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  1. #101

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Me_the_Third View Post
    I'm curious, is that really how it works? And if so, is it the same way for tactical damage? So if I had 55% partial mit and 45% tactical mit I'd take no damage? If that's true, then Wardens are effectively receiving an extra 20% bpe if they use appropriate relics.
    Yeah thats how it works though if the damage type is not common it would use the mitigation from the relevant damage type (fire / shadow / acid etc.). But it won't work with tactical because you can not BPE tactical attacks
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2921e00000010cfd1/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    EU Forum Handle: Bailey
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/home/character/2623925/152559437378277329/]Warden[/url]

  2. #102

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolfast View Post
    Yeah thats how it works though if the damage type is not common it would use the mitigation from the relevant damage type (fire / shadow / acid etc.). But it won't work with tactical because you can not BPE tactical attacks
    Thanks for clarifying that. With the tactical example I was thinking of bosses who do non-common damage on melee attacks, like the last boss of NCF. Anyways, if we judge by Mistden's ratings, Warden bpe could actually be 90.4%. I think Guards may need some buffing...
    Last edited by Me_the_Third; Sep 05 2011 at 12:48 PM.

  3. #103
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    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Me_the_Third View Post
    Thanks for clarifying that. With the tactical example I was thinking of bosses who do non-common damage on melee attacks, like the last boss of NCF. Anyways, if we judge by Mistden's ratings, Warden bpe could actually be 90.4%. I think Guards may need some buffing...
    b/p/e each cap at 25% so our max avoidance level is 75% which the closest I've got is about 65%. Partials are another check and caps at 10% I believe.

  4. #104

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    That post puts EVERYTHING in to a real perspective, thank you Myst. I'll not post in the guards forum again unless I'm asking a guardian specific question. This just proves that the ones crying the hardest are completely full of ____. I can't believe I allowed myself to be so duped.

  5. #105

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    b/p/e each cap at 25% so our max avoidance level is 75% which the closest I've got is about 65%. Partials are another check and caps at 10% I believe.
    I'll show how I got to 90%. You had 65% bpe, not counting partials. However, according to Tolfast, the partial mitigation scores and common/tactical mits are additive. You had 55% partial mit on all your bpe scores, and also had 32% tactical mit. But the tactical mit was without using our shiny new tactical defense gambit or scrolls, and I doubt you were using a tactical mit Warden carving either. All of those together will bring tactical mit close to 45%, which combined with the 55% partial mitigation means that you'll take no damage on partials. So, adding in the partial scores to the base bpe gets you to 90%.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    211

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    b/p/e each cap at 25% so our max avoidance level is 75% which the closest I've got is about 65%. Partials are another check and caps at 10% I believe.
    I have a question about those Guardian screenshots you posted: It shows a Block chance of 25% w/ Ward etc. which is lower than the raw Block plus the bonuses. Is it the same now where the extra percentages are not shown beyond 15% or did they change the cap so Guardians can't go over the cap any longer? (May be a silly question but I don't have a Guardian).
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000002ab92d/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  7. #107
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    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Me_the_Third View Post
    I'll show how I got to 90%. You had 65% bpe, not counting partials. However, according to Tolfast, the partial mitigation scores and common/tactical mits are additive. You had 55% partial mit on all your bpe scores, and also had 32% tactical mit. But the tactical mit was without using our shiny new tactical defense gambit or scrolls, and I doubt you were using a tactical mit Warden carving either. All of those together will bring tactical mit close to 45%, which combined with the 55% partial mitigation means that you'll take no damage on partials. So, adding in the partial scores to the base bpe gets you to 90%.
    I did not have the tac carving or shield tactics running. If tactical damage cannot be b/p/e'd does the partial affect tactical damage? I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I don't know exactly how all the mitigations/avoidances/resistances play together.

  8. #108
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    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorietta View Post
    I have a question about those Guardian screenshots you posted: It shows a Block chance of 25% w/ Ward etc. which is lower than the raw Block plus the bonuses. Is it the same now where the extra percentages are not shown beyond 15% or did they change the cap so Guardians can't go over the cap any longer? (May be a silly question but I don't have a Guardian).
    Guardian block stance and guardians ward add directly to the percentages and not to the rating. All warden buffs, legacies, and stances add to a rating. Thats why you can see a guard with 8k block rating and 25% block percentage. If some guard reads this and wants to add/correct something please do so. I don't play a guard either.

  9. #109

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    I did not have the tac carving or shield tactics running. If tactical damage cannot be b/p/e'd does the partial affect tactical damage? I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I don't know exactly how all the mitigations/avoidances/resistances play together.
    The tactical damage I'm talking about is just the bosses who don't do common damage. I believe you'd use tactical mit in that situation, though I might've just misunderstood something about all of this.
    Last edited by Me_the_Third; Sep 05 2011 at 01:49 PM.

  10. #110

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Me_the_Third View Post
    The tactical damage I'm talking about is just the bosses who don't do common damage. I believe you'd use tactical mit in that situation, though I might've just misunderstood something about all of this.

    Slightly:

    There are two damages Arch Types in RoI

    Physical and Tactical

    After that there are several types of damge.

    You may get hit with a Physical attack of type shadow damage (this can be B/P/E)
    You may get hit with a tactical attack of type shadow damage (this can not be B/P/E)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2921e00000010cfd1/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    EU Forum Handle: Bailey
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/home/character/2623925/152559437378277329/]Warden[/url]

  11. #111

    Re: New warden info?

    If they dont change it avoidance will keep beeing mulitplitive not additive. This mean max avoidance will be (including partials):
    1-((0,75^3)*(0,9^3)) ~70%
    Not
    25+25+25+10+10+10 = 95%

    Without partials
    58%
    Not
    75%

    This again hurts wardens more then guards
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  12. #112

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solyaris View Post
    If they dont change it avoidance will keep beeing mulitplitive not additive. This mean max avoidance will be (including partials):
    1-((0,75^3)*(0,9^3)) ~70%
    Not
    25+25+25+10+10+10 = 95%

    Without partials
    58%
    Not
    75%

    This again hurts wardens more then guards
    Nope. It has been stated many times in the past avoidances are additive
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    EU Forum Handle: Bailey
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/home/character/2623925/152559437378277329/]Warden[/url]

  13. #113

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolfast View Post
    Nope. It has been stated many times in the past avoidances are additive
    Check for yourself, its easy with combatanalysis since it tracks all hits (even if they are missed/partialy blocked ect). Ive done it on several types of mobs, with the same result, it follows a perfect mulitiplitive pathern. Its the same with miss-chance on mob (if you have 2 debuffs with 10% its a total of 19% misschance) or disable (3 disables = -49% outgoing melee dmg).

    It also makes most sence, else it would be over-powered (a warden should be able, or close to able, to get max avoidance with the update)
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  14. #114

    Re: New warden info?

    There is a quote from a dev somewhere that confirms BPE is additive, though I can't remember where it is. Hopefully someone in this thread will know where it is


    Debuffs as you correctly state have DR for multiple stacks
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    EU Forum Handle: Bailey
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/home/character/2623925/152559437378277329/]Warden[/url]

  15. #115
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    Re: New warden info?

    Some quick numbers, more for myself, but will share it. Maybe someone finds it usefull, but maybe its here in thread before...

    GRD with Guardian's Ward:
    51,4 % Physical mitigation
    51,1% Tactical mitigation
    25% Block
    17,8% Parry
    5,1% Evade
    --------------
    47,8% chance to avoid attack
    42,7% chance to get usefull response

    WRD with all self-buffs
    40% Physical mitigation
    ~38% (with new buff?) tacitcal mitigation
    25% Block
    19,8% Parry
    20% Evade
    --------------------
    64,8% chance to avoid a hit



    Getting 100 hits of 1000 damage it would be something like this:
    PHYSICAL
    WRD
    Out of 100 hits the warden would avoid 64,8%
    35/100 hits would get through, thats 35000 damage.
    35000 x 0,6 = 21000 damage

    GRD
    Avoid 47,8%
    52% gets through, 52000
    52000 x 0,486 = 25272


    TACTICAL
    WRD: 100000 x 0,62 = 62000 damage
    GRD: 100000 x 0,489 = 48900 damage
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WRD gets 83000
    GRD gets 74172


    (With self-buffs)
    A warden would win in the physical department while fully self-buffed. A GRD wins in the tactical department with his only self buff. This is 4 warden buffs with high upkeep cost/time, sarcrificing threat, DPS or self-healing. The Guardian only has to keep up a single buff with low upkeep cost/time. As for total damage (this is assuming 50% of the dmg is physical and 50% is tactical, which is unrealistic ofc) the guardian wins.

    (Without self-buffs)
    I do not have the wardens unbuffed stats, but guardians ward adds alot less then the wardens buffs, this means unbuffed the difference (especially in physical mititgations) would be alot bigger. Since physical counts more then tactical in current end-game and most instances, it also means Guardians have an edge over Wardens unbuffed, the Warden can make that up by a high-cost rotation that puts them slightly above Guardians, this is however not realistic to keep up all the time.
    Lieutenant Altarias, Swift Executioner
    Warden

    Master-at-arms Aristaer, the Unwise
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    All fighting with his Shield Brothers on [EN-RP] Laurelin.

    And from the Great Eye,

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  16. #116

    Re: New warden info?

    I think I'll try one more time to try to get what I'm saying across, as I didn't explain it very well before.

    We'll say that a Warden gets hit 100 times. Of those attacks, 25 will be blocked, 20 will be parried and 20 will be evaded. However, an additional 10 of those attacks will be partially blocked, but because of mitigations and stuff no damage will be taken from them. This also goes for the 15ish attacks that get partially evaded or parried. Altogether, the Warden only took damage from 10 of the attacks. Hopefully someone will get what I'm trying to say now, though I've never been very good at explaining things.

  17. #117
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    2,414

    Re: New warden info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Me_the_Third View Post
    I think I'll try one more time to try to get what I'm saying across, as I didn't explain it very well before.

    We'll say that a Warden gets hit 100 times. Of those attacks, 25 will be blocked, 20 will be parried and 20 will be evaded. However, an additional 10 of those attacks will be partially blocked, but because of mitigations and stuff no damage will be taken from them. This also goes for the 15ish attacks that get partially evaded or parried. Altogether, the Warden only took damage from 10 of the attacks. Hopefully someone will get what I'm trying to say now, though I've never been very good at explaining things.
    People 'round here should be used to this sort of "effective block." There was a whole bit of drama when a GRD proved they could break the block cap (even more than normal) by stacking Partial Block Mitigation to "absorb" common-damage attacks on partial blocks (exactly what you're describing here). That was only common damage, though. Here, we're talking about the same effect for all damage types (but not all attacks - "spells" that are not subject to BPE but only Resistance will still get through). That's... awe-inspiring.
    Last edited by ANewMachine; Sep 06 2011 at 07:20 PM.
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  18. #118
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    Re: New warden info?

    bump for easy to find screenshots

  19. #119
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    Re: New warden info?

    Bump b/c still relevant

 

 
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