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  1. #76
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    CtG is not supposed to be that long. It will likely not be adjusted until after the release of Isengard. (Sorry)
    Grats on baby!

    CtG's what is not supposed to be that long? I hope it's the cooldown. As long as it's an issue getting looked at, I am happy and don't care when.

  2. #77
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not actually in the office. (Out on paternity, but I will be lurking to answer questions over the next few days.)
    Congrats!!!!

    (now, please try to CtG fixed for us before launch )

    Best wishes!!

  3. #78
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    CtG Cooldown and reductions are the things that are too long. (Clarification)

  4. #79
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Thanks for taking time off your leave to answer these concerns by the way. It does make a lot of difference.

    Of all the changes we've seen so far, I'm most excited about the Minstrel and the LM, and it looks like the Minstrel will be the first I bring to 75.

  5. #80

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    CtG is not supposed to be that long. It will likely not be adjusted until after the release of Isengard. (Sorry)
    27 days til release and you cant fix this?

    Teldra

  6. #81
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    Crissaegrim is offline Defender of the Hornburg
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Teldra View Post
    27 days til release and you cant fix this?
    4+ years of playing, and you can't wait a couple of weeks or so for the hot fix?

    The man's at home with his family on personal leave; we're blessed that he took the time to even acknowledge our trivialities here. It's been acknowledged as incorrect, and will be fixed.

  7. #82
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    thanks Orion for clearing these things up. Your doing amazing work as the minstrel Dev.. keep it up

  8. #83
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Thank you for your post-must have taken a lot of time, extremely helpful to us. We've many changes to our skills. It sounds great as it will freshen up our class, make us re-think everything, and perhaps change how we play.

    One thing I don't think you've mentioned is our legendary legacies.

    Did you discover what will happen in Isengard to our existing minstrel books that have legacies EG Ballad of War, Ballad of Composure and Ballad of Flame.

    Also are there new legacies to replace these legacies?

  9. #84
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Teldra View Post
    27 days til release and you cant fix this?

    Teldra

    Its likely one of those situations where systems are cross-wired and they have to make sure they don't break a larger portion of the code by changing things. A similar bit happened to Champs back in Update 2 or 3 (can't recall which off the top of my head) where a key skill was bugged but it took a few weeks to make sure fixing it didn't break anything else in the process.

    I'd suspect this would be either in a hotfix right after Update 4/RoI or in a patch half a month later since most of the last big updates usually have seen a quick hotfix for anything beta testing missed and then a patch for the bigger bugs that crept in.
    "We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result... we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. " - E R Murrow

  10. #85
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Thanks for the great write up! It is greatly appreciated. Being our play-styles seem to be very similar I share your excitement regarding the WS changes. For me it all comes down to how my Mini will preform in the moors and I can't wait to try it out.

    /salute


    P.S.

    Thanks Orion for the little notes and congrats!
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  11. #86
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    A note or two on Armour of Song:

    1) All armour sources are increased by 20% including skill buffs.

    2) Wearing medium armour when RoI goes live will turn that armour into light armour and bind it to you.
    So, was my tentative explanation of it in the write up essentially correct? It adds 1/5th more mitigation from armour to the Minstrel than if they didn't have it traited, all else being equal?
    Narlinde, level 100 Minstrel, Rank 11, Member of Trucido ~ Windfola

  12. #87
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not actually in the office. (Out on paternity, but I will be lurking to answer questions over the next few days.)
    You too? :-)

    sorry for off topic....
    in my thoughts and in my dreams they´re always in my mind
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  13. #88
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Thank you for this amazing summary. Plus one rep to you

    and thanks Orion for all your hard work and especially for answering our questions while on leave.
    still loving my minnie

    And the minstrel sang to them……”and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.”

  14. #89
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkens View Post
    Its likely one of those situations where systems are cross-wired and they have to make sure they don't break a larger portion of the code by changing things. A similar bit happened to Champs back in Update 2 or 3 (can't recall which off the top of my head) where a key skill was bugged but it took a few weeks to make sure fixing it didn't break anything else in the process.

    I'd suspect this would be either in a hotfix right after Update 4/RoI or in a patch half a month later since most of the last big updates usually have seen a quick hotfix for anything beta testing missed and then a patch for the bigger bugs that crept in.
    Remember LM debuffs? and how changing it broke DN eyes? trust me no matter how much I try to follow object oriented programming changing something is generally going to break something in my program... I just need to find it
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d00000010afaf/01008/signature.png]Goneric[/charsig]

  15. #90
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not actually in the office. (Out on paternity, but I will be lurking to answer questions over the next few days.) The steep power cost is an issue that we will continue to monitor. Minstrels have a unique ability to overcome this in many ways and I think that the changes to instruments will help immensely.

    Dev Diary should drop tomorrow...and explain more. Rotations for endurance fights will require the minstrel to sacrifice top end DPS for longer sustained DPS by running the power reduction ballads.
    Hope the diary explains all. I'm sorry but I don't understand. Start by saying, couldn't care less about DPS. I'm a healer and I heal. So power costs are doubled? But I don't see yet anything that will make up for a 100% increase.

    Isn't the very definition of broken the inability to do your job? If healers can't heal how can anyone do their job? A 10% increase, no problem I'll go get the legacy. A 20% increase, I frown but I can live. 30% and that new coda looks nice, but 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100. OVERKILL? I don't understand how to overcome that, for healing, couldn't care less about DPS.

    Has the damage in game been cut in half? That's the only thing that would make sense to me.

    Thanks for taking the time to post, will be glad to see that diary.

  16. #91
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Jaw-droppingly amazing. You have me excited about playing my Minnie again!

    +1 rep. I'd give you more if I could.
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  17. #92

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not actually in the office. (Out on paternity, but I will be lurking to answer questions over the next few days.) The steep power cost is an issue that we will continue to monitor. Minstrels have a unique ability to overcome this in many ways and I think that the changes to instruments will help immensely.

    Dev Diary should drop tomorrow...and explain more. Rotations for endurance fights will require the minstrel to sacrifice top end DPS for longer sustained DPS by running the power reduction ballads.
    We appreciate the fact that there's feedback though the answer regarding the power issue is not very promising.

    As for the power reduction ballads mentioned please let me do some quick calculations:

    Pre Isen:
    - 10% Life Singer
    - 5% 2 Trait set bonus for watcher of Resolve
    - 15% for 5 piece DN set

    Post Isen (assuming 4 deep into Protector of Song for arguments sake and ignoring the fact that heal output will probably be quite a lot less than today then):
    -18 % for 3 power reduction ballads
    -10% 3 piece bonus of new raid set

    So by using the power reduction ballads and fully traiting for it (thus punishing healing output) we get just short of the power conservation potential of before Isen. How is this supposed to offset the 100% increase in power cost for the heals?

    The fact that there is a coda to give back power does not really count, since it will remove all your ballads and anthems - in a healing intensive fight (that's where power problems tend to occur) you just will not have the time to reapply them.

    For people who remind us that stats caps have been removed - the Fate to ICPR function has always been (will be after Isen) governed by a square root function so stacking fate to have a dramatically higher ICPR will just not work out. As we all know power pool size is mostly irrelevant in raid fights, so I will not comment on higher power pool from unlimited will.

    As for monitoring power consumption - if you don't believe the beta minis who tried to heal an instance and could not even with an LM doing nothing than feeding 'em power - you'd better get this sorted launch out before launch.

    Because for now the beta minstrel is a sad deja-vu of a captain during Shadows of Angmar - nice buffs, wait for people to die to rez but don't do anything else or you'lll be out of power. Btw. Captain at that time was the least played class for a reason because it was boring as hell.

    So maybe it's just time to play some other game...

  18. #93

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cize View Post
    So maybe it's just time to play some other game...
    Or at least another class if it does become a real issue.

    I'm willing to give Orion the benefit of the doubt. Beta play doesn't always reflect the way things will work out in Live play, so I'm waiting to see how all this pans out. If it does become something of a problem, it will likely be addressed in a post-launch update.

    I fully intend to play around with the new system and voice my opinion on what is good and what needs to be fixed.

  19. #94
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    The power issues aren't limited to minstrel. All classes seem to suffer from power issues with RoI. I'm hoping these are addressed before launch, or at the very least soon afterwards.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  20. #95
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cize View Post
    The fact that there is a coda to give back power does not really count, since it will remove all your ballads and anthems - in a healing intensive fight (that's where power problems tend to occur) you just will not have the time to reapply them.
    Believe me this is not the case its not spamming ballads to get the desired effect that you would like. The new set up makes it much easier to heal and use ballads at the same time. And you don't need too use the conventional heals either. I would honestly wait until RoI launches and have a shot at playing minstrel if I where you before you go off to another game. I am speaking as someone who has took part in the beta, wait!
    .
    Lvl 75 Alts:Rosebelle Shouting it up Warden. Hollybelle Pew Pewing Hunter. Sillian Bear Hugging LM. Ecgiel Stone Collecting RK.
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  21. #96
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by firehawk316 View Post
    Hope the diary explains all. I'm sorry but I don't understand. Start by saying, couldn't care less about DPS. I'm a healer and I heal. So power costs are doubled? But I don't see yet anything that will make up for a 100% increase.

    Isn't the very definition of broken the inability to do your job? If healers can't heal how can anyone do their job? A 10% increase, no problem I'll go get the legacy. A 20% increase, I frown but I can live. 30% and that new coda looks nice, but 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100. OVERKILL? I don't understand how to overcome that, for healing, couldn't care less about DPS.

    Has the damage in game been cut in half? That's the only thing that would make sense to me.

    Thanks for taking the time to post, will be glad to see that diary.
    As is made clear in the Diary (and honestly is pretty clear in the Guide), it is Max DPS/HPS that is sacrificed for power-recovery depending on which 3 Ballads you have active.

    It definitely looks like this system is much more nuanced than our current one.
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  22. #97
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenaril View Post
    It definitely looks like this system is much more nuanced than our current one.
    It is, quite plainly, as simple or as complicated as one chooses to make it. I find that amount of influence over the role by the player to be exciting.

  23. #98
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Great writeup! It was a fascinating read despite the fact that I was able to figure a lot of this out for myself while playing in beta.


    Now, I just hope I (and others I'm sure) can convince our fellowships to let me come along without healing. I can see myself enjoying an "anthem-twisting" role quite well, with off-heals, but until I get the rotations down I doubt I'd be able to main heal in PoS. However I'm hesitant to join groups of anyone other than kin, because they would say "we have a mini, no need for another healer" and I'd be stuck healing instead of putting up buffs.

    But hey, with kin, that shouldn't really be a problem.
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  24. #99

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    In 6-man fs it will maybe be possible for a capt to be main healer, with mincy as buffer and secondary healer
    Server: Evernight

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  25. #100
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    This is such a great thread! Thank you very much Narlinde! <3

    About the changes though..Am I correct in thinking that even though if you trait 3 blue and you get x% more healing for each major ballad this only applies if you're in Melody? I really hope this is not the case because, in my opinion, this would greatly reduce the attraction to actually change ballads in the middle of the fight to conserve power or heal/damage more.

    Let's say, hypothetically of course, you're in Melody and everything is going well but you used a lot of power before in a scary moment, now if you'd change to Perfect Ballads your power reduction would only go up with 6% while losing 21%? (not completly sure about this number) and that is if you had only major ballads before and change all of them to perfect ones.
    If you had a 1-2-1 choice before and change to 2-1-2 (with 1 being major and 2 being perfect ballads) you only gain a 2% power decrease for a 6% healing decrease! This is obviously just not worth it. You could say that it's easy to switch stances, in which I have to agree if you'd go from Harmony to Melody but I believe, I might be incorrect, that there is an induction on changing the other way around. Now..even if there isn't I still think this gives for unnecesary anthem changes, ballad total buffs, etc. Thus this would really be awkard to do.
    edit: I just realised I'm a bit wrong about the numbers since you can only trait as far as 4-3 into two lines but I believe the point still stands since it would still be a 2 or 3% big change for each ballad.

    Again, I'm not sure this is the case but from what I understood so far it seems to be so.
    I'd really appriciate if someone could inform me if this is correct or not and if Orion could pleaaaase pleaaaase change it if it is indeed like this.
    I understand that it won't be possible to change before Isen but even if it will be months later, as long as it happens, I'd be happy.

    Now that that concern is out of the way, I also have a suggestion for the 'boring' Echoes of battle skill in Harmony stance.

    When I first read that it would just be the normal non-war-speech one I was quite dissapointed, especially after seeing the other great stance changes. I did however not find an immidiat possible change for it.
    Reading the newest Dev-diary today though an idea popped in my mind. Why not change the skill in Harmony so that if you'd put it on an ally it would give them some power reduction on skills or a power give back (as with the hunter legendary trait) or even put it on a mob and attacking it gives power back like with Morskor (This has to be lower then Morkskors one of course!). The basic damage skill is just so low that I don't think anyone will ever use it and the power reduction/give back seems to fit in just perfectly with Harmony! (This is all my personal opinion of course ^_^).

    Constructive critism highly welcome!

    All the other changes so far seem just great to me and I'm soooo exited to try them out! I just can't wait! Thank you for putting this much time and thought into our class Orion and a big congratulations with the new family member <3
    Last edited by Tingilinde; Sep 02 2011 at 07:47 AM. Reason: Making it slightly readable :)
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