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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    The classes of lotro

    Please respond with what you think should be modified.

    Since it is still getting hits after 3 years of not playing, I think it should be made more accurate, so people aren't mislead.

    Ratings are not rankings.
    There is not a 10 for best, 9 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd.. in some categories classes are near equals..
    Instead 10 is the highest, 9 is slightly less, and can be shared by two classes.. though there should be only one 10.
    Last edited by Dyfrin; Nov 10 2015 at 09:28 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: The classes of lotro

    I've done this hundreds of time just myself, and I really like the categories: not too limiting (I did 4 categories once) and not too extensive (I did 30 categories once... yeah).
    One that may be missing is aggro management (de-threat, give threat, force-taunt, pet tanks, etc.)

    That being said, I think the RK's buffs (word of exaltation, do not fall to X) and debuffs (fall to X, all but one of their frost skills) need to be more recognized.

    The mini's buffs even more so, with their ballads/anthems/calls/tales, they are in some ways as potent as a captain. Mini's CC should be upped a bit too for their mezz & fear.

    LM's buffs... SoP:R and :V, and their birdie's auras. They definitely exist.

    I would call EC and FD by their actual name for those who may not know them that intimately, as with Fellowship Maneuvers....and call Lyric of the Hammerhand by name, or at least "Power Shield". We don't have mana.

    Overall, pretty cool.
    [SIZE="1"]Bandiwise ~ Hobbit Burglar - - - Bandielle ~ Hobbit Guardian
    Bandilac ~ Hobbit Warden - - - Bandithil ~ Elf Rune-Keeper[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="1"]Shroomble ~ Hobbit Minstrel - - - Trufflege ~ Hobbit Hunter[/SIZE][/CENTER]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Just at a glance, I like it. Well done with the formatting. Should help new players quite nicely.

    However, the critiques:

    Your Burg and Champ Burst DPS appear to be equal; in my experience, the Burg has far greater initial burst potential than the Champ.

    You rate the Burg as the top in Survivability, but that really can only apply in a group/raid situation. Perhaps you should split the survivability categories? A good Warden can survive far more solo than any Burg.

    Hunters tend to have power issues without a pocket LM; their sustainable DPS is somewhat iffy, and overclassed by RK's in any case.

    RK's have horrid burst DPS (I'm thinking from a combat initiating viewpoint here, so EC does not factor in =P)

    I'm probably more than a little biased here, but I think you've way underrated both Warden Sustained DPS and Survivability. Wardens can stack more bleed effects than nearly any class except the RK, courtesy of the spear special trait. And.... I really can't comprehend your survivablility rating in anything but a raid setting. SO again, perhaps you should split that?

    All that aside, good job. If you feel like fleshing it out though, you may want to add:

    Survivability solo/group
    Possibly initial burst vs. spike damage? That seems to be what you mean when you say burst; but I've always thought of burst as the opening volley, and spike is mostly crit rates and super skills.

    Great job!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Is there math to backup the ratings?
    By the way, I like the way you present the data. Nice graphs.

  5. #5

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Some thoughts on the Captain:

    Survivability - We're less survivable than a mini? Our ability to survive is how we win most fights, because our DPS is so low many fights are wars of attrition. I know Mini's have much better self heals and stuns, but between our armor, Morale, herald off tanks and Last Stand, I think we should be a tick above a mini.

    Sustained Single DPS - A guard will out DPS a Captain even if he's not in OP. I would move Captains to the low Red area on the bar as we are truly the most pathetic damaging class if the healing classes are actually trying to do damage.
    Commander Cariance - Mostly Dead - Riddermark
    Sentry Wariance - ISMELLMANFLESH - Riddermark

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Once I get these additional ideas and rankings cemented, will have a key on the first page stating what each rating means.

    Overall the ratings are based not solely on #'s, but on the effectiveness of the skills available. No real math involved, just ranking them against each other. The dps is from countless threads over the years. Unfortunately it changes every patch when tact resistances are messed with or other stuff.

    For burst dps, I meant when you have to "burn it down" in battle, who can burst, likewise in pvmp, who can burst to finish the job. When you need a burst of dps, who can get it out. This involves the higher cooldown skills that aren't considered in the sustained dps.
    Initial dps could be a category but one that would have almost everyone except hunter and burg as mediocre with those two being in charge.

    Power issues for hunters I didn't consider knocking down their rating for, as in groups all trash content dies and even bosses (6man/etc) die without hunters going out of power unless there is drain involved. In raids, a lm should be present to help, along with their press onward/strength. I guess it is also in who you group/raid with, will bump up RK to be near it..

    Survivability is a big one, I don't know another term to clarify my intention.
    Of the two situations, pve, and pvmp, which class has the most "get away" skills that work? Since aggro resets in this game in most areas, surviving enough to tether mobs is sufficient for pve, but not pvmp. Also taking into account the negate damage type skills.. A captain can last stand, but usually it means their demise comes after it wears off.. both in raid and in pvmp.. group content usually you have time to escape or finish the danger, whereas a minstrel can FD, or powershield and be sustained longer.

    Modified some of the dps values to reflect the feedback, also bumped up rk cc, i forgot about how good the rock does cc =p.

    Of the additional categories, I think aggro management is a good one.. should burst be renamed to burn ? spike? not sure..

    With survivability did I clarify the intent and rating?

    I think based on the two posts I may add "self-reliance" or "soloability" or something that would show wardens, captains as better at surviving 2v1 or 3v1 on a pull than other classes.

    Dots in other games that you can effectively snare, dot and kite would mean more.. whereas lotro isn't very friendly to kite or fearkite, so dots should be part of dps, as the mob doesn't care what it has damage coming from. But since dots are tactical and combat is physical, one day there may be a change in mobs that would produce a physical resistant to attacks, but vulnerable to dots.. hopefully =)
    Last edited by Dyfrin; May 25 2011 at 10:57 AM.

  7. #7

    Re: The classes of lotro

    I agree with your comments about Mini's and Cappys survivability in the moors where LS almost always does equal delayed death, but I still think we are far more survivable in PvE.

    One more comment: I wouldn't put "Soloing is hard for a captain..." It can be time consuming, and we're not the most "fun" class to level (iff fun == ZOMGDamage), but a statement like that isn't going to motivate many to play the class. At the same time, for every solo quest grind, there is a 3man quest we can solo that the squishies might not be able to. In fact, I propose that we just state "Captains = Win".
    Commander Cariance - Mostly Dead - Riddermark
    Sentry Wariance - ISMELLMANFLESH - Riddermark

  8. #8

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Minis used to be the most survivable solo mob PvE class simply because they could outheal and wear down any but the hardest hitting elite-masters. Im not sure if that is the case anymore.

    I would give LMs a bump on AoE and sustained DPS. DPS traited LMs do pretty good damage now.

    I would drop minnie crowd control to red as they only have 3 skills and none of them work on everything.

    An RK throwing out frost skills can out AoE a hunter, who has only one significant AoE skill on a fairly long cooldown.

    I would also give RKs a bump on survivability. They can heal themselves and they can maintain high DPS while kiting.
    Seriously, every class probably deserves a yellow or better survivability in this game. Its not like other games where some classes just dont even try to go solo because they are so bad at it.

    Wardens have the strongest PvE solo survivability of any class. The reason they die so much in groups is that they are the bottom priority for the healers because they are almost useless in groups.
    Last edited by dhatcher1; May 25 2011 at 05:45 PM.
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/mandywun]Mandywun[/url], Minstrel 61 (SM/K Tailor) - [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/gwennethwun]Gwennethwun[/url], Guardian 65 (SM/K Metalsmith)
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/briannawun]Briannawun[/url], Burglar 65 (SM/K Jeweler) - [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/hollywun]Hollywun[/url], Hunter 65 (SM/K Woodworker)
    [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/ranzarawun]Ranzarawun[/url], Runekeeper 65 (SM/K Scholar) - [url=http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/ranzarawun]Catharinewun[/url], Captain 29 (K Weaponsmith)

    1 Frothing Road, Feginstath - Thorins Hall Homesteads, Elendilmir

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Love the layout.
    Ugdush, Black Orc of Mordor~~~Rank 7 Reaver
    Ungweliant of Nan Dungortheb~~~~~Rank 6 Weaver
    Utúlien Aurë! Utúlien Aurë!


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Let's see...I'm not going to mention every bit of praise you (clearly) deserve because others have done so already. A job well done.

    All the earned positives aside, here is what I personally think could potentially be altered;
    (PS I don't have a Lv65 Warden, so I won't comment on that class)


    Burst single damage: It's even lower than what you have there.
    AoE DPS: AoE DPS...? Oh yes, those two skills on a medium cooldown, which can't always be used and do about the same damage as throwing spring flowers at your enemies.
    Aggro control: Actually I would say that's something a Captain can be surprisingly good at. Not anywhere near the level of the 2 tanks or champions ofcourse, but certainly not too bad.


    Sustained DPS: I would rate it the highest sustained DPS, they don't have the DPS a burglar can give the FS, but they can keep going on their overdrive DPS forever and ever. Other classes in overdrive DPS will eventually burn out.


    Buffs: If you mean buffing others, it's not great with only 2 buff skills, but if you mean self-buffing they're quite good.


    Burst single damage: It's not as good as it used to be what with the HS and BH changes. Still good, but perhaps the chart is overrating it.

    (it's a shame there is no AoE burst damage category, that is where LM damage really shines. No other character of mine can do an 5k-10k AoE hit in a few seconds.)

    Debuffs: Fill that meter up, LM debuffs are second to none. I did find it odd you gave Burglar a full bar but not LM, while LM debuffs are superior 90% of the time.
    Healing: If it's healing others I agree, when it comes to self-healing I'd say they're second to mini and RK. With the difference that LMs can fully heal while fully DPSing.
    Buffs: Mmmm...I don't know, I think you're overrating LM buffs. They're not that great. Air-lore is a joke, even in blue traits. And the resistance buffs for Wounds and Diseases are almost useless compared to the cure itself. Ancient Wisdom and Wisdom of the Council buffs are nice, but those are self-buffs only.
    Survivability: Fill that up to near the top. Not many classes can solo a 200k mob without breaking a sweat. Or take on 8 normal mobs at a time. The only hindering factor for a LM's survivability is the fact that most skills have inductions. Which means that if you are fighting too many mobs, you have to learn to keep them away from you lest they interupt. Once you have learned that though, there's no stopping a LM from bulldozing the game.


    Burst single damage: Crank that up a bit, Minstrels can do some severe burst damage, often several 2k-3k hits after another.


    AoE DPS: I'd slide that bar down a bit. Theoretically Rune-keepers have somewhat decent (not great) AoE damage with Frost skills (+ 1 Fire and 1 Lightning skill), but the high power costs and/or long cooldowns make it difficult to sustain for any long fights.
    Plus the fact that just spamming Lightning/Fire skills on multiple targets usually delivers a better overall DPS.
    Aggro control: A little higher please, RKs do have several anti-threat skills.
    Healing: All the way up, depending on the raid boss, RK spot-healing is quite often better than minstrel healing.

    Sorry, I mentioned I wouldn't say anything as I don't have a Lv65 Warden yet, but low survivability? C'mon now, I've seen Wardens solo all 3-man instances AND pull 12+ normal mobs and walk away.
    It's right up there with LM and Burglar.
    Also, it has limited crowd control and VERY low burst damage.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jun 03 2011 at 02:01 AM.
    In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Thanks for the suggested changes, modified it again.
    Changed burst single dps to just burst.. and moved it under both sustained dps.

    Contemplating adding soloability maybe.. or something like ease of soloing..

    Survivability isn't soloability. Solo-ability is hard to determine differences in lotro. After SOA, there was a push to make every class soloable through the majority of the content. To say a warden solos better than a captain would make one think you can't solo as a captain, when you still can just differently.

    Survivability is the "oh oh" skills to get you out of bad situations.. people who don't like dying or were ill-prepared for that group of creeps.

    I may also add a "desired for group" but that is so ... subjective.. you can say most lff are tank/healer, but how to quantify the rest.. lm over burg? etc.

    I haven't played since minstrel changes and ROI, so if things have changed let me know =)
    Last edited by Dyfrin; Feb 15 2012 at 12:28 PM.

  12. #12

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyfrin View Post
    Survivability is the "oh oh" skills to get you out of bad situations.. people who don't like dying or were ill-prepared for that group of creeps.
    might want to up the champion's survivability bar then:
    . have 2 bubbles for 3.5k(ish) morale, one of which is like 5.5k in glory stance
    . a -20%(40 if traited) inc damage self-buff
    . time of need which now gives a very good amount of morale
    . exalted combatant which automatically gives us a nice heal when we drop too low(its 20% i think and only available when traited 3-deep in blues but a very nice buffer)
    . and just in case all of that doesn't save you let's not forget our old friend the 45 second +25% run speed sprint to get the heck out of there

    all in all i would say that, with the changes ROI brought us, a well-played champion is just about indestructible

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Re: The classes of lotro

    pushed it on par with guard now. That is good to hear.. =) more champs in moors i hope.

  14. #14

    Re: The classes of lotro

    I think the captain's aggro control needs to be increased to reflect the ROI updates. A captain traited for tanking is surprisingly effective. For lower number of mobs, it's easily on par with that of a champion (A captain's single target aggro is phenomenal). At larger numbers (>4) things get more interesting.

  15. #15

    Re: The classes of lotro

    I actually feel RK AoE dps should be higher, but burst dps should be lower. A fire-traited RK does very good dps on 3 targets with AoE fiery ridicule, (which can be spammed and will not be interrupted) and WoF on multiple targets. Add frost skills into that and it's far better than a hunter. I am baffled that a guard's AoE dps is shown as being better than an RKs. Even if the guard is traited OP, it is going to take the guard far longer to burn down multiple targets than a fire-traited RK.

    For burst dps, attunement messes with RKs burst potential. A fire-traited RK can do significant burst damage if improved essay of fire is up, but extremely poor when it is not (whether attuned or not), but a lightning RK who is not fully dps attuned has pretty weak burst and it is dependent on crits. Might do great...might be terrible.
    A Vote for Sapience is still a vote for progress!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Re: The classes of lotro

    updated again.. thanks for the input.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Updated to html5 and newest jquery should improve draw speed. Please tell me if any issues (browser/device)

  18. #18

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Nice site, its very accurate and it deserves some recognition from the Turbine team (its much better then the initial describtion you get when starting a new toon). Try send them an email about it! +rep

    Couple of small things:
    Burgs shouldn't have top survivability. For solo, wardens do better, and in raids they can be fairly squizy! Also think htrs should have top burst dmg, but slightly lower substained dmg. Wardens also have much more CC then you give them (the hole yellow line is build for CC and aggro - altought this might change with U6). I would also give LM full in debuff category (they are the nr1 debuffer of this game by a fair margin)

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Changed fonts off of various system installed to one import. <strong> needs work on font-weight.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Re: The classes of lotro

    Planning on adding creep classes.. looking for a good resolution class icon of each (grouping with UI increase just doesn't work)..
    Anyone seen those around?

    A request for game kit for websites over the years has not resulted in release.

  21. #21

    Re: The classes of lotro

    I'm sorry, but i take offense at the lm AOE rating, needs to be higher, we are second only to champs after all

    also remember there are trait lines to think about, i don't mean to sound all criticism and i think what you have done is a great thing for newer players
    lore-masters are like wolves, alone we're pretty great but in a pack...

  22. #22

    Re: The classes of lotro

    I am just going to comment on the warden:

    1) We are not the "second best tank." Guards are not the "best tank." They are both tanks, and do their jobs equally well, just in a different fashion.

    2) Put Survivability to nine.

    3) Bring up self-healing

    4) Aggro should be 10

    5) AoE DPS should be 3

    6) Add 2 to Single Target DPS

    7) Subtract 1 from burst DPS

    My $0.02
    Other toons (Elendilmir): Lorespark 100 Man LM, Sparkness 85 Dwarf RK, and Leadspark 60 Man Captain.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Updated, thanks for the input, reworded the warden (a long time ago, just didn't reply).
    Last edited by Dyfrin; Nov 10 2015 at 09:37 AM.

  24. #24
    Some thoughts on some of the ratings

    Burglar survivability is rated a bit high, in my opinion. While they have incredibly potent melee/ranged survival skills, they have zero survivability against tactical damage. HIPs is of course a nice survival skill, but comparatively to something like a Warden/Guardian, it's not even close. Maybe knock it down a notch?

    Guardian survivability, healing, and AoE DPS all need bumps up, especially the healing.

    Loremaster Sustained Single-Target DPS needs to be taken a notch down- 4k DPS is a relatively high number for a balanced geared LM, 90% of classes ban beat that. Healing and survivability needs boosts up.

    Minstrel Aoe and Single target DPS need bumps up.

    RK Single Target DPS needs a bump up, as does its survivability.

    Warden AOE DPS, Single Target DPS, Self Healing, and Survivability all need bumps up.

    Cool idea, thanks for bumping it!

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Updated it based on that feedback added beorning. Let me know what you all think.


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