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  1. #1901
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Champs aren't OP because of their class. If it was the class alone that was OP, no champ would ever be killed. Yet I see champs having to use all their CDs and still unable to beat blue ranks. Skill is definitely required. The truth of it, and this is the same for pretty much any class too, if they are played well they will be seen as OP. Sometimes the class just helps facilitate that.
    So basically no class is overpowered if you can find a tetraplegic person playing it ?
    [size=1]Freeps (Snowbourn): [b]Equanor (R11 MNS)[/b] - Equendil - Orlo - Equadoc - Quaolin - Oshia - Kaolin - Equaric - Equorn
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  2. #1902
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Equendil View Post
    So basically no class is overpowered if you can find a tetraplegic person playing it ?
    And all classes are overpowered if you can find a few people who decimate on it.

  3. #1903
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    And all classes are overpowered if you can find a few people who decimate on it.
    You need to point me out who can "decimate" on wl

  4. #1904
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by korig View Post
    You need to point me out who can "decimate" on wl
    I'd do that but none of them seem to want to fight me. Gotta admit, though, that WLs are more built for group fights than 1v1s, so you'd have to look at decimation in terms of that, which is fairly easily done (can't tell you the amount of times I've seen even groups fighting but the warleaders being the only thing keeping the creeps alive while the freeps die).

  5. #1905
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    In a day when minstrels are just immortals, champion could look as a non op class, compared to them but still.. every single champ could easily kill every single average creep (<r9) without any problem, especially if usin bubbles.
    You must have a decent knowledge of your char, however... as Doro said, I've seen some champs without it at all, just like using all bubbles together or dire need when they had no power or aoe skils durin 1vs1.. I mean, some people are not cut for weapons or war
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  6. #1906
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    I'd do that but none of them seem to want to fight me. Gotta admit, though, that WLs are more built for group fights than 1v1s, so you'd have to look at decimation in terms of that, which is fairly easily done (can't tell you the amount of times I've seen even groups fighting but the warleaders being the only thing keeping the creeps alive while the freeps die).
    Freepside healing outmatches creep healing by a long shot due to the skills that offer induction protection and having more healing skills at their disposal as well as being able to increase their crit chance. Perhaps if the minstrels and/or runekeepers healed instead of trying to pump out as much dps as everyone else then freeps would come out top in group fights.

    As for 1v1ing on warleader, don't take it personally but I'm currently not fighting many freep classes. It's downright depressing when your in full DPS spec and you get something like... You scored a critical hit with Black Speech on Dorothir for 420 Shadow damage to moral. Thats a critical hit that hits for lower then the damage stated on the tooltip for a normal hit. Or you trait for crit protection and still get a tactical class coming along and pounding you for a 2-3k hit even with audacity. Add to that the fact that you could pop bubbles and other heals and other classes can pop their skills, its damn difficult to win a fight against most freeps right now.

    Warleader is currently a dated class that needs some changes like most other classes have received. Most people look at Warleader and see a large moral pool which makes them think twice about engaging but all it takes to stop a warleader from healing is one player pounding away on us, seeing as turbine has removed our DPS indirectly.

    Saying a Warleader can decimate in group fights based on the lack of freeps healing is cheap and not an answer, so who can decimate on Warleader?
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  7. #1907
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Argick View Post
    Saying a Warleader can decimate in group fights based on the lack of freeps healing is cheap and not an answer, so who can decimate on Warleader?
    Tell that to the creep group we were fighting around TR fields yesterday. Think the warleaders they had were Skuru, Guldur and someone else (sorry for forgetting). They obliterated us despite their lower numbers, all because the warleader's heals and bubbles kept them up. Also, you're forgetting that even though freep heals may be superior (which is debatable) but the healers are a lot squishier than warleaders and defilers.

  8. #1908
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Tell that to the creep group we were fighting around TR fields yesterday. Think the warleaders they had were Skuru, Guldur and someone else (sorry for forgetting). They obliterated us despite their lower numbers, all because the warleader's heals and bubbles kept them up. Also, you're forgetting that even though freep heals may be superior (which is debatable) but the healers are a lot squishier than warleaders and defilers.
    Totally wrong.
    You need so many creeps to kill a matusalem in healing mode.
    Mini is even worse, let's take Sian for example. (true that not much mini go in healing traits in ettens, so not much examples).

    You just need a rk or a hunter to kill a WL full auda in few secs.

    If freeps feel their healing is inferior in raid vs raid, it's because creep leader ask for at least 2 healers per group.
    I've never saw a freep raid with 8 healers... good for us.


    Also many freeps lack totally the knowledge of how creeps healing/bubbles work, and they target stupidly.

  9. #1909

    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Tell that to the creep group we were fighting around TR fields yesterday. Think the warleaders they had were Skuru, Guldur and someone else (sorry for forgetting). They obliterated us despite their lower numbers, all because the warleader's heals and bubbles kept them up. Also, you're forgetting that even though freep heals may be superior (which is debatable) but the healers are a lot squishier than warleaders and defilers.
    Problem: Healers are too squishy. Solution: Guardian(s) (Which can reach up to 21k in morale as far as i know) use Shield Wall on healer(s). LM use stun immunity on Guardian(s) and healer(s). Result: One squishy healer.

    Problem: Warleaders and Defilers are healing too well. Solution: Bring in a burglar with addle (And reduced cd+ increased induction if that is still available.(?)) Result: Even if the burgs can't stay on them forever they won't get an induction off fast which is really annoying.

    Problem: WL keeps using bubbles. Solution: None for that target, switch target and wait 15 seconds. Don't waste any DPS on him. Result: That player will most likely survive but at least you didn't waste DPS on a target that probably never dies.

    (Note: The text setup might seem weird so far, this is because i wanted it simple, makes it easier for me and probably others to read and understand and it looks less "clumpy")

    These are just a few very basic solutions or workarounds for the problems you mentioned. Of course you might loose sometimes but i would blame the randomness in b/p/e and crits for that. Sometimes a class just gets lucky and scores 10+ crits in a row and never get a b/p/e, other times you are lucky to even get a hit in. (Never liked this randomness) Or it simply comes down to one side had better focus on targets than the other and so on. My point is you can't always expect to go in and win, you will loose sometimes. That's the whole point of PvP thought, one dies, one wins. Thought of course this is just my opinion, i might be wrong.
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  10. #1910
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by korig View Post
    Totally wrong.
    You need so many creeps to kill a matusalem in healing mode.
    Mini is even worse, let's take Sian for example. (true that not much mini go in healing traits in ettens, so not much examples).

    You just need a rk or a hunter to kill a WL full auda in few secs.

    If freeps feel their healing is inferior in raid vs raid, it's because creep leader ask for at least 2 healers per group.
    I've never saw a freep raid with 8 healers... good for us.


    Also many freeps lack totally the knowledge of how creeps healing/bubbles work, and they target stupidly.
    It's only your opinion that I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoggerius View Post
    Problem: Healers are too squishy. Solution: Guardian(s) (Which can reach up to 21k in morale as far as i know) use Shield Wall on healer(s). LM use stun immunity on Guardian(s) and healer(s). Result: One squishy healer.

    Problem: Warleaders and Defilers are healing too well. Solution: Bring in a burglar with addle (And reduced cd+ increased induction if that is still available.(?)) Result: Even if the burgs can't stay on them forever they won't get an induction off fast which is really annoying.

    Problem: WL keeps using bubbles. Solution: None for that target, switch target and wait 15 seconds. Don't waste any DPS on him. Result: That player will most likely survive but at least you didn't waste DPS on a target that probably never dies.

    (Note: The text setup might seem weird so far, this is because i wanted it simple, makes it easier for me and probably others to read and understand and it looks less "clumpy")

    These are just a few very basic solutions or workarounds for the problems you mentioned. Of course you might loose sometimes but i would blame the randomness in b/p/e and crits for that. Sometimes a class just gets lucky and scores 10+ crits in a row and never get a b/p/e, other times you are lucky to even get a hit in. (Never liked this randomness) Or it simply comes down to one side had better focus on targets than the other and so on. My point is you can't always expect to go in and win, you will loose sometimes. That's the whole point of PvP thought, one dies, one wins. Thought of course this is just my opinion, i might be wrong.
    Sadly, I don't have the ability to control every freep in a raid exactly how I'd like, so I have to deal with people who don't know what to do at precise moments. If I did, well I think we'd end up with creeps crying about how OP every freep class is.

  11. #1911

    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Argick View Post
    Warleader is currently a dated class that needs some changes like most other classes have received.
    No wonder, if at your rank you still heal without Brawler Stance.
    Warleader is currently at his best.


    If you want to piss and moan about your 1v1 or RvR abilities, bring it to the PvMP forum, you'll find threads with ''quantifications'' and some shoulders to cry on.
    While facing Overpowered classes with Underpowered classes, MPs are still ranking up. With PvE only?
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  12. #1912

    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Sadly, I don't have the ability to control every freep in a raid exactly how I'd like, so I have to deal with people who don't know what to do at precise moments. If I did, well I think we'd end up with creeps crying about how OP every freep class is.
    Well of course, this is also a part of PvP but the end of your post seems odd. Is that because very well organized freeps are stronger than very well organized creeps?
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  13. #1913
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoggerius View Post
    Well of course, this is also a part of PvP but the end of your post seems odd. Is that because very well organized freeps are stronger than very well organized creeps?
    Actually no. What I was implying that had I a group of freeps all doing exactly what I want when I want, I'd be stronger than a group of creeps all played by individual people. Pretty much me just saying I know what is needed for what situation from each class but a lot of people don't. Same could be said if I had control of a group of creeps, too.

  14. #1914

    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    No wonder, if at your rank you still heal without Brawler Stance.
    Warleader is currently at his best.


    If you want to piss and moan about your 1v1 or RvR abilities, bring it to the PvMP forum, you'll find threads with ''quantifications'' and some shoulders to cry on.
    While facing Overpowered classes with Underpowered classes, MPs are still ranking up. With PvE only?
    This is
    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    the PvMP forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Actually no. What I was implying that had I a group of freeps all doing exactly what I want when I want, I'd be stronger than a group of creeps all played by individual people. Pretty much me just saying I know what is needed for what situation from each class but a lot of people don't. Same could be said if I had control of a group of creeps, too.
    If faced in perfect conditions i doubt creeps would go out successfully but that we will never know. Depends heavily on group size and setup.
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  15. #1915
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Argick View Post
    Freepside healing outmatches creep healing by a long shot due to the skills that offer induction protection and having more healing skills at their disposal as well as being able to increase their crit chance. Perhaps if the minstrels and/or runekeepers healed instead of trying to pump out as much dps as everyone else then freeps would come out top in group fights.

    As for 1v1ing on warleader, don't take it personally but I'm currently not fighting many freep classes. It's downright depressing when your in full DPS spec and you get something like... You scored a critical hit with Black Speech on Dorothir for 420 Shadow damage to moral. Thats a critical hit that hits for lower then the damage stated on the tooltip for a normal hit. Or you trait for crit protection and still get a tactical class coming along and pounding you for a 2-3k hit even with audacity. Add to that the fact that you could pop bubbles and other heals and other classes can pop their skills, its damn difficult to win a fight against most freeps right now.

    Warleader is currently a dated class that needs some changes like most other classes have received. Most people look at Warleader and see a large moral pool which makes them think twice about engaging but all it takes to stop a warleader from healing is one player pounding away on us, seeing as turbine has removed our DPS indirectly.

    Saying a Warleader can decimate in group fights based on the lack of freeps healing is cheap and not an answer, so who can decimate on Warleader?
    +1 buff the wl, plain and simple, or nerf freep heals, mini can outheal 3-4 creeps, and yet wl struggles to outheal 1, mini can kill everything 1on1, wl cant kill anything bar nubs 1on1. wl is most useless class in ettens now, and needs major buffs to be able to compete.

  16. #1916
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Argick View Post
    Freepside healing outmatches creep healing by a long shot due to the skills that offer induction protection and having more healing skills at their disposal as well as being able to increase their crit chance. Perhaps if the minstrels and/or runekeepers healed instead of trying to pump out as much dps as everyone else then freeps would come out top in group fights.

    As for 1v1ing on warleader, don't take it personally but I'm currently not fighting many freep classes. It's downright depressing when your in full DPS spec and you get something like... You scored a critical hit with Black Speech on Dorothir for 420 Shadow damage to moral. Thats a critical hit that hits for lower then the damage stated on the tooltip for a normal hit. Or you trait for crit protection and still get a tactical class coming along and pounding you for a 2-3k hit even with audacity. Add to that the fact that you could pop bubbles and other heals and other classes can pop their skills, its damn difficult to win a fight against most freeps right now.

    Warleader is currently a dated class that needs some changes like most other classes have received. Most people look at Warleader and see a large moral pool which makes them think twice about engaging but all it takes to stop a warleader from healing is one player pounding away on us, seeing as turbine has removed our DPS indirectly.

    Saying a Warleader can decimate in group fights based on the lack of freeps healing is cheap and not an answer, so who can decimate on Warleader?
    Pretty much says the state of play for WLs, even with 17k health (depends on traits) we go down very easily, our heals can be interrupted, and even in BS its heals are pathetic compared to freep DPS, our banners our questionable these days, the reason RvR can go in favour of creeps is mainly due to there usally being 2 WLs and 1 Def in each group, plus some champs at this moment in time have no clue on interrupts, thankfully, and not just champs, but general freeps.

    Its pretty much useless 1V1ing if you do that kind of thing, and even solo roaming is worthless, WLs shine in groups, group buffs are nice but we lack so much.
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  17. #1917
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Tell that to the creep group we were fighting around TR fields yesterday. Think the warleaders they had were Skuru, Guldur and someone else (sorry for forgetting). They obliterated us despite their lower numbers, all because the warleader's heals and bubbles kept them up. Also, you're forgetting that even though freep heals may be superior (which is debatable) but the healers are a lot squishier than warleaders and defilers.
    I can't tell the creep group anything simply because I wasn't there but it sounds to me like the freep group didn't bother healing as much as the creeps, which is the norm in the moors.

    Like I said in my previous post freep healing is stronger than creep but the two key elements that make it look like it isnt are WL bubbles and freeps focus fire. Take your fight above, even though you had superior numbers it wouldnt matter if the freeps didnt change from the bubbled target and your healers were in warspeech and dps attunement instead of healing.

    As for freep healers being squishy, go have a rune keeper run into a creep raid and watch him survive for way too long. The induction protection from calming verse and the ability to spam mending verse along side other hots is damn impressive. Its even funnier when there is a brand on the rune keeper or the creeps are just stupid enough not to silence/stun them.
    Then there's minstrel... Under focus fire? Pop feign death. Assuming the freep group your with doesn't leg it from your position you've either rooted a bunch of creeps waiting on you or lost aggro completely. Then you get to pop up and continue healing I mean DPSing in warspeech maybe with the odd self heal thown in.

    Also I did mention that 1 freep is all it takes to stop a warleader from healing right? Doesn't even need to have an interrupt to do it but as Stogger mentioned if you want to piss off a warleader have a burg with addle legacies or stick a warden on them. Do that to defilers and sure they can still pull out hots but 50% of them will be on themselves and they'll be kiting.

    Besides, a group fight relies on everyone, not just the Warleaders so that hardly determines them being able to decimate in a group fight. Considering decimate means to destroy and we've already explained how that works.
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  18. #1918
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    It's only your opinion that I'm wrong.
    Certainly not.
    5 freeps focus a wl : dead wl in few secs. (more than 10 sec if he burn quitters and grip, but then it's over)
    5 freeps focus a defi : dead defi in few secs no matter what (exept if he is bubble or healed by many healers).

    5 creeps focus on healing rk : the rk laugh.
    5 creeps focus on mini : the mini laugh or faint death after 30 sec of focus fire.

    Not our fault if freeps sux when it need help from each others. A simple example : we NEVER see any shield of dunedain in moors... witch is really crazy when you see how good it is

  19. #1919
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by korig View Post
    Certainly not.
    5 freeps focus a wl : dead wl in few secs. (more than 10 sec if he burn quitters and grip, but then it's over)
    5 freeps focus a defi : dead defi in few secs no matter what (exept if he is bubble or healed by many healers).

    5 creeps focus on healing rk : the rk laugh.
    5 creeps focus on mini : the mini laugh or faint death after 30 sec of focus fire.

    Not our fault if freeps sux when it need help from each others. A simple example : we NEVER see any shield of dunedain in moors... witch is really crazy when you see how good it is
    That's completely imaginary. Thinking that 5 freeps on a WL will result in a quicker death than 5 creeps on a minstrel is just absurd. Unhook for bias for a second and actually think it through, you'll see why I laugh at the idea that poor warleaders and defilers are so weak they won't last a second out there in the Moors.

  20. #1920
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Argick View Post
    You too can have healers keeping themselves or someone else up.. I'll show you. Captain bubble + Runekeeper or Minstrel healing = Warleader Bubble + Warleader or defiler healing. Take Matusalem for example, I hate the fact that regardless of how many people are trying to kill him he's still healing and stalling the creeps for a significant amount of time (Usually without captain support) so freeps can go in for clean up.

    You say decimate in group play, I say freeps cant target and are too busy trying to spam DPS instead of healing, which is what I see most of the time.

    that's not exactly a new thing.
    Freeps just doesn't know how to play with healers and how to protect them.
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  21. #1921
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    That's completely imaginary. Thinking that 5 freeps on a WL will result in a quicker death than 5 creeps on a minstrel is just absurd. Unhook for bias for a second and actually think it through, you'll see why I laugh at the idea that poor warleaders and defilers are so weak they won't last a second out there in the Moors.
    It's absurd but not completely imaginary. The spike damage from those 5 freeps is usually enough to ensure a swift death so long as its the right classes correct? While poor Warleaders and Defilers will last longer under focus fire compared to poor Minstrels and Runekeepers the end result is the same, a dead healer.

    Anyway we've drifted outside the question. Warleaders cant decimate like most other classes so your "All classes are OP if you can find someone who can decimate on it" is bull and quite frankly a freep view on the moors as it stands now.
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  22. #1922
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Argick View Post
    It's absurd but not completely imaginary. The spike damage from those 5 freeps is usually enough to ensure a swift death so long as its the right classes correct? While poor Warleaders and Defilers will last longer under focus fire compared to poor Minstrels and Runekeepers the end result is the same, a dead healer.

    Anyway we've drifted outside the question. Warleaders cant decimate like most other classes so your "All classes are OP if you can find someone who can decimate on it" is bull and quite frankly a freep view on the moors as it stands now.
    Not bull. A warleader can easily mean a freep wipe. Take Batireto, for example. I may hate his zerg rushes but when it's even numbers, regardless of how many people are spamming him (usually because he has another def or wl with him), he will keep himself or someone else up, which usually results in the rest of the creeps nuking and winning.

    Warleaders can decimate in group play, as I said all along.

  23. #1923
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Not bull. A warleader can easily mean a freep wipe. Take Batireto, for example. I may hate his zerg rushes but when it's even numbers, regardless of how many people are spamming him (usually because he has another def or wl with him), he will keep himself or someone else up, which usually results in the rest of the creeps nuking and winning.

    Warleaders can decimate in group play, as I said all along.
    You too can have healers keeping themselves or someone else up.. I'll show you. Captain bubble + Runekeeper or Minstrel healing = Warleader Bubble + Warleader or defiler healing. Take Matusalem for example, I hate the fact that regardless of how many people are trying to kill him he's still healing and stalling the creeps for a significant amount of time (Usually without captain support) so freeps can go in for clean up.

    You say decimate in group play, I say freeps cant target and are too busy trying to spam DPS instead of healing, which is what I see most of the time.
    Last edited by Argick; May 08 2012 at 06:34 AM. Reason: Being more specific
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  24. #1924
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    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    Lol this thread is bugged for me... posted a reply to your post Arg, and it's on page 128 o.O
    Moridin


    Aut vincere aut mori
    Attitude is everything

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  25. #1925
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    106

    Re: Freeps and Creeps of Snowbourn

    That and when you try to navigate the forums you get taken back to the page you were just on instead of the one you clicked to go to.
    [color=turquoise]Artiar - R5 Guardian: Former Member of Legendarium : Current member of Fate of Norns[/color]
    [color=red]Argick - R11 Warleader[/color]
    Snowbourn

 

 
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