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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    How big is your power pool on BR? I think mine is around 5400, which implies I'm getting some from gear and traits. For that matter, how much Fate did you have?

    Anyway, we can extrapolate roughly that a standard tanking rotation burns between 4700 and 5000 power per minute. The back-of-envelope calculation I did to derive that includes your pot and Rallying Cries, so the "true" number is probably closer to 5500-6000, but that's not really important. I'm going to try to derive a "target" ICPR and therefore Fate value that tanking Captains can shoot for.

    5000 ICPR would give us infinite power sustain, but realistically we can't build that much Fate and stay effective. (Right?) So here's a rough little table of fight duration vs. ICPR:

    • 5 Minutes: 4000 ICPR
    • 4 Minutes 3750 ICPR
    • 3 Minutes: 3325 ICPR
    • 2 Minutes: 2500 ICPR


    Note that most of those values are fudged a little, since I didn't feel like spending TOO much time on accuracy. There does seem to be a trend that, perversely, each additional point of ICPR counts for more the more ICPR you have.

    Getting from 1.5 minutes to 2 required a jump of ~1k extra ICPR. 2 minutes to 3 required 850. 3 to 4 required 425. 4 to 5 required 250. Etc.

    Anyway, what does that have to do with gearing? Well, many fights we'll want to tank last 2 minutes or more. So, we should shoot for 2500 ICPR in a tank build. Figuring that we have roughly a base 1k ICPR before Fate (incidentally, Omen, I don't think your spreadsheet accounts for this), that means we want at least 300 Fate from our tank gear.

    Just messing around with the spreadsheet, I easily got 365 Fate into a build that also had 18k morale and strong resistances. So, the situation when U10 gear is in the mix is slightly less bad than with Hytbold/U9 gear.

    As a secondary note, I'll almost mention that perhaps the best way to get Fate without losing other stats is probably going to be through LI relics and even titles. Losing, say, 30 Vitality doesn't hurt that much, but gaining 30 Fate is pretty good.
    My power pool was about 4724. Vibrant neck of Eomer, Hyt Leader Shoulders, Loyalty, Fidelity. You probably use the Gems of Hope, I went for True Gems of Twilight.

    We've got exactly 240 base ICPR before Fate, which I moved to a more conspicuous, intuitive location on the spreadsheet.

    I like the idea of trying to derive a rough target for ICPR. Screwing around a bit more, I got a rough number for how much I burn in a minute, and it falls within your 5500-6000 Power used per minute range, unmodified by power restores. I was on the lower end, using a 1hander, with power legacies. So say -5750 PPM.

    Can't expect ICPR to account for all that, lets look at other things that give power. You included some of these in your number, but I wanna lay each one out there: So if 1 RC/min is roughly 500 PPM to me, 0.5 Pot/min is roughly 712.5 PPM. Food is what, 600 ICPR which is already in units of PPM? That leaves me with -3938ish PPM to account for somewhere? I acknowledge the existance of blue CJs, but I dunno how to account for them. More rally cries would help, less would hurt, but if there were just 1 per minute, 2500 ICPR from stat there oughta make the tank in question good for like 3ish minutes. (Numbers are getting rougher the further down this rabbit hole I go. Start with rough numbers, end with rough numbers.)

    I guess a lot of it depends on how much power help you can count on from other sources, like food & stuff.



    In other news, been trying to fix little problems with the spreadsheet. Earring of Defiant and Trev Gallorg had their stats swapped for some damn reason. Added in that will no longer changes power, added in new Crit D formula, somehow I had the equip stat for banner of hope off by like 7 morale, changed Hytbold and Moors armor stats to include the fate for ICPR changes RockX made. Still digging around for tiny things that mayve escaped my notice.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Mar 03 2013 at 03:25 PM.
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  2. #27
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    Something you may be interested in.... I put together the Wyrmfire Warrior's Ring of Rohan, and have been messing around the training dummies with it. The third tier of Crit boost is +1519 (!), and the boost procs off of our damage skills and autoattacks (including VS and Inspire).

    Considering how (relatively) easy this ring is to put together, it's definitely something worth considering.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 08 2013 at 04:22 AM.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Something you may be interested in.... I put together the Wyrmfire Warrior's Ring of Rohan, and have been messing around the training dummies with it. The third tier of Crit boost is +1519 (!), and the boost procs off of our damage skills and autoattacks (including VS and Inspire).

    Considering how (relatively) easy this ring is to put together, it's definitely something worth considering.
    My question is how easily one can keep the buff up for A) a single target for an extended length of time, and B) quick fights with groups of 3-4 at a time with short downtime in between.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Something you may be interested in.... I put together the Wyrmfire Warrior's Ring of Rohan, and have been messing around the training dummies with it. The third tier of Crit boost is +1519 (!), and the boost procs off of our damage skills and autoattacks (including VS and Inspire).

    Considering how (relatively) easy this ring is to put together, it's definitely something worth considering.
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    My question is how easily one can keep the buff up for A) a single target for an extended length of time, and B) quick fights with groups of 3-4 at a time with short downtime in between.
    That is indeed interesting Almagnus, and I'm considering adding the quantity of the buff into the sheet instead of a blurb saying that there is a proc. TinDragon, from what all my buddies tell me the 10-15% procs can practically be counted upon always, they proc so much. But then my buddies in this particular case are a champ, hunter, and tank warden.

    The problem is, one could get two pieces of gear with crit or might procs, but you can't get two separate buffs (tested in bullroarer by above hunter with purple crit proc pocket from Maze and gold Wyrmfire ring). So I'd have to make the spreadsheet a little smarter to tell if the Captain in question already has a might proc or crit proc in order to not double-count those.

    I still need to figure a couple things out. If you get the might/crit + might proc bracelet from HV, which has a lesser proc than a ?Sunbrand? ring, which proc "wins"? Hunter says he feels like the %s combine when you have two of the same procs. I'd like to see if more people agree with that.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    I still need to figure a couple things out. If you get the might/crit + might proc bracelet from HV, which has a lesser proc than a ?Sunbrand? ring, which proc "wins"? Hunter says he feels like the %s combine when you have two of the same procs. I'd like to see if more people agree with that.
    Are you sure they always overwrite each other? A couple might procs my group found yesterday didn't seem to stack (hard to test if the %s combined) but they were reporting that the buff name was a different name than what I remember the gold ring buff name being. If one is slightly more potent than the other and they end up giving different buff names because of that, I bet they'd stack.
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  6. #31
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    From what I observed with the crit ring last night, you can count on it to give you T2 bonus (each tier is about 500 crit) all the time.

    If we're using a 1H, it's a shoo-in. Also on that note, the DW classes would be able to keep the bonuses up all the time (since they will have far more hits than we ever will).

    I'm not sure about the stacking of same stat types through procs, it will be something to test out whenever I can farm up another ring.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    If we're using a 1H, it's a shoo-in. Also on that note, the DW classes would be able to keep the bonuses up all the time (since they will have far more hits than we ever will).
    I could be wrong (again, don't have any of the proc items yet, so take my words with a grain of salt) but the rings specify "harmful skill" which seems to me that it doesn't matter how many attacks or how many targets a skill has, since it's still only one harmful skill.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I could be wrong (again, don't have any of the proc items yet, so take my words with a grain of salt) but the rings specify "harmful skill" which seems to me that it doesn't matter how many attacks or how many targets a skill has, since it's still only one harmful skill.
    Crit ring says "oh hit", and I have confirmed that it procs off of auto attacks.

    Edit:
    And before it comes up, Inspire and VS are also included in the skills that proc.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 08 2013 at 11:12 PM.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Are you sure they always overwrite each other? A couple might procs my group found yesterday didn't seem to stack (hard to test if the %s combined) but they were reporting that the buff name was a different name than what I remember the gold ring buff name being. If one is slightly more potent than the other and they end up giving different buff names because of that, I bet they'd stack.
    Hey, I got a hold of a +111 agi proc helm and +113 agi proc shoulders on the warden. The +111 never ever procs when I have both equipped.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Hey, I got a hold of a +111 agi proc helm and +113 agi proc shoulders on the warden. The +111 never ever procs when I have both equipped.
    Out of curiosity, do they have the same buff name? I think it was just the golds that had a separate buff name from the rest of them.

    I suppose either way it's at least good that the 111 isn't overwriting the 113 like I kinda expected it to.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Hey, I got a hold of a +111 agi proc helm and +113 agi proc shoulders on the warden. The +111 never ever procs when I have both equipped.
    So how good of a proc are the +stat rings compared to other equipment?
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    So how good of a proc are the +stat rings compared to other equipment?
    +stat rings are like 122 'cause of their item level. Haven't compared crit procs yet.

    So I'm still pretty sure you can't have more than one proc of the same stat. Yeah the buffs have the same name, Greater Agility something or other.

    I've got a question there. Do y'all think it would be a good idea to have the spreadsheet assume you'd get the proc 100% of the time, as seems to be possible and often probable for these stat procs? (the mit one is obviously different). And to have that stat proc then added into total stats for the build?

    Here's another question, something I'm not sure of either. I've had kinmates report seeing a 122 agi Exemplary Hunter's dagger on Brandywine, as if it were Item Level 102. Now in U9 that was 114 agi and item level 97. All the Exemplary and Malledhrim golds I have or have seen are still item level 97. My current theory is that new Exemplaries and probably Malledhrims drop at item level 102 along with all the U10 golds. Not 100% sure though. But suppose it's true. How should I account for that? Just add in two entries for our earring and shield, specifying the item level in the item name?
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  13. #38
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    For the Wyrmfire Warrior's Ring crit buff, based off of what I have observed, I would factor the crit proc into my gearing decisions because it is at tier 3 as often as it is.

    I'm unsure how frequently you can keep the buffs for the other items up, and that's a large part of whether or not to ignore the proc buff.
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  14. #39
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    The gold items that dropped before U10 had their item level increased, only, not he ones that already dropped for people. That will be fixed. (see known issues)

    I saw the crit buff tier up when I used telling mark once.
    Last edited by Nakiami; Mar 11 2013 at 09:11 AM.
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  15. #40
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    I can also verify that the crit buff is up virtually 100% of the time. I believe this is due to the nature of its proc requirement ("on hit") and I believe because of that, the main stat one may not be counted on as easily (because it requires a "Harmful Skill"). Almangus went into that a few posts ago to correct me on the crit ring, haha.

    On a side note, the crit defense one has a pretty good potential to be up full-time, at least in a tanking role. Tested it with a few low-level mobs hitting me at once and the buff would refresh before it hit 0. Not sure how long it'd be up against a single enemy though. I only tested it against the training dummy, which seems to have incredibly slow attacks. The buff did not refresh before expiring, though it did reapply pretty quickly after expiring.
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  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post

    I saw the crit buff tier up when I used telling mark once.
    I had my telling mark devastate once. I guess it does count as a "hit" then. It's weird to devastate with a "hit" and not put something in combat.

    Oh man I hope mark spamming doesn't become a prefight ritual.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 12 2013 at 12:55 PM.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    I had my telling mark devastate once. I guess it does count as a "hit" then. It's weird to devastate with a "hit" and not put something in combat.

    Oh man I hope mark spamming doesn't become a prefight ritual.
    If I've got 2 yellow I'll probably spam it while we're waiting for things to kick off, but that's about it. Both the +stat and the +crit tier up so fast it's really not important enough to spam it before the fight, you'll have the buff up within like the first 5 seconds anyway.
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  18. #43
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    So I've got a little more learning on the subject of procs and if they do/don't stack.

    I have Norbury something leggings from Fornost Fire that give a health proc called Major HoT. It stacks with my Sunbrand ring proc which is called Greater HoT. Real nifty that they don't share cooldowns, I can have both at once looks like.

    I've asked around and found the buff from the Moonblossom sages ring is called Major Will, and the agi one gives Major Agility. My warden's purple helm and teal shoulders both give Major Agility, and they don't stack. So I'm pretty sure it won't stack with the Mooncandle Huntsman's Ring proc that gives Major Agility. For us, the HV bracelet and pocket from wherever that give might procs give a proc called Major Might. I can only assume our Mooncandle Warrior's Ring gives Major Might too.

    I've never tested out any Crit D thing but Starblossom ring, but that gives Greater Critical Defense. Maybe teals/purples give Major Crit D, maybe not, idk.

    Crit procs well they all give 3 tiers of procs. The T1 is called Minor Crit, T2 is Major Crit, T3 is Greater Crit.

    I'm concluding for now that if the buff names are different, they stack (crit's different 'cause it tiers up). If they're the same name, they don't stack.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Mar 13 2013 at 03:51 PM.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    So I've got a little more learning on the subject of procs and if they do/don't stack.

    I have Norbury something leggings from Fornost Fire that give a health proc called Major HoT. It stacks with my Sunbrand ring proc which is called Greater HoT. Real nifty that they don't share cooldowns, I can have both at once looks like.

    I've asked around and found the buff from the Moonblossom sages ring is called Major Will, and the agi one gives Major Agility. My warden's purple helm and teal shoulders both give Major Agility, and they don't stack. So I'm pretty sure it won't stack with the Mooncandle Huntsman's Ring proc that gives Major Agility. For us, the HV bracelet and pocket from wherever that give might procs give a proc called Major Might. I can only assume our Mooncandle Warrior's Ring gives Major Might too.

    I've never tested out any Crit D thing but Starblossom ring, but that gives Greater Critical Defense. Maybe teals/purples give Major Crit D, maybe not, idk.

    Crit procs well they all give 3 tiers of procs. The T1 is called Minor Crit, T2 is Major Crit, T3 is Greater Crit.

    I'm concluding for now that if the buff names are different, they stack (crit's different 'cause it tiers up). If they're the same name, they don't stack.
    The other thing I'm wondering, do the +stat proc rings have the proc frequency high enough that we can count on the proc always being there?
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The other thing I'm wondering, do the +stat proc rings have the proc frequency high enough that we can count on the proc always being there?
    Based on my Will proc pocket (I got the one from Sambrog on my LM) I'd say that's a safe bet. LM has slower attacks than a cappy does since it's all induction-based, and I still usually manage to refresh the buff on LM before it expires. Not to mention that the pocket is only a 10% chance to proc (since it's a teal) and the gold ring is a 15%.
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  21. #46
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    I keep going off topic talking about procs. I hope the OP doesn't mind. There's no other home for this information, currently, with the Gameplay & Systems subforum being removed. Gen Discussion is a cesspit of good info lost in trash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    I have Norbury something leggings from Fornost Fire that give a health proc called Major HoT. It stacks with my Sunbrand ring proc which is called Greater HoT. Real nifty that they don't share cooldowns, I can have both at once looks like.
    I have an ammendment to this. I had done a little testing before, but now I've done a lot of testing.

    Looks like:
    1) the Major and Greater HoTs don't share cooldown.
    2) they cannot be active at once
    3) Greater gets priority.
    --a) Each proc has 6 pulses, but the Major HoT gets "interrupted" by the Greater HoT often, not doing 6 HoTs in that case.
    --b) The Greater HoT always gives 6 pulses

    Explaining 3 a little more, what I see is the Major HoT proc and the pulses start ticking, but at any point in the middle if the Greater HoT gets procced, the Major HoT icon disappears (looks like trail food btw) and the Greater HoT applies. So I may see 1, 2, 3 Major HoT pulses then suddenly 6 Greater HoT procs. Or I may see the Major HoT not appear for a minute and a half at a time, as if it tried to proc while the Greater HoT was active and therefore failed and went on CD (I can only guess it went on CD). I'd get parses of 10 minutes vs 1 mob giving 84 Greater HoT pulses and 46 Major HoT pulses because of that.

    Conclusion: the morale-heal benefit from wearing the Norbury Greaves may be gained while having a Sunbrand ring equipped, but its bonus is greatly diminished. From the data I got I'd say I gain roughly 10 self HPS from equipping those greaves after having equipped the Sunbrand ring. Is it worth more than say a stat dose of evade? Self 10 HPS = 600 ICMR basically. I will think on it. Thats a real rough number, still need to do more testing. I have a couple 10 min parses of the four different circumstances varying # of lvl 20 dourhand brawlers I fight from 1-2 and whether I have Sunbrand+Norbury or just Sunbrand. Ten or twenty total minutes of testing each circumstance ain't really enough to be certain I don't think. I'm so rusty on statistics, but I remember enough to think that I can never have enough data basically.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Mar 14 2013 at 12:51 AM.
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  22. #47
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    It almost seems like either you go with a proc ring, or you go with another proc item, but don't have two of the same proc type.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    It almost seems like either you go with a proc ring, or you go with another proc item, but don't have two of the same proc type.
    Yep.

    For crit & main stat procs, absolutely yes.

    For the case of Sunbrand ring + Norbury Greaves, the answer is maybe yes. (Getting right down to Sunbrand + Steel Greaves of Norbury vs Sunbrand + Hyt/Erebor leggings, it's then 10-12 HPS on self + dose of morale vs a dose fate and a dose of evade/crit D depending on Hytbold or Erebor. It pains me, but I lean to Hyt/Erebor if those are my choices. Oh gosh I didn't account for incoming healing there, it was 19.7% when I was testing.).

    For crit D, probably yes.
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