply due to the fact that the tank is the most survivable member of the raid and the healers know the tank must survive if at all possible. If your tank does die in Stage 1, rezzing him/her probably won't extend the fight in any appreciable sense, or allow people to learn any more than they would have due to the chaos of the impending raid-wipe.

    In a minority of cases in Stage 2, however, tank-death recovery will increase learning by allowing you to see more of a fight after the initial tank-death. This apparent benefit must be weighed against any loss of potential for tank-survival. What I mean is that if another tank would have initially survived the fight for 2 minutes longer, then extending the fight for 2 minutes after tank-death is actually a net loss, due to the loss of focused analysis while making recovery adjustments. In order for a net gain of learning, the post-recovery period must last somewhat longer than the alternative. Once that is factored in, the amount of any net gain accredited to Guards must account for the relative chances for Wardens to have recovered in the same situation.

    Even a fairly simple mathematical analysis of these considerations shows that the situation is much more complex than either the Majority or Minority positions can convey:

    Let's take the last trash pull in the poison wing as our example. There are four elite trolls that must be tanked or CC'd. There are also two goblins that must be accounted for, along with 4 to 5 thralls which drop acid puddles when they die and then respawn. Then there are the two big ghosts which summon the thralls, but don't factor into most of the fight. On top of all of this is the 2-person maximum platform restriction and the acid dot you get for standing in the water. This pull will basically require your raid to work very well together, and if any one person fails at his/her job, the result is likely a wipe.

    Let's assume that this pull is still fairly difficult for your raid group – Stage 2 or early Stage 3. Let's estimate your base chance of success is 40%, meaning you'll need an average of 2.5 pulls per run to clear it. For the sake of easier math, let's estimate that each cause of raid-wipe is equally likely, meaning your base 60% of failed pulls are evenly distributed among all causes, so you experience tank-death 15% of the time. Now we need to adjust for recoveries.

    First, let's assume that all recoveries are equally likely, meaning healer-death, tank-death, dps-death, and key-player-death (CC for this pull) can all be recovered from with equal probability. Since your initial chance of success is 40%, your chances of success after a death-recovery must be lower to account for the increased danger of a person temporarily not performing a necessary job. Let's estimate that death-recovery attempts are penalized by half, resulting in a 20% base chance of success. Now let's assume that your Warden and Guard are equally survivable in this fight, based on their gear, skill, and any tactical adjustments you might make. Finally, assume that Engage makes your Guard perfect on those recovery chances, while Wardens are only 20% effective.

    Yes, we're making a lot of assumptions here, mostly for the ease of the math, but you can see that a lot of factors enter into play, so this calculation is far more complex than most people make it out to be.

    Now, let's do the math:

    15% of the time, your group will experience tank-death. 20% of those times, a Guard tank will allow you to recover. A Warden will only allow you to recover 4% of those times. So...

    Increased chance of success with a Guard = 3% (15% tank-death chance x 20% recovery chance)
    Increased chance of success with a Warden = .6% (15% tank-death x 4% recovery)
    Benefit of running with a Guard over a Warden = 2.4 %

    What this basically means is that, given our estimates, you'd need to make roughly 42 pulls for your Guard to save you from a raid-wipe one more time than your Warden. I believe these estimates actually skew unreasonably toward the Guardian in this scenario, but I wanted to start off with conservative, easy to understand numbers. Now let's add some additional calculations to take the analysis up a notch.

    In my experience, loss of CC is the most likely cause of raid-wipe on this poison pull, with healer-death right behind. Tank-death is third, with loss of dps being negligible. So, let's redistribute the probability of each raid wipe to 5:3:2:0 (CC/Healer/Tank/DPS deaths).

    Now, let's consider how each tank class performs in this fight. It's difficult to determine which class is more survivable in this fight, as the trolls do significant (though not overwhelming) spike damage, and there are several sources of compound-damage – acid dots, trash mobs, troll AoE, thrall puddles. For the sake of illustrating a point, let's say that Guards are 10% more survivable in this fight, meaning a Guard will survive 10% of the events that would kill an equivalent Warden.

    Aside from the issue of survivability, we can see that with threat leeches, AoE threat, and Conviction group heals, Wardens have better tools for keeping the thralls off the healers, and are also better counters for the trolls' splash damage, acid dot damage, and acid puddle damage. Let's grant the Warden an 8% improved chance over the Guardian of preventing each of the other types of death (CC, Healer, and DPS).

    First, tank-death: Tank-death occurs at a base chance of 12% (60% base raid-wipe chance x 20% base tank-death cause chance). However, we're claiming that Guardians will survive 10% of the events that would kill a Warden. Therefore, Guardians will only die 10.8% of the time. The difference of 1.2% is the increased chance of non-death success with a Guardian.

    Recovery chance: A Warden will only recover from tank-death to defeat the pull .48% of the time (12% tank-death chance x 4% Warden recovery chance), while the Guard will recover 2.16% of the time (10.8% tank-death chance x 20% Guard recovery chance). The Guardian's recovery advantage = 1.68%.

    Now, healer and CC deaths: Wardens prevent 8% of those CC and healer deaths that a Guard doesn't. Therefore, Wardens gain a 2.4% success rate increase for preventing CC death (60% base raid-wipe chance x 50% CC-death cause x 8% prevention chance). The Warden then gains 1.44% for preventing healer-death (60% base raid-wipe x 30% healer-death cause x 8% prevention).

    Increased chance of success with a Guard = 2.88% (1.2% survivability bonus + 1.68% recovery bonus)
    Increased chance of success with a Warden = 3.84% (2.4% CC-death prevention bonus + 1.44% healer-death prevention bonus)
    Benefit of running with a Guard over a Warden = -.96%

    In this improved analysis, we see that our first conclusion was based on an inadequate consideration of all the factors. We now see that despite being significantly less survivable and having no force taunts, a Warden is actually the better Main Tank for this pull, though you need to see more than 100 pulls before perceiving any benefit.

    Additionally, as the success rate of your group increases, the difference between tanking classes diminishes. Basically, there's a peak somewhere between Stages 2 and 3 where tank differentiation matters the most. Even at this peak, the likely differences are extremely small.

    Now, it's easy to throw estimated percentages around, and there are countless different in-game scenarios. I'm not claiming these numbers apply to all cases, or are perfectly accurate for this one - they're just reasonable guestimates used to illustrate a point. The numbers are not actually important in the least. What IS important is that these estimated analyses clearly indicate that choosing your tank wisely requires a great deal of thought – far beyond the simple consideration of any one skill, no matter how central that skill. We also see that there are likely situations in which a Warden may increase your raid's chance of success despite being less survivable than a Guard in that same situation. Likewise, there may be situations in which a Warden is more survivable than a Guard, but the Guard is actually preferable due to those snap-aggro skills.

    All of this also supports the idea that tank teams must be considered equally carefully. Warden/Warden, Guard/Guard and Warden/Guard are each the best combination under different circumstances. The best raid groups will be the ones which identify those circumstances the most accurately, and swap their tanks and their tactics to optimize their chances for success in each fight.


    Conclusion:

    The inevitable conclusion here is that, given equal skill and gear, the overall difference between the success chances of raid groups with Guard main-tanks and Warden main-tanks is so small that you should always take the better player as your main-tank. Only worry about the class of tank when skill levels are equivalent, or the mechanics of the fight significantly favor one class, OR if your group simply works better with one class of tank.

    In the end, empirical evidence wins out over all this theory: if you win more with your Guard tank, it's because your Guard player is simply better than your available Warden players, or your group utilizes tactics that work better with Guards. If you succeed more with a Warden as your main-tank, it's for the exact same reasons. So, take the player that gets the job done the best, without regard to the class he/she is playing, because that's your best chance for success.
    10chars

    moarchars

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    336

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures

    Holy Great Wall of text Batman!!
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/home/character/1054335/146085512913891866/][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0820700000010321a/signature.png]Eryndar[/charsig][/url]
    Eryndar - 75 Warden / Jadwin - 75 Minstrel / Antrius - 75 Hunter / Saelethial - 66 Champion

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    1,025

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures

    I got a cramp in my finger from all the scrolling.
    Now someone needs to re-quote the quoter, i love to see when someone does that. GO
    [CENTER][URL="http://postimage.org/"][IMG]http://s5.postimg.org/oiz5srzbr/download_1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


    [COLOR=#ffffff][I][B]Only fools and dead men never change their mind[/B][/I][/COLOR][/CENTER]

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Munich, Germany
    Posts
    17

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures


    Why u no summarize!?


    Now I have to read this wall of text myself! :'(
    [CENTER][B][DE-RP] Belegaer[/B]
    [B]Kinship:[/B] [URL="http://www.amarthan.de"]Amarthan[/URL]
    [B]Characters:[/B] [I]Evjen[/I] - WA (or: One-Man-Phalanx) - L65 ||| [I]Kashin[/I] - BG - L65 ||| [I]Carthet[/I] - RK - L65 ||| [I]Eljylia[/I] - MN - L56[/CENTER]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    2,573

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures

    Psychedelic Reindeer via reddit.com



    That is all!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    North California
    Posts
    81

    Re: Awesome Stupid Pictures

    Well now that the thread was derailed, bring the awesome stupid stuff!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001349d9/signature.png]Ibaren[/charsig]

 

 

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