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Thread: Will....

  1. #51
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    I'll prove it any time. Come to my place and you'll see. I'll log into every single one. We'll even go have a beer or something afterwards, if you want. I learned long ago not to broadcast my toons publicly, because people get a little overexcited and develop vendettas based on differences of opinions and debates they have on forums.
    Uh huh, Uh huh. or you can SS your character screen.
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  2. #52

    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    This is the flaw in your argument. You consider renown gain to be the deciding factor in success on Freepside, when in truth Renown is absolutely worthless to Freepside, whereas any Infamy gain to Creepside is monumentally important. Just because a Freep toon gains more renown does not mean they won the battle.
    Not sure how that is a flaw in argument. If you consider living to be the side that wins, it's really kinda a moot point. The reason freeps typically get more renown in a fight is because creepside has to use rezzes <--taking a rez or retreating is the same thing as being 'dead' at the end of the fight. Considering creeps achieve the state to where they must retreat/accept a rez more times then freeps during raid vs raid, i'd call that a freep win even if they wipe.

    What is your definition of winning a battle in raid vs raid terms? You are willing to say others opinions are flawed, it only makes sense for you to give your opinion in return.

  3. #53
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    My burglar doesn't have Heartseeker or Epic conclusion. Last I checked, the only classes that have those skills are Hunters and Runekeepers respectively. Last I checked, those classes, on Freepside, need to be leveled up to acquire those skills. With the current game, I can make any Creep class I want in a matter of seconds, and bring the PvP-centric skills they start with into a battle to assist my team. On Freepside, I cannot. Therefore, a skill that is available immediately to my team is MUCH higher quality than a skill that is not available for at least the time it takes to level up a Freep to 40+ (depending on the skill you wish to debate). There isn't even a debate. Skills that are usable > skills that aren't.

    The rest of your posts debate follows the same rule.
    Hate to break it to ya spiffy, but we don't start out with all of our skills. In fact, the amount of skills we start out with is almost the same, if not equal, to the amount a freep starts out with at level one. You can get a freep to 65 in two weeks. It takes months if not years to get a creep all of its skills.

    Your average hunter can start out at level one, and have heartseeker before a BA gets VT. This argument is invalid.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Will....

    I have a r15 creep on every server. Come to my house and I'll log them in to prove it. We'll make popcorn, watch a movie, and snuggle afterwards.

  5. #55
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Average creep morale at the end of SoA (lv50) was ~4.5k, so you had 2.7k moral at lv60? LOLz
    I had 6k morale, unbuffed, before MoM hit. After, I had 4k with the same corruptions. Oooooh, sorry, 35% instead of 40%. My bad.
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  6. #56

    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wargfoot View Post
    If you are going to cite multiple rank 10+ Creeps across several servers as proof of your experience it's fair for people to ask you to back that up. While you may have good reasons to not share those names everyone here has good reason to assume you're blowing smoke - not the least of which is that anyone who has ever ranked a Creep to 10 (without farming) would realize it's just as much work as a fully geared Freep.

    That said, my main is Wargfoot on Firefoot and I come here and stick my paw in people's eyes all of the time. Citing fear of ingame retribution seems a bit thin since Freeps will roll you any chance they get, regardless of posting history. I certainly feel no "heat" in game even though I openly taunt the most powerful Freep kinships on my server - turns out, they would have killed me any ways.

    Sorry, but you don't pass the sniff test.
    I don't even think you have a level 65 Freep and I doubt you even play this game.
    Good for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiding View Post
    Uh huh, Uh huh. or you can SS your character screen.
    Screenshots can be doctored, and have been many times in the past. I wouldn't trust SS's, and neither should you.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    Not sure how that is a flaw in argument. If you consider living to be the side that wins, it's really kinda a moot point. The reason freeps typically get more renown in a fight is because creepside has to use rezzes <--taking a rez or retreating is the same thing as being 'dead' at the end of the fight. Considering creeps achieve the state to where they must retreat/accept a rez more times then freeps during raid vs raid, i'd call that a freep win even if they wipe.

    What is your definition of winning a battle in raid vs raid terms? You are willing to say others opinions are flawed, it only makes sense for you to give your opinion in return.
    The last team standing, through the combat, is my definition (and the standard definition) of winning - just as it is in PvE. I doubt many people consider it a win when they wipe on a PvE boss fight that you already know everything about. Granted there are some exceptions to the rule that have personal goals, or find success in gaining renown, but those are not the standard definitions of wins.

    At the end of a boxing match, people don't look at the boxer who knocked the other person down the most, they look at the person who's still standing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minelavaa View Post
    Hate to break it to ya spiffy, but we don't start out with all of our skills.
    Nobody said you did.

    You can get a freep to 65 in two weeks. It takes months if not years to get a creep all of its skills.
    You can get a Freep to 65 in 2 weeks. You can get a Creep to r15 in 2 weeks. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't be done.

    Your average hunter can start out at level one, and have heartseeker before a BA gets VT. This argument is invalid.
    Neither helps their side immediately, but I guarantee the BA helps his team a lot sooner than that level 1 Hunter does.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillGore81 View Post
    I have a r15 creep on every server. Come to my house and I'll log them in to prove it. We'll make popcorn, watch a movie, and snuggle afterwards.
    You must be proud! However, I couldn't care less.

    The funny part of this is that I could provide proof of all of what they people are asking, and yet they still wouldn't change their biased and inaccurate views on PvMP.
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  7. #57
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    Re: Will....

    Slither, don't get me wrong, I don't have any problems with you and don't want any, I actually kind of like the cuddly and huggable side of you!

    You're a smart player, know the mechanics pretty well, so I have to wonder, do you really believe the statements you have made in this rather silly thread? Because when I read it I was actually chuckling since I do have a sense of humor.

    Also, freeps may have to spend more time to get "Raid ready," but a fresh level 65 freep with quest reward gear and rank 3 and below virtues would probably destroy any rank 0-3 creep of most any class in a 1v1 situation if they have even the slightest clue.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    Good for you!


    Screenshots can be doctored, and have been many times in the past. I wouldn't trust SS's, and neither should you.


    The last team standing, through the combat, is my definition (and the standard definition) of winning - just as it is in PvE. I doubt many people consider it a win when they wipe on a PvE boss fight that you already know everything about. Granted there are some exceptions to the rule that have personal goals, or find success in gaining renown, but those are not the standard definitions of wins.

    At the end of a boxing match, people don't look at the boxer who knocked the other person down the most, they look at the person who's still standing.


    Nobody said you did.


    You can get a Freep to 65 in 2 weeks. You can get a Creep to r15 in 2 weeks. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't be done.


    Neither helps their side immediately, but I guarantee the BA helps his team a lot sooner than that level 1 Hunter does.


    You must be proud! However, I couldn't care less.

    The funny part of this is that I could provide proof of all of what they people are asking, and yet they still wouldn't change their biased and inaccurate views on PvMP.
    I'm asking for an SS cause I doubt you have the ability. Fraps it then.

    If you kill 30 creeps (counting each rez as a new person) to 20 freeps, the freeps come out ahead, even if they wipe and will stay to fight.

    Get a creep to R15 in two weeks. even farming, you can't. Your infamy gain per day is impossible. The very very very remote possibility doesn't determine whether or not something can be achieved. Only that given infintesimal attempts, a goal MAY be achieved.

    Sure the BA helps sooner, the BA also dies sooner and more often.

    Technically, if you do not provide proof, no one will see any reason to change. If you can prove without a doubt that you have multiple rank 10 creeps, you will have gained credibility and your argument will have gained ground. Until then, keep saying that it's unfair on freepside. See how fun it is when everyone leaves for SWTOR
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  9. #59

    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiding View Post
    I'm asking for an SS cause I doubt you have the ability. Fraps it then.
    And I'm asking you to drop it because it's not worth posting one. If you continue, i will report you for harassment.

    If you kill 30 creeps (counting each rez as a new person) to 20 freeps, the freeps come out ahead, even if they wipe and will stay to fight.
    How do you figure the freeps come out ahead?

    Get a creep to R15 in two weeks. even farming, you can't. Your infamy gain per day is impossible. The very very very remote possibility doesn't determine whether or not something can be achieved. Only that given infintesimal attempts, a goal MAY be achieved.
    It can absolutely be accomplished.

    Sure the BA helps sooner, the BA also dies sooner and more often.
    What does dying sooner have to do with the debate? The BA provided assistance in a given fight, even if it be a meatshield to have Freeps focus their fire away from a skilled toon, whereas the level 1 Freep was incapable.

    Technically, if you do not provide proof, no one will see any reason to change. If you can prove without a doubt that you have multiple rank 10 creeps, you will have gained credibility and your argument will have gained ground. Until then, keep saying that it's unfair on freepside. See how fun it is when everyone leaves for SWTOR
    Lets be realistic. Regardless if I provide proof or not, views will not be changed, credibility will not change, etc. I don't respect a r15 players view on PvMP just because he's r15. I respect a players view on PvMP if it's accurate, it's repeatable, and it fits the standard of what anyone can expect from their PvMP experience -- much like how I view PvMP. When discussing and resolving the real issues in PvMP, I don't like to include the exceptions to the rule. If people bring exceptions up, I bring up an exception to counter their argument, but ultimately we've both just wasted our breath because it's not a real, repeatable, accurate, standard issue for PvMP.

    It's like players who try to use 1v1's as accurate comparisons for PvMP, when 99% of PvMP action is not 1v1's. It's like players who bring up LM's vs any Creep class when comparing the CC available to both sides, when LM's only make up 1/9th of the class choices for Freepside, and an LM is not always available on Freepside, whereas any class is available on Creepside. Exceptions just create a wasted discussion. Stop debating exceptions and maybe we can see each others side.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    You can get a Freep to 65 in 2 weeks. You can get a Creep to r15 in 2 weeks. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't be done.
    No. It is physically not possible to get a creep to rank 15 in two weeks. From 14 to 15 alone is over a million infamy.
    For that rank alone, you would have to get over 6,500 kills that gave you 150 infamy a piece. 10,000 if each gave you 100, which is closer to what you would be getting on average. I've been doing pvmp for about 10 hours a day for the last week and a half with a raid, and I've only managed 2,500 on my spider.

    Here's a better example. Rank 0 to 15 requires 3,708,500 infamy. If you solo'd it the whole way, and got 120 infamy for every single kill, you would need to kill 30,833 freeps in the span of two weeks.

    It is not physically possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    Neither helps their side immediately, but I guarantee the BA helps his team a lot sooner than that level 1 Hunter does.
    See, now the argument wasn't who helped the team first. The argument was who had the better skills, and who got their skills first. Freeps have the better skills, and they get their skills first.

    Here's the argument that you keep purposely straying away from;

    Between freeps and creeps, which one will have all of their skills first? My first response answers that question quite nicely.
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  11. #61
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    Re: Will....

    You "win" the fight based on how you feel. I personally don't care if everyone in my group is dead at the end and all the creeps are standing. If we got more kills I would consider it a "win"...or at least a tie..

    A lot of people are left upset if they are dead at the end even if they got more kills. They feel to "win" you wipe the other side....

    If you consider last man standing the "win" then you should also consider using rezzes to "win" fair. Creep classes using skills to accomplish the goal of wiping freeps...

    Now if you wanted to farm to r15 in 2 weeks I did some quick math. ASSUME that you can somehow get 100 points a minute (1 kill). When killing an opponent over and over again they lose rating and are worth less. In addition if you kill the same person in a certain amount of time (I dont know the exacts) it drastically cuts your point gain.

    So say that is happening through all odds...100 a minute. So 100 a minute....6000 an hour. Playing 24 hours that is 144,000 a day. So in one week you would gain 1,008,000. So in 2 weeks you would gain 2,016,000. It takes 3,708,500 to get r15. So it would take well over 3 weeks....Now this was only about 1min of work to get that...I'm sure if someone takes the time they could figure it would take much longer to hit r15....

    Of course you can always come back with "20 different people were being farmed"...

    well I was posting someone else basically said what I was saying just a lot quicker...
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  12. #62

    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    How do you figure the freeps come out ahead?
    In the end, the freeps (or creeps) simply have to retreat and both sides are still standing in the end. With both sides ultimately still standing and freeps getting more kills during the encounter, the freeps come out ahead.

  13. #63

    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    In the end, the freeps (or creeps) simply have to retreat and both sides are still standing in the end. With both sides ultimately still standing and freeps getting more kills during the encounter, the freeps come out ahead.
    Standing in a specific location they are fighting for. Freeps die, freeps lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minelavaa View Post
    No. It is physically not possible to get a creep to rank 15 in two weeks. From 14 to 15 alone is over a million infamy.
    For that rank alone, you would have to get over 6,500 kills that gave you 150 infamy a piece. 10,000 if each gave you 100, which is closer to what you would be getting on average. I've been doing pvmp for about 10 hours a day for the last week and a half with a raid, and I've only managed 2,500 on my spider.

    Here's a better example. Rank 0 to 15 requires 3,708,500 infamy. If you solo'd it the whole way, and got 120 infamy for every single kill, you would need to kill 30,833 freeps in the span of two weeks.

    It is not physically possible.
    Absolutely possible, if you had a steady flow of opponents.

    See, now the argument wasn't who helped the team first. The argument was who had the better skills, and who got their skills first. Freeps have the better skills, and they get their skills first.
    Wrong. Skills that you can't use in the environment you want to use them in are not better skills than skills that you can use in the environment you want to use them in.

    Here's the argument that you keep purposely straying away from;

    Between freeps and creeps, which one will have all of their skills first? My first response answers that question quite nicely.
    Please explain how this matters, and if it is relevant to PvMP, then I will answer it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyn View Post
    You "win" the fight based on how you feel. I personally don't care if everyone in my group is dead at the end and all the creeps are standing. If we got more kills I would consider it a "win"...or at least a tie..
    In your opinion....

    A lot of people are left upset if they are dead at the end even if they got more kills. They feel to "win" you wipe the other side....
    The majority of people. This is the accepted standard.

    If you consider last man standing the "win" then you should also consider using rezzes to "win" fair. Creep classes using skills to accomplish the goal of wiping freeps...
    I've never said that it wasn't fair, or that they shouldn't use these skills. They have been given to the Creeps, so I expect them to use those skills, just as I expect Freeps to do the same. That said, it doesn't mean the skills they have been given are or aren't imbalanced.

    And yes, achieving r15 in 2 weeks is absolutely possible, if a player had the means to accomplish it; just as a player must have a specific set of means to achieve level 65 + perfect build on Freepside within 2 weeks.
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  14. #64
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    And yes, achieving r15 in 2 weeks is absolutely possible, if a player had the means to accomplish it...
    Realistically, no it's not.

    I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that takes you remotely serious after this claim. I think I finally found a winner for an absolutely absurd quote to put in my signature.

  15. #65

    Re: Will....

    Will....

    ..the people continuing to argue with the OP eventually realize they'd have an easier time teaching quantum mechanics to their dog.
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  16. #66

    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    Standing in a specific location they are fighting for. Freeps die, freeps lose.
    Opinion.

    Freeps fight creeps in open field because they are fighting for that location? I disagree.

    Creeps die, creeps lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by mosphet99 View Post
    Will....

    ..the people continuing to argue with the OP eventually realize they'd have an easier time letting a dog teach them quantum mechanics
    I like this version better.

  17. #67
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    My burglar doesn't have Heartseeker or Epic conclusion. Last I checked, the only classes that have those skills are Hunters and Runekeepers respectively. Last I checked, those classes, on Freepside, need to be leveled up to acquire those skills. With the current game, I can make any Creep class I want in a matter of seconds, and bring the PvP-centric skills they start with into a battle to assist my team. On Freepside, I cannot. Therefore, a skill that is available immediately to my team is MUCH higher quality than a skill that is not available for at least the time it takes to level up a Freep to 40+ (depending on the skill you wish to debate). There isn't even a debate. Skills that are usable > skills that aren't.

    The rest of your posts debate follows the same rule.


    Lol, it seems you have developed an opinion of me based on hearsay rather than getting to know me and learn the way I play, the style I play, etc. I don't star farm. I don't die very often. I don't make biased arguments to support classes I play, otherwise I would be asking for buffs to Creeps. PvP has changed - for the worse, over time, because turbine keeps changing more things than they fix.


    You obviously have not been out to the 'moors recently. Time and time again, on multiple servers, fights with even numbers favor Creeps. Creeps stand tall at the end, nearly 90% of the time. Anyone with half a brain can see this happen.


    This is the flaw in your argument. You consider renown gain to be the deciding factor in success on Freepside, when in truth Renown is absolutely worthless to Freepside, whereas any Infamy gain to Creepside is monumentally important. Just because a Freep toon gains more renown does not mean they won the battle.


    I would implore you to play PvMP more than the 5 seconds it took you to create your toon, and develop an opinion on it. I have multiple Creeps and Freeps above r10, on various servers, so I ask you to refrain from questioning my experience in PvMP.
    Oh i'm sorry, where did i say that renown is the only deciding factor in success?
    So to speak, more renown = more kills. If you are trying to say that raking out with more kills on a % scale does not mean success, then you just gave me a laugh.
    Even when creeps stand nice and tall at the end of every fight like you say they almost always do on nimrodel, freeps should have gotten more kills. Thats the way it works, and thats what the leader-boards say happens.

    If you haven't noticed, most of my toons are freeps, i only have three creeps above rank 5, yet i have been slugging around on them enough to know what goes on. In fact, i have 7/9 classes, 2 of which are not above rank 5 (almost rank 6). So don't tell me i am biased towards creeps because i play them more.

    Lol! I have more XP points then u, i am more uba!
    Honestly, if you really had any experience worth anything, this thread wouldn't exist. That's fact.
    You have a rank 9 burg Coldfellz, a rank 8 champ Slither and a rank 6 minstrel flash.
    Please tell us names of any more of your rank10-15 toons that are across all servers names, so we can look them up on the leaderboards, and then post their wartabs to prove you didn't farm them if they happen to exist at all, otherwise none of us will be convinced any of them exist.

    And you can point the finger back all you want, but until you provide suitable evidence for any of what you post on the forums, you will have convinced nobody.

    In straight open field battles Freeps with coordination > creeps with coordination, everytime.

    Heck, worgnakh had a better sense than you when he played his freep and was biased as hell. He was actually able to give it some humour. He played a creep to more than equivalent rank of his freep(s). He has seen both points of view and knows how it actually works, imo he just poked at people for fun after that.

    I think most of us are only posting back to you just in case we are able to get more laughs from you. My advice, don't waste your time, nobody is going to be convinced any time soon.

  18. #68
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    I like this version better.
    +rep to that guy, he obviously knows something worth sharing.

  19. #69
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by KillGore81 View Post
    Realistically, no it's not.

    I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that takes you remotely serious after this claim. I think I finally found a winner for an absolutely absurd quote to put in my signature.
    Considering there is currently no means to get to rank 15 in a year, i think you also hit a winner.

    EDIT: Was he seriously comparing getting a freep to 65 with the korean grind of getting rank 15?
    Last edited by Untg99; May 12 2011 at 03:06 AM.

  20. #70
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by mosphet99 View Post
    Will....

    ..the people continuing to argue with the OP eventually realize they'd have an easier time teaching quantum mechanics to their dog.
    ... You read my mind from my post about getting R15 in 2 weeks. I was gonna post something like it'd be easier to detect tachyon particles via a helium-3 compound (not at all realistic) than get 15...
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  21. #71
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Please tell us names of any more of your rank10-15 toons that are across all servers names, so we can look them up on the leaderboards, and then post their wartabs to prove you didn't farm them if they happen to exist at all, otherwise none of us will be convinced any of them exist.

    And you can point the finger back all you want, but until you provide suitable evidence for any of what you post on the forums, you will have convinced nobody.
    ^this. I said it before. Provide proof, other wise you're hot air. And this is not harrassment, it's calling out someone claiming stories and refusing to provide evidence. I'll post my war tabs if you want. and all my creeps names from 3 accounts. I don't have access to two of them any more due to hacking and disputed claims but I can cite you to them and people that have known me over multiple accounts.

    P.S. Hey con! tis faulks/hidingintheback of old acclaim/hatred
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  22. #72
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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by mosphet99 View Post
    Will....

    ..the people continuing to argue with the OP eventually realize they'd have an easier time teaching quantum mechanics to their dog.
    I was always semi sure that olagaton was just trolling to get a rise out of people. The 'r15 in two weeks' thing just kind of sealed the deal. No one in their right mind would say that and believe it.

    Bravo olagaton, the thread topic grew to 5 pages, and you may have added another 3 with that one.

    Or we could all just let it die here.

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    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    Absolutely possible, if you had a steady flow of opponents.
    If you got 2 kills per minute, it would take 11 days without sleep. That is not realistically possible. Oh, and you'd have to win every single fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    Wrong. Skills that you can't use in the environment you want to use them in are not better skills than skills that you can use in the environment you want to use them in.
    Was I referring to skills that have no relevance in a PvMP environment? No, I was not.


    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    Please explain how this matters, and if it is relevant to PvMP, then I will answer it.
    I have to explain to you how skills are relevant in PvMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    And yes, achieving r15 in 2 weeks is absolutely possible, if a player had the means to accomplish it; just as a player must have a specific set of means to achieve level 65 + perfect build on Freepside within 2 weeks.
    And no, it is not absolutely possible regardless of the means. You don't have to have the perfect build for freepside. You just have to have 6 hours of spare time each day.

    Like I said before, you would have to stay awake for 11 days without sleep to accomplish it. Eleven days without sleep happens to be the scientifically documented world record. However, I'll humor you. Since you seem to think it's possible, go ahead and share with the class the 'means' it would require to achieve rank 15 in two weeks. These means have to be somewhat practical, and not driven by chance(I.E. Running across 30,000 afk freeps; or multi-boxing and assuming that no creeps will interfere).
    Last edited by Minelavaa; May 12 2011 at 04:35 AM.
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  24. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,395

    Re: Will....

    I've mentioned this before in other threads, but for all of you wasting your time arguing with Slither, you have to understand something.

    Assuming he's NOT a troll (a dubious assumption), every one of his arguments is specifically constructed in a worst-case vs. best-case manner. I.e., all freeps in the moors are undergeared level 40s fighting against people with multiple R15 creeps. As long as he's pulling scenarios out of the imaginary world in his head, you'll never win. So, why bother?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020100000d43a5/signature.png]Muzfuz[/charsig]
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  25. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,891

    Re: Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by AroJay View Post
    I've mentioned this before in other threads, but for all of you wasting your time arguing with Slither, you have to understand something.

    Assuming he's NOT a troll (a dubious assumption), every one of his arguments is specifically constructed in a worst-case vs. best-case manner. I.e., all freeps in the moors are undergeared level 40s fighting against people with multiple R15 creeps. As long as he's pulling scenarios out of the imaginary world in his head, you'll never win. So, why bother?
    Why thats simple, so we can amuse ourselves!

 

 
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