It's a Doggy Dogg World, it's a Doggy Dogg World
The Dogg's World
Last edited by Gutterat; Jul 23 2012 at 09:05 AM.
Connall you don't know what you are asking. Any nerfs to wargs will lead to bigger WPs, not smaller ones.
The equation is simple: powerful warg = solo kills is more infamy thus wargs play alone or in small groups
weak warg = no solo kills thus no infamy thus wargs group up.
My packs were always biggest when the warg was at its weakest. As to your lighting stealth debuff idea...a pipe dream and you know it.
You say unworkable or a pipe dream?
Perhaps, yes... BUT I believe it is achievable to a degree using existing tech:
Make each stealthed character, or just burgs and wargs entering stealth get a transferable infectious debuff giving minus 1 stealth level or minus 2 to group mates, not effecting the one who carries it, which transfers like effects in PvE raid boss fights based on proximity of say 15 meters for more than 5 seconds, onto nearby fellows or other players of same side with unlimited stackability, duration 30 seconds or one minute or something for the transferred debuff, so 5 wargs ALL staying within 15 meters of each other for 5 secons would each get - 5 stealth, or -10 if they were grouped, duration 1 minute, maybe the stacks could reside based upon numbers stacked so only one would go off after the timer meaning the bigger the gank squad the longer they had stealth debuffed.
This does not penalise solo wargs or stealthers but those who are bunching up a lot and especially when grouped up, it only effects their stealth not combat abilities as such, and Hips and Dissappear could make the player immune from the debuff for its duration or at least part of it to aid escape.
This could certainly work in group, and probably out of group as well. Main problem I see is adding more lag potential to creepside and wargs (yeay!)
Making all pieces of terrain coded as a "hotspot" of either neutral, minus or plus stealth is also quite feasible, and so all of grimwood could add +3 stealth, under the bridges could add + 5 stealth, TR fields and steps of gram (non wooded and bushy bits) would be -5 stealth etc.
Again, potential for more lag but that is due to Turbines shoddy servers which are making the ettens almost laughably unplayable at times anyway... They need to sport it out.
The most pipe dreamish bit is the sliding scale buff debuff for day and night - but they could easily apply it globally across the ettens with a switch on switch off mechanic - say -5 stealth in day + 5 in night using the clock and the monsterplay effect.
More deatail for that would be to go for -2 and +2 at different periods of the dusk and dawn period using the clock.
Comments, thoughts, suggestions?
In my opinion, being dependent on the group isn't a bad thing here. The Ettens are supposed to be a war zone and wars aren't fought alone. If you don't like it, there is plenty of content in the actual game, or the option to rank up and become less dependent on others. Also, on this server there is plenty of opportunity to spar, assuming no one will disrupt it and quests that can be done solo.
edit: To Connall: seems an idea with potential that probably needs fine tuning. If the main goal would be preventing (new) players getting ganked in their starting areas on such frequency, then I think both sides could agree to it. Whether it's freeps camping OC or the steps of Gram or Creeps camping GV, in general people don't like it. I think it also makes people lazy while it rewards pretty well. It also leads to people grouping up or setting up raids; A bad thing I've heard from someone... (Love raids myself)
edit 2: Forgot this myself. Why I think it's a good thing less people pick warg? I don't really dislike them; As most players here I think all players should try, or at least shouldn't be blamed, for making the most out of their class. The thing is that I personally like huge raids like we had yesterday and huge battles despite of the lag. (I believe we had about 35+ against 40+ creeps yesterday?) If people/wargs make the most out of their class, they use stealth and won't be found on the front lines of a battle. I have no experience at all on creep play (logged in a few times, but never long), but I doubt there will be many wargs in the bigger creep raids. Don't let stealth classes take over the Ettens please.
Last edited by Galrasragbor; Jul 23 2012 at 10:33 AM.
Conall regarding maps I think you might get your wish from the way I read the dev they want us to start using DOF (for creeps it's been surplus to requirements since comms came in) the only way for that to happen is to remove creep maps. As to WL and Def healing we will see, I hope they do a good job as I enjoy long fights and have noticed since audcity that raid v raid and 1v1 have started to be more contested, which can only be good for the ettens.
PS Joylil I'm getting paranoid.
Freeps keep droning on about 'smaller' packs or 'less' packs. Please get it through your heads there aren't really many packs of 4 or more. Yesterday I checked we had 25 wargs online on the tribe. Apart from me and ankle, all were running solo. (Solo = more infamy).
What I was aiming to do with my suggested stealth changes was make it harder for large numbers of stealthers to keep their stealth when operating in a small area, be they grouped or ungrouped.
A bought account? My join date says I joined in September; RoI came out in September. Besides, just about the whole server knows I have been random-kissing Elf maidens since I made it to Bree and the Prancing Pony around level 15.
What in God's name are you talking about?
1. I do not at all disagree that in PvP discrete damage is far more important than DPS (damage per second). In fact, in PvP, the higher discrete damage class will beat even the higher DPS class if everything else is equal.
I also do not disagree that this is because there is a lot of kiting in PvP. Afterall, my MMORPG life began in Dark Age of Camelot, where my earliest mentor told me "in PvP burst damage is king, because nobody stands and poses for you to continue to beat on him like PvE mobs do."
Finally, I do not disagree that Champions have a massive edge over Reavers in discrete damage.
Now, if you had initially clarified what you meant by "damage" and said you meant discrete or burst damage--and not DPS--and simply stopped at that, then we would never had this drawn-out argument in the first place.
But the problem is that you did continue on with the DPS argument and continue to try to justify what is simply unjustifiable--even though you say now this is a side issue. That's why I felt compelled to respond the DPS argument and will do so for hopefully one final time.
2. Now, let me summarize my earlier responses to your claim that--based on what a top PvP Champion on this server told you--PvP Champions can do x4 times DPS that a comparable Reaver can do. I know I've elaborated these arguments elsewhere but it is good to put them all in one single post:
a) The 1600 Galtrev dummy DPS number the said Champion quoted was an "estimate," he said. And estimate is an estimate. It is no more valid that your initial x4 claim or your recent claim that 90 percent of all auto-attacks are negated by good movement.
Now I can back up everything I say with screenshots of actual parses. And I won't accept what I find to be an unreasonable claim in a subject area I know well, unless I see hard evidence. Don't you agree that this is a reasonable stance? Also notice, because I parse stuff constantly--and therefore know what is in the realm of reasonable possibility--my "estimate" for my own PvP gear DPS was almost exactly what I did get minus the Flurry trait. Do you see the value in the habit of trying to be precise here?
b) Even if the said PvP Champion can hit 1600 in PvP build, do you realize how abnormal that is? Let me again give you an idea as a Champion who does nothing but research DPS and obsess over how to increase it. There are very few Champions on the server who can hit that mark in PvE gear, much less PvP gear. Even I was mired (pardon the pun) around that number with a First Ager available before I completely re-hauled my LI relic set-up out to be a pure "glass cannon" for PvE.
Basically to hit 1600 in PvP build, the said Champion has to essentially have a PvP build that is almost indistinguishable from his PvE build, considering that the PvP armor set will also greatly decrease his DPS as well.
Now, it is possible that the said Champion is so confident in his survival ability--or doesn't prioritize survival--to the point where he is essentially using his PvE build when he does PvP. But that is not the case with the vast majority of Champions in the game. Most of them stack morale and tactical mitigation, because there won't be tanks to taunt mobs away from you and often there won't be healers to heal you in PvP.
So even if the 1600 number is true, you are using a complete statistical outlier, a freakish anomaly like the man with a 13-inch (33 centimeters for those of you who use a different system) member, which brings me to the next point.
c) As I have repeatedly said, your comparison between that said Champion and your Reaver as a standard to measure Champion DPS v. Reaver DPS is invalid. Usually, with a comparison of this kind, you want to use either the top DPS Champion and the top DPS Reaver or the average DPS Champion and the average DPS Reaver. But you are comparing the top DPS Champion and someone who is not the top DPS Reaver (I've told you already the very Reaver who complained of the DPS gap in a thread you linked said he does 650--substantially more than your 400).
I don't think any of these three points are difficult to understand or accept, and I have a real difficulty understanding why it is becoming so for you and some others.
As a last comment, while I agree all this is a side issue, DPS is not completely irrelevant in the 'Moors either. We do a lot of PvE, and there may be even more PvE with the changes in the next expansion.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 23 2012 at 01:02 PM.
You are deluding yourself if you think a dev is going to give your idea even 2 seconds thought, it is WAY too much coding work for very little gain to an in the end minor problem.
All you guys focus on is the warg's stealth ability.
Stealth is not the culprit here, if it was, why isn't one out of 3 freeps a burglar? (wargs make up about 40% of creep side)
The culprit is that for a long time a lot of the other creep classes have been more or less unplayable.
You guys keep dreaming up ways to nerf wargs or nerf stealth, when those are neither the problem nor the solution.
Make the other creep classes better, make the reaver hit harder than a warg, make the WL more survivable, make the defiler better in everything etc.
40% of creeps don't play wargs because of stealth, 40% of creeps play warg because of freeps.
Last edited by Thoronthor; Jul 23 2012 at 01:06 PM.
Last edited by Gorgilh; Jul 23 2012 at 01:15 PM.
The only shadow of a point I could make out is that champs only do 1.5 times the damage of a reaver (that would be you lowballing your own results btw). Which is frankly laughable to anyone who has spend more than a week in the moors.
So please.....what is your point?
Why not more freeps are burglars? Well first of all because you'd have to level one to 75 first. Secondly, its because (after reading parts of the thread and others) Burglars apparantly are weaker than wargs.
I don't particulary get the logic behind the last part of your post (with all due respect). Yet, I think we agree to the big picture. "Wargs are overpowered compared to other creep classes/Other creep classes are underpowered compared to Wargs at the moment". Like you said, developers will most likely take the route taking the least efford to fix things if they fix it at all. I don't see why you want other classes buffed instead of wargs nerfed (I automatically assume the balance between freeps and creeps won't be altered), if the result will, or should be the same.
I don't need safety in numbers because I have Disappear and sprint.
I don't need numbers to prevent me getting ganked because I have stealth and can choose my targets.
I don't need a big group to catch targets because I have sprint.
I don't need keeps or a GY because I have stealth and maps and +stealth movement speed.
The only reasons to group up are:
2. To kill stuff I can't kill alone
I don't need 12 wargs in my pack for companionship.
ergo, the only reason to have big packs is to kill stuff you cant kill alone.
The more powerful the warg, the less reason to group up.
Hasta la vista.. see u in 6 month.. have fun
This lengthy, unproductive debate would never happened if Grolmog merely stuck to his argument that Reaver discrete or burst damage is massively lagging behind that of Champion discrete or burst damage. Even the x4 number would have been acceptable (though still arbitrary) in that context.
And yes, I am a nit-picker, but it's an intellectual and professional habit
P.S. Regarding how that huge gap in discrete or burst damage translates into in terms of the overall balance between the two classes: There are too many unknown (unknown for me) factors at play here for me to give an informed opinion at this point, including the at least partly counter-balancing Morale gap. Usually, other games have balanced the burst damage gap between melee classes by giving the lower burst damage class stuns and other "tricks" (e.g. Warrior v. Rogue in WOW). But the devs, at first impression, went at this issue in a strange fashion.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 23 2012 at 01:46 PM.
Freeps leveling has nothing to do with moors balance.
When burgs were Op there were dozens of burgs.
When hunters were Op there dozens of hunters.
Now champ and mincer are OP and they are all over the place.
For years there have been almost no Wardens in the moors, now they are powerful and you see them more each day.
If it is worth it, people will level it.
Add to that, Wargs need to be ranked as well before they are competitive. And before you mention the store, having the skills is worth little without having the experience and the battlefield promotions.
And Burglars are not weak by any stretch, it's just that now champs, mincers, wardens, guardians and RKs are far stronger. so they get played less.
Hmm wonder where I have seen that before.
Wargs are not OP, you just feel they are because there are so many of them.
And I say there are so many of them because the other creep classes are not as enjoyable to play.
So is the solution to make other creep classes more enjoyable?
or is the solution to make the warg less enjoyable?
Maybe it comes down to a matter of opinion but in my optic it is far better to buff than to nerf.
Thankfully, devs seem to agree with me.
I think that in the long run, sharing infamy/renown with others, especially low ranked players, will help your side in the ettens. A low ranked freep that is just starting out will have a terrible time at first and usually only starts to rank up if they get a group, or leech somewhere. Creeps have it even harder; I know I am a total noob when it comes to creep play, but I couldn't take away half a lifebar of any freep i came across before being taken out and being pounded into the dirt. So, unless veterans will take new players by the hand and help them rank up in a way, they will remain weak for ever, or worse, quit the Ettens/switch to the other side. At least according to me, the Ettens should offer a fight to two sides that continuiously fight for an edge over the other one. To do this you need teamwork, camaraderie and communication. If a few suck up all the renown/infamy, that would be great for a while, until it turns out that the other side will come out stronger, simply because they have more abled and ranked fighters. I'd say this is something that belongs in an MMORPG; Let pure individualists go play shooters or something. (no offence to anyone)
Apart from that, you show us exactly why new people would like to pick warg. Less dependency on others, low risk high gain and some perks that make it easier to catch prey/run away.
Again, we also don't care about how large the packs are. I at least care about an overkill of wargs on the server (Does the same thing happen on other servers?) which is a logical result of what you just described. People also care about getting ganked, which results in more freeps banding together and raids.
I get the impression that with how things are now, the best way to discourage more wargs to come onto the server is to have raids up any time possible which makes it impossible/hard for them to prey on small groups or solists. Again, I don't hate the class, but I prefer open battles and raids from both sides, which won't happen if an even bigger percentage of players will pick a stealth class.
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