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  1. #1

    Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Doc Holiday conducted a great interview with various LoTRO developers which you can listen to here:

    http://docholidaymmo.com/2011/09/13/...-with-turbine/

    The most frustrating aspect of the interview for me was the announcement of the shelving of any Phase B revamp of the Legendary Item system. As a reminder of what Turbine promised in December,

    http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...-december-2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Kate “Nereid” Paiz
    * Next Steps with Legendary Items – We’re planning on doing two upgrades to Legendary Items next year – one in the Q1 release, and one later in the year. The goal is to respond to a bunch of your feedback and to incorporate some more versatility, flexibility and less randomness into the system. We’ll certainly be releasing a dev diary on the Q1 changes as we get into next year.
    Basically, what the Developers are saying now is that the dissatisfaction from the players over the LI system was largely addressed by Phase A and there is no reason to do a Phase B. I think they miss the fact that there is no point in complaining about the LI system when a Phase B is promised to be delivered- it's better to just wait and see what happens.

    I personally am sick of the continuous LI reboots. I find it ridiculous that a system that was supposed to "grow with you" has been turned on its head. They want us to reboot our items every update and grind for countless IXP, legacies, Delvings, Relics and Empowerments. They also want you to reboot in between updates by progressing from 3rd to 2nd to 1st Age items. And then decon the 1st Age for a 3rd all over again. I just keep coming back to the idea that no one deconned Glamdring.

    The biggest problem is that the LI system could be much better but unless there is a sufficient outcry from the player base it will never happen. So if you agree, let Turbine know. We expected another big revamp and we arent going to stop bitching until we get it.
    Adaaon (Minstrel), Gwydionn (Hunter), Tarrann (Burglar)
    [url]http://thenoldor.guildlaunch.com[/url]

  2. #2
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    This is no suprise to me at all and should not be a suprise for the majority of players, but I have my doubts about that one though. LOL

    Now, I take some popcorn and watch te 'entertainment' when the Turbine fanclub walks in.
    Last edited by Lotroien; Sep 14 2011 at 06:26 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    As a reminder of what Turbine promised in December,
    Your quote from Paiz says "we're planning on doing" and somehow you turn this into a "Turbine promised". How long until someone claims this is a lie? This is why every time someone says "Turbine promised" I just have to assume there's a lot of exaggeration and that there was no promise.

    I personally am sick of the continuous LI reboots.
    I'm not sick of the reboots. They're not really reboots after all just revamps and revisions, as the fundamental concepts haven't changed.

    But I am sick of LIs altogether. They're not fun. I am just ignoring them at the moment as they're not worth the time or headache. I have never used the "melding" tab and I don't have enough shards since the last change to even attempt it yet. At least with the old system we had a chance of getting multiple relics on combine if we got a critical; now if I get a critical I get one relic only and a tiny handful of pointless shards. Woohoo I got 6 shards on a crit, now I just need hundreds more to do anything!

    I ignore second ages. It's not worth the hassle. A second age with lousy legacies is useless (unless you're a hunter or champion and you only care about DPS). Slotting legacies scrolls just means you end up with tier 2 which is just plain awful, and grinding the huge number of empowerment scrolls is mind numbing and even worse if you've got multiple characters. It's easier to do things the original way - take the hordes of third ages you get and eventually over time you'll get one with the legacies you want. I wasted a symbol on a second age once and got trash out the back end with nothing to show for it except fewer mithril flakes. I've got level 65 chars who still don't have decent level 65 third ages.

    If you want good LI revamps here's what I would want:
    - Choice of legacies on initial identify! I don't want a burglar sword chock full of quiet knife legacies if I don't do quiet knife.
    - Make it easier to raise the tiers. On reforge give me a choice of one of two legacies OR raise the tier of one.
    - Don't make legacy scrolls give tier 2 always, if the original legacy was tier 6 then maybe let the scroll give tier 4.
    - What the heck is that melding junk? Dump it and give us back more relics to let us combine more and get to top tier faster.
    - Let us have actual stats on the weapons even if one handed.
    - Get rid of the constant deconstruction of LIs. If they're so legendary then why do we treat them worse than vendor trash? Thanks for the heirloom mom, I'm off to the forge to smash it to bits! Let's keep ONE LI and only replace it if we find one with some better base stats or we want to have an alternate. The deconning just screams generic MMO grind mechanic and destroys immersion and any feeling of being "legendary". If the level cap goes up then let us work to get the levels up instead of starting over from scratch.
    - Maybe let us do quests to improve it; maybe for the better stuff we have to go to 3 or 6 person instances to improve them. Don't worry, you can have a store option in here if you want.
    - Stop separating the various pieces into different categories. Let those level 50 runes and scrolls work on level 75 LIs!
    - Add legendary shields, instruments, and banners.

    In short, make LIs be fun. Grinds are not fun. I'm opting out of the grind here.

  4. #4
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Another promised feature that bites the dust. I was really excited about this one...

    I can't believe they are satisfied with current LI system. Well, I guess THEY are, but not the players.

    I have spent about 500g on them(counting just last 5 months), and bought about 3 relic removal scrolls. Ye, working for Turbine as intended. But me personally, I will never buy emp scroll or relic removal ever again.
    Farewell.

  5. #5
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    LIs are not fun. Whatever this melding thing is, I never got into it. There's no story involved. Barely interesting. Overly complex. Bleah.

    Some things only work up to this level, some things only work up to that level, some things (but never what I need when I need it) work regardless of level. Some items you get from this guy, some items you get from that guy, some items you have to go craft, some things you actually have to do with this npc over here. Some things you get back on decon, some things you lose on decon, some are bound, but wait, that's not bound, that you can buy on the AH for only 15g but this other thing you have to buy on the store.

    And I can't even begin to explain it to new folks. I think I need a diagram or someone to white board this for me.
    Last edited by Lurkerinthemist; Sep 14 2011 at 07:04 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Lotroien View Post
    Now, I take some popcorn and watch te 'entertainment' when the Turbine fanclub walks in.
    lol indeed *grabs crisps*

  7. #7

    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    I personally am sick of the continuous LI reboots. I find it ridiculous that a system that was supposed to "grow with you" has been turned on its head. They want us to reboot our items every update and grind for countless IXP, legacies, Delvings, Relics and Empowerments. They also want you to reboot in between updates by progressing from 3rd to 2nd to 1st Age items. And then decon the 1st Age for a 3rd all over again. I just keep coming back to the idea that no one deconned Glamdring.
    I doubt this change had any chance getting traction. The Legendary item system is part of the gear obsolescence concept. You can either get on the hamster wheel and spin it. Ignore the wheel. The wheel not going away.
    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    The biggest problem is that the LI system could be much better but unless there is a sufficient outcry from the player base it will never happen. So if you agree, let Turbine know. We expected another big revamp and we arent going to stop bitching until we get it.
    IMHO - Raising a ruckus is a waste of valuable key strokes. No matter how much I want it. Or how much anyone wants it. It is not going happen.

    There is too money involved. Turbine put all this legendary system support items - relic removal scrolls - legacy scrolls - relics including store only relics in the LOTRO store. Turbine not going to give up the drain on our Turbine Points balance. Or the dollars they get from folks buying Turbine Points.

    If there was no Lotro store - it might be doable because it only the potential loss of some subscription fees because customers finished their character growth versus the potential loss of some subscription fees because some customes had enough of replacing their legendary items.

    Final Thoughts - Like many other aspects of life. You have to accept it. You are not going to get what you wanted. Once you reach acceptance. You have make a command decision as to what to do about

    It can be difficult to realize you are a male sheep. You are butting a something like the Hoover Dam trying to break it. You are providing lots of amusement value for the spectators. You are not making any progress.
    Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Sep 14 2011 at 08:53 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Not surprising. Another terrible mechanic like Radiance. I would rather LIs be removed from the game altogether and teal items be brought back as in SoA.

    Since even before the WB buyout of Turbine, less and less attention has gone into any type of game development/progression.

    The game content and development is lacking. The entire engine is starting to get old and needs a major overhaul. This is evidenced by the fact that there's not enough room for any new skills in the quickslots. Instead we get skill consolidation and "improved" versions of old skills. You have one class developer handling two classes each.

    Mirkwood; no new skills just "improved" versions of skills we got 2+ years ago.

    RoI; same "improved" versions of skills again.

    This game needs an influx of new money to remain relevant. Is WB going to step up?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/062050000000916a6/01007/signature.png]Redrider[/charsig]

  9. #9

    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    The entire engine is starting to get old and needs a major overhaul.

    Here Here!! I've said this for the last 2 years. We have servers over 4 years old STRAINING to keep up to the game. (Example: Tonight in the Ettenmoors On Arkenstone at 9:32pm a large grp of creeps and freeps colided. Before the collison took place both sides began clipping and lagging.<I asked after the fact> and BOTH sides had numerous raid members either lag out, lag lock, or completely freeze up). Fun.

    Turbines response would be "You should report this" or may peronal favorite "The lags not on OUR side, it must be on YOUR side, our servers are constantly updated to use the most recent parts".

    The most recent parts? Parts? Wow, that sounds....piecemeal. Parts. Yeesh...

    Anyway, with Swtors launch and their use of both FULL voice and new software to handle it...Turbine and Blizzard will eithe have to step up and join the new age or go the way of Text MMOs (anyone recall Gemstone? or Dragonrealms?). Yeah. Didn't think so.

    With the explosion of the f2p Reavers hitting the Moors in 12 days...the lag sure as Saurons underpants won't get any better.

    Hmm. Turbine/ WB you may wanna get some of them new "parts' for this...
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  10. #10

    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    Raising a ruckus is a waste of valuable key strokes. No matter how much I want it. Or how much anyone wants it. It is not going happen.... You have to accept it. You are not going to get what you wanted. Once you reach acceptance. You have make a command decision as to what to do about....It can be difficult to realize you are a male sheep. You are butting a something like the Hoover Dam trying to break it. You are providing lots of amusement value for the spectators. You are not making any progress.
    Not sure why you would say this when the Phase A changes to the LI system were the direct result of player complaints about the system. This was even explicitly acknowledged by the Devs. So your little lecture to "just take it" is founded on a completely false premise. Now that's what I call "a waste of valuable key strokes."

    You make it sound like nothing changes in the game. That's ridiculous. Things change all the time. The point is to impress upon the Devs what changes are important to us so they get prioritized in the queue. I think frustration with the LI system is a huge piece of that which needs to be communicated.
    Adaaon (Minstrel), Gwydionn (Hunter), Tarrann (Burglar)
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  11. #11
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    All i hear from people complaining about LIs is "I want the best item possible but I don't want to put in any real effort".

    I'm of the opinion that I like to have something that I'm able to put in effort for and see a reward. For the reward to have meaning, you have to have used effort to reach it or else it's just not fun. LIs are one of the few things at end game where that is true at the moment. I can really set a goal, have a customised, personal goal and go out and reach that goal. There's lots of things I have to do to reach that goal - instances/skirmishes to get the base materials for my item, level up a craft skill or find a helpful kinmate to make the item, instances/skirmishes/various repeatable quests to get relics and IXP runes to level up the item, grinding random landscape mobs (or AH camping) to get L61+ LIs with the right legacies, more IXP rune hunting to level those up to 30 to get the right legacies, instances/skirmishes to get emp scrolls, crafting and repeatable quests on multiple toons to get shards... and at the end of the day I've got a real improvement to my character to show for it.

    I've done multiple different activities - every step of the way has a combination of various solo and group activities to reach the goal - over a period of time and at the end of the day I have some real character progression. Yes, I'll have to do that again with the new level cap but that's the point isn't it? If I could just transform my existing weapon into +10 levels then I don't need to do any more work to get an increase in power, it's just handed to me on a platter.

    People just use the derogatory term grind to describe this because they're lazy imo.

    Process + payoff = satisfying progression. Getting progression handed to you with minimal effort (which at the end of the day is what everyone seems to be asking for) actually takes away the fun of that goal.
    [url=http://docholidaymmo.com/tag/lore-mastery/]Lore-mastery[/url] - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.

  12. #12
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Redrider. View Post
    The entire engine is starting to get old and needs a major overhaul. This is evidenced by the fact that there's not enough room for any new skills in the quickslots. Instead we get skill consolidation and "improved" versions of old skills.
    This is not an effect of having fewer resources or getting old. This game has TONS of skills compared to many other MMOs. WoW is the most popular and it does not have this abundance of skills; most of their skills are "improved" versions since their skills don't automatically increase in power as you level. Ie, you have the level 20 melee attack that's strong at level 20 but is not so great at level 29, but then you hit level 30 and you buy a skill to get the "improved" level 30 attack. This way they end up with fewer quick slots, typically just one row per role. This style is common in several MMOs I've been on and none I've been in had nearly as many as this game. Another example is Guild Wars, you get lots of skills but can only slot and use 8(?) total so you have to decide before leaving town which ones you will need.

    So consolidating the skills is a good thing since it is what many players want. Some classes have all 6 bars FULL and there's no room for more, or they've decided to just take some skills off the quick slots (ie, out-of-combat rezzes require searching through skill lists to use so that the quickslot can be used for something more important). You still get the periodic improvement for the pat-on-the-back feedback just like other MMOs but without having something too complicated.

  13. #13
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by brunnhilda View Post
    We have servers over 4 years old STRAINING to keep up to the game.
    The machines being used are not all 4 years old. They do upgrade the machines and get new ones, and they did a big upgrade last year to prepare for F2P.

  14. #14
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    Process + payoff = satisfying progression. Getting progression handed to you with minimal effort (which at the end of the day is what everyone seems to be asking for) actually takes away the fun of that goal.
    To me "grind" is mindless repetition. Killing 300 wolves that are not a part of any quest or story line, you kill them over and over with absolutely no in-game reason to do so.

    I agree that we shouldn't get something for "minimal" effort. But grinding is also minimal effort, it just takes lots of time. It's boring effort. I'd rather do quests. Getting a reward from a quest is not a reward for minimal effort. This is a game and therefore should be fun. In real life it makes sense to do tedious tasks because that's real life; but we're playing games to escape from real life not to just repeat the boring day at the office only with a middle earth theme. Why pay to be bored?

    So I don't grind the LIs because they're boring and this ruins my enjoyment of the game. Of course some players may like this, they idea of fun may be to make some small numbers on the screen get larger or to prove that they're better than other players, or to reach a point where they can enter some sort of exclusive club. Just don't expect all players to play the game the same way.

  15. #15
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    Cool Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by brunnhilda View Post
    Turbine and Blizzard will either have to step up and join the new age or go the way of Text MMOs (anyone recall Gemstone? or Dragonrealms?). Yeah. Didn't think so.
    Oh my gosh... Gemstone3! I so miss those days, I really do. Tons of reading, imagining, and World's best Typing Tutor (healers had a crud load of commands/spells)... EVAH! (and yes DragonRealms was good too, but I could only play one or the other moneywise/attentionspan back then.) Made friends with the kookiest bunch of RP'rs this side of River's Rest...
    +rep for the happy memories.

    PS. I know I long for decent teal non-LI Loremaster Staves (just make sure to stick a 5 second Staffstrike cooldown innate'ness to them, and I'll be downright happy.)
    Last edited by Griffy; Sep 15 2011 at 12:23 AM.
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    no part of the list I described above involves killing 300 wolves. There is no forced, sensless, grind.

    To build LIs in the current game, you can run end game group content (eg. the in your absence instances which all give out an excellent number of IXP runes/relics along with the tokens to get you empowerment scrolls), you run skirmishes as desired if you can't/don't want to group, you can do daily repeatable quests in mirkwood and enedwaith and you can do older repeatable quests in the crafting instances or the bounty/shard quests. It caters for a wide variety of playstyles and lets you get a longer term reward for content which is reasonably enjoyable on its own any way. And if you can't/don't want to put in that longer term effort then np - you can play the game perfectly fine without fully optimised LIs, or you can use the store to shortcut the grind. The current system absolutely supports different playstyles - if you want to min/max, you can work on your weapons and do that. if you don't, you don't have to and can still be pretty effective.

    I agree with the devs in the Docholliday interview. Now that you have full customisation through legacy scrolls, LIs are in a perfectly fine place in the game atm.
    Last edited by PsychobabbleJJ; Sep 15 2011 at 12:50 AM.
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  17. #17

    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ View Post
    I agree with the devs in the Docholliday interview. Now that you have full customisation through legacy scrolls, LIs are in a perfectly fine place in the game atm.
    Actually one of the biggest problems I have with LIs at the moment is that you do not have full customization. For some classes getting an item with only three major legacies makes it a borderline useless item. As a Captain a first age class slot item for me with only three major legacies is worse than a third age item with 5 major legacies (significantly). I know it's like that for other classes as well. Why do we still rely on chance to get the number of major legacies we want? This is absurd.

    Another problem with legendary items is that they just don't feel like legendary items. The amount of times you replace your "legendary" item is ridiculous. When Isengard comes out it will most likely be something like this for most players; 67 item -> 69 -> 71 -> 73 -> 75 third age -> 75 second age -> 75 first age. Seven items. That's not even including the hundreds you'll go through to get the scrolls and runes. This also happened from ~45-65. Yeah, these really feel "legendary".

    Also, as a captain I have four legendary items on me all the time. My two main ones, and then some for buffing. Why is it that my two main legendary items aren't even legendary enough to be used to buff with? "I will destroy you with Glamdring. Oh wait, let me just set it down and use a different weapon to cast a spell for a second. Ok.. NOW I'm ready to destroy you!" I'm sure other classes have this as well. Bottom line is that they don't feel legendary.

    Another gripe I have is how legendary items have destroyed what has been (in almost every RPG ever) one of the most enjoyable feelings of character progression - upgrading your weapon (or getting a new one). It used to be the case that when a weapon dropped everyone would pretty much say, "sweet, a weapon!". Now when a weapon drops (even if it's teal) people basically say, "aww damnit, a weapon?", shortly before just leaving the item on the corpse or looting it just to sell it. I dread weapon drops when seeing bosses killed. (I know some classes dual-wield and look forward to the drops but it's not the same feeling when it's going to your offhand.) This should not be the case.

    Now, you do upgrade your LIs, and you do get new ones (oddly enough) but it's just not a fun process. The upgrades are so incremental and tedious that it just becomes a dull chore; and even when you do upgrade it you're essentially starting over on the new item.

    I have other problems with LIs but these are the main ones. For the people wondering about why Turbine went back on what they said, and why LIs are like they are, I agree with you, but I think you're being incredibly naive. They are like this (and won't be changing) for one reason. Money. They fit in with Turbine's greedy nature perfectly. They involve the store, and are a huge grind. Exactly as they want. This is an important point, and I think a lot people wondering why LIs aren't changing should think about it before they keep wondering.

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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    It's a bit sad, really, that LotrO has only ever had one legendary First Age weapon. It was called Iorchathol and was as rare as could be, but getting one made the wait worth it. But I've come to accept this at this point.

    I'm somewhat puzzled by Turbine's apparant contention with the current system. The shard system in particular is so unreasonably grindy it's about broken in my eyes, especially given the fact that you lose all your work several times a year!

    With the Ettenmoors relic-grind option going away, I'm rather worried about future Shard acquisition. They meant to decrease the relic-grind, but they actually increased it, tenfolds.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    I keep a glimmer of hope that the new PVMP cloaks that rank with you might lead to a true levels with you LI system.
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  20. #20

    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Redrider. View Post
    This game needs an influx of new money to remain relevant. Is WB going to step up?
    Warner Brothers will provide the money when Turbine makes a good business presentation explaining how Warner Brothers will get all that money back via increased revenue. Plus a tidy bonus called Return On Investment. Warner Brothers has limited funds. No doubt they are getting proposals for the next new movie. New game. New merchandise. Updates to ... The money will go to the projects that have the best accounting numbers.

    One thing that Turbine needs to do is release a new game. It has been four years. Turbine does not release a new product in the reasonable future. Turbine will end up in the trash can along with millions of other companies that failed to create new products and remain relevant. I am sure there is seat near the Buggy Whip makers for Turbine if they do not do something new.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  21. #21

    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Vukuz View Post
    Why is it that my two main legendary items aren't even legendary enough to be used to buff with? "I will destroy you with Glamdring. Oh wait, let me just set it down and use a different weapon to cast a spell for a second. Ok.. NOW I'm ready to destroy you!" I'm sure other classes have this as well.
    This situation is unique to Captains. I do not know of any other class that works this way.

    Some classes have spec line items. Rune Keepers come to mind. I am going to the bard to trait healing. Equip my healing items. Or the Rune Keeper going to trait for damage. Equip the damage items. A Rune Keeper could in an emergency switch items. Begin attuning the other way. I do not know if Rune Keepers do this normally. Or if it is more a desperation move because the Minstrel went down.

    You got a Damage spec Minstrel in War Speech. You have to switch to healing. You do not heal very well at all.
    Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Sep 15 2011 at 12:29 PM.
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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    [QUOTE=brunnhilda;5682681]With the explosion of the f2p Reavers hitting the Moors in 12 days...the lag sure as Saurons underpants won't get any better.
    QUOTE]

    Bit off tangent, but if anyone log in and play a f2preaver on the launch day they are going to be terribly, terribly bored fast with no lvl 75 freeps to play with.

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    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    a couple of statements to address.

    1.) "the system is broken."
    my only problem anymore with the LI system is that you have to trash it at expansions. That SHOULD NOT BE. I will detest that til the day I die.

    But i think thats the only problem left.
    You can keep one LI forever (til the next expansion) because theres so much customization possible now.
    The only random variables left are the initial passives on the item, and the major/minor chance at reforges
    Any LI can be taken as is and turned into exactly what you want. All it takes is time.
    Getting your perfect weapon should take time and work. (A grind is ok with me as long as I have exactly what I want at the end of it.)

    Someone was mentioning before, their aversion to the melding system. Actually I think its great.
    Being able to get exactly the relic you want is a good thing. Dont you remember how it was at first? ugh

    2.) "I decon tons of them. These are what they call legendary?!"
    No.
    Legendary items are not meant to be legendary when you get them.
    They have the POTENTIAL to become legendary through your adventures.
    Deconning a bunch right away shouldnt be a huge issue.. theyre meant to be insignificant when you find them.
    Its the player that makes them legendary.
    Again, (..and again,) ill point out: They are not supposed to be legendary when you find them.

    3.) "Its all just one big grind."
    dont like the grind? DONT GRIND. Just. play. Have the LI in your hand or in your bag, and just play the game.
    They'll develop by themselves through most of the things you do.
    Yup, they do, in fact, grow with you. No grind needed. just patience. Ignore them until they need reforging.
    _________

    but again, unfortunately you do have to trash them eventually. And i curse Turbines name for it. It is just WRONG. They want you to spend more time on it? fine. give it the potential to be raised higher through a lot of work. dont obsolete it!

    Other than that, though, the LI system is in a fine place now.
    Last edited by elvyen; Sep 15 2011 at 01:29 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b00000001a9c5/01007/signature.png]Elviendur[/charsig]
    [COLOR="Silver"][SIZE="1"]"And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this earth; and many of the children of Illuvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen"[/SIZE][/color]

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Laurelin
    Posts
    334

    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    Quote Originally Posted by elvyen View Post
    a couple of statements to address.
    I cant quite agree with your opinions. True to my form, Ill address one and one point.

    1.) "the system is broken."
    my only problem anymore with the LI system is that you have to trash it at expansions. That SHOULD NOT BE. I will detest that til the day I die.

    But i think thats the only problem left.
    You can keep one LI forever (til the next expansion) because theres so much customization possible now.
    The only random variables left are the initial passives on the item, and the major/minor chance at reforges
    Any LI can be taken as is and turned into exactly what you want. All it takes is time.
    Getting your perfect weapon should take time and work. (A grind is ok with me as long as I have exactly what I want at the end of it.)

    Someone was mentioning before, their aversion to the melding system. Actually I think its great.
    Being able to get exactly the relic you want is a good thing. Dont you remember how it was at first? ugh
    Im fine with replacing LI when levelcap goes up. Frankly we get expansions so slow that our developed LI have far too long longevity. However, the major/minor legacy problematique is the heart of the problem with the legendary item system. For a final item you would desire 5-6 major legacies for your perfect item. Very few see this happen on anything better than 3rd agers (through random luck due to high volume of items being processed).
    The system is still a painful lottery because for the one item you want to have, you have to put in so many attempts to get as a 3rd ager. And you certainly want it as a 2nd ager, but the odds for majors on reforge seem to be the same on all ages.
    And I suppose its a reasonable assumption that everyone will over time get many many levelcap LI of their class to burn through, but not many 2nd agers and 1st agers would be rare even if you raid. The odds do not favor a great 1st age item, it favors a 3rd age.
    By eliminating first the chance that undesirable pool b legacies showed up on ID by forcing ID to only give major(pool a) legacies, and then fixing the number of legacies on ID to 3 instead of 2-3-4, the the initial randomness has been fixed. This is the only thing that works as intended (well, desired) with the system.
    By allowing us to extract legacies from items that is at least level 30, we got closer to full control of our items.
    Until we are able to overwrite minor legacies with major ones, the system is broken. Major legacies is desirable, minor ones is usually not. I wont push for a "get rid of minor legacies" on ID as the minor ones can at times be useful for an item (switch item and so on), because removing the artifical barrier on upgrading from minor to major legacy would completely fix the LI system with only one easy tweak on the legacy part. (I think its easy, at least: afterall, you can overwrite a major with a minor so the code is certainly in the game).

    2.) "I decon tons of them. These are what they call legendary?!"
    No.
    Legendary items are not meant to be legendary when you get them.
    They have the POTENTIAL to become legendary through your adventures.
    Deconning a bunch right away shouldnt be a huge issue.. theyre meant to be insignificant when you find them.
    Its the player that makes them legendary.
    Again, (..and again,) ill point out: They are not supposed to be legendary when you find them.
    I dont subscribe to your view on it, although I certainly agree what you say is in effect. When I get a "Reshaped Champion Sword of the First Age" I dont expect vendor trash. When I get a 3rd ager I expect something I can use until I get lucky and get 2nd agers, I dont want to experience disappointment after disappointment with no way to get more majors on it.
    A legendary item when you get it regardless of age is a blank, an item to be refined. When you are done levelling it up to level 70, it should be Legendary. But with the current problems with major/minor legs nonupgradeablity it will rarely be.
    This means that I cant agree with your assertion that the player makes them legendary - luck of a roll does. Still.

    3.) "Its all just one big grind."
    dont like the grind? DONT GRIND. Just. play. Have the LI in your hand or in your bag, and just play the game.
    They'll develop by themselves through most of the things you do.
    Yup, they do, in fact, grow with you. No grind needed. just patience. Ignore them until they need reforging.
    _________
    Couple things. Those who care about the LI system arent subscribing to the "dont grind then" strategy you suggest.
    Accepting the first set of legacies you get on your item and using that is, well, a fairly easy way to gimp your toon in a major way. Major legacies are the ones that really tune your skills into something more potent. Minor legacies is termed "situational, less desirable" (well, I use that phrase about them for sure).
    Happygolucky development of the items will result in a random chaotic item that is not enhancing your role in a coherent way.
    Most people want the LI to be good afterall. Suggesting that the development be left to its own random devices is not very efficent in any regard. Grind for new legacy scrolls, empower, delving, title and relics ensues.
    Avoiding the grind is quite ok, if you like a subpar item, or have no intention of doing anything but solo content/rp.

    As a previous poster here (Ruintheliel) stated, the shard system and melding added a tenfold increase in the grind.
    I quite agree: the number of relic tiers and how many relics were required to produce a cap tier relic was reduced.
    However the complete initial lack of crits coupled with the overall inferiority of the new relics completely voided the change as a improvement in my opinion.
    We must presume T6 relic is the new "cap tier" as T9 was, and the T6 relics is fairly disappointing compared to the old ones, especially on the runes.
    Thus we got the option to meld new superior relics with T2, T4 and T6 relics. And later we were so blessed to get "True rune/gem/setting" as well.

    The first problem was that the shard aquisition rate by deconning relics is very low. First off, higher tier relics yield less shards on refine than a lower relic, when you consider each relics worth in tier 1 relics.
    A T1 relic yields 1 shard. In T1 equivalents, this means 1 T1relic pr shard
    A T6 relic yields 192 shards. Its the equivalent of 720 T1 relics. Which translates into 3.75 T1 relics pr shard, or 26.6% kickback compared to a T1 refine.

    Second problem was, the number of quality relics needed to be refined to produce a sum of shards that is sufficent to give you 6 True relics (1392 each) for one set of weapon and class LI is so high that the number of T6 relics needed to be refined would deplete most players relic pool for quite some time.

    I think its a lot more grind and this is rather ironic as the purported purpose of the relic revamp was to reduce the grind. I believe if we dig in the dev diaries that will be stated clearly..

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie Columbus
    So, how did we reduce randomness? The number of relics required to combine has gone down for higher tiers, and we replaced the “critical combinations” with a chance to gain Shards (more on those later! I swear!) The old critical combinations gave players a chance to get relics of a higher tier than the one they were combining towards. While good in theory, getting unlucky streaks of missing too many critical combinations could cause tier 9 relics to feel very far away. Now, it’s a much faster and consistent trip up to top tier. Additionally, Melding (I really, truly promise that I will tell you more later!) allows tiered relics to be changed into exactly the relic you wanted of the same tier.
    All if it here

    but again, unfortunately you do have to trash them eventually. And i curse Turbines name for it. It is just WRONG. They want you to spend more time on it? fine. give it the potential to be raised higher through a lot of work. dont obsolete it!

    Other than that, though, the LI system is in a fine place now.
    I find this part to be something to expect, and accept it. We do upgrade all other equip when we get many levels raised.
    Well, the level 58-60 moria set was in widespread use and still is at 65 now though. Itemization error I suppose.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,550

    Re: Turbine cancels Phase B of Legendary Item Revamp

    To be quite honest, their obviously very limited time for development might be better spent elsewhere. There's code that is in more need of polishing in areas that would have more impact on game fun. I don't think the update B changes would have given LIs a decisive push towards more fun.

    This isn't considering the question where all the great money they claim to have made on f2p (at least for a couple months) is going if not into developers...

 

 
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