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  1. #1

    Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    According to this post by graalx2 finesse is now turned into a percentage BEFORE being applied against bpe.

    We recently changed the way Finesse is applied to Block/Parry/Evade. Finesse is now converted to a percentage and then the percentage is applied to the target's BPE. It no longer subtracts directly from the rating.

    Say you have 2937 finesse. This converts to 9% (using the handy chart posted earlier, no idea if its correct but let's use those numbers for now). Finesse uses the same ratings to percentage conversion as Block/Parry/Evade.

    You attack a target with 1226 (4%) Block rating, 1226(4%) Parry rating and 1226(4%) Evade rating.

    The target will Block 1% of the time 4-(9/3) = 1%.
    The target will Parry 1% of the time.
    The target will Evade 1% of the time.
    So now all that extra bpe we stack is made fairly useless. Our extra 4000 bpe is negated by 1000 finesse. Meanwhile the Guardian's mitigations never get scaled like that.

    This is some MAJOR LEAGUE BS
    Last edited by Lazlo_Hollyfeld; Sep 05 2011 at 10:39 AM. Reason: fixed link (hopefully)

  2. #2
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    yeah if they're going to make this into a % before being applied to rating I have no idea how our avoidances are supposed to compete with higher mitigation that isn't effected by finesse.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I am for the sake of the current discussion deliberately ignoring the Guardians' lack of response skills as I look at survivability, not threat.

    If they design the content (mainly bosses) in such as way that Wardens and Guardians are equally viable in raids, I think that we will have a problem of overpowered Wardens in small and full fellowship instances where Finesse is less significant.

    If they balance around 3- and 6-man content then it does indeed look like Wardens will be less viable in raids due to squishiness.

    I find the decision to implement Finesse against players as a flat percentage very strange, as the design team has to chose which tank is too survivable in certain group situations.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    It completely ignores diminishing returns. If it just subtracted from the rating a -1000 block would mean much less when we are at 25% block (around 11k) than if they are just subtracting percentages. So all the effort of getting close to the caps is wasted. It will probably be better to stack raw morale than to build for a high avoidance - considering the trade off in relics to increase b/p/e vs raw morale.

    A new mechanic that reduces avoidance hurts everyone, but hurts the "avoidance" tank much more than everyone else. This is the one thing that worries me about RoI. Considering our deficit in mitigations - this might be the change that makes wardens' main role - soloing elites with low finesse.

  5. #5

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    (I posted this in the other thread, but it seems appropriate here too.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkens
    Player B/P/E is getting re-capped up to 25% so if they put Mob B/P/E on the same footing then you could use Finesse up to 25% before it becomes excessive. Moreover since it works exactly the same as crit defense (each point of finesse subtracts an equal number of points from the opponents effective B/P/E rating) each point is essentially as effective as the next. In fact it would actually be rising returns. Since the Mob is calculating B/P/E their ratings are subject to diminishing returns, in turn this means that each point subtracted from the Mob's rating pushes it further down the scale in terms of return on each point thus Finesse has greater returns as it goes higher...unless they made Mob's immune to diminishing returns in which case it still is a stat that doesn't experience diminishing returns but rather flat returns.

    Second thought, since Mob Finesse affects PC B/P/E ratings thats more an argument for stacking your own B/P/E even above cap much as it makes sense to overcap on crit right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by striverg View Post
    this is exactly what I'm thinking... unless somehow we get a "ghost" % over the cap from stacking rating we will never be able to have close to the b/p/e we need to compete with a guardian's new mitigation advantage.

    Is this something that will be addressed graal?
    I'm guessing they did this to make finesse have diminishing returns as opposed to rising returns. I'd imagine finesse will have its own diminishing returns formula to weigh against players' BPE stats. There's still a month of testing. (We'll know they messed up if wardens start finding items with 'Finesse Defense' )
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  6. #6

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I don't understand this at all!! Why punish the avoidance tank, it was harsh before it was changed to % but at least the we had DR to help us out a little.

    Have the devs even thought about wardens with this change??
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  7. #7

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I'm usually not that bad at math.
    Still I don't get it, why this change would suddenly hurt us more than guardians, in contrast to the finesse-system introduced in the first place Graalx2-post
    The mitigation difference is a bummer, but was there before, so I don't see the OP reason of mentioning it now.

    I would even go so far as to suggest the opposit. The finesse change is now affecting the stances of the guardian (+x% block or parry no matter what). As far as I know this wasn't the case, when finesse solely reduced the bpe ratings before turning them into percent. Depending on the point of view, this isn't a major impact, but still worth acknowledging in my book.

    I see an argument on each side of the coin of how the diminishing return works for and against us and I can't figure out whether they cancel each other out or not.

    On the one hand finesse as of now equals one total percentage is good, because with the diminishing formula it also means one rating equals less percentage reduction than three with lower numbers.
    For example if the old Finesse system had stayed the same, the "2937 = 9%" would have resulted in a uneven rating-splitt, that in total should be slightly higher than 9% (let's say 3,6%+3,0%+2,6% = 9,2%).
    Please note: Those are only imaginary numbers to explain the basic idea.

    On the other hand the new finesse is going to be a minor issue for those highly specialized in high block ratings. From the ratings perspective (again with the diminishing return in mind), a reduction of 3% out of 25% block hurts significantly more than 3% out of 14% parry.
    Last edited by Pabo; Sep 05 2011 at 12:21 PM.
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  8. #8

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    It will effect us more because the ratings suffer from DR, so as they get higher they contribute less to the %. Meaning if it subtracts pure rating we would suffer less % loss.

    However subtracting straight % means our % will be hit harder.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Pabo View Post
    I'm usually not that bad at math.
    Still I don't get it, why this change would suddenly hurt us more than guardians, in contrast to the finesse-system introduced in the first place Graalx2-post
    The mitigation difference is a bummer, but was there before, so I don't see the OP reason of mentioning it now.
    Two reasons:
    1) Due to the diminishing returns "buying" avoidances, Wardens "pay" more rating than Guardians for each percentagepoint of avoidance. Thus subtracting a fixed percentage means the Warden may have to "pay" e.g. 2000 rating whereas the Guardian pays e.g. 1000 rating.
    2) Each point of lost avoidance has to be soaked up by mitigation, thus if a Warden has 45% mitigation and a Guardian 65%, the Warden takes (1-45%) 55% damage from each hit that could have been avoided whereas the Guardian takes (1-65%) = 35% damage.

    Both of these factors play a part now. Previously it was considered more balanced as the diminishing returns meant that the Warden would lose fewer percentagepoints of avoidance (first point), and thus get hurt less as fewer hits were not avoided (second point).
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  10. #10

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Pabo View Post
    I'm usually not that bad at math.
    Still I don't get it, why this change would suddenly hurt us more than guardians, in contrast to the finesse-system introduced in the first place Graalx2-post
    The mitigation difference is a bummer, but was there before, so I don't see the OP reason of mentioning it now.

    I would even go so far as to suggest the opposit. The finesse change is now affecting the stances of the guardian (+x% block or parry no matter what). As far as I know this wasn't the case, when finesse solely reduced the bpe ratings before turning them into percent. Depending on the point of view, this isn't a major impact, but still worth acknowledging in my book.

    I see an argument on each side of the coin of how the diminishing return works for and against us and I can't figure out whether they cancel each other out or not.

    On the one hand finesse as of now equals one total percentage is good, because with the diminishing formula it also means one rating equals less percentage reduction than three with lower numbers.
    For example if the old Finesse system had stayed the same, the "2937 = 9%" would have resulted in a uneven rating-splitt, that in total should be slightly higher than 9% (let's say 3,6%+3,0%+2,6% = 9,2%).
    Please note: Those are only imaginary numbers to explain the basic idea.

    On the other hand the new finesse is going to be a minor issue for those highly specialized in high block ratings. From the ratings perspective (again with the diminishing return in mind), a reduction of 3% out of 25% block hurts significantly more than 3% out of 14% block.
    It affects wardens more than guardians because finesse will now take away FEWER rating points from a lower bpe than a higher one. I don't have the forumla in front of me, so these numbers are all made up and it just the rough gist of things, but... if a warden has, maybe, 10,000 bpe rating and a guard has 5,000 bpe rating, it used to be that a 1,000 finesse mob would lower the warden's bpe to 9,000 and the guardian's to 4,000. 10,000 to 9,000 would be a lower shift in endpoint percentage than 5,000 to 4,000. This system keeps the guardian focused on armor values and whatnot, as the mitigation tank, and the warden focused on sky-high bpe, as the avoidance tank.

    But with the changes, that 1000 finesse going against guards is essentially upgraded to 5,000 finesse against wardens, just to keep the percentage-drop the same. So now wardens are penalized for the very thing we are supposed to do as avoidance tanks: bump up our bpe.

    And stacking morale rather than bpe doesn't help that much, because the other half of our survivability is the self heals, but those are a static maximum rate of HoT, and so are less effective percentage-wise as our morale goes up.

    And so, we get the nerf bat of death. And for what reason? None was posted. No "we did this because...". Just a poopsandwhich for wardens. again.

  11. #11

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Meh, I'm not that worked up about it, provided they keep making end game content in the same vein as OD.

    Now, the reason I'm not that worried is due to all of Mysterion's hard work with putting guardian and warden defense in to TRUE perspective. Basically, we never had that much of an avoidance advantage to begin with, but those guards sure did want to make it seem that way...

    Beware of guards claiming they want "equality", lolz.

  12. #12
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I'm usually not that bad at math.
    As said, the issue is diminishing returns.

    Warden avoidances get stacked much higher than guard avoidances. So, in isengard, we may be sitting at 25% block with 11k rating(I'm pulling numbers out my ####, the idea remains the same, I just don't know the conversions yet), and a guard is at 15% block with 4.5k rating.

    Up at 11k rating, it may take another 500 rating to get 1% more block. At 4.5k rating, it is closer to 250 rating to get a block. So, 1000 finesse on a mob(4%) will take off the equivalent of 2k rating for wardens(because 500 rating = 1%, 4%*500=2k rating) but only 1k rating for guards.

  13. #13

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Malephor View Post
    Warden avoidances get stacked much higher than guard avoidances.
    This just isn't true though, we've been had... Look at Mysterion's guard and warden screenies and you'll see the real picture. Wardens are only much higher with Evade, that's it. Guards can hit 25% block with stance and only using 1 skill, and their parry is comparable to ours.

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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by horus418 View Post
    Beware of guards claiming they want "equality", lolz.
    Actually...you were one the wardens instrumental in demonstrating a higher capacity for BPE than it seems may be the case now. Your data was highly relied on in analyzing the comparison, and you argued more than once that wardens had a serious avoidance advantage that was considered in comparison with what guards can achieve. I have seen you flip-flop in your stated expectations and throw "mini-tantrums" at me a few too many times now to take this latest gratuitous jab too seriously...but you really ought to check yourself a bit before just lashing out at people.

    Anyway, my apologies for relying too heavily on an inadequate source of information, if that was indeed the case. I should have been more cautious, seeing an opinion swing so wildly back and forth...wards will have advantage...no, guards will...wait, its wardens again....no...its the evil guards all along...burn the witch!!! That is the true lolz!

    As said MANY TIMES...if wardens do prove to lack defense after RoI, some of us have stated plainly and have sincerely meant that we will request defensive buffs for wardens ...and I stand by that statement in full (said in direct reference to the recently received information that guards' mitigations were getting buffed to 15% max/cap difference for common damage...55% for medium...70% max for heavy). I think they have indicated they are going to be reducing that anyway, though I am not privy to beta details.

    Our measure of the "true balance" will have to be determined once they are finally done tweaking things so significantly....and hopefully people will have a consistant desire across BOTH classes then to find true equality, jointly requesting the buffing of either as may then be required, so that neither tank has a defensive advantage. Maybe they will get it "right" on their own...but I doubt it. This will be tough to do, and imo, is why I feel they made a mistake in implementing the changes they have in general...whereas ward's and guards have actually been defensively pretty close in the last year, and wards really just needed some specific skill adjustments for aggro control and swapping, threat recovery after death or aggro-wipe, and some crit defense being placed on traits instead of armor...aside from the general cleaning up and more usefulness that BOTH classes could make out of our class traits and lines.

    You guys were getting close to being full "equals" anyway, and still had/have your own unique way of getting the job done and done well...proving better than guards for some boss fights such as where a DoT effects througout (Frothmar)...IMO, it would have been far less likely to 'screw things up,' if they were not making so many "grand" changes as effect combat and tanking mechanics at the same time. Instead, they are unfortunately reinventing the wheel underneath both of us (again for us), and we will have to see what that means and how far out of kilter the "balance" ends up ;(

    This odd switch to finesse as a % does NOT seem a move in the right direction...but who knows, maybe they have already or are definitively planning on scaling back the heavy armor mit's -- so are just scooping more and more off of first one side of the scale ...and then doing the same off of the other side on realizing they took too much from the first...seeking balance as only a fool will, rather than just adding a little at a time to the weaker side, slowly bringing things up and then into full balance.

    Hopefully they will leave enough on both sides of the scale by the time they THINK they are finally done, so that they don't then "balance" both tanks entirely OUT OF having any defensive advantages whatsoever over the OTHER non-tank classes!

    A right proportion on both sides of that scale IS an important thing for us, mind you...but I still maintain that the real impending "battle" or concern for "true tanks" was, has been and will be with the champs...mark my words on this, despite the mantra of "I will still be able to tank just fine" that i have heard from some guards and most wards to date. Both guards and wards are going to suffer badly in the dps department with vitality as our main stat, but might still the offensive primary. Melee crit and agility (i.e., hit percentage, aside from parry/evade and crit), are going to go down with the new armor for both of us...but not for champs. A champ will inherently have much higher crit and offensive ratings, and probably higher finesse too (I am not sure on that, but they have fewer stats to work on so it stands to reason they may then have a better opportunity to target it via further itemization).

    So long as the content is NOT grossly out of line with the types of content we have seen for four years...champs that can THEN solo Clobin for the first time, are going to be "tough enough" to "main tank" while bringing to bear dps we won't see...human nature and 'raid optimizartion" will take care of the rest. I doubt you heard it "first" from me..but just remember that you DID hear it from me also...as some of you undoubtedly rail back against this notion in replying. We will see who "was right," before too long.

    Anyway... good luck...I will be traveling for the next weeks through the RoI launch, so won't be on the forums unless bored and on a smart-phone...so there will be no (or few anyway) long replies from me, if any at all. As said, I won't be replying at all to the expected rants that will flow from this note...that will in all likelihood try to ignore and "hide" what I have actually said here and elsewhere, while instead stressing the projections and personal fixations of the replier him/herself. I apologize if I have unintentionally mistated or forgotten to state with perfectly balanced exactitude, one or more minor digressive points included here in trying to explain that my overall interest was and will be to have wards and guards come out "equal" in the end. Please don't "allow" any such error on my part distract you from the overall sentiment I hold and have repeated.

    Fight hard for your "rights" and due as a class... but fight fairly and please realize that there really ARE some guards that see you as brothers and not as enemies...so please, no need for creating an external "false boggey man," especially if from a lack of personal consistency, waffling integrity and ever-changing viewpoints. The increasing quantum of information and knowledge available SHOULD permit reasonable adjustments to beliefs and expectations all around, if one is truly intellectually honest...this is a dynamic situation that is actively being adjusted. OTOH, such does NOT warrant and should not make permissible the casting of "blame" onto others for one's own evolution along the course.

    Let's see what they "do to us" and draw the necessary conclusions when they are "done" and we have unfettered access across the board. If you find you need a "friend from across the isle" post-Roi...you will indeed find one in me, at the very least...and I hope I can then count on the same in return if the scales end up other than this thread "perceives" them to be atm.
    Last edited by MorliX; Sep 06 2011 at 03:16 AM.
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  15. #15

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Thank you all for clarifying.
    This part in particular was the hint I needed to comprehend the whole situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazlo_Hollyfeld View Post
    ... if a warden has, maybe, 10,000 bpe rating and a guard has 5,000 bpe rating, it used to be that a 1,000 finesse mob would lower the warden's bpe to 9,000 and the guardian's to 4,000. 10,000 to 9,000 would be a lower shift in endpoint percentage than 5,000 to 4,000. ...
    I was too focused on change regarding the warden to appreciate the difference between the class-related top-ratings. As quoted before, the old Finesse formula divided the rate reduction proportionaly to the total bpe value (see orange quote part).

    The monster will resist with a 2243 rating.
    It will Block with (3000-(1000*(3000/(3000+2000+5000)))) = 2700 rating
    It will Parry with a 1800 rating
    It will Evade with a 4500 rating.
    Old Finesse took away more rating-points from higher stacked values like Evade in this particular case, thus resulting in the familiar effect that is now presented in a more obvious fashion. So in both Finesse cases a high Evade value would have suffered the biggest rate loss, being either the 500 rating points or a percentage.
    Or from the other perspective: An even divided percentage is going to reduce Parry by lesser (x% = 200 Parry rating) rating amount than Evade (x% = 500 Evade rating).
    This is the main reason why I didn't see the big changing difference at first and the "positive" aspect of this change did the rest.

    In the end you are right, even if this change resulted in a +-0 equilibrium regarding our own bpe, this change would definitely help Guardians more than us aswell.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by MorliX View Post
    As said MANY TIMES...if wardens do prove to lack defense after RoI, some of us have stated plainly and have sincerely meant that we will request defensive buffs for wardens ...and I stand by that statement in full (said in direct reference to the recently received information that guards' mitigations were getting buffed to 15% max/cap difference for common damage...55% for medium...70% max for heavy). I think they have indicated they are going to be reducing that anyway, though I am not privy to beta details.
    Not to detract from the main point but the problem graal had with heavy armors is they had way too much armor rating compared to medium and light. Unbuffed my warden on BR has about 45% mitigation while an unbuffed champion I talked to had 67%. The problem wasn't the cap was too high, it was the armor values were too high, resulting in them being too close to cap(I think guards could actually make it to cap with a shield) without any outside buffs as compared to medium and light.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by striverg View Post
    Not to detract from the main point but the problem graal had with heavy armors is they had way too much armor rating compared to medium and light. Unbuffed my warden on BR has about 45% mitigation while an unbuffed champion I talked to had 67%. The problem wasn't the cap was too high, it was the armor values were too high, resulting in them being too close to cap(I think guards could actually make it to cap with a shield) without any outside buffs as compared to medium and light.
    i've just checked my own avoidances and noticed that the return of evasion rating is not that far from linear (275 points per 1% at 5,9%/1626 rating; 281 points per 1% at 7,7%/2164 rating; 298 points per 1% at 13,2%/3938 rating)
    it doesn't sound like much to be honest

    now i don't know how drastically diminishing returns increase when going past 15% but i'm sure it has been covered at length somewhere

    that said i never trusted the rating <-> % conversion anyway.. i tried it with the only rating you can check without heaps of statistical data.. which is offense.. the offense % value calculated by the client did not increase my damage by the amount it claimed

    so i don't think any kind of fear mongering is appropriate before we've actually seen and played the changes ourselves

    most raid leaders are not number crunchers when it comes to the class setup of their raid groups so as long as wardens are still able to tank all content i am sure no one will see a difference in the desirability of wardens
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Sep 06 2011 at 11:58 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    i've just checked my own avoidances and noticed that the return of evasion rating is not that far from linear (275 points per 1% at 5,9%/1626 rating; 281 points per 1% at 7,7%/2164 rating; 298 points per 1% at 13,2%/3938 rating)
    it doesn't sound like much to be honest

    now i don't know how drastically diminishing returns increase when going past 15% but i'm sure it has been covered at length somewhere

    that said i never trusted the rating <-> % conversion anyway.. i tried it with the only rating you can check without heaps of statistical data.. which is offense.. the offense % value calculated by the client did not increase my damage by the amount it claimed

    so i don't think any kind of fear mongering is appropriate before we've actually seen and played the changes ourselves

    most raid leaders are not number crunchers when it comes to the class setup of their raid groups so as long as wardens are still able to tank all content i am sure no one will see a difference in the desirability of wardens
    One would think so, but if information gets out that one class is more capable than another it does result in raid leaders behaving differently and picking classes differently. It depends on the server and on the players involved, but even small single digit numbers like the ones currently in effect result in over all trends that tend to suck for the class on the losing end.


    I think the devs almost had it perfect when wardens had, or were perceived to have, better BPE than guards and guards had better raw mitigation than wardens. That's a different but equal type of standpoint that seems like what we should be striving for between two different classes with the same primary function.

    I'm not entirely bummed out about the current state of things though. We still don't have access to all the information, and even the information we do have is likely to be changed. I'm still waiting to hear about the supposed changes to our Morale Leach skills and weather or not Heavy Armor will be tweaked further, though I have to say I strongly assume it will.

    Current numbers seem unbalanced, and I hope the devs read the analysis and rethink other possible solutions, but I'm still content to sit back and wait, at least until our next dev diary.


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  19. #19
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    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcircus View Post
    most raid leaders are not number crunchers when it comes to the class setup of their raid groups so as long as wardens are still able to tank all content i am sure no one will see a difference in the desirability of wardens
    I agree with you that most sensible raid leaders in kin runs just want useful tanks, i.e. well-geared and played competently. If the kin members trust their tanks the class is less important.

    Having said that I can foresee three types of raids where Guardians may be preferred if they end up being less squishy than Wardens.

    First we have the bleeding edge kins that strive for complete challenge clears. Until they have the fights nailed down, they want the best composition possible and will take an extra 1% if they can get it. Not many Wardens will be affected by this and for some fights the mechanics might very well favour even an under-balanced Warden.

    Secondly we have the struggling Kins that have trouble getting T1 fights down. They mean well but have a tendency to be undergeared, under-virtued, and traited somewhat badly. These are not the most skilled of players but they do have fun! These guys tend to go with Guardians regardless of actual tank balance because Guardians "just work" unless Wardens are vastly superior out-of-the-box. They will occasionally go with a Warden "because Bob wants to bring his Warden alt" and shake their collective heads in frustration and declare that "Wardens are inferior" afterwards.

    Thirdly the PUGs. Apart from the same reasons as the second group, PUG leaders have a tendency to go for a proven thing, so if Guardians are ever so slightly better they will be preferred. The prejudices against Wardens will be very hard to overcome so again here I expect it will take a lot of time for balanced Wardens to be accepted as equals. The play of a typical random Warden who enters a PUG can often hinder the cause unfortunately. Advanced classes are tricky and though everybody can - and should - enjoy them, they are harder to play well in a group setting as we all know.

    There is large group of raiding Kins that lie somewhere between the first and second groups. I don't see the balance between the tanks to be as important here as other factors such as player skill, gear, and attendance. I feel comfortable in my spot - especially for the raids I lead.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000002ab92d/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    211

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Regero View Post
    OMFG! CHECK IT! my posts are 1337!!!
    You must spread Reputation around and learn-2-play before you can give Rep to 1337 Wadens!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000002ab92d/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  21. #21

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Just curious ... do we have any verifiable proof yet that there will be DR on finesse? Anything from a dev? The one post in that other thread refrencing %'s made it seem like the numbers were all over the place and definitely no DR in there ... but it also only went up to 15% and the DR might not kick in until we are closer to cap. I will wait to see some more hard numbers going up to 25% before I would claim that the change hurts us more although I will stipulate that IF we can get higher BPE than guards in a solid build and IF there are DR applied to finesse, THEN we were hurt more. So far we only have speculation and some loose comparisons.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0720600000013903d/signature.png]Llothdeturtle[/charsig]
    Dwrunin - RK; Dwronin - 75 Guard; LLothalion - LM; LLothDeBlade Champ; Beriador - Min, Bowerd - Hunter

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,833

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Yes, the changes as stated will penalize high-stacked BPE more, because of the DR on BPE. Also, the inverse relationship of avoidances means the Warden will actually take more damage because of Finesse penalties.

    Say you have a Warden at 25/20/20 BPE, and a Guardian at 25/15/10 (numbers courtesy of my butt). Say a boss with high finesse knocks off 12%. Of course, BPE is additive, so in terms of total avoidances, the Warden goes from 65->53, and the Guardian from 50->38, which means their incoming DPS goes from 35->47 (34% more for WRD) and 50->62 (24% more for the GRD). GRDs have mits to compensate, which are percentile and so scale. WRDs have HOTs to make up for their incoming DPS, which are fixed-value and do not scale.

    So basically, not only do we lose more of our investment, but it hurts us more when we do.
    Last edited by droid; Sep 06 2011 at 02:58 PM.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,688

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Regero View Post
    One would think so, but if information gets out that one class is more capable than another it does result in raid leaders behaving differently and picking classes differently. It depends on the server and on the players involved, but even small single digit numbers like the ones currently in effect result in over all trends that tend to suck for the class on the losing end.
    people have always had their opinions about which class is better at what.. and the best part.. everyone seems to have a different opinion about it
    as long as wardens can do the job this will not change

    I think the devs almost had it perfect when wardens had, or were perceived to have, better BPE than guards and guards had better raw mitigation than wardens.
    i don't see how that has changed
    wardens still have a lot more bpe.. if you try to max it out on both about 18% more (edit: finesse doesn't affect that difference anymore) most of it because of evasion (of which guards have almost none) and considering evasion offers a lot more protection than block OR parry that's a fair trade if you ask me


    on a side note do not forget the partial bpe which is also much higher on a warden
    6+% considering guardians use a straight% skill which grants no partial block to reach their 25% block
    let's say partial avoidance mitigation sits at 50% (this is prolly still low for some people) this equates to an additional 0,06*50=3% statistical damage mitigation so all in all that's more than 20%
    and the guards high common mitigation doesn't help them against attacks that deal uncommon damage (non tactical of course)
    Last edited by flyingcircus; Sep 06 2011 at 10:56 PM.
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  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    England.
    Posts
    55

    Re: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    I'm struggling to get my head around this change to be honest and whilst I appreciate that the OP is addressing the concerns about the differences between wardens and guardians maybe we need to look at the wider implications to understand why the change has been implemented.

    Have we thought about what the implications of this revised finesse system has on;

    1. the squishies (mincers, RKs, LMs)
    2. the should-know-betters (hunters and burgs)
    3. the new breed of tanks (champs and cappies)

    I don't know enough about how champs and captains will be affected but maybe they were being too heavily impacted by boss finesse to be viable? Likewise, maybe under the original system squishies were being too heavily penalised for pulling aggro.

    If we have to take a bit of a hit in order to make the experience for 90% of the other players more agreeable then I guess I'd live with that.

    Cheers,
    Gin.
    Ginwar - Warden | Ginrunk - Rune Keeper | Ginras - Hunter
    Officer of [URL="http://thorinsshield.gamerdna.com/"]Thorin's Shield[/URL], Snowbourn, UK.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    79

    AW: Finesse changed, now hurts wardens more than guards

    The point of reference for all the comparisons and calculations here is always the situation without finesse, but this is not correct. After Isengard things don’t need to be balanced without finesse anymore.

    For a long time I wasn’t sure if partial B/P/E would still exist in Isengard. Obviously they do, and they have a huge influence on the damage taken, especially for wardens. I played around with the numbers a bit, and without finesse you can easily reach a point where a warden takes much less damage from his combination of higher B/P/E and medium armor than a guardian. So I rather think finesse is necessary because things would be very unbalanced in favor of the wardens without it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2a22300000010f977/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

 

 
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