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  1. #51

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Much will depend on how fights are designed going forward.
    Last edited by ConstantiaChlorus; Dec 09 2011 at 11:39 PM.
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  2. #52

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    I do have a question regarding power consumption. Exactly how large should our power pools be by the time we reach 75? Would it be possible to accrue a large enough pool to offset power consumption (or high enough ICPR failing that) to offset power concern?
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  3. #53

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by hillard1959 View Post
    I do have a question regarding power consumption. Exactly how large should our power pools be by the time we reach 75? Would it be possible to accrue a large enough pool to offset power consumption (or high enough ICPR failing that) to offset power concern?
    I saw some huge power pools and you can really stack the will. With buffs I think we'll see some min maxer minstrels with power pools hitting around 10,000, but to do that they may be walking around with 4000/5000 morale. It still won't offset the power sink.
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  4. #54

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by GEARS1980 View Post
    I saw some huge power pools and you can really stack the will. With buffs I think we'll see some min maxer minstrels with power pools hitting around 10,000, but to do that they may be walking around with 4000/5000 morale. It still won't offset the power sink.
    That's... disheartening.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan View Post
    OK, so, Chord of Salvation, when cast on someone, will also give a small HoT to the people around the recipient of the heal. This works in War-speech, too. When it is Chord of My Salvation, you can give yourself the nice heal and everyone else can get the little HoT, too.
    Very interesting change on CoS. I like it. It's going to be very useful for trash fights in 3-man content too. No more toggling of WS on and off just to heal group members for minor damages.


    You can, in fact, keep up your PoT restore 100% of the time, but you're going to be sacrificing a LOT to do that. If you Ballad up, use Anthem of Comosure, then use Coda for the power restore over and over again in between heals, you'll not be getting the full use out of your self-applied Ballad buffs for power reduction, outgoing healing, and tactical damage. Nor will you be able to buff yourself and you Fellowship members well with your Anthems. But yes, it pretty much IS a cure for our power woes. You just have to make a choice between power efficiency and optimal healing/buffing ability. I think that most Minstrels will learn to think ahead about using it. The buff that Anthem of Composure gives is pretty nice, so I think that it will be one of the ones we'll want to try to keep up. If we are anticipating that we'll be using a Coda anyway (for an extra heal, for example), then we can make sure that Anthem of Composure is up so we can get the power restore. I very much doubt that people will be using Ballads, Anthems, and Coda JUST for this.
    Well obviously "all the time" is a hyberbole, but "most of the time" looks totally feasible. I'm not expecting a zero-sum game with the power management here. I fully expect to run out of power eventually - it's just a matter of how soon - and in this regard, this HoT effect with technically unlimited recastability does look sufficient in delaying that inevitability.

    Is there's a limit to how many Anthem effects we can stack onto the Coda? Because if there isn't, then Anthems with 30s duration and 5s cooldown essentially means PoS minstrels get to cash out on the effects of all 6 anthems simultaneously once every 30s. That is beyond awesome, and I see no reason not to cash out at all. It takes just three instant-cast Ballads to open up the Anthems again afterwards regardless, which doesn't appear to me a huge sacrifice to time or anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan View Post
    I find the changes to Call to Greatness the most upsetting part of this update. First of all, the cooldown on the skill has been raised from 5 mintues to 10 minutes. Secondly, the 2-equipped set bonus for Protector of Song only reduces the cooldown by 20 seconds. Those two things might both be bugs that our lovely developer will eventually fix (cross your fingers!), but the third change is deliberate. You will no longer be able to reset cooldowns by using Call to Greatness. *snipped* I’ve not been able to test with a Lore-master to see if it still resets their Blinding Flash, but I imagine that it doesn’t if they’ve changed how it works with Chord of Salvation.
    Orion needs to come in and clarify all three of these issues right now. I've been thinking about this all day yesterday and it really does bother me.

    The changes to cooldown and PoS bonus look to be unintentional based on the quote I copied earlier.

    CtG needs to reset cooldown. Is this specifically communicated to beta-testers as deliberate change? If so, what is the rationale? Especially with the LM, CtG acts as a back-up in case of resists. There is no way for a Minstrel to know which LM is going to need help before the resist happens.

  6. #56
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan View Post
    Are we viable for fulfilling the role of main-DPS in a group setting? Maybe. In a 3-man group, yes, definitely. Three-man instances, of necessity, must be balanced around limited roles and a Minstrel can absolutely be DPS in them. In a 6-man group we will never be sought after by people as DPS, but I think that we will be able to fulfill the role adequately. To fill that DPS slot in a Fellowship, you'll need to get your Will as high as possible, sacrificing defense for offense and you MUST trait 5-deep into Warrior-skald to do it. Protector of Song/Harmony is not really about fulfilling a main-DPS role, but rather an off-DPS role. Think of Warrior-skald as our "lightening-traited Rune-keeper" DPS line and Protector of Song as our "Captain-hybrid of Awesome buffs with a bit of healing and a bit of DPS thrown in" line. Built for Will, tactical offense, and tactical crit, with Legendary Items enhancing your DPS function and a high enough base ICPR to help with your power issues, you will be able to fill that DPS slot (but not as well as classes whose primary role is DPS, ie, not as well as Hunters, Champions, Rune-keepers, or Burglars). When you see your first dev crit with Coda of Fury, you'll feel like an RK, it's kinda awesome. In raids, I don't believe that we have either enough DPS OR enough power sustainability for us to fill the role of main-DPS in long fights.
    Thank you for responding.. grealy appreciated. I agree that a mini cannot be the main dps role in some raids or certain fellowships.. but do make valuable backup dps support as do other dps classes.

  7. #57
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    Dec 2008
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    140

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    First ... Cloudie, thank you very much for this guide. I have bookmarked it and will re-read it many times I am sure. +1 rep.

    Second ... a question. ALL my minstrels (see below - there are many) wear medium armour, always. On first login after the expansion is released, will every one of them be nekkid? Or will Turbine replace my armour or just change the stats? I cannot afford to re-clothe all my toons!

    I have 7 minstrels, of varying levels - the highest is 55. I love the class however, although I seem to do a fine job, I have no idea of any of the technicalities of the class - I simply know and feel what works and it usually does. My head is spinning from all the details but, as I said, I am sure I will re-read them many times and eventually get the hang of it.
    Last edited by Aery-Chiasma; Aug 30 2011 at 10:37 PM.

  8. #58
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    3,025

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Aery-Chiasma View Post
    Second ... a question. ALL my minstrels (see below - there are many) wear medium armour, always. On first login after the expansion is released, will every one of them be nekkid? Or will Turbine replace my armour or just change the stats? I cannot afford to re-clothe all my toons!
    I am pretty sure I heard somewhere that any Medium Armour that you are wearing on your characters on launch day will automatically be converted to Light Armour, it's just that anything not actually equipped will no longer be wearable.
    Narlinde, level 100 Minstrel, Rank 11, Member of Trucido ~ Windfola

  9. #59
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan View Post
    I am pretty sure I heard somewhere that any Medium Armour that you are wearing on your characters on launch day will automatically be converted to Light Armour, it's just that anything not actually equipped will no longer be wearable.
    Alas, I had heard that minstrels that transferred to Bullroarer logged in to find themselves half-naked due to medium armor restrictions.

  10. #60

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Crissaegrim View Post
    Alas, I had heard that minstrels that transferred to Bullroarer logged in to find themselves half-naked due to medium armor restrictions.
    They did, prompting Orion to post to CSTM that medium armour will be changed to light when you log in on your Minstrel.

    Goldenstar,

    We changed that. If you log in with medium armour on your character it will be converted to light armour and bound to you.
    http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/...w-screenshots/

    You'll have to scroll through the comments to see the quote there.
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  11. #61
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    Dec 2008
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Ugh. But, thank you for the answers.

    Unfortunately, I wear primarily quest armour and won't be able to choose new armour from quests already done. Currently I am not questing either so that I can replace it - and how would I quest anyway (Eregion and Moria generally require clothes!)? I gave up on finding any way to get my class quest done (on any toon - not one is completed because I was having to buy the components on the AH and they were either not there or too expensive) so I am doing skirmishes (which are not to my liking but there is not much else I can do to get the items when there are no Carn Dum runs and I am always less than flush). I won't be able to continue skirmishing either - most of my stats are in my equipment. This could be quite unsettling.

    This might be ok if my toons were level 20 or level 65 - but they aren't - all are between 31 and 55. Not quite sure what I am going to do about this if indeed the armour just vanishes. None of it can be resold if it just lands in inventory. I don't keep a set of light armour (have never needed it for soloing or the occasional PUG for a quest or two).

    But, thanks again. This makes me sad because I know I will not want to play if this happens. I realize that not many of us probably play multiples of the same class so perhaps they didn't anticipate a major issue with this but I hope Orion reads this and understands that it WILL affect some of us VIPs with several years into the game. I just signed up for the next year too. Perhaps they can do something still if they realize this.
    Last edited by Aery-Chiasma; Aug 31 2011 at 12:22 AM.

  12. #62

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    The Call to Greatness changes are all very upsetting and will likely result in my not using it. I certainly won't use it even a fourth as often as I do now with it not resetting the cooldown on Chord of Salvation.
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  13. #63

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    The Call to Greatness changes are all very upsetting and will likely result in my not using it. I certainly won't use it even a fourth as often as I do now with it not resetting the cooldown on Chord of Salvation.
    It still pretty much does the same thing when used on Captains, so I'm going to continue using it for that purpose. I love nothing more than throwing it on a Captain when emergency heals are needed.
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  14. #64

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    The Call to Greatness changes are all very upsetting and will likely result in my not using it. I certainly won't use it even a fourth as often as I do now with it not resetting the cooldown on Chord of Salvation.
    Yeah the changes to CtG really really blow. It's such a fun little utility skill. The problem with any long cooldown skill is that because the cooldown is long you tend to not want to use it until it's really really needed. You wait so long that you often never use it. That was the whole point about reducing cooldowns to manageable levels. We just went through a cycle of reducing cool downs to make every skill viable and then they do this. I really don't get the justification.

    I'd much rather keep CtG shortish and FH longish the way it is now. FH is the big "oh no oh no oh no" emergency skill I'm not sure I'm really down with using it all the time. CtG has small benefits that are nuanced for each class- there really is no justification for making it not used.
    Adaaon (Minstrel), Gwydionn (Hunter), Tarrann (Burglar)
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  15. #65
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    This is an amazing guide. A hearty thank you for the time and effort to do this! After reading this I agree that minstrels are no longer an easy class (though to play them correctly they never truly were).

    I'm depressed about the fact that all my minstrel armor pieces, which are medium armor, will no longer be wearable. Would like to be able to go back in time and rechoose. Perhaps they'll do something such as allowing you to keep wearing a medium armor item until you unequip it? Rift did something similar when they had some armor bugs that allowed my bard to wear armor he shouldn't. Long term this should pose no problem, since we'll be moving on to new pieces very quickly anyway.
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  16. #66
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Thanks, Cloudie, for taking the time with the thread to inform those of us who aren't in the beta.

    I am disappointed Orion didn't keep to the second revision of the bubble. 1700 - 1900 absorbed damage isn't much in terms of PvE and especially in PvP. Minstrel's survivability is going down due to this as well as increased power cost for heals. I can either keep damaging a creep that has 12k+ morale and outputting a heavy amount of damage, or try to heal myself a few times and end up running out of power and then dying.

    From the picture about warspeech, looks like they changed the animation and the induction for casting it. I'm not a big fan of change, and I liked the rock/paper/scissors animation with the swirling ground and horns. I am bummed about this, since the longer induction means no minstrel will dare to think of dropping warspeech anymore to help out a fellow.

    This will make solo'ng quite depressing, and I haven't had a positive outlook on the game. I'll check back regularly for updates, changes, and more opinions about the minstrel changes. However, it is likely my break will extend beyond the RoI launch indefinitely.


  17. #67

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Familiarity View Post
    Thanks, Cloudie, for taking the time with the thread to inform those of us who aren't in the beta.

    I am disappointed Orion didn't keep to the second revision of the bubble. 1700 - 1900 absorbed damage isn't much in terms of PvE and especially in PvP. Minstrel's survivability is going down due to this as well as increased power cost for heals. I can either keep damaging a creep that has 12k+ morale and outputting a heavy amount of damage, or try to heal myself a few times and end up running out of power and then dying.

    From the picture about warspeech, looks like they changed the animation and the induction for casting it. I'm not a big fan of change, and I liked the rock/paper/scissors animation with the swirling ground and horns. I am bummed about this, since the longer induction means no minstrel will dare to think of dropping warspeech anymore to help out a fellow.
    I agree with you on the bubble. I was expecting 4 times base power but i guess they reduced it because we got a 1 min cd on it. Going to miss the old bubble which saved my life so often in PvP.

    I dont know where you got the idea that they changed warspeech induction or animation in anyway? The induction is still the same 5s so the animation will probably also be the same. I like the fact we don't have the tail affect and only a 10s cd on it, this will make me drop warspeech more often to save someone.

  18. #68

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Familiarity View Post
    Thanks, Cloudie, for taking the time with the thread to inform those of us who aren't in the beta.

    I am disappointed Orion didn't keep to the second revision of the bubble. 1700 - 1900 absorbed damage isn't much in terms of PvE and especially in PvP. Minstrel's survivability is going down due to this as well as increased power cost for heals. I can either keep damaging a creep that has 12k+ morale and outputting a heavy amount of damage, or try to heal myself a few times and end up running out of power and then dying.

    From the picture about warspeech, looks like they changed the animation and the induction for casting it. I'm not a big fan of change, and I liked the rock/paper/scissors animation with the swirling ground and horns. I am bummed about this, since the longer induction means no minstrel will dare to think of dropping warspeech anymore to help out a fellow.

    This will make solo'ng quite depressing, and I haven't had a positive outlook on the game. I'll check back regularly for updates, changes, and more opinions about the minstrel changes. However, it is likely my break will extend beyond the RoI launch indefinitely.
    From what I understand our WS damage will be through the roof.
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  19. #69

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Can't list enough adjectives to describe how wonderful your minstrel guide is, Narlinde! Thank you for taking the time to write it! Now I won't be in a state of shock when I log on on launch day.
    "Fate is like a strange, unpopular restaurant filled with odd little waiters who bring you things you never asked for and don't always like." L. Snicket
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  20. #70
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamiya View Post
    Thanks for write-up.

    Looks like a few things didn't turn out the way they were initially proposed to be.

    i. Hammerhand was supposed to be a gamble for real power return. There's no point in using it if it doesn't give bonus power after expiration. I might as well just BC myself to heal back that 2k morale instead of putting up a shield for no reason.
    ii. The 4-traitline improvement to Tale of Warding was removed because we were supposed to get the Improved Tale at higher level (thus no need to trait for it).

    There are the two I can remember off the top of my head.


    The increase to CtG cooldown is a major bummer too. I worked so hard for the OD set just for it. There has never been any mention of this change in any of the dev diaries.


    Hopefully these are all oversights and beta-players have bugged them.



    EDIT: Some relevant quotes



    Here Orion says that he's planning on shorter cooldown for CtG, and PoS 4-deep tale bonus as 66+ enhancements. CtG is one of the few ways for a PoS minstrel to make up for loss of healing by letting the captains spam their heals instead. I honestly don't see an increased cooldown as beneficial to the PoS line in any way.

    Can't find anything on the Hammerhand part. There are however some posts saying it's just a wager to get that power cost back if shield remains in tact, so I might have misunderstood the original intent all along.
    CtG is not supposed to be that long. It will likely not be adjusted until after the release of Isengard. (Sorry)

  21. #71

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    CtG is not supposed to be that long. It will likely not be adjusted until after the release of Isengard. (Sorry)
    Orion, what's your take on the power issue? Was healing costs meant to be that steep? If so, can you explain why? What did you have in mind to help offset such a steep power cost? (I understand you're working on instruments, but I'd like to know what your thoughts are on rotations and such for endurance fights.)
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  22. #72
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    Jul 2006
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    954

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    A note or two on Armour of Song:

    1) All armour sources are increased by 20% including skill buffs.

    2) Wearing medium armour when RoI goes live will turn that armour into light armour and bind it to you.

  23. #73
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    Jul 2006
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    954

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by hillard1959 View Post
    Orion, what's your take on the power issue? Was healing costs meant to be that steep? If so, can you explain why? What did you have in mind to help offset such a steep power cost? (I understand you're working on instruments, but I'd like to know what your thoughts are on rotations and such for endurance fights.)
    I'm not actually in the office. (Out on paternity, but I will be lurking to answer questions over the next few days.) The steep power cost is an issue that we will continue to monitor. Minstrels have a unique ability to overcome this in many ways and I think that the changes to instruments will help immensely.

    Dev Diary should drop tomorrow...and explain more. Rotations for endurance fights will require the minstrel to sacrifice top end DPS for longer sustained DPS by running the power reduction ballads.

  24. #74

    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not actually in the office. (Out on paternity, but I will be lurking to answer questions over the next few days.) The steep power cost is an issue that we will continue to monitor. Minstrels have a unique ability to overcome this in many ways and I think that the changes to instruments will help immensely.

    Dev Diary should drop tomorrow...and explain more. Rotations for endurance fights will require the minstrel to sacrifice top end DPS for longer sustained DPS by running the power reduction ballads.
    So, not actually all that different from now in a few respects. Thank you, Orion.
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  25. #75
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    Re: Visual Guide To Minstrels in Rise of Isengard

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not actually in the office. (Out on paternity, but I will be lurking to answer questions over the next few days.) The steep power cost is an issue that we will continue to monitor. Minstrels have a unique ability to overcome this in many ways and I think that the changes to instruments will help immensely.

    Dev Diary should drop tomorrow...and explain more. Rotations for endurance fights will require the minstrel to sacrifice top end DPS for longer sustained DPS by running the power reduction ballads.
    Congratulations, Orion, and thank you very much for taking time out of your day to leave us these notes.

 

 
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