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  1. #26
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Araelinnis View Post
    The point of reference for all the comparisons and calculations here is always the situation without finesse, but this is not correct. After Isengard things don’t need to be balanced without finesse anymore.

    For a long time I wasn’t sure if partial B/P/E would still exist in Isengard. Obviously they do, and they have a huge influence on the damage taken, especially for wardens. I played around with the numbers a bit, and without finesse you can easily reach a point where a warden takes much less damage from his combination of higher B/P/E and medium armor than a guardian. So I rather think finesse is necessary because things would be very unbalanced in favor of the wardens without it.
    I looked at Mysterion's screen shots of a Warden with full defensive self-buffs and a Guardian with Guardian's Ward up. That's the best data I have. For the sake of this evaluation of partials etc. I made the assumptions that we're dealing with common damage and that there is an additive effect between Partial <something> Reduction % and Common Mitigation %.

    Warden:
    Common Mitigation: 49.9%
    Block: 25.0%, PB: 10.0%, PBR: 55.0%
    Evade: 20.0%, PE: 7.7%, PER: 55.0%
    Parry: 19.8%, PP: 7.6%, PPR: 75.0%
    All partials get absorbed.

    In 90.1% of all attacks the Warden takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 5.0% of all incoming damage.

    Guardian:
    Common Mitigation: 66.8%
    Block: 25.0%, PB: 12.8%, PBR: 62.5%
    Evade: 5.1%, PE: 2.2%, PER: 47.1%
    Parry: 17.8%, PP: 9.0%, PPR: 75.0%
    All partials get absorbed.

    In 71.9% of all attacks the Guardian takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 9.3% of all incoming damage.

    So your conclusion seems to hold up based on these numbers, Wardens do in fact take less damage than Guardians on average, though they are of course still susceptible to spike damage.

    I don't know how Partials get affected by Finesse but if they don't - at all - we can play with the idea of simply reducing the avoidances as one lump as all partials are absorbed by both classes. Thus using the "popular" 9% Finesse we get:

    Wardens:
    In 81.1% of all attacks the Warden takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 9.5% of all incoming damage. That's up by 4.5% (or a 90% increase which is a silly number to use in this context as absolute numbers make more sense).

    Guardians:
    In 62.9% of all attacks the Guardian takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 12.3% of all incoming damage. That's up by 3.0% (or a 32% relative increase).

    My conclusion:
    Yes, the Warden does get hurt more defensively than the Guardian by Finesse. However, if the data samples are representative, the assumptions hold, and my calculations are correct, the Warden is still in a very nice place in RoI. It could be argued that the difference is made up by the Warden's greater susceptibility to spike damage.

    It would require about 25% Finesse to make Guardians and Wardens take equal amounts of expected damage at which point they will take about 17.5% damage (and the Guardians will have serious trouble getting block and parry responses).

  2. #27
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorietta View Post
    It could be argued that the difference is made up by the Warden's greater susceptibility to spike damage.
    as i pointed out earlier it could also be argued that the fact wardens can more easily defend against ranged/melee non common attacks gives them a further advantage
    with a big morale pool spike damage should be no issue either.. statistically the warden still receives the 9.5% incoming damage or whatever you calculated
    add to that the far superior self healing abilities of a warden which will even be adjusted to work better with raid content...
    so if anything the warden still has an advantage over the guardian not the other way round

    i think any kind of doom and gloom regarding the warden is currently very inappropriate and possibly only caused by wardens having a very sheltered existence having never been treated worse than any other class during updates.. i.e. they are not used to "nerfs"
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Sep 07 2011 at 08:10 AM.
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  3. #28
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I don´t play a warden but i understand how things go, and i can see that, before RoI wardens already had issues on being as good tanks as guardians - raiding wise they were worst, fellowship wise they were a bit better -, but after RoI i believe this issue will be even worse. I hope i am wrong.

    My main is a RK, and considering also the changes (better said, the difference between what a RK and a minstrel can bring to a raid), i fin weird that both "pay-for-win" classes are getting such disadvantages compared with old classes like guardian or minstrel. Well, at least RK DPSers get some kind of buff in raids (and nerf on pvmp and so), but ... what´s left for wardens, apart from being best soloers?

  4. #29
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I think wardens are slightly more affected by finesse, but the bigger issue is the change from rating reduction to percentage reduction, already discussed here:

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...47#post5665047

    I am working on getting ANewMachine a bunch of block numbers to try and determine what the equation at level 75 is for block. I need more time in the day.

  5. #30
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    Yes, the changes as stated will penalize high-stacked BPE more, because of the DR on BPE. Also, the inverse relationship of avoidances means the Warden will actually take more damage because of Finesse penalties.

    Say you have a Warden at 25/20/20 BPE, and a Guardian at 25/15/10 (numbers courtesy of my butt). Say a boss with high finesse knocks off 12%. Of course, BPE is additive, so in terms of total avoidances, the Warden goes from 65->53, and the Guardian from 50->38, which means their incoming DPS goes from 35->47 (34% more for WRD) and 50->62 (24% more for the GRD). GRDs have mits to compensate, which are percentile and so scale. WRDs have HOTs to make up for their incoming DPS, which are fixed-value and do not scale.

    So basically, not only do we lose more of our investment, but it hurts us more when we do.

    Dont forget howmany buffs the warden has to get to get to those avoidance-levels. That 25% block is 11k rating for us and a GRD on what 7k? Because switching a stance gives them 5%.
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  6. #31
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by AltariasEU View Post
    Dont forget howmany buffs the warden has to get to get to those avoidance-levels. That 25% block is 11k rating for us and a GRD on what 7k? Because switching a stance gives them 5%.
    Switching stance will most likely not occur. Guardians threat will always have to be activated since graalx himself stated that guardians will have trouble generating threat.
    Imo threat generation and the ability to keep aggro is slightly more important then survivability.
    Both Guardians and wardens are affected by finesse, try not to forget that in the constant bickering between our two sides.
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  7. #32
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I just wanted to say that I appreciate the intellectual honesty I am seeing in this thread.
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  8. #33
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Switching stance will most likely not occur. Guardians threat will always have to be activated since graalx himself stated that guardians will have trouble generating threat.
    Imo threat generation and the ability to keep aggro is slightly more important then survivability.
    Both Guardians and wardens are affected by finesse, try not to forget that in the constant bickering between our two sides.
    The guardian in my kin rarely uses threat stance(in OD the only time he uses it is for DB, but that's only because my warden can't facilitate an aggro swap by himself right now) and he rarely if ever has trouble holding aggro. Even if it is harder to hold aggro in RoI, aggro is supposed to be the responsibility of the entire group, not just the tank.

    I've never seen it denied that both classes are effected by finesse, but judging from the preliminary data(I'm honestly not even sure how accurate it is) it seems that, survivability-wise, wardens are effected by finesse more than guardians are.
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  9. #34
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    An example of how the change from rating reduction to percentage hurts high b/p/e classes.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...67#post5667867

  10. #35
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorietta View Post
    Wardens:
    In 81.1% of all attacks the Warden takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 9.5% of all incoming damage.

    Guardians:
    In 62.9% of all attacks the Guardian takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 12.3% of all incoming damage.
    Than you Glorietta for this analysis. Your numbers look correct, and point to a relative difference of almost a third more damage for the guardians vs. the wardens. Simply put, when wardens get three heals from the minstrel in a raid, the guard will have to get four heals. I can't imagine how such a massive difference can be missed by the devs. I really hope that your guesses are wrong, we will see in three weeks now. The solo situation is even worse, as you only take half the damage (but I guess OP damage compensate for this difference).

  11. #36
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorietta View Post
    I looked at Mysterion's screen shots of a Warden with full defensive self-buffs and a Guardian with Guardian's Ward up. That's the best data I have. For the sake of this evaluation of partials etc. I made the assumptions that we're dealing with common damage and that there is an additive effect between Partial <something> Reduction % and Common Mitigation %.

    Warden:
    Common Mitigation: 49.9%
    Block: 25.0%, PB: 10.0%, PBR: 55.0%
    Evade: 20.0%, PE: 7.7%, PER: 55.0%
    Parry: 19.8%, PP: 7.6%, PPR: 75.0%
    All partials get absorbed.

    In 90.1% of all attacks the Warden takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 5.0% of all incoming damage.

    Guardian:
    Common Mitigation: 66.8%
    Block: 25.0%, PB: 12.8%, PBR: 62.5%
    Evade: 5.1%, PE: 2.2%, PER: 47.1%
    Parry: 17.8%, PP: 9.0%, PPR: 75.0%
    All partials get absorbed.

    In 71.9% of all attacks the Guardian takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 9.3% of all incoming damage.

    So your conclusion seems to hold up based on these numbers, Wardens do in fact take less damage than Guardians on average, though they are of course still susceptible to spike damage.

    I don't know how Partials get affected by Finesse but if they don't - at all - we can play with the idea of simply reducing the avoidances as one lump as all partials are absorbed by both classes. Thus using the "popular" 9% Finesse we get:

    Wardens:
    In 81.1% of all attacks the Warden takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 9.5% of all incoming damage. That's up by 4.5% (or a 90% increase which is a silly number to use in this context as absolute numbers make more sense).

    Guardians:
    In 62.9% of all attacks the Guardian takes no damage. The remaining attacks get mitigated which means that he can expect to take a total of 12.3% of all incoming damage. That's up by 3.0% (or a 32% relative increase).

    My conclusion:
    Yes, the Warden does get hurt more defensively than the Guardian by Finesse. However, if the data samples are representative, the assumptions hold, and my calculations are correct, the Warden is still in a very nice place in RoI. It could be argued that the difference is made up by the Warden's greater susceptibility to spike damage.

    It would require about 25% Finesse to make Guardians and Wardens take equal amounts of expected damage at which point they will take about 17.5% damage (and the Guardians will have serious trouble getting block and parry responses).
    Wouldn't the values for never taking damage just be the sum of avoidance. Partials you still take damage on. So wardens take no damage 64.8% of the time. And have a 25.3% chance to get a partial.

    My only problem with your analysis is that your conclusions seem opposite of what has been reported. Guards are reporting being sturdy and wardens are reporting feeling squishy. I've felt like I've been more squishy at 75 with on-level mobs more than 65 for sure.

    Edit: I'm still getting used to turbine math. If I'm incorrect, please let me know and then procede troll me from here on out.
    Last edited by Mysterion; Sep 09 2011 at 08:58 AM.

  12. #37
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    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    Wouldn't the values for never taking damage just be the sum of avoidance. Partials you still take damage on. So wardens take no damage 64.8% of the time. And have a 25.3% chance to get a partial.

    My only problem with your analysis is that your conclusions seem opposite of what has been reported. Guards are reporting being sturdy and wardens are reporting feeling squishy. I've felt like I've been more squishy at 75 with on-level mobs more than 65 for sure.

    Edit: I'm still getting used to turbine math. If I'm incorrect, please let me know and then procede troll me from here on out.
    You're right - it does look odd if it goes counter to what people playing in the Beta experience. Not being privy to testing the stuff personally (Ya hear me, Turbine! ) I've had to rely on information shared by others.

    The problem is presumably in the calculation of Partials. I have used the additive method which has been used by Turbine so far - and which gave rise to the "infamous" Guardian Block Absorption build. If you don't see a fair number of e.g. "Parry - Absorbed" but rather "Parry - 123", then my assumptions are obviously wrong.

    Another way of doing it would be to let the Partial mitigation replace the generic one, but looking at the numbers it would mean that a Guardian would be better off not Partially Blocking (for mitigation purposes only) or Partially Evading a blow as his Common Mitigation is higher than those two Partials'. This method feels wrong.

    The last way I can see would be to use a multiplicative method, e.g. if you Partially Parry on a Warden then damage gets reduced to (1-75%) * (1-49.9%) = 12.5%. Adding to my first numbers, I get (without Finesse):

    Warden:
    Common Mitigation: 49.9%
    Block: 25.0%, PB: 10.0%, PBR: 55.0% -> 77.5%
    Evade: 20.0%, PE: 7.7%, PER: 55.0% -> 77.5%
    Parry: 19.8%, PP: 7.6%, PPR: 75.0% -> 87.5%

    And a total estimated average incoming damage reduction of
    (25%+20%+19.8%)*100% + 10%*77.5% + 7.7%*77.5% + 7.6%*87.5% + 9.9%*49.9% = 90.2%
    Which leads to the Warden taking 9.8% damage without Finesse.
    And 14.3% Damage with 9% Finesse.

    Guardian:
    Common Mitigation: 66.8%
    Block: 25.0%, PB: 12.8%, PBR: 62.5% -> 87.6%
    Evade: 5.1%, PE: 2.2%, PER: 47.1% -> 82.4%
    Parry: 17.8%, PP: 9.0%, PPR: 75.0% -> 91.7%

    And a total estimated average incoming damage reduction of
    (25%+5.1%+17.8%)*100% + 12.8%*87.6% + 2.2%*82.4% + 9.0%*91.7% +28.1%*66.8% = 87.9%
    Which leads to the Guardian taking 12.1% damage without Finesse.
    And 15.0% Damage with 9% Finesse.

    This doesn't really explain why Guardians would feel sturdy and Wardens squishy. It is possible that some other mechanism - or even bug - is at work?

    (As usual please feel free to check my numbers, mistakes happen).

  13. #38
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    This might be completely wrong and I wish I knew how it worked, and has been derived from reading forums. Meaning I have done 0 statistical analysis to back them up, just my understanding.

    B/P/E is cumulative to get total Avoidance
    Partials are another check (still cumulative but to a total partials value instead of avoidance) and the reduction in damage works hand in hand with your mitigations to determine damage taken.
    If you fail an avoidance check and a partial check then the only thing to determine the damage taken is your mitigations.

    So when I see a red number come up I think, I failed a b/p/e check, I failed a partials check, and my mitigation reduced the damage to get at that value.

    Finesse seems to be a reduction in b/p/e based on a percentage. I always thought partials were a derived value of the avoidance + any modifiers. So a reduction in block would reduce your partial rating.

  14. #39

    Re: AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorietta View Post
    This doesn't really explain why Guardians would feel sturdy and Wardens squishy. It is possible that some other mechanism - or even bug - is at work?

    (As usual please feel free to check my numbers, mistakes happen).
    Nice analysis. Would be nice to see some confirmation with testing. I may do that myself

    As for the squishy feeling, I believe this is due to when hits do make it past avoidances they hit bigger on a warden compared to a guard (esp crits). So, when the green bar does actually move, it moves more on a warden, hence the feeling of squishiness. By extension, a streak of "bad luck" is more likely to kill a warden than a guard whereas over the long haul a warden may actually require less healing.
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  15. #40
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    This might be completely wrong and I wish I knew how it worked, and has been derived from reading forums. Meaning I have done 0 statistical analysis to back them up, just my understanding.

    B/P/E is cumulative to get total Avoidance
    Partials are another check (still cumulative but to a total partials value instead of avoidance) and the reduction in damage works hand in hand with your mitigations to determine damage taken.
    If you fail an avoidance check and a partial check then the only thing to determine the damage taken is your mitigations.

    So when I see a red number come up I think, I failed a b/p/e check, I failed a partials check, and my mitigation reduced the damage to get at that value.

    Finesse seems to be a reduction in b/p/e based on a percentage. I always thought partials were a derived value of the avoidance + any modifiers. So a reduction in block would reduce your partial rating.
    I think you are correct. Or at least I hope so because that's what I've used to do my calculations. Edit: Except that I think that the partials check is part of the same check as the avoidance check. Several steps are hidden so unless you have an instinctive grasp of maths it may seem like I'm plucking numbers out of this air. The alternative would be lots of extra numbers, which some would skip because they are superfluous and the rest because they don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonhurt View Post
    Nice analysis. Would be nice to see some confirmation with testing. I may do that myself

    As for the squishy feeling, I believe this is due to when hits do make it past avoidances they hit bigger on a warden compared to a guard (esp crits). So, when the green bar does actually move, it moves more on a warden, hence the feeling of squishiness. By extension, a streak of "bad luck" is more likely to kill a warden than a guard whereas over the long haul a warden may actually require less healing.
    Sounds very reasonable. I'd really like to see if you can get some experimental confirmation so best of luck with that!
    Last edited by Glorietta; Sep 09 2011 at 10:32 AM. Reason: A small point.

  16. #41
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Edit : I should have read the last page before posting.
    Last edited by Aeronth; Sep 09 2011 at 10:23 AM.
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorietta View Post
    I think you are correct. Or at least I hope so because that's what I've used to do my calculations. Edit: Except that I think that the partials check is part of the same check as the avoidance check. Several steps are hidden so unless you have an instinctive grasp of maths it may seem like I'm plucking numbers out of this air. The alternative would be lots of extra numbers, which some would skip because they are superfluous and the rest because they don't care.


    Sounds very reasonable. I'd really like to see if you can get some experimental confirmation so best of luck with that!
    They must be a part of the same check as the avoidance check, or the "partial" chance is actually misleading. If you, say, 15% BPE and 10% partial chance (even across all avoidance categories) and it's two checks, then in reality your partials are only 6.5% apiece, because they only have a 10% chance to block the 65% of attacks that get through your full BPE. Turbine has been pretty straightforward with the numbers so far, and appears to prefer additive avoidance to multiplicative, anyway.
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  18. #43
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by ANewMachine View Post
    They must be a part of the same check as the avoidance check, or the "partial" chance is actually misleading. If you, say, 15% BPE and 10% partial chance (even across all avoidance categories) and it's two checks, then in reality your partials are only 6.5% apiece, because they only have a 10% chance to block the 65% of attacks that get through your full BPE. Turbine has been pretty straightforward with the numbers so far, and appears to prefer additive avoidance to multiplicative, anyway.
    there's still the option of having both checks happen at once and discarding the partial one if the full avoidance triggers

    of course that would still reduce the occurence of the partial avoidance by the percentage of the respective avoidance (i.e. 10% - 0,15*10)
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Sep 09 2011 at 11:55 AM.
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I'd like to point out that some significant mechanics in fights can only be mitigated, not avoided(I can't speak for the new raid, but using BG/OD as an example).

    The water in poison wing, DB's Face your Fears/Fire Puddles, Gorth's poison, etc. I dunno if this continues with the new RoI raid.

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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    It will be great to see how this plays out live...since the only actual data and reports that have escaped the beta / closed forum, do seem to support the analysis done in this thread.

    It could even be that early beta reports described by a handful of posters of guard invincibility, were greatly exaggerated...there actually have NOT been any such direct reports appearing to my eyes in the guard forums.
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  21. #46
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Malephor View Post
    I'd like to point out that some significant mechanics in fights can only be mitigated, not avoided(I can't speak for the new raid, but using BG/OD as an example).

    The water in poison wing, DB's Face your Fears/Fire Puddles, Gorth's poison, etc. I dunno if this continues with the new RoI raid.
    if i understood correctly what you're getting at i'd like to point out that other attacks are better to be avoided rather than mitigated (such as any melee or ranged attack that is made up of non dommon damage)
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    if i understood correctly what you're getting at i'd like to point out that other attacks are better to be avoided rather than mitigated (such as any melee or ranged attack that is made up of non dommon damage)
    No, it means some attack can't be avoided. Acid ticks, tactical....

    Edit: After reading what you wrote like 10 times, I think I finally get it. You are right, its better to avoid all damage whenever possible.

  23. #48
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    No, it means some attack can't be avoided. Acid ticks, tactical....

    Edit: After reading what you wrote like 10 times, I think I finally get it. You are right, its better to avoid all damage whenever possible.
    yeah i was getting at another aspect of warden game mechanics
    they have higher avoidances
    and even a guardian doesn't have a lot of mitigation against non common damage so a warden definitely has an advantage there

    naturally of course it's also better to evade DoT inducing attacks altogether(any damage type) rather than mitigate them and the triggering DoT

    tactical attacks of course cannot be avoided that is correct


    edit: i'm gonna have to pedal back on my statement

    i just realised that common and non common damage are going to be handled by the same rating(s) in RoI (which are physical/tactical mitigation)
    so this is obviously not an advantage for the warden class anymore but rather an upgrade to all the classes concerning mitigations

    avoiding DoTs rather than mitigating them is still a good thing however
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Sep 09 2011 at 03:39 PM.
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  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I haven't really kept up with all the finesse discussion so I don't know if this has been answered or not yet, but now that finesse subtracts a percent rather than an amount of rating, does getting rating over the cap help?

    Previously if you stacked your rating higher than the percentage cap that additional rating would help buffer out the effects of finesse. I've seen some arguments where this seems assumed to be true still, but do we know that the game actually converts your ratings to a full percentage (i.e. 26.5%) and then truncates it to the max? Or does it just stop at 25% for all calculations. ** for clarity sake** The question being if the enemy has enough finesse to lower block by 5% and you have enough block rating to theoretically reach 26.5% does your effective block against that enemy turn into 21.5% or 20%?

    If it is the latter then the new caps act sort of like the old caps sans finesse and with finesse that means on each new raid tier your effective avoidance cap is lowered by whatever percent finesse is cutting off. This is only an issue if you CAN cap an avoidance, but as it appears that wardens are able to reach 25% block it becomes an issue immediately. As opposed to the previous iteration where you could counter finesse by stacking avoidance rating past the cap to maintain your effective percentage.
    (By this I mean if you couldn't reach the avoidance cap the effect of finesse would still be felt, but you could counter it because you still had room to increase your avoidance beyond what it was previously.)

    Of course, this could be countered by calculating the cap after factoring in finesse but I doubt that is the implementation in effect.
    Last edited by Dedfyre; Sep 10 2011 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Clarity and Typos

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    2,573

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Dedfyre View Post
    I haven't really kept up with all the finesse discussion so I don't know if this has been answered or not yet, but now that finesse subtracts a percent rather than an amount of rating, does getting rating over the cap help?

    Previously if you stacked your rating higher than the percentage cap that additional rating would help buffer out the effects of finesse. I've seen some arguments where this seems assumed to be true still, but do we know that the game actually converts your ratings to a full percentage (i.e. 26.5%) and then truncates it to the max? Or does it just stop at 25% for all calculations. ** for clarity sake** The question being if the enemy has enough finesse to lower block by 5% and you have enough block rating to theoretically reach 26.5% does your effective block against that enemy turn into 21.5% or 20%?

    If it is the latter then the new caps act sort of like the old caps sans finesse and with finesse that means on each new raid tier your effective avoidance cap is lowered by whatever percent finesse is cutting off. This is only an issue if you CAN cap an avoidance, but as it appears that wardens are able to reach 25% block it becomes an issue immediately. As opposed to the previous iteration where you could counter finesse by stacking avoidance rating past the cap to maintain your effective percentage.
    (By this I mean if you couldn't reach the avoidance cap the effect of finesse would still be felt, but you could counter it because you still had room to increase your avoidance beyond what it was previously.)

    Of course, this could be countered by calculating the cap after factoring in finesse but I doubt that is the implementation in effect.
    Its a very good question. I wish the blue names would let us under the hood with how finesse works a little bit more.

 

 
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