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  1. #4851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ketth View Post
    ...

    That was mean, with Pina we have always awesome laugh.
    I am sure it'll be some fun for creeps. Not so for freeps though.
    You can't imagine how /frustrated/p*ssed/mad ppl are when they see him appear. On Saturday creeps were rating through him. No light armour class was able to last for more than 2 seconds through those multiple dots plus the complementary dps.

    Assuming the weavers equivilant on freep side being the LM and assuming he offensively acts as a single character. Now imagine ONE LM throwing 6 sticky gourds at you followed by 6 Ents, 6 BE + whatnot x 6.
    Bytonras R7 Guardian, Tumion R10 Lore-master

  2. #4852
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beornson View Post
    I am sure it'll be some fun for creeps. Not so for freeps though.
    You can't imagine how /frustrated/p*ssed/mad ppl are when they see him appear. On Saturday creeps were rating through him. No light armour class was able to last for more than 2 seconds through those multiple dots plus the complementary dps.

    Assuming the weavers equivilant on freep side being the LM and assuming he offensively acts as a single character. Now imagine ONE LM throwing 6 sticky gourds at you followed by 6 Ents, 6 BE + whatnot x 6.
    Lmao, weaver's potency is nowhere close to the LM's, if you want to compare it dps-wise then already 1 Ents or 1 Sticky gourd has way more dps than those 6 weavers. It's also nothing unusual for me to have 2 rows of the LM DoTs.

  3. #4853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beornson View Post
    I am sure it'll be some fun for creeps. Not so for freeps though.
    You can't imagine how /frustrated/p*ssed/mad ppl are when they see him appear. On Saturday creeps were rating through him. No light armour class was able to last for more than 2 seconds through those multiple dots plus the complementary dps.

    Assuming the weavers equivilant on freep side being the LM and assuming he offensively acts as a single character. Now imagine ONE LM throwing 6 sticky gourds at you followed by 6 Ents, 6 BE + whatnot x 6.
    Each of my dot crits for maybe 500 max, ~10% crit rating.

    LM attacks are at least 1k non crit.

    And btw, i remember on the west bridge we all attacked a LM, took about 30!! seconds to kill him without shield on him or whatever. Just selfheals and some heals from other people. 6 spiders and about 5 to 10 other creeps were on him.

    So you can't really compare to 6x LM ents, gourd etc.

    I seem to have most trouble killing LM and GRDs, the rest is easy without audacity....

  4. #4854
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    Sorry, but those are just excuses LM is made to be like that. Is it OP? Yes, definetly, but that doesn't give you the right to just faceroll ettens as 6 spiders Although lately i haven't seen in ettens, as 6 spiders anyway... so that was nice

    Also, people that pvp, CHOOSE A SIDE. You can all go creep side, i don't care, just choose a side -.- Yesterday freeps farmed the creeps at the gy all day, creeps made a raid and freeps started switching. We had about 12-14 maybe with 1-2 leeches, and nothing else. Was rather annoying, didn't have any heals either so i had to disband cause we couldn't do anything.
    Heordwyn - Rank 10 - Hunter
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  5. #4855
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    Multi-boxing and third party software

    Abstract: We should not be discussing multi-boxing with the people actually doing it, but with Turbine who seems to be holding double standards in words and actions. The issue of multi-boxing is being confused with using third party software. The game rules clearly state that using third party software is not allowed. What we are seeing with the multi-boxing issue is that a lot of people are actually using third party software to control their characters. In-game reports seem to be dismissed with no further action taken. The current outrage at Turbine over the inaction and lack of communication on this and related issues have prompted a response. Community manager Sapience stated that they “are looking at ways to track those who are taking advantage of this system” but “action is still a ways off”. It is important that we keep being vocal about this in direct address to Turbine and their community managers, urging them to swift action.


    It is absolutely useless to keep debating the ethics of multi-boxing since it is clear neither side will be able to convince the other.

    It is abundantly clear that multi-boxing detracts from the enjoyment experienced playing the game for most other people, with the obvious exception of the multi-boxers themselves. When it seems to me the only ones actually in favor of it are getting a kick out of seeing how their actions affect other people negatively. Maybe because they fail to make any kind of meaningful impact on others in face-to-face contact or for making some sort of point that eludes me. When people voice their irritations about it, either in-game or on the forums, the responses by those in favor of multi-boxing are often not meant to convince but to further irritate and provoke anger for their enjoyment. To try and keep this discussion going seems in that respect self-defeating and only fueling further resentment instead of motivating change.

    The solution lies in my opinion with Turbine; by creating an atmosphere where fair-play and polite manners towards others should be the guidelines on which concrete rules are created and revised according to community feedback. Turbine however, being a company, has to make as high a profit as possible for their shareholders. They will usually choose for the path that 'seems' to be the one with the highest monetary gain. It is our duty to make them realize that they are actually degrading the attractiveness of their product by allowing this type of play-style. We should not be discussing this with the people actually doing the multi-boxing, but with Turbine who seems to be holding double standards as I will explain below.

    As an entertainment product LoTRO relies upon having as many people as possible actually enjoying the game and respecting the developers for their effort, increasing the chance that they will spend money. Part of this enjoyment has to come from the interactions with other players. The other side of the coin is that player interaction can equally prevent or even ruin the enjoyment for some. A big part of this is only natural but as a company Turbine is aware of it as an influence on their profits. They create rules to discourage people from undertaking all too disruptive behavior, like for example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Code of Conduct
    “4. While playing the Game or participating in related services, you may not exhibit or partake in behavior that is disruptive to the Game’s normal playability, causes grief or alarm to other players, or degrades the service performance or other players’ client software”
    (http://archive.lotro.com/support/1033-coc).

    Many European players feel that Turbine does not act on these guidelines as strictly as they had become accustomed to after years of Codemasters’ in-game service. My own and others’ in-game reports have been closed with the standard replies. Offenders are still around the next day and it seems as if no action has been taken. Maybe there are good reasons why some of the particular reports do not get acted upon (like proof), but the impression remains that Turbine chooses for money instead of resolving the issues.

    This looks to me like the continuation of a trend that started with the transition to Turbine, the introduction of the free-to-play model and the accompanying shop. People were promised in so many words that the game would not become ‘pay-to-win’ and that the shop would only offer ‘convenience’ instead of ‘advantage’. When later it seemed our definition of ‘convenience’ was getting stretched by Turbine and cries of outrage on the forums were mostly being ignored by community managers. By introducing more and more game-mechanics and items that left the shop as the only option to acquire them within a reasonable amount of time we have strangely grown accustomed to this duality of Turbine in words and deeds, and we have generally stopped holding them accountable for it.

    When this frustration becomes intolerable many will simply give up, stop playing as many of the people I used to play with in the past have done. It seemed to us as if Turbine would do their own thing anyway and kept throwing us bones attached to fishing lines as with the 2 times promised new PvMP map that never came.

    Now the official rules of the game clearly state that:

    Quote Originally Posted by EULA
    “You may not develop, distribute or host any server or software designed to interact with the Game Client or to redirect or emulate the communications protocols used by Turbine”
    (http://archive.lotro.com/support/policies/218-eula).

    What we are seeing with the multi-boxing issue is that a lot of people are actually using third party software to control their characters after Turbine announced on their forums that playing multiple accounts at once was not something they viewed as fundamentally wrong. They forgot to add that third party software is not allowed, either as an oversight or a conscious business choice, we will not know for sure. But it has led to the issue of multi-boxing and using third party software usually being confused.

    At the moment the outrage at Turbine over the inaction and lack of communication on the issues of rank-farmers and multi-boxers in the Ettenmoors seems to have reached a tipping point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cillion
    [...] You (sapience) have a few times now complained that "we" the Players always ask Questions,or make posts about Issues in the wrong way with many violations of rules etc,so you close the Thread or ignore the Questions. I understand that,and i accept it..
    Now i would like to know if you actually CAN talk to us,or help us talk to the right person in the right manner about an issue,cause as sad as it makes me i do not own the phone number of your staff,so all i can do is make a post here and hope some Mod/CM/Dev takes time to read once in a while and work with the feedback or work with the community..
    One Thread that has high views/replies and rating,talks about an issue is the following one : http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...bing-is-enough
    So Sapience,
    can you get someone actually involved with decision making considering "Rules" to comment on this issue in that Thread?
    We know it is not against the Rules,we are asking WHY NOT? and so far we got ignored...
    How about a reasoning behind the decision to NOT make this "exploit of the system" (as one of your own Developers called it) against the Rules?
    Or can you tell me how we are supposed to get an answer to that Question without a forum post that gets ignored/locked?
    Since you were saying the way we post is wrong,i think you can show us how to do it right and get answers or some sort of communication,am i correct?
    We are willing to listen,are you willing to talk?
    (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?508789-Sapience)

    Prompting the ‘community managers’ to throw us another bone in an attempt to quell the unrest on their forums before (surprise) closing the thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience
    It's a topic we've kept an eye on, but have not responded to for a number of reasons. primarily is that we've seen people report this falsely in an attempt to grief others and turn GMs into a weapon to use against other players. Tracking and proving actually exploits is not as easy as most may think. We're also very aware that often times PvMP players enact their own 'code of conduct' that doesn't match with ours.
    [...]
    But to your current qestion, and that thread, we are looking at ways to track those who are taking advantage of this system in ways we did not intend. Once we have that in place we will start to take a look at appropriate action to take against those players. And yes, very lengthy and possibly lifetime bans are a very real possibility.
    (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?508789-Sapience)

    Most of the direct community responses were positive, maybe even too positive as Sapience quickly felt the need to ‘manage our expectations downward’:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience
    Let me be clear, since already my comments are being expanded upon and taken out of context. I said we are investigating ways to track certain behaviours. Action is still a ways off. Though we have not taken any possible action off the table once we have a reliable means of proving players performed certain actions.

    So let's not jump the gun or go beyond what I actually said.
    So for Turbine there seems to be an awareness growing now that this kind of game-play is disturbing other peoples experience to an extent that it might hurt their profits. However as Sapience said: “action is still a ways off”. They obviously want to address the issue but at the same time keep it possible for people to play multiple accounts at once.

    So multi-boxing OK, third party software NOT OK. This seems reasonable enough for me. Playing multiple accounts without the help of third party software reduces the attractiveness of doing it in situations where contact with other people is required (Raiding and PvMP etc.). I think people playing 6 spiders at once would quickly lose interest when only using the in-game mechanics, because it would simply not give as big an advantage as third party software does when fighting other players. Certain advantages like sharing quests, deeds and group-loot would remain but they are far less disruptive for other players. Even though personally I dislike this play-style it would be something I could live with. As long as I don’t have to see it I would grudgingly grant Turbine the income from these people. The real issue is then that Turbine does not act on their rule against third party software because “it is hard to proof”.

    It is important that we keep being vocal about this, not against the multi-boxers themselves but in direct address to Turbine and their community managers. Whatever may seem an obvious instance of third party software use to us as users, the GM's might only be able to act on more concrete proof. If Turbine is not able to enforce their own rules then that is what we can hold against them. Keeping them accountable for their written rules and judging them on actions, not promises. We’ve got the ball rolling, we just have to keep kicking it forward.
    Felathurin - Agathe - Serindel - Brunty
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  6. #4856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felathurin View Post
    ...
    Which one?
    A)



    B)



    C)


    (Vote in the replies below, please.)

  7. #4857
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    Thumbs up

    I sort of agree, multiboxing is ok, as , well, it does take some skill manually controlling 6 different characters at the same time, but with third party software its a bit... cheating...
    I have only ever met Pina and his 6 spiders once (in HH), probably didn't see me, as I was in Stealth and as soon as I saw you, I slunk away, I was in one of those moods where I just felt like running around the map not attacking anything, just watching other fights, but I was pretty impressed when I saw them all. Also...
    Do you have to pay for 6 different VIP accounts or can you buy Creep classes off the store? Just out of curiosity...
    [center][color=teal][b][u]LAURELIN
    Master Guardsman Seraile-100 Burglar | Flandar-89 Lore-Master | Falethir-50 Guardian[/u][/b][/color][/center]

  8. #4858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraile View Post
    Do you have to pay for 6 different VIP accounts or can you buy Creep classes off the store? Just out of curiosity...
    You can buy a creep class for about 800 TP, so no need to VIP to play creep.
    [IMG]http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/254/6rpe.jpg[/IMG][FONT=Verdana]
    Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Felathurin aka Brunt)[/FONT]

  9. #4859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felathurin View Post
    Multi-boxing and third party software
    It is absolutely useless to keep debating the ethics of multi-boxing since it is clear neither side will be able to convince the other.

    It is abundantly clear that multi-boxing detracts from the enjoyment experienced playing the game for most other people, with the obvious exception of the multi-boxers themselves. When it seems to me the only ones actually in favor of it are getting a kick out of seeing how their actions affect other people negatively. Maybe because they fail to make any kind of meaningful impact on others in face-to-face contact or for making some sort of point that eludes me. When people voice their irritations about it, either in-game or on the forums, the responses by those in favor of multi-boxing are often not meant to convince but to further irritate and provoke anger for their enjoyment. To try and keep this discussion going seems in that respect self-defeating and only fueling further resentment instead of motivating change.
    I fear that you are right, at least the course of the discussion up to now suggests so.

    Reading your citations and comments about the EULA I thought that a rework of the latter might be due. It reads as if not only Pina would need to use 6 keybords and 6 mice (which he is allowed to physically bind together though [not software that!]), but also that add-ins like buffbars, combat analysis etc. are not permitted even though Turbine has created a "plugin-manager" to integrate such third party tools.

    I think you wrote an excellent post about the issue. Maybe you can share it with your kinmate Belegwe? Turbine should be listening to him at least.
    Bytonras R7 Guardian, Tumion R10 Lore-master

  10. #4860
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    Brunt i didn't fully read your post, but scanned a bit through it, though i understand a bit what you are trying to say.

    I will explain once more why it's allowed:

    -Even though third party software is being used, it does not modify the game client. And it's not against the rules Turbine created. You can say Windows 98/XP/7/8, Mac, Teamspeak/Ventrilo etc is third party too, but nobody ever got banned for using those programs.
    -The program used does not allow macro's, botting or any way that modifies the game client.
    -Even though some people get upset, because they got killed by a player that is multiboxing, the same players can experience a lot of happiness when they kill me (6 dead spiders vs 1 dead freep at a time)
    -PvMP has always been a place with high emotions, some people even consider rapidly pressing Spacebar on a dead person is grieving.
    -I am behind the pc that controls the characters, generally in every game multiboxing is allowed as long as someone is behind the keyboard. If this wasn't the case, it would be called botting.
    -There are many ways to kill a multiboxer. But most people see a multiboxer as 1 character and try to fight it. People should see it as 6 different characters/players and require to group up to kill them. (but even 1 OP freep can kill at least 1 spider if it's 6 vs 1, imagine 6 freeps all attacking me at the same time)

    For more info on how to kill a multiboxer, check my post history and bookmark the page, it's really helpful. A champ i fought a few weeks ago probably read it and was able to kill 1 spider and i had trouble killing him.

    To Seraile:
    They are all premium accounts atm. I bought the weaver class when it was on -20% sale with TP i obtained on freep + the VIP bonus i had for 1 month. No perma VIP needed once you buy the class.

  11. #4861
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    Ah right, fair enough...
    I would have thought that a group of ~2 burgs and 2 dps machines (champs/hunters/wardens) could take you down fairly easy if at least 1 burg was traited yellow, with the improved poison removal.... I'm not sure about Weaver direct damage skills, but I know that the DoTs are what usually takes me down (I'm traited 5 red+2 Blues, unless asked to debuff and remove poison in big raids)...

    But I'm not the most experienced one to talk.

    On another note, some awesome fights yesterday, I thought, between TA and EC, really enjoyed them! Thanks!
    [center][color=teal][b][u]LAURELIN
    Master Guardsman Seraile-100 Burglar | Flandar-89 Lore-Master | Falethir-50 Guardian[/u][/b][/color][/center]

  12. #4862
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    Good action tonight all my spiders got 2k rating at 1 point. Then in lug i didn't know the creepraid jumped out/mapped/died and 3 lost the 2k.... QQ!!!!!!! YOU FREEPS ARE SO OP!!!!! AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH.

  13. #4863
    Completed: Monster-Slayer -- Tier 5.

    Finally got my Warlord-Kb deed done (Around. 20,500 total KBs mark) Week before Turbine does that stupid idiotic deed-change... hah in your face Turbine!

    Action has been pretty weird lately, sometimes its just complete other side dominating other side, sometimes its back and forth and sometimes theres just no action at all.. but hey thats the Moors!

    Btw gotta give credit to anyone who plays Creep atm, specially the ones that play Solo/Without raidzergs. Most of freeps are rather OP atm, and certain creep classes could really use some buffs.. so good job with sticking them!

    To end this post..

    Buff WLs, Buff Defiler Dmg, Buff BAs, Buff Wargs!

    Nerf Wardens, Nerf LMs, Nerf Champs, Nerf Reavers ANNNNND....

    Nerf RKs (YES I SAID IT!)

    - Anoir


  14. #4864
    I'm thinking of jacking Lotro in for a while as action really isn't that great these days. So if I go FTP I know I've got to buy the creeps i want to keep back, but what happens to my L85 freeps and other stuff? I know its probably somewhere else on the forums but it's mostly about freepside and quest packages. I really just want to keep 3 L85 freeps and a couple of creeps.

  15. #4865
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    Gratz Anoir for the deed despite Turbine soon will make it worthless. Bad Turbine, bad.
    And don't forget to nerf minstrels...

    Gutter, you just need to buy your creep classes. Your 3 freeps will lose Moors access and quest packs you havent bought, but you still will be able of playing it. Being 85 you won't notice any mayor issue, only OD and some skirmish you will miss.
    [IMG]http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/254/6rpe.jpg[/IMG][FONT=Verdana]
    Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Felathurin aka Brunt)[/FONT]

  16. #4866
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    That was an interesting read Brunt, you raise some good points.
    Last edited by MrWarg; May 10 2013 at 03:01 AM.

  17. #4867
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    Lightbulb

    Ok Brunt i've read all your text this time, i was bored anyway.

    I don't think it gives me an advantage in raid vs raid fights. Not sure if you played yesterday evening, but fights were pretty balanced.

    Advantages:
    -All spiders follow the same target (nothing that can't be done with 6 different players)
    -I can put web on the ground in a row. (can also be done by good coordination with 6 different players)

    Disadvantages:
    -When leader gets CC'ed. All other spiders stop moving because they are on follow.
    -When another spider gets CC'ed, i can't quickly use a pot, i have to switch client and use it, by that time the CC is already gone. Or i can quickly use a pot on ALL spiders, which means i'm on cooldown.
    -When someone runs through me and attacks from behind, i have to run in an arc in order to hit that person, i can't just turn around like a normal person.
    -When a spider dies, i have to switch client and move him to the leader it's location. Which means i lose time fighting.
    -My infamy is divided by 6.
    -When you kill the leader, it takes time to switch leader.
    -When you have more then 2 freeps attacking me, you have easy 6x renown.

    I do not choose this play style to cause grief to other players. And i'm really sorry for the few people who think it's giving me a big advantage to other people. I am sure nobody was mad at me yesterday, because i died a lot of times. That is what makes PvMP. I am not mad at you for killing me either.

    Have fun, don't rage!

    Oh and this is the picture i wanted to share, it's for when i don't use software, but hardware:
    Last edited by DutchEZmoder; May 10 2013 at 05:12 AM.

  18. #4868
    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    Gutter, you just need to buy your creep classes. Your 3 freeps will lose Moors access and quest packs you havent bought, but you still will be able of playing it. Being 85 you won't notice any mayor issue, only OD and some skirmish you will miss.
    Ah thanks. I'm only interested in PvP, so if my freeps lose moors access theres no point. Just gotta work out if its worth a tenner a month to keep em going, sounds like it might be if action is starting to pick up again.....we can only hope....

  19. #4869
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    Quote Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder View Post
    Multi-box good because I like it
    Thanks for reinforcing my point that it is useless to discuss it with you

    P.S. the rule says 'interact' with the game client, not only modify. Which is ambiguous at best. If it is all things that can be done without using 3rd party software, why do people use it then? Certainly not because it gives them a disadvantage.
    Last edited by Felathurin; May 10 2013 at 07:20 AM.
    Felathurin - Agathe - Serindel - Brunty
    Warmonger Brunt R14 Reaver, Blunt "James" Defiler, Nurks Warleader
    Laurelin Server 'C.O.I.N. Caster'
    "Everything in life is vibration." A. Einstein

  20. #4870
    I like multi-box Pinalea Spiders, hard challenge.
    I wait see you in thread of Mighty Champion Solo List lol.
    Lancel Champion Rank13 - BRG R6 - CPT R6 -LM R5
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    HISPANEA FTW
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  21. #4871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felathurin View Post
    P.S. the rule says 'interact' with the game client, not only modify. Which is ambiguous at best. If it is all things that can be done without using 3rd party software, why do people use it then? Certainly not because it gives them a disadvantage.
    Like i said if you count it as interacting with the game client, then windows/mac/local machine time etc is not allowed either. /time the time on your machine is currently 25:60.

    Not sure about all the other multiboxers on our server, but i do it for the challenge it gives me. It's hard to setup, takes a lot of time and hard to control. But in the end it's satisfying when you manage to get a kill.

    In all MMO's multiboxing is allowed. In GW2 it was banned for a while, but the policy got changed, because they understand the advantages doesn't weight up to the disadvantages. And all GW2 accounts that were banned for multiboxing now got their ban removed.

  22. #4872
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    "ArenaNet does not prohibit Multi- or Dual-Boxing as along as the player is active on each account and is not botting or using other third-party programs to “play” the account" (Moderator 4th of May 2013).
    (https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/foru...boxing-allowed)

    I really don't want to argue with you about it since I think it is useless, but just to show others that are worth convincing that you are uninformed. You are again confusing the issue of multi-boxing with using third party software. And playing 6 spiders "for the challenge" is a contradiction in terms, why not play a single character and try to actually group up with and lead other people if you like 'a challenge'? Apart from that the third party software you use (as you told me which one) does give some obvious advantages from controlling them all manually.

    And it doesn't matter if we can kill you easier than 1 individually controlled characters, your still 1 person. Especially in small group action a potent tactical class like spider (x6) can dominate the outcome of a fight.

    edit: We should discuss it with Turbine, since there seems to room for interpretation on the used term 'interact'. If this rule is a relic from their previous policy to not allow third party software, then it should have been removed or altered. Apart from that there seems to be a realization growing with Turbine that they do consider some of this unintended game-play however vague: "we are looking at ways to track those who are taking advantage of this system in ways we did not intend" (Sapience). We should be convincing them that third party software is causing many of these unintended advantages because this statement is not pointing to any specific behavior apart from saying that it is taking advantage of the system. I consider our resident example multi-boxer as taking advantage of the system in a way that was not intended game-play for the Ettenmoors. Is this a stretch? I don't think so.
    Last edited by Felathurin; May 10 2013 at 02:39 PM.
    Felathurin - Agathe - Serindel - Brunty
    Warmonger Brunt R14 Reaver, Blunt "James" Defiler, Nurks Warleader
    Laurelin Server 'C.O.I.N. Caster'
    "Everything in life is vibration." A. Einstein

  23. #4873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felathurin View Post
    You are again confusing the issue of multi-boxing with using third party software.
    Erm... Are you sure it's him who confuses these two terms?

  24. #4874
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    939
    I was on Snowbourn multiboxing 6 spiders earlier, reactions vary from: You come multibox here now? to Respect to you man!

    Nice server. No QQ about my spiders. I might just play there more sometimes, maybe i will just play on both servers.

    Seems only Laurelin people are very good at QQ'ing.

  25. #4875
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder View Post
    I was on Snowbourn multiboxing 6 spiders earlier, reactions vary from: You come multibox here now? to Respect to you man!

    Nice server. No QQ about my spiders. I might just play there more sometimes, maybe i will just play on both servers.

    Seems only Laurelin people are very good at QQ'ing.
    I had a good laugh, thanks.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0100001356a0/signature.png]Grukgash[/charsig]
    [COLOR="#FF0000"][EN-RP] Laurelin[/COLOR]
    [I][FONT=Arial Narrow]Surgite atque resurgite dum agni leones fient.[/FONT][/I]

 

 
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