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  1. #1

    What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    I was thinking about the various things I might keep in Battle Memory. I can think of 3 good uses for the new feature:

    1) Quick opening
    Open with a 5-gambit opener while still keeping all your masteries off CD. This gives you an edge on threat. Open with EoB, Desolation, Warden's Triumph, or even Defiant Challenge.

    2) Reactionary skills
    Keep an interrupt, corruption removal, or force taunt in battle memory for when you need something -now-

    3) More gambits
    Use battle memory to execute more gambits per second. Work it into a regular rotation. Something like this:

    Deft Strike - Warden's Triumph (Store) - Power Attack - Mighty Blow - Unerring Strike - Wardens Triumph (BM) - Repeat

    4) Utility
    Have a useful skill in Battle Memory like Conviction, Shield Mastery, or Desolation waiting in your battle memory for just the right time.
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  2. #2

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Surely it will depend on the situation. I guess I'd keep an interrupting skill on mobs I know will induct something or keep a conviction ready to be spammed.

  3. #3
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    If BM comes in at the same time as the bleed-stacking changes, then I imagine most people will probably keep US in their memory so they can go through the bleed sequence without having to manually build PA

  4. #4

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    The 5% morale cost is still valid isn't it?
    So as a maintank warden, I would use this morale as a break even point orientation.
    In other words, I'm going to use Battle Memory only if the gain outshines the 5% cost.

    My first guess is that heal Gambits are not worth it, unless Convictions heals the whole group and not just me.
    Also interrupt Gambits seems to be tempting, but I would rather save the Sp+Sh mastery for the boot as I did before. Too bad that Wall of Steel may only interrupt with the first hit. If that one missed/get BPEed, you would be stuck with a long animation and couldn't do anything about it.

    Speaking of WoS, the use of MB for the usual Def Gambits doesn't appear to be wise aswell. We are perfectly able to maintain a certain level of BPE with the gambits of our choice. I for one am not prepared to pay around ~500 morale every 40/60/120 seconds just to save some time keeping my defenses up, which are in the end just triggered by chance in contrast to the guaranteed 5% subtraction.

    That leaves me with this new proposed tact-def + temporary stun immunity gambit - Shield Tactics.
    The rather long gambit seems to be worth the effort of testing its BM usefulness.
    The obvious but situational use would be to avoid a stun. You should be able to predict it in some way, so it has to be an inductional skill or a debuff.
    In the theoretical stun time, if I suffered more than 5% of my absolute morale (with no BPE what so ever), that would be worth the cost.

    Needless to say, my opinion is based on the given information and assumptions and is subject to change.
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  5. #5

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    I can see the battle memory being more helpful when running through trash pulls. Being able to have an EoB ready to go would be, or even defiant challenge if you use it would making getting agro at the beginning of a fight much easier.

    Being as it has a morale cost I can't see using it effectively in a rotation during any kind of boss fight that is shelling out a lot of damage, but again it might be handy to have an important gambit stored up just for the right occasion.
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  6. #6
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Currently i have no big plans on using battle memory.
    The advantage of using it is :
    Instant gambits
    No power cost.

    The disadvantages are:
    Loose 5% of morale when used
    Long process to access it as it requires potency, then performing the desired gambit

    Of course i will try it out but my initial ideas is using it to reduce my power consumption once i have full aggro.

  7. #7
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    For me, It will definitely be gambits I'll need to use in a snap - most likely an interrupt or a snap aggro skill, depending on the fight / stage of fight.
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  8. #8

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    You know, I really wasn't thinking bout the costs of this skill. They are pretty steep:

    1) 5% morale is fairly steep, translating to 250-500 morale depending on build.
    2) Working in a double gambit is expensive:
    2a) Manually built is long and poor DPS
    2b) Double mastery requires a trait
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  9. #9
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harperelle View Post
    You know, I really wasn't thinking bout the costs of this skill. They are pretty steep:

    1) 5% morale is fairly steep, translating to 250-500 morale depending on build.
    2) Working in a double gambit is expensive:
    2a) Manually built is long and poor DPS
    2b) Double mastery requires a trait
    This is why Battle Mastery persisting between fights is so important. As the last of the trash goes down, you quickly trigger Potency and then save your gambit for the next fight. If you had to re-acquire it every fight, I'd probably never use it except for an emergency skill of some sort. Otherwise, you're just shifting *when* you have to build the gambit in the fight, and that's not worth the morale cost.
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  10. #10
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by ANewMachine View Post
    This is why Battle Mastery persisting between fights is so important. As the last of the trash goes down, you quickly trigger Potency and then save your gambit for the next fight. If you had to re-acquire it every fight, I'd probably never use it except for an emergency skill of some sort. Otherwise, you're just shifting *when* you have to build the gambit in the fight, and that's not worth the morale cost.
    I disagree. Being able to use an interrupt now vs when an induction is going off could very well be the difference between a wipe and a victory.
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  11. #11
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoboy View Post
    I disagree. Being able to use an interrupt now vs when an induction is going off could very well be the difference between a wipe and a victory.
    This qualifies as an "emergency skill" for me. I should've been more clear, sorry. I can restate as "a skill that I may *need* unexpectedly." But I'm not going to keep any fight-openers or the like in my Battle Memory. I do well enough grabbing aggro now, I don't need EoB on a one-button press.
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  12. #12

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    I will probably only use it in raids with lots of heals where the morale can be made back. I'm not keen on doing thousands of damage to myself just to use a new mechanic. Unfortunate that this mechanic will probably never see its potential because of the hefty morale penalties of using it more than once per fight.

    Nothing I can say that hasn't been said before about punishing us for using our skills, and I've seen both sides of the argument. I get why they're doing it but I strongly disagree with it. Potency can basically never be used in the Moors or when soloing tough encounters, because using it just a few times is already thousands of morale down the drain.

    Anything where you can really get the most out of Potency and don't mind the thousands of morale lost is something that probably never needed Potency in the first place. It becomes a gimmick at that point. I'm open to seeing how it works when we all get our hands on it, but I'm pretty skeptical due to the hefty morale cost that will add up quickly.
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  13. #13

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harperelle View Post
    You know, I really wasn't thinking bout the costs of this skill. They are pretty steep:

    1) 5% morale is fairly steep, translating to 250-500 morale depending on build.
    This part is purely speculation, but that 5% being a ratio could make me ignore it. The 250-500 morale could easily get up to 750-1000 morale (I don't know how much stat inflation they are going with). Essentially the price of this just keeps going up. The cost of it, just doesn't seem to fit. Not to mention the absurdity of the whole thing from a logical/lore point. So I am better prepared for a fight, yet it causes me to lose confidence in myself? Wha? A better deal would be to have the loss of morale when the gambit is stored (a loss of faith in my abilities to suggest needing this at some point). Then I might be more inclined to move it in. I could backfill and pay the price when I want, then call it out when needed at no cost.

    Just seems like a gimmick skill filler to me. When I would really need it, I doubt I would want to pay the price. When I can pay the price, do I really need it? I guess, thinking about it more, its strikes me as something I might use when I am only doing DPS/interrupt/corruption removal. As a tank, trading morale for something doesn't seem like something I want. If I'm not tanking, then maybe.
    Last edited by baue8673; Aug 09 2011 at 04:36 PM.

  14. #14
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoboy View Post
    I disagree. Being able to use an interrupt now vs when an induction is going off could very well be the difference between a wipe and a victory.
    The problem is this only applies if the devs make content that needs this. Right now there isn't a single boss in OD that needs an interrupt. Even if there was, every class can interrupt now.

    I think it's gimmicky, much like the fist-line fears, and like the fears it's counter-productive to tanking as it damages you....

    Edit: if they're going to put this morale cost on it, give us a way to mitigate or even remove it. My favorite would be tying it to the capstone: shield capstone=no morale cost on battle-memory shield gambits, spear capstone=no morale cost on battle-memory spear gambits.
    Last edited by striverg; Aug 09 2011 at 04:47 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by striverg View Post
    Edit: if they're going to put this morale cost on it, give us a way to mitigate or even remove it. My favorite would be tying it to the capstone: shield capstone=no morale cost on battle-memory shield gambits, spear capstone=no morale cost on battle-memory spear gambits.
    I think we have more than enough encouragement to go for 5 traits just from the capstones being as good as they are to begin with...
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  16. #16

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by baue8673 View Post
    ...

    Just seems like a gimmick skill filler to me. When I would really need it, I doubt I would want to pay the price. When I can pay the price, do I really need it? I guess, thinking about it more, its strikes me as something I might use when I am only doing DPS/interrupt/corruption removal. As a tank, trading morale for something doesn't seem like something I want. If I'm not tanking, then maybe.
    Exactly, +rep.

    I agree that the 5% isn't a big deal in and of itself, but the rare times that you can't afford to take the 700+ hit (I think it might even be more when geared up @ 75) are the times you would really need this mechanic. If you're fine with the big morale hit, then you don't need potency anyways.

    This is why I think it will be nothing more than a gimmick, and we will never see the full potential in DPS and tanking applications until the morale cost is reduced significantly or removed.

    Can someone tell me why our skills need a penalty again? Why can't they balance the skill without punishing us like they do with every other class? I'm of course alluding to not only potency but Never Surrender... don't get me wrong it's totally awesome to prevent a death and get a huge heal but... do I really want to do the rest of the fight (presumably a raid boss) without masteries? Not really, might as well just take the rez and spam the Engage type skill we're supposed to get a few times until I get aggro back. Why do we have our most important skills taken away for using our only cooldown? Is it really so game breaking to just give us a huge heal (for which nothing is stopping it from being burned right through again)? What if a 10k crit took us down, so we used it just to get hit for 10k again? Skills like TnG and Pledge are better than any amount of heal, because they can avoid thousands upon thousands of damage for the duration, so why don't they get penalties? They could have avoided both (and many more) of those hypothetical deadly crits with no penalties. Why aren't half their skills locked out after those classes use those cooldowns?

    Sorry for the rant, held back on that earlier today but the more I think about it (however awesome NS is) the more it bugs me.
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  17. #17
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    In a DPS rotation (given that the bleeds 'eat' eachother at a higher tier AND have double masteries) I would use Battle Memory/Potency like this:

    (11) Deft Strike
    1(32)(13) Wardens Triumph
    Battle Memory Wardens triumph
    (22) Shield Strike?
    1(23) Power Attack
    (12)(31) Mighty Blow (stronger bleed because of power attack)
    Battle Memory Power attack
    (33) Goad
    1(21) Onslaught
    Battle Memory Onslaught

    Repeat! It would have the stronger bleed from Mighty Blow/Power Attack combo AND the power attack bleed... If the rotation is too long I would use Unerring instead of goad and deft strike perhaps.
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  18. #18

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by AltariasEU View Post
    In a DPS rotation (given that the bleeds 'eat' eachother at a higher tier AND have double masteries) I would use Battle Memory/Potency like this:

    (11) Deft Strike
    1(32)(13) Wardens Triumph
    Battle Memory Wardens triumph
    (22) Shield Strike?
    1(23) Power Attack
    (12)(31) Mighty Blow (stronger bleed because of power attack)
    Battle Memory Power attack
    (33) Goad
    1(21) Onslaught
    Battle Memory Onslaught

    Repeat! It would have the stronger bleed from Mighty Blow/Power Attack combo AND the power attack bleed... If the rotation is too long I would use Unerring instead of goad and deft strike perhaps.
    Good luck with the 2k+ morale you would be losing every rotation. This number is based on the assumption we'll easily have 15k+ when decently geared with the new itemization changes at level 75. My guess is closer to 20k if well geared, but that's beside the point.

    Rotations similar to that is what I meant by we'll never see the full potential of potency. It has such great potential, such cool things we could do with it in rotations but we'll never get to because of the morale cost. If you come up with a rotation that really utilizes potency and really cranks out some extra gambits and you get some real good use out of it... it's moot because you'll be losing THOUSANDS of morale for it. Lame.
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  19. #19

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    I thought I'd resurrect this thread now that we know a bit more about Battle Memory. Looking back at my first post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Harperella
    1) Quick opening
    Open with a 5-gambit opener while still keeping all your masteries off CD. This gives you an edge on threat. Open with EoB, Desolation, Warden's Triumph, or even Defiant Challenge.

    2) Reactionary skills
    Keep an interrupt, corruption removal, or force taunt in battle memory for when you need something -now-

    3) More gambits
    Use battle memory to execute more gambits per second. Work it into a regular rotation. Something like this:

    Deft Strike - Warden's Triumph (Store) - Power Attack - Mighty Blow - Unerring Strike - Wardens Triumph (BM) - Repeat

    4) Utility
    Have a useful skill in Battle Memory like Conviction, Shield Mastery, or Desolation waiting in your battle memory for just the right time.
    Looking back at these use-cases, I see some changes:

    1) Quick Opening
    This really only works if you are chain pulling. I occasionally will build Shield Mastery at the end of an encounter so that it will be ready for the next fight. I really have to hustle to make that work. I think it will be even tougher get get battle memory to last between battles.

    2) Reactionary skills
    This still seems like a good use. Especially if we can use Battle Memory as a 1-shot skill in the middle of another gambit. Usually the path to interrupt is:
    See induction
    Finish/clear current gambit
    Build interrupt
    Fire Interrupt
    We could preload that interrupt (maybe with Wall of Steel for the buff or Boot for the low morale cost) then use Battle Memory in the middle of building Conviction (or some other gambit) and then finish building the gambit. If this is the way it works, then it is very useful.

    3) More Gambits
    I think that Battle Memory as a way to get more gambits out is a good use. If you are a spear traited, you can put out more DPS with extra Warden's Triumphs or more Unerring Strikes.

    4) Utilities
    I think this is another good use with Shield Tactics, Aggression, Reversal, or possibly even Defiant Challenge.

    I've got a couple of extra uses for it:

    5) Rotation Management
    Sometimes you start with one rotation to get buffs up, then switch to another rotation for tanking/dps. There is a cost for switching rotations halfway through. The cost of slowing down and building some manual gambits. For instance, I like to open with Wardens Triumph, but then must build Shield Mastery with [Sh-Sp] Fi Sh. If I save that shield mastery, I can later put it up again without taking out the [Sh-Sp] mastery, which makes weaving Restoration into my rotation later that much easier.

    6) Power savings
    You pay for battle memory out of morale instead of power. This might be a good use for those very power intensive threat skills. Of course, we pay about 2-3 morale/power saved. Minstrels by contrast heal about 5-10 morale/power to heal us. So using battle memory is a net savings in power for the group for high power fist skills, particularly Exultation of Battle, War Cry, Goad, and Precise Blow.
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  20. #20
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Probably a Conviction or EoB for tanking and a second/ third primed interrupt when interrupting is that important. And I will be using it a lot - 5% morale is a drop in the bucket. If a warden has 10,000 morale, that is 500 morale lost maximum. That's maybe few ticks of a HoT, if that, to recover and healers have no right to complain about it because I routinely get over-healed for that much or more just because the only button on their hotbar is Bolster Courage/ Rally Cry/ etc. They could make up the power spent and then some by learning to match the size of the heal used to the amount of damage taken.

  21. #21
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Now that we know that it's based on the number of builders... probably The Boot, for a quick interrupt.
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  22. #22
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Do you guys get hit hard and often when leveling or during trash pulls or in small group content or in skirmishes?
    Being able to pull wardens triumph for 5% of my health is nothing seeing as I have 2-3k ICMR, self heals and normal mobs hit like premature babies.

    We may even be able to use DbD more often because of this.
    I will be abusing it.
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  23. #23
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nytshade617 View Post
    Do you guys get hit hard and often when leveling or during trash pulls or in small group content or in skirmishes?
    Being able to pull wardens triumph for 5% of my health is nothing seeing as I have 2-3k ICMR, self heals and normal mobs hit like premature babies.

    We may even be able to use DbD more often because of this.
    I will be abusing it.
    My sentiments exactly. If I'm not tanking, you better believe the first thing I'll be doing is driving my morale to 40% and asking the healer to not heal me unless I ask. This or the boot for interrupts.
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  24. #24
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    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoboy View Post
    My sentiments exactly. If I'm not tanking, you better believe the first thing I'll be doing is driving my morale to 40% and asking the healer to not heal me unless I ask. This or the boot for interrupts.
    Count me in as well!

    Looks like I'm finally going to be able to finish the DbtD Deed, and the joy I feel in having (1 2) freed up while tanking is beyond words...
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  25. #25

    Re: What are you keeping in Battle Memory?

    I think it could be more functional in PvMP, when combined with Never Surrender. You could risk using Warden's Triumph, then Pop it from BatMem, then you probably walk into NevSur heal. It has the potential to unload some serious damage in a short burst.

    This could leaves you SOL depending on the situation but could also blow up an opponent or even the 2nd in a 2v1 and then you would have to work through the remainder of the fight gimpy but against say a spider you would be pretty well off to finish squishing the squishy.

    In a further uneven numbers situation you might get dropped afterwards but the combo could give you the potential to get an extra kill in before you go down.

    In group fight I am usually spear traited anywho, so spear attacks are still available and trait buffed, then just pull back and range for a few minutes till masteries come back for melee fighting.
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