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  1. #2251
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    .......
    I really cant be arsed to continue this ... you stick to ur opinion and I will stick with wat I think is right , but believe me we don't have better bleeds , and if u want to continue believe this than that's up to.
    Mrmatty- R14 defiler

  2. #2252
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post

    For me there are a few points that are valid to complain about:
    - Skill lag
    - Lame farming mentality
    - Unnecessary keep/OP flipping
    - Grams/GV camping
    - Odo
    Only things i comment over here.
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  3. #2253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I said wardens DoT dps is good, but their nuke isn't. At least in my opinion their nuke damage isn't that great. So still not both and therefore it doesn't disprove the whole point I'm trying to make.
    Yeah, Wardens have no potential for nuke at all
    Vroomward scored a devastating hit with Ranged Wall of Steel on the Training-dummy for 10,223 Beleriand damage to Morale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    Stacking 4 Maul dots and 1 bleed is really great and deals more damage than any freep class can do with their DoTs.
    ofc they can.. or.. can they?

    Vroomward scored a critical hit with Big Bleed on Caragdal for 2,722 Beleriand damage to Morale.
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  4. #2254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeonath View Post
    Well said Wardrat +1
    Thanks, glad someone agrees!

    Quote Originally Posted by crockett1986 View Post
    I really cant be arsed to continue this ... you stick to ur opinion and I will stick with wat I think is right , but believe me we don't have better bleeds , and if u want to continue believe this than that's up to.
    Again you are replying to a small part of my post. Even if you are right and freeps have better nuke and dots, then mystically we still have good balance in raid fights. I don't believe that's because we have better healing or far better teamwork/players. Looking at the bigger picture though it doesn't matter. As long as there's balance I don't care how.

    I believe it's because healing/dps is balanced pretty well. Different of course, both healing and dps is different for both sides, but balanced ON RAIDING SCALE (sorry for capslock but I'm afraid people are missing the point). Again, maybe you are right and damage isn't balanced, well, as long as there's balance on raid scale I don't care. And currently we have even raid fights.

    So why complaining? Be happy that the raid fights are fun (if the skill lag doesn't kick in).

    If the raid fights would be on favour for freeps, yes then we have a reason to complain about e.g. the damage freeps have. Currently that isn't the case.

  5. #2255
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    Quote Originally Posted by vr00mie View Post
    Yeah, Wardens have no potential for nuke at all
    Vroomward scored a devastating hit with Ranged Wall of Steel on the Training-dummy for 10,223 Beleriand damage to Morale.



    ofc they can.. or.. can they?

    Vroomward scored a critical hit with Big Bleed on Caragdal for 2,722 Beleriand damage to Morale.
    Averagely speaking, creeps imo have better dots. But then again... we have balance on raid scale so why complain? Imo wardens aren't OP in raids. No one complains on creepside about overpowered wardens during a raid fight. So why would you? Yes they are OP with spars, but in raids they aren't. I've never seen any creep complaining about wardens in a freep raid. They complain about solo wardens though, so to that I agree with you.

  6. #2256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    Averagely speaking, creeps imo have better dots. But then again... we have balance on raid scale so why complain? Imo wardens aren't OP in raids. No one complains on creepside about overpowered wardens during a raid fight. So why would you? Yes they are OP with spars, but in raids they aren't. I've never seen any creep complaining about wardens in a freep raid. They complain about solo wardens though, so to that I agree with you.
    Jeez.. Too bad I don't play freepside anymore (aside from the occasional spar), or I would rally the Wardens of Eldar and make a raid with 16 wards, 4 healing RKs and 4 captains and we would see just how un-OP they are in a raid.

    (Is there even 16 PvP wardens left on Eldar?)
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  7. #2257
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    Quote Originally Posted by vr00mie View Post
    Jeez.. Too bad I don't play freepside anymore (aside from the occasional spar), or I would rally the Wardens of Eldar and make a raid with 16 wards, 4 healing RKs and 4 captains and we would see just how un-OP they are in a raid.

    (Is there even 16 PvP wardens left on Eldar?)
    Well lets go back to a few facts then:
    1. Raid fights are pretty balanced. When numbers are even, the fights take 10-15 minutes, both sides make kills and both sides have an even chance of wiping.
    2. There's class diversity. A raid is filled up with many different classes. Unlike in the past (when there was less balance) and more obvious overpowered and easymode classes. Raids (if there were any) were then filled with the FOTM class. Nowadays there isn't a single class that is explicitly more present in a raid. On both sides this is the case.
    3. There are plenty of raid leaders online and during prime time there's almost always a raid.
    4. Except for SoA there have never been more PvMP players than now.

    These facts clearly show that raid PvMP is active, fun and balanced again. Players choose the class they like to play and not the class that is easiest. Simply because there isn't an obvious FOTM anymore. IN RAIDS. As solo, yes, then there are classes obviously stronger than others. The last time these things happened was during SoA. After that we have never had PvMP like this. There have been good and bad moments, but nothing compared slightly to the SoA days. Up until the past few weeks. Both the mentality as the balance has improved greatly. This is what makes raid fights fun.

    Yet there are still silly complains about meaningless stuff.

    Maybe you are right that a full warden raid (and couple of healers) is overpowered. That's purely theoretical though, as it will never happen. As I said, there's a nice combination of classes in Ettens and this combination brings a good balance to the fight. In the current situation, with the current players, with the current raidleaders and mentality, we have better balance than we had in years. I tried to explain this balance with saying that even though damage/healing is different on both sides, the outcome is balanced. Apparently you and Matty seem to furiously disagree with that. Well okay, feel free to do so, but I doubt you can disagree with the bigger point I try to get across.

  8. #2258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    Hehe yeah he told me, sorry I was just kidding I knew you enjoyed the spar. For me it was the best spar of the evening, it took a while, was really close and I felt proud as you are definitely one of the toughest burglars.
    Thank you, i feel the same. Now as i have ranked i think that i have those 500 morale that I've missed :P Hope we will meet soon at lc, mate
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  9. #2259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    Well lets go back to a few facts then:
    1. Raid fights are pretty balanced. When numbers are even, the fights take 10-15 minutes, both sides make kills and both sides have an even chance of wiping.
    2. There's class diversity. A raid is filled up with many different classes. Unlike in the past (when there was less balance) and more obvious overpowered and easymode classes. Raids (if there were any) were then filled with the FOTM class. Nowadays there isn't a single class that is explicitly more present in a raid. On both sides this is the case.
    3. There are plenty of raid leaders online and during prime time there's almost always a raid.
    4. Except for SoA there have never been more PvMP players than now.
    I do agree with some points you make Ward, particularly raid balance, which isn't too bad at the moment. But - and this is a big but - for creeps we rely very very much on having high rank (or relatively high rank) Warleaders in the raid to get that balance. Their auras for one thing, also their big AoE heals, AoE rez, and the hi-end banners. Without at least 4 decently ranked Warleaders in the craid balance will tip very noticeably to the freeps. On the other hand freeps have a little bit more wiggle room on class selection, having three healing classes to chose from. Then again, I'd imagine their desire for Captains is quite as strong as ours for Warleaders.

    On DoTs, we will differ as far as BA dots are concerned. Only on that class can I speak with any experience tbh. BA dots suck massively. We have two of them. Each one hits for somewhere like 150 - 200 damage. They tick every 2 seconds for 20 seconds. They cannot stack either (from the same BA), as any dot you have on a target expires before the cooldown is up. I've been dotted to death many a time by far more powerful dots than this, (by tanking classes, healing classes, and support classes) and by dots that last far longer, can stack on top of each other, and cannot be potted. This is not QQ btw. I understand that a BA is more of a sustained DPS class (having some nuke too), unlike say a spider, which is more the dot specialist. I'd presume their dots to be far better.

  10. #2260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    On DoTs, we will differ as far as BA dots are concerned. Only on that class can I speak with any experience tbh. BA dots suck massively. We have two of them..
    Don't forget that two things that you put on ground (fire trap and snare?) Oh, I hate those things :P
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  11. #2261
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    Yes indeed, Fire Traps are awesome Not a huge Area of effect tho, takes time to cast, and of course only works if someone stands in it. But I didn't include that as I wasn't online at the time and couldn't remember what the values were. Now I am I can tell you that Fire Trap for me delivers 510 fire damage initially, and 510 fire damage every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. So pretty potent, but again, requires a player to stand in it.

    I'm not traited for Snares, but the default one hits for 169 common damage every 2 secs for 20 seconds, and slows by -40%.

  12. #2262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    So pretty potent, but again, requires a player to stand in it.
    Just try to put it down in middle of RvR fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    takes time to cast,
    In 1v1 i keep Addle of CD just because of that
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  13. #2263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    I do agree with some points you make Ward, particularly raid balance, which isn't too bad at the moment. But - and this is a big but - for creeps we rely very very much on having high rank (or relatively high rank) Warleaders in the raid to get that balance. Their auras for one thing, also their big AoE heals, AoE rez, and the hi-end banners. Without at least 4 decently ranked Warleaders in the craid balance will tip very noticeably to the freeps. On the other hand freeps have a little bit more wiggle room on class selection, having three healing classes to chose from. Then again, I'd imagine their desire for Captains is quite as strong as ours for Warleaders.
    Completely true. But in my opinion, the same counts for all classes. A creep raid needs all classes. BA for range, reaver for melee, spider for aoe slow and debuffs/stuns/damage, defiler for HoTs and blight and last but not least the most fun class of all: a warg for scouting, interrupts and damage. Missing one class makes a huge difference. We all have important roles (although I admit a high ranked WL is most essential). I'm not sure about freepside but I guess it's the same for them. I love to see that raids are filled up with combination of classes again and it's great to see it's effective and improves the balance and duration of raid fights.

  14. #2264
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    Completely true. But in my opinion, the same counts for all classes. A creep raid needs all classes. BA for range, reaver for melee, spider for aoe slow and debuffs/stuns/damage, defiler for HoTs and blight and last but not least the most fun class of all: a warg for scouting, interrupts and damage. Missing one class makes a huge difference. We all have important roles (although I admit a high ranked WL is most essential). I'm not sure about freepside but I guess it's the same for them. I love to see that raids are filled up with combination of classes again and it's great to see it's effective and improves the balance and duration of raid fights.
    For freep its a little different because we have multiple classes filling the same roles.

    I would say Minstrels are essential. (Or RKs, so even Minnies arent essential as long as RKs can replace, tho which is better is a bigger debate),

    Wardens are not necessary, but can be nice for AoE fears/interrupts.

    RKs are not necessary if you have enough Hunters and Minstrels.

    Captains are ESSENTIAL. 1 per group.

    Hunters are essential (hard to replace them fully with RKs)

    Champs are essential.

    Burglars i think are debateable. there have been updates where raiding burgs are really rare, ive been in a fair few raids with no burgs that went ok. They are good for some melee DPS, AoE slows and interupts. (freep burgs dont really scout much though, not as much point with maps for you)

    Guardians are not needed, but shield wall can be nice, often its not worth the slot it takes up.

    LMs are imo essential, but they have to be good ones who can SI his whole 6 man raid group. (Ud be surprised how many cant), they also bring really nice AoE damage and tar.

    off the top of my head thats what i would say for freeps - and based on that, i would say you can fight with 1 Minstrel, 1 captain, 2 hunters, 1 champ, and 1 LM in each group.

    For creeps its not very nice on turbines part that you have to rely on store for a lot of your essential skills (Before store skills update, Blight was rank 13? for normal and 14 or 15 for improved, so without store only Woblah and 2-3? others would even have it. Blight is a very good skill. (you would perhaps again be surprised how many just stand in it). Tho u attempt to trick us with warg's yellow puddles.
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  15. #2265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    I would say Minstrels are essential. (Or RKs, so even Minnies arent essential as long as RKs can replace, tho which is better is a bigger debate),
    Out of interest, wouldn't it be useful to have the two types of healing in a raid? RKs for the HoTs and minstrels for the "big heals"? I prefer having a WL and defiler in my group so I get spam HoTs from the defiler and the big heals from a WL. Wouldn't that be useful for freeps as well? I might be very wrong here, I'm just interested as I find this an interesting topic to talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    Wardens are not necessary, but can be nice for AoE fears/interrupts.
    To be honest, I'm not afraid of Wardens at all in raid fights. Fears aren't a problem at all because there's so much AoE (champions, LMs) that I always get hit out of fear within a second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    Captains are ESSENTIAL. 1 per group. Hunters are essential (hard to replace them fully with RKs) Champs are essential.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    Burglars i think are debateable. there have been updates where raiding burgs are really rare, ive been in a fair few raids with no burgs that went ok. They are good for some melee DPS, AoE slows and interupts. (freep burgs dont really scout much though, not as much point with maps for you)
    Hehe yeah, maps make scouting a lot easier. Wargs are also quicker in stealth than burglars and usually have more stealth level. We also have tracks so perfect combination to scout. However, burglars nuke damage and survivability make them really annoying during a raid fight (talking from creep perspective). Most WLs or defilers hate it when a burglar is attacking them. You can't kill them quickly, so they are usually ignored during a fight, yet deal some nasty damage and continuously annoy our healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    Guardians are not needed, but shield wall can be nice, often its not worth the slot it takes up.
    From creep perspective again, I hate guardians! Their constant shield walls and survivability make them tough and annoying opponents. Are they really a waste of space in a raid? Interesting that freeps think about it like that and most creeps have the opposite view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    LMs are imo essential, but they have to be good ones who can SI his whole 6 man raid group. (Ud be surprised how many cant), they also bring really nice AoE damage and tar.
    Agreed, LMs are important in raids. Out of interest though, do LMs really have to put SI on ALL freeps in their group? I remember when I played LM in Ettens many years ago we just had to put SI on minstrel. I would hate it if I'd to put SI on all freeps in your group all the time. It means a LM is pretty much only busy with spamming SI. Sounds boring imo. There aren't many wargs around these days (usually one 2 in a creep raid), so shouldn't SI on just the healer be enough? I might be very wrong here, I don't know anything about freep tactics, it's just that I find these perspective differences interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    off the top of my head thats what i would say for freeps - and based on that, i would say you can fight with 1 Minstrel, 1 captain, 2 hunters, 1 champ, and 1 LM in each group.
    I pretty much agree, although I think it wouldn't hurt either if you had swap one hunter for a burglar or guardian. Although again, I'm talking from creep perspective so might be very wrong when it comes to your perspective as a freep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    For creeps its not very nice on turbines part that you have to rely on store for a lot of your essential skills (Before store skills update, Blight was rank 13? for normal and 14 or 15 for improved, so without store only Woblah and 2-3? others would even have it. Blight is a very good skill. (you would perhaps again be surprised how many just stand in it). Tho u attempt to trick us with warg's yellow puddles.
    Blight is rank 10 as far as I know, but yeah even then almost all defilers buy that skill. Although we rely on high ranks anyway. High ranks usually have max audacity and in my opinion that's really a must for creeps these days. Besides, I get free 500 turbine points a month and I honestly don't know what to buy with it, so I bought all skills on my defiler and don't regret it. I think more creeps have the same issue so buying skills from store isn't that bad. I even have turbine points left and no idea what to do with it.


    Edit: wanted to add that we can both conclude freeps need a combination of classes as well and rely on different roles. Although you were perfectly right when saying freep classes can fill in different roles. Point remains that teamwork and class differences is the key to victory. The fact it also balances out well makes PvMP enjoyable for me. The only thing I'm pessimistic about is skill lag, but other than that I'm very happy with the current state of the Ettenmoors. Of course it's a minor disappointment that Odo still seems to be ruining the pleasant atmosphere with his frequent Ettenmoors visits, but hey you can't have everything.
    Last edited by Wardrat; Oct 02 2013 at 03:30 PM.

  16. #2266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    Burglars i think are debateable. there have been updates where raiding burgs are really rare, ive been in a fair few raids with no burgs that went ok. They are good for some melee DPS, AoE slows and interupts. (freep burgs dont really scout much though, not as much point with maps for you)
    I would never call myself raiding burg, since most of my time i spend solo. But i find myself useful in interrupting defilers and spam silence on WLs(can't even imagine how much they hate that). And i do scout a lot, Odo and Feardo ask me to do every time i join their raids. I spent my time in raid mostly away from raid looking for creeps.
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  17. #2267
    on Guardians Ward, it might just be that they have always been pretty rare in ettens so its just that we have adjusted to not having them. They dont outDPS most DPS classes so all they really bring is shield wall. which if useful, but limited.

    Blight was rank 13 before RoR and the store update, at that time there was many skills still at rank 10+, but after the update all base skills was available by rank 10, and i think 10+ is now traits and improved skills.

    Having RKs and Minstrels is...tricky. sure if its still one healer per group, any more takes up valuable DPS space, you cant realistically have 1 healing min and 1 healing RK in each group. personally i think RKs are better in terms of ettens healing, because they have so many bubbles, which helps combat healing debuffs. Minstrel however is better at buffing in raids, with anthems and things, you can keep 2 up, and 1 is 15% melee damage and 10% tactical and ranged damage to your group - you can keep that up permanently. Thats pretty powerful. Also anthem of composure for 3.6k resist and 1.2k tactical mit. + a few others are useful. Fellows heart also means that ure group should be fine for 30 seconds. the debate between the 2 goes on and on tho.

    My favourite LM friend says he can keep Si on all 6 and still have time to Heal/DPS.
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  18. #2268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirkaster View Post
    And i do scout a lot, .............................. ...... I spent my time in raid mostly away from raid............
    Welcome to my world

    If i had 1 comms for every metre i have covered for our raids - I'd be maxed out several times over in a single night

    If I had 10 infamy for evey track you put on me - I'd have ranked up another level by now too
    Last edited by BiteMarks; Oct 02 2013 at 03:36 PM.
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  19. #2269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    Wargs are also quicker in stealth than burglars and usually have more stealth level
    With few gold items, i have pretty much high stealth level. As well with coffee and gambler set i think that speed is pretty much same, burg is just bit slower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    Most WLs or defilers hate it when a burglar is attacking them.
    I am sure of that ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardrat View Post
    so they are usually ignored during a fight,
    For some reason I am first one to die in freep raid mostly :'( Could swear that i am first on your rat :P TnG helps a bit to your RATs change target
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  20. #2270
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirkaster View Post
    I would never call myself raiding burg, since most of my time i spend solo. But i find myself useful in interrupting defilers and spam silence on WLs(can't even imagine how much they hate that). And i do scout a lot, Odo and Feardo ask me to do every time i join their raids. I spent my time in raid mostly away from raid looking for creeps.
    I forgot about silence on WLs...very useful. scouting tho, my point still stands that its not as useful as creep scouting. often we are surprised by creeps.
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  21. #2271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    scouting tho, my point still stands that its not as useful as creep scouting. often we are surprised by creeps.
    All down to our wonderful scouts
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  22. #2272
    A healing RK in moors is amazing. we can give buffs also and don't 4get 1 of the most important of rk skills mincies just cant compete with and that's All fates entwined........

  23. #2273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areya121 View Post
    scouting tho, my point still stands that its not as useful as creep scouting.
    That is true, you cant imagine my 'happiness' when i need to go LC or Tir from grams.. or something like that ^^
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  24. #2274
    Quote Originally Posted by Deniorona View Post
    A healing RK in moors is amazing. we can give buffs also and don't 4get 1 of the most important of rk skills mincies just cant compete with and that's All fates entwined........
    Agree. Healing RKs really are better in terms of pure healing. Minstrels are better at buffs though. u have no group spike heals such as TS tho which is pretty useful. ure bubbles make up for it tho i think. and yes, fates is nice.
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  25. #2275
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    A rare illustration of Deagor performing the final blow on Odo. The unfair loss of his race and his inconvenience caused by the server's lag, are keenly described on his face.

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