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  1. #51
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorietta View Post
    I looked at Mysterion's screen shots of a Warden with full defensive self-buffs and a Guardian with Guardian's Ward up. That's the best data I have. For the sake of this evaluation of partials etc. I made the assumptions that we're dealing with common damage and that there is an additive effect between Partial <something> Reduction % and Common Mitigation %.

    Warden:
    Common Mitigation: 49.9%
    Block: 25.0%, PB: 10.0%, PBR: 55.0%
    Evade: 20.0%, PE: 7.7%, PER: 55.0%
    Parry: 19.8%, PP: 7.6%, PPR: 75.0%
    All partials get absorbed.

    In 90.1% of all attacks the Warden takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 5.0% of all incoming damage.

    Guardian:
    Common Mitigation: 66.8%
    Block: 25.0%, PB: 12.8%, PBR: 62.5%
    Evade: 5.1%, PE: 2.2%, PER: 47.1%
    Parry: 17.8%, PP: 9.0%, PPR: 75.0%
    All partials get absorbed.

    In 71.9% of all attacks the Guardian takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 9.3% of all incoming damage.

    So your conclusion seems to hold up based on these numbers, Wardens do in fact take less damage than Guardians on average, though they are of course still susceptible to spike damage.

    I don't know how Partials get affected by Finesse but if they don't - at all - we can play with the idea of simply reducing the avoidances as one lump as all partials are absorbed by both classes. Thus using the "popular" 9% Finesse we get:

    Wardens:
    In 81.1% of all attacks the Warden takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 9.5% of all incoming damage. That's up by 4.5% (or a 90% increase which is a silly number to use in this context as absolute numbers make more sense).

    Guardians:
    In 62.9% of all attacks the Guardian takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 12.3% of all incoming damage. That's up by 3.0% (or a 32% relative increase).

    My conclusion:
    Yes, the Warden does get hurt more defensively than the Guardian by Finesse. However, if the data samples are representative, the assumptions hold, and my calculations are correct, the Warden is still in a very nice place in RoI. It could be argued that the difference is made up by the Warden's greater susceptibility to spike damage.

    It would require about 25% Finesse to make Guardians and Wardens take equal amounts of expected damage at which point they will take about 17.5% damage (and the Guardians will have serious trouble getting block and parry responses).
    Currently the amount of damage you take is (I think):
    X*(1-common/fire/etc)*(1-melee/ranged/tactical)

    Is melee/ranged/tactical being removed? I thought that was what the physical/tactical numbers in RoI meant, but maybe I've misunderstood.



    Other than that (which doesn't make a huge difference anyway) I don't know why Wardens would feel squishy. Either its just in people's heads , or there's been some kind of behind the scenes mechanic change like making avoidances now multiplicative instead of additive (easy to test with combat analysis if you're feeling bored Myst).
    Last edited by Evendale; Sep 11 2011 at 07:04 AM.
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  2. #52
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    Currently the amount of damage you take is (I think):
    X*(1-common/fire/etc)*(1-melee/ranged/tactical)

    Is melee/ranged/tactical being removed? I thought that was what the physical/tactical numbers in RoI meant, but maybe I've misunderstood.



    Other than that (which doesn't make a huge difference anyway) I don't know why Wardens would feel squishy. Either its just in people's heads , or there's been some kind of behind the scenes mechanic change like making avoidances now multiplicative instead of additive (easy to test with combat analysis if you're feeling bored Myst).
    Melee and Ranged are combined into physical mitigation. Tactical mitigation is still separate. Hmm, I think CA was broken in beta. I doubt I'll get that bored, especially with all the NFL games today.

  3. #53
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Now that we all seem to have reached a general understanding that Finesse does not hurt Wardens more than Guardians in the Tanking Damage portion of our roles we should focus our attention to the real issue.

    I will be using 65 numbers for BPE against 65 mobs as we have been given the absolute values for old and new caps. Not I'm not even going to touch the math until we get a little more clarity from the devs about how overcapping works against the new Finesse.

    It takes 4550 Block Rating to achieve 15% Block. It takes 8850 Block Rating to achieve 25% Block. That's a 4300 Rating difference just for 10%.

    Lets give our theoretical Warden the max possible Avoidance so 25/25/25.

    Under the old Finesse (lets assume 8850 even though that's prohibitively high) it detracts 2950 from each rating but thanks to DR we wont be suffering too badly (this gets even better with a larger rating gap between classes). It probably takes off around ~5% so we're left with 20/20/20.

    Under the new Finesse (still assuming 8850 or 25% even though that's prohibitively high) it detracts 25% off of our total 75% or 8.33% so we're left with 16.67/16.67/16.67.

    That puts almost straight back to the old cap so we effectively lost ~4000 rating (or 12000 total BPE rating). This gets worse when there is more rating required.

    The amount of stats allocated plus the time spent building and executing defensive gambits to reach the perfect 25/25/25 is incredibly steep and then we effectively consider half of it useless. This gets worse with more rating required.

    Compare this to mitigation which has nothing to reduce it (and its primary opponent, Offense, suffers from DR as well), is completely passive/requires little upkeep, and handles spike damage/hate from the Random Number God the most effectively and you start to see disparity.

    tl;dr Finesse hurts Wardens because it makes their investments in BPE increasingly worthless the higher their BPE.

    Feel free to dispute this or add some effective math to it or whatnot.


    Side Note: I wonder if Finesse being a percentage before application hits a Guardian's stance bonuses. If it does then Guardians lost some advantage but still should suffer less due to not needing as high a total BPE.

    Disclaimer: I may come back to this post and ninja edit it if I feel that the views presented were inefficient.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    It takes 4550 Block Rating to achieve 15% Block. It takes 8850 Block Rating to achieve 25% Block. That's a 4300 Rating difference just for 10%.

    Lets give our theoretical Warden the max possible Avoidance so 25/25/25.

    Under the old Finesse (lets assume 8850 even though that's prohibitively high) it detracts 2950 from each rating but thanks to DR we wont be suffering too badly (this gets even better with a larger rating gap between classes). It probably takes off around ~5% so we're left with 20/20/20.
    it's astonishing how you can talk about 10% being equal to 4300 rating past 15% and then say that 2950 subtracted rating of each avoidance would result in a measly 5%

    i know you didn't want to touch the math .. but you've been poking at it with a stick here :P

    according to the avoidance equation you'd need 9900 rating to reach 25% at level 75 and 5250 to reach 15% (no reason to believe they're gonna change how the percentages are calculated)
    now if we assume finesse uses the same equation (crit rating and offense rating do aswell) and we have the full 25% finesse (i.e. 9900 rating) with the old system we get a reduction of 3300 rating per avoidance which means the avoidances will then sit at 18,1% each

    so yeah we have 18.1% with the old system and 16.6% with the new system i.e. a difference of 1.5% -> 4.5% in total.. not really a deal breaker considering our avoidances are still better than in the current live and that enemies with 25% finesse should be extremely rare.. if they exist at all


    what i'm eager to know is whether on players that only have 2 types of avoidance (parry/evade) the finesse rating will still be split in 3 with the block reduction having no effect or whether it will be split in 2 and applied to parry/evade...
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Sep 11 2011 at 05:11 PM.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    it's astonishing how you can talk about 10% being equal to 4300 rating past 15% and then say that 2950 subtracted rating of each avoidance would result in a measly 5%

    i know you didn't want to touch the math .. but you've been poking at it with a stick here :P
    Diminishing Returns. The more invested, the less returned. If it was linear scaling (for the longest time I thought it was) then you would be right. In fact I could probably say that 5% is smaller than it really is and that I was being generous.

    The math was actually figuring out how much was taken off. There's a big difference between poking with a stick and grappling with a bear.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    according to the avoidance equation you'd need 9900 rating to reach 25% at level 75 and 5250 to reach 15% (no reason to believe they're gonna change how the percentages are calculated)
    now if we assume finesse uses the same equation (crit rating and offense rating do aswell) and we have the full 25% finesse (i.e. 9900 rating) with the old system we get a reduction of 3300 rating per avoidance which means the avoidances will then sit at 18,1% each
    It's actually ~11k to reach 25% at 75. I believe Graal mentioned that the formula was changed to better reflect the Diminishing Returns. Offense Ratings have an entirely separate formula since their effective caps are well over critical ratings (at 65 its ~10k (30%) vs 4550 (15%) and the new Offense cap is 50%).

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    so yeah we have 18.1% with the old system and 16.6% with the new system i.e. a difference of 1.5% -> 4.5% in total.. not really a deal breaker considering our avoidances are still better than in the current live and that enemies with 25% finesse should be extremely rare.. if they exist at all
    Of course mobs with that much Finesse should be rare (maybe the Dragon) but you're still missing the point. Let me reiterate "Finesse generally hurts Wardens and Guardians equally in survivability* but it will hurt the more avoidance based class more because it will render huge sums of rating useless."

    Just at 65 (since I'm still sure that I have hard numbers for it) it's a lot easier to lose 8850 from my 26550 combined BPE rating than it is to lose ~12000 (~4k rating doesn't come cheap when we're pushing that much rating in the first place).



    And yes it should be impossible to push that much BPE and Finesse at 65. I only chose that level because there are hard numbers for it.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by mikas131 View Post
    Now that we all seem to have reached a general understanding that Finesse does not hurt Wardens more than Guardians in the Tanking Damage portion of our roles we should focus our attention to the real issue.
    Not sure how you reached that conclusion?

    I thought the consensus was that Finesse hurts Wardens more than Guardians in the survival part but that Wardens are probably still okay in spite of this. At least that's what I've posted and read (except from some maths-challenged people in various threads spread around the forums ).
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  7. #57
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by mikas131 View Post
    In fact I could probably say that 5% is smaller than it really is and that I was being generous.
    quite a bit smaller which was the point i was trying to make actually



    It's actually ~11k to reach 25% at 75. I believe Graal mentioned that the formula was changed to better reflect the Diminishing Returns.
    yeah you're right he mentioned something like that so the old formula can prolly not be applied anymore

    Offense Ratings have an entirely separate formula since their effective caps are well over critical ratings (at 65 its ~10k (30%) vs 4550 (15%) and the new Offense cap is 50%).
    nope offense ratings are using the same formula: p = rating/((1190/3)*own level + rating)
    try it and you'll see that it adds up but be sure to unequip any items that grant % offense first


    Of course mobs with that much Finesse should be rare (maybe the Dragon) but you're still missing the point. Let me reiterate "Finesse generally hurts Wardens and Guardians equally in survivability* but it will hurt the more avoidance based class more because it will render huge sums of rating useless."
    i understood the point you were trying to make and i agree that wardens get hit a bit more by finesse but with your 4.3% difference per avoidance you were painting a very bleak picture and i wanted to say something about it
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  8. #58
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    Melee and Ranged are combined into physical mitigation. Tactical mitigation is still separate. Hmm, I think CA was broken in beta. I doubt I'll get that bored, especially with all the NFL games today.
    Ya, so Physical and Tactical Mitigation are still listed separately from Common/Fire/Etc (although Tactical defense seems to always equal Non-Common defense).

    Does damage taken now equal X*(1-common/fire/etc)*(1-physical/tactical)?

    Physical damage can definitely be non-common (well it can atm anyway) and I think Tactical damage can be common, so I don't see how else it would work given the way the stats are listed?

    If that's right, then the earlier posted numbers are missing something.
    Last edited by Evendale; Sep 12 2011 at 03:29 AM. Reason: typo
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  9. #59
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    around 11k to get to 25% block - check my screens

    i ran the numbers from level 75 with finesse ratings from level 75 toons perspective (LM, Grd, Wdn)

    Finesse reducing avoidance by directly reducing the percent hurts classes with high avoidance more than when it was a rating reduction. We can argue guard vs ward all day, the truth is the change hurts both of us. I wish they'd switch it back or tell us why they changed it.

    edit: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...58#post5671158

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...45#post5656045
    Last edited by Mysterion; Sep 11 2011 at 09:59 PM. Reason: added links

  10. #60
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    Ya, so Physical and Tactical Mitigation are still listed separately from Common/Fire/Etc (although Physical defense seems to always equal Common defense).

    Does damage taken now equal X*(1-common/fire/etc)*(1-physical/tactical)?

    Physical damage can definitely be non-common (well it can atm anyway) and I think Tactical damage can be common, so I don't see how else it would work given the way the stats are listed?

    If that's right, then the earlier posted numbers are missing something.
    i think physical defense now mitigates any type of damage that is dealt via ranged or melee attacks (that includes fire/shadow aso.)
    same goes for tactical defense
    at least that's how i understood it so far
    if someone could post a screenshot from bullroarer showing the physical defense tooltip that would be very much obliged

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    I wish they'd switch it back or tell us why they changed it.
    my guess would be because you could actually counter finesse by going beyond the cap with your rating
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Sep 11 2011 at 10:03 PM.
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  11. #61
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    i think physical defense now mitigates any type of damage that is dealt via ranged or melee attacks (that includes fire/shadow aso.)
    same goes for tactical defense
    at least that's how i understood it so far
    if someone could post a screenshot from bullroarer showing the physical defense tooltip that would be very much obliged
    Ya, that's the same as how it works now (melee/ranged mitigate any type of dmg, including fire/shadow/etc).

    I was just pointing out that physical/tactical mitigation was missing from the earlier analysis.

    Here's a post from Myst showing the different values: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...67#post5657767
    ... which is kinda ambiguous/confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    my guess would be because you could actually counter finesse by going beyond the cap with your rating
    Ya, they need to protect themselves from one day screwing up the gear that's available and allowing people to get 100% avoidance even with Finesse .
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  12. #62

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I honestly think it was changed to percentage rather than ratings to avoid Wardens being a bit too powerful. Evendale is absolutely right, it's quite possible that we would have been able to completely negate Finesse and remain near 75% BPE (I assume 100% was a joke ) with future updates and gear.

    Guards would have taken more of a percentage penalty because they have less rating with that system. We can speculate all day about who it hurts more and why we should be able to stack higher avoidances, but to be completely honest it's not fair to punish the class that has a lower BPE with a higher penalty. I don't think it would have resulted in game breaking differences between the survivability of each class, but to make any noticeable difference to Warden avoidances (10-15%) then Guards would have had to take huge hits to their BPE down to almost unusable levels. As much as I would have loved a way to somewhat mitigate Finesse as a Warden, I don't think it would have been fair.

    In a percentage system, if they want a boss to take off 10% avoidance then it will take off 10% avoidance, not 7% for Wardens and 12% for Guards.
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  13. #63
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    In a percentage system, if they want a boss to take off 10% avoidance then it will take off 10% avoidance, not 7% for Wardens and 12% for Guards.
    But why would they want that ?
    Avoidance is supposed to be wardens' forte. Harder bosses will have higher finesse, which means the warden will be more squishy (squishier ?). Solo content monsters won't have much finesse, so the warden will be stronger. This is basically the same story as HoTs not scaling with the damage taken.
    I don't want to play an OP solo class. I want to play a balanced class. I don't care about not being immortal in solo content. Raiding is far more challenging.
    But Turbine isn't even trying to balance the warden. It looks like it will be worse than ever.
    Perhaps the warden will be a viable main tank. Nevertheless, it will only mean that raid content is easy enough.
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    With current gear I could only get block over cap. I could get it to a level where a 12% finesse probably wouldn't reduce block. I don't see there being enough gear in the game that will buff parry and evade to get to 25%. I think a defensively built warden is going to probably end up somewhere around 25/20/20. It just takes too much rating to go from 20% to 25% and I've never seen gear that gives thousands of parry or evade to get there, usually just a little bit.

    My two guesses about finesse changing were what was proposed above...prevent over-ratings. The other is it somehow is a game performance issue.

  15. #65
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    With current gear I could only get block over cap. I could get it to a level where a 12% finesse probably wouldn't reduce block. I don't see there being enough gear in the game that will buff parry and evade to get to 25%. I think a defensively built warden is going to probably end up somewhere around 25/20/20. It just takes too much rating to go from 20% to 25% and I've never seen gear that gives thousands of parry or evade to get there, usually just a little bit.
    I meant in like a years time when they have brought out more instances and have to keep making new gear with slightly better and slightly better stats.

    ---------------------

    So people in this thread have made the argument that a % reduction from Finesse unfairly penalizes Wardens because it costs more rating for wardens to get the last bit of % (since their ratings are higher). You can just as easily say a ratings reduction from Finesse would be unfairly advantageous to Wardens because the last bit of rating gains them less % (maybe that's what the devs were thinking, and that does seem more valid to me since you have a higher cost for the last bit of rating regardless of whether or not there is Finesse).

    That said, its clear that a straight percentage subtraction penalizes Wardens more than anyone else because their avoidance is higher to start with and so the damage they will take increases by relatively more than any other class. Similarly, Finesse actually reduces the gap between tank survivability and other class's survivability. Presumably all this is totally unintended, and it is definitely very very bad for balancing.

    So, this is how Finesse should work imo to be properly balanced:

    Avoidance = X%
    Finesse = Y%
    New Avoidance = X-Y+XY

    ie: So that the increase in damage taken from Y% finesse is Y% (regardless of your avoidance)!
    ie: (1-New Avoidance)/(1-Old Avoidance) - 1 = Y

    eg: Imagine 20% Finesse
    Warden has 75% avoidance ==> Warden new avoidance = 70%
    Guardian has 65% avoidance ==> Guardian new avoidance = 58%
    Burglar has 30% avoidance ==> Burglar new avoidance = 16%
    Rune Keeper has 20% avoidance ==> Rune Keeper new avoidance = 4%
    Fervour Champ has 0% avoidance ==> Fervour Champ new avoidance = -20% (ie: even those mofo's should get hit harder imo)

    Additional dmg taken by Warden = 30/25-1 = 20%
    Additional dmg taken by Guardian = 42/35-1 = 20%
    Additional dmg taken by Burglar = 84/70-1 = 20%
    Additional dmg taken by RK = 96/80-1 = 20%
    Additional dmg taken by Fervour Champ = 120(!?)/100-1 = 20%


    Of course this way they would have to make sure they don't bring out gear that lets Wardens get their avoidance too high, but that should be easier to balance than the current alternative (not that the devs wouldn't screw it up somehow either way).
    Last edited by Evendale; Sep 12 2011 at 10:41 AM.
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post

    I was just pointing out that physical/tactical mitigation was missing from the earlier analysis.

    Here's a post from Myst showing the different values: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...67#post5657767
    ... which is kinda ambiguous/confusing.
    okay i'm definitely confused about that tooltip now (physical mitigation).. does this mean there will be no more non common ranged/melee attacks from mobs? or does it mean that all non common ranged/melee attacks will be handled by tactical mitigation instead? just wondering because the tactical mit. tooltip seems to be the only one mentioning those damage types

    also why is the % value listed for physical mitigation not the same as the one listed for common mitigation (same tooltip)?
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Physical (ranged/melee) - if common damage attack - more is mitigated is how I read that - it is pretty confusing


    Tactical - pretty self explanitory

  18. #68
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    okay someone explained it to me this way: first the damage source is mitigated (whether ranged/melee OR tactical) and then the damage type is mitigated (common is handled by the physical rating and everything else is handled by the tactical rating, regardless of the damage source)
    however if i take the screenshots from your guardian as reference mysterion this would mean that a common melee/ranged attack is reduced to 18% (!) of its initial damage value.. and that isn't even taking into account any bpe.. this seems very excessive to me
    any tactical non-common attack (i don't think there are any tactical common attacks anyway) would be reduced by 75.3% to 24.7% of its initial value.. of course bpe doesn't trigger here but considering that the mitigation for, let's say fire based attacks is maybe 20-30% on live that is even more excessive than the common damage one

    this would render most old content, where non common damage was still a thing to be very afraid of, pretty much obsolete.. even if it does scale

    have any of you tried running old scaled instances where non common damage used to be a big issue? (none come to mind currently but maybe you can think of one)

    so yeah i'm still confused O_o
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Sep 12 2011 at 02:37 PM.
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  19. #69
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    nope offense ratings are using the same formula: p = rating/((1190/3)*own level + rating)
    try it and you'll see that it adds up but be sure to unequip any items that grant % offense first

    i understood the point you were trying to make and i agree that wardens get hit a bit more by finesse but with your 4.3% difference per avoidance you were painting a very bleak picture and i wanted to say something about it
    Well now you see why I only wanted to poke the math with a stick rather than actually tackle it. Learn something everyday.

    If the message that I got across was "the more you spend the more you lose" then yes that was the message (ack! This goes way too right for my tastes!) If the message was that we get hurt from a mathematical standpoint since it reduces more than the X% given....Well all I can say is it doesn't matter how you reduce something by X% it still gets reduced by X% (personal experience by the way. Statistics really is a bunch of damn lies haha).


    I remember reading that Damage goes through a set order (was by Jaunt in his L2P guide):

    Melee/Ranged
    BPE (parry only for melee. On a hit crit defense vs crit chance is applied on a second d100 roll*)
    Mitigation (common/fire/shadow/etc)
    Defense (melee/ranged)

    Tactical
    Resist
    Mitigation
    Defense

    The only reason that Melee/Range/Tactical Defense were so great is that they covered all damage types and could help support your mitigation gaps.

    *actually now that I think about it we can technically make it so that they never hit and a critical hit is not considered a guaranteed hit (damn you D&D!) so crit is most likely rolled for after hitting. Still unsure and is still better for another thread. Food for thought.
    Last edited by mikas131; Sep 12 2011 at 08:41 PM.
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  20. #70
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    Physical (ranged/melee) - if common damage attack - more is mitigated is how I read that - it is pretty confusing
    Now I see. A bit odd, but that definitely would make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikas131 View Post
    I remember reading that Damage goes through a set order (was by Jaunt in his L2P guide):

    Melee/Ranged
    BPE (parry only for melee. Crit defense/chance is applied here on the d100 roll*)
    Mitigation (common/fire/shadow/etc)
    Defense (melee/ranged)
    Mitigation and Defense are multiplicative with each other so their order doesn't matter. If Jaunt specified an order, it would be for illustrative/conceptual purposes only.

    Anyway, if Myst is right, melee/ranged is now basically gone. It is included in (so effectively additive with) the physical (ie: non-common) or common defense stats that are listed.


    Max common mitigation Now:
    Heavy = 50%+((1-50%)*15%) = 57.5%
    Medium = 40%+((1-40%)*15%) = 49.0%
    Extra Damage Taken by Medium = 51/42.5 = 20%

    Max common mitigation in RoI:
    Heavy = 70%
    Medium = 55%
    Extra Damage Taken by Medium = 45/30 = 50%

    So that's quite a big difference really.

    A med armour will get hit for 50% more on each hit than a heavy in RoI, if people are able to reach max mitigations. That's compared to only 20% more per hit now.
    Last edited by Evendale; Sep 12 2011 at 10:50 PM.
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  21. #71

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeronth View Post
    But why would they want that ?
    Avoidance is supposed to be wardens' forte. Harder bosses will have higher finesse, which means the warden will be more squishy (squishier ?). Solo content monsters won't have much finesse, so the warden will be stronger. This is basically the same story as HoTs not scaling with the damage taken.
    I don't want to play an OP solo class. I want to play a balanced class. I don't care about not being immortal in solo content. Raiding is far more challenging.
    But Turbine isn't even trying to balance the warden. It looks like it will be worse than ever.
    Perhaps the warden will be a viable main tank. Nevertheless, it will only mean that raid content is easy enough.
    That is our strength, BPE. The reason Finesse was introduced has nothing to do with any of this, it was to make tanks more necessary. Bring a squishy class down to almost 0 BPE and suddenly tanks are much more necessary which is not the case currently.

    The Finesse hurts both tank classes, but it still forces us to be the only ones tanking. If Turbine wants to use this system, it wouldn't make sense to subtract more rating from the tank class that has less of it to spare. It should come off both tanks equally, which it would not do with a rating system.

    BPE is still our forte, and I have a good feeling it will continue to be our forte. Finesse does not change that, it only makes it so Hunters, Champs, Burgs, etc aren't able to cheese through raid content. A Warden decently geared up for BPE going from 65% down to 50% is not going to be any worse than a Guard going from 45% down to 30%. I could definitely see problems arising if to bring Wardens from 65% down to 50%, they also had to bring guards down from 45% to below 25%. Percentage is the most sensible way to actually enforce the Finesse system and not have it become another useless stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    Now I see. A bit odd, but that definitely would make sense.


    Mitigation and Defense are multiplicative with each other so their order doesn't matter. If Jaunt specified an order, it would be for illustrative/conceptual purposes only.

    Anyway, if Myst is right, melee/ranged is now basically gone. It is included in (so effectively additive with) the physical (ie: non-common) or common defense stats that are listed.


    Max common mitigation Now:
    Heavy = 50%*((1-50%)*15%) = 57.5%
    Medium = 40%*((1-40%)*15%) = 49.0%
    Extra Damage Taken by Medium = 51/42.5 = 20%

    Max common mitigation in RoI:
    Heavy = 70%
    Medium = 55%
    Extra Damage Taken by Medium = 45/30 = 50%

    So that's quite a big difference really.

    A med armour will get hit for 50% more on each hit than a heavy in RoI, if people are able to reach max mitigations. That's compared to only 20% more per hit now.
    I think this is deceptive. I don't know any Wardens who currently hit the medium armor cap. I don't have a level 65 Guardian so I can't speak from experience but I don't think any Guards are hitting the cap either. This doesn't seem like a realistic comparison. Not that it couldn't be realistic but there seems to be a lot of "ifs" between here and there.

    Turbine also seems to be doing a better job of not making every single raid boss do common damage, so maybe this won't even come into play all that much in raids.
    Last edited by thunderchickn; Sep 12 2011 at 10:31 PM.
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  22. #72
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    I think this is deceptive. I don't know any Wardens who currently hit the medium armor cap. I don't have a level 65 Guardian so I can't speak from experience but I don't think any Guards are hitting the cap either. This doesn't seem like a realistic comparison. Not that it couldn't be realistic but there seems to be a lot of "ifs" between here and there.

    Turbine also seems to be doing a better job of not making every single raid boss do common damage, so maybe this won't even come into play all that much in raids.
    It's not hard to hit the cap atm if a minstrel uses their +Armour tale. And based on Myst's screenshots (which are "apparently" after the "mitigation nerf"), showing a Guardian at 67.8% mit with no buffs except Ward, it seems people will be hitting the cap (or getting extremely close to it) post RoI as well.

    Of course its not as big of a deal to cap your mit now because going from 56.65->57.5% (reduce dmg taken by 1.96%) isn't as big of a difference as going from 69.0->70.0% (reduce dmg by 3.23%). Might be able to actually convince minstrels to use the right tale now .

    Non-common mits are obv not going to be that high though yea.
    Last edited by Evendale; Sep 12 2011 at 10:55 PM.
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  23. #73

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    It's not hard to hit the cap atm if a minstrel uses their +Armour tale. And based on Myst's screenshots (which are "apparently" after the "mitigation nerf"), showing a Guardian at 67.8% mit with no buffs except Ward, it seems people will be hitting the cap (or getting extremely close to it) post RoI as well.

    Of course its not as big of a deal to cap your mit now because going from 56.65->57.5% (reduce dmg taken by 1.96%) isn't as big of a difference as going from 69.0->70.0% (reduce dmg by 3.23%). Might be able to actually convince minstrels to use the right tale now .

    Non-common mits are obv not going to be that high though yea.
    Fair enough, although I'm fine with the larger discrepancy in mitigations. There needs to be a concrete difference between Wardens and Guards. Guards should have a noticeable advantage in mitigation while Wardens should have noticeably higher avoidances. Before RoI it hasn't been that way, Guards could get almost the save avoidances that Wardens could. With RoI it's finally how it should be Wardens might take more damage, but they will also be avoiding more damage.

    In the end I think it will be about equal, and even if Wardens take more damage by a few percentages I'm fine with that. As bad as healing scales in raids, 24 seconds (or whatever it is going to be changed to) of a 200+ every 3s heal will help make up for any difference. Guardians don't have that option, so letting them come out in the end (after both BPE and mitigations have been counted) with a little bit less damage taken doesn't bother me as long as it's no more than 5-10% of an advantage. For every 10,000 damage taken that's only 500-1,000 extra taken by the Warden. That's nothing, easily could be just the difference in morale between a well geared and average geared player before even factoring in any heals.
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  24. #74
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    Turbine also seems to be doing a better job of not making every single raid boss do common damage, so maybe this won't even come into play all that much in raids.
    Turbine also seems to make it a point to purposely include common damage in the last few raids so it goes both ways.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    In the end I think it will be about equal, and even if Wardens take more damage by a few percentages I'm fine with that. As bad as healing scales in raids, 24 seconds (or whatever it is going to be changed to) of a 200+ every 3s heal will help make up for any difference. Guardians don't have that option, so letting them come out in the end (after both BPE and mitigations have been counted) with a little bit less damage taken doesn't bother me as long as it's no more than 5-10% of an advantage. For every 10,000 damage taken that's only 500-1,000 extra taken by the Warden. That's nothing, easily could be just the difference in morale between a well geared and average geared player before even factoring in any heals.
    HoTs are staying the same duration as before(in beta anyways).
    Last edited by striverg; Sep 13 2011 at 12:52 AM.
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  25. #75

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by striverg View Post
    Turbine also seems to make it a point to purposely include common damage in the last few raids so it goes both ways.

    HoTs are staying the same duration as before(in beta anyways).
    Well sure some bosses do mostly common damage, but at least OD isn't like BG where only 1/3 bosses do significant non-common damage, and the hardest boss in the game (at the time) did common damage. Even of the few bosses in OD that do mostly common damage, they give out conditions that need to be cured (non-common) or some adds that do non-common damage. My only point was that it's lame to have the "hardest" fights in the game include mostly common damage.

    To your second point, I was under the impression that this was happening:
    Quote Originally Posted by Regero View Post
    Upcoming Trait Changes:

    Shield Four Set Bonus-- (instead of its current +10% healing) Will grant +2 HoT pulses
    If it isn't, it still doesn't change my point. I only included the duration to show how long it would last before we would want to refresh which was a nice plus. The healing itself is still there for us to make up a 5-10% gap in damage taken compared to a Guard even if it lasts the 18s we currently have.
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