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  1. #26
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Maldrake View Post
    The downside is that Turbine takes forever to make any such changes and often won't even consider them. This next update they have mentioned including changes to the housing system. Although I haven't heard anything specific yet about them. It took years to get them to make any changes to the clunky housing system ... sigh ...
    I have a feeling Turbine is seriously understaffed. Hopefully with the increased revenue from F2P, they can hire a few more bodies and set them on specific large-scale tasks, such as housing and kinship revamps.

  2. #27
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyjarl View Post
    Again they should hire the Developer of the Warhammer Online guild system, because that is where he stole this idea from whole sale.
    Stop your whining. It is not at all similar.

  3. #28
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianDavion View Post
    I suppose though that turbine'd be able to do a slightly better set up as I suspect their office copy boy has a better head for MMO design then Funcom
    Hey! Anarchy Online was a lot of fun ... up until they decided to add fantasy to the sci-fi theme with the Shadowlands expansion.

  4. #29
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Instead of BANNERS, rather an Kinship trait page on our character TRAITS window would be better.

    You can trait up to TWO traits that the Kinship has earned (from a wide variety, via deeds, quests, etc.) Perhaps the Kinship traits also have ranks (ala Virtues traits).

    So basically we'd have Virtue traits, Class traits, Race traits, Legendary traits, and Kinship traits. The Kinship traits are the available pool of traits that the kinship has earned, and you can choose to slot two of them.
    Last edited by Chiot; Mar 11 2011 at 07:56 AM.

  5. #30

    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    definitely should do this, its been way too long since they've expanded on kinship stuff, i more then anything would like the diversity of ranks with the ability to edit the permissions of each group. Also like the kin quests, the log tracking whats taken out of the kin chests, the bank being linked to kin house upkeep, the rewards for kin quests.

    Very nice job, and presentation should be considered by turbine as template for their revamp on kinships.

    And what someone else said what would make it better is a implementation of alliances, I know i would love that move of a global chat for alliances, or a roster at least of the kins telling whose online.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d000000009cef/signature.png]Unknown[/charsig]

  6. #31
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiot View Post
    Instead of BANNERS, rather an Kinship trait page on our character TRAITS window would be better.

    You can trait up to TWO traits that the Kinship has earned (from a wide variety, via deeds, quests, etc.) Perhaps the Kinship traits also have ranks (ala Virtues traits).

    So basically we'd have Virtue traits, Class traits, Race traits, Legendary traits, and Kinship traits. The Kinship traits are the available pool of traits that the kinship has earned, and you can choose to slot two of them.
    That is a better implementation of the banner thing.

    One thing i would like to add. Instead of battle advantages, the kinship traits should focus on social or financial aspect of lotro. Like lower cost on travel or vendor discounts in selected zones in which you have some reputation.
    Razor // Lusitanius // Crickhollow ~ Portuguese Kinship //

  7. #32

    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    It is beautiful. Good job.

    The only problem I see is that the buffs are Over Powered. Turbine will balance content especially group content on the assumption that every one in the instance has the highest Kin Buffs. You are not in kin that fully ranked up in the Buff area. You can not do the content.

    Essentially all players will be need to join very large kins to get the benefits. It will wipe out all the smaller kins on the Servers. You will get back to the monster kins like the one I belonged to in Asheron's Call that had over 10,000 members. I was a second tier officer with about 600 people to keep track off. There were perhaps 2,000 under my patron who was directly under the Monarch.

    Solo players would be left out completely. Depending on the how buffs are applied. All content in the game may be upped in difficulty on the assumption everybody has these buffs. It was the raiders in Moria with Hope gear rolling all none raid content including landscape that resulted in the creation of Gloom and Radiance. Removal of Hope from the instance gear. Turbine felt constant +5 Hope was way OP.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  8. #33

    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Whilst I agree with most of the OP's objectives, I would be against any "playing" advantage of being in a Kin.
    Some people are in RL "loners" and probably play a game such as this very happily solo.
    The reason I am, in effect not in a Kin is becauseI have two of my own, with me the only member. I have these kins because there is so much gold in the game the cost and maintenance is negligeable compared to my income, I can cover the rent of both in maybe an hours play, and I just love the fluff and wanted the big houses!!!
    I was in a great Kin, and it was their well furnished hall made me want one, so I left and formed my own purely to get the Kin Hall !!

  9. #34

    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    I agree with the concerns about the buffs. Other than that I have only two words to say:

    YES PLEASE
    Pretending that something didn't happen, doesn't make it so.

  10. #35
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    The banners were just an example of what could be done to offer reward for kin questing. This of course could be anything. With regards to the buffs being over-powered, I did consider this, however I was under the assumption that if this update ever happened it wouldn't be until isengard in which case the level cap would be higher anyway.
    The idea of being able to use kin rewards as personal traits would work too, however I think which ever idea some will be happy whilst others won't. The reason I would prefer a benefit item for grouping is because I imagine the quests needed to get these items would encourage grouping. So in this respect your kin works as a group to do the quests and would get group perks for it.

    I also appreciate that some kins will be smaller and more casual, in this case banners may not be the best reward. Perhaps personal traits offering buffs like run speed, map CD, item xp etc, may be more preferred.

    The solution could then be that banners and traits are offered as reward? The banners can deal with the combat side of rewards, while the personal trait can deal with the more personal fun rewards. Either way your kin would have to earn medallions to rank up those traits/banners. Just casual kins could chose a quest that can be completed through solo play, such as killing x amount of something.. A quest that wouldn't need any specific work to achieve other than standard play.
    Galuhad | Narvelan
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  11. #36

    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Very nicely done, Your system looks great as far as revamping kinships go, im dying for the allowance of player-made titles and more ranks within kin ranks.

  12. #37
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Very solid, bravo!

    You forgot to sprinkle some of the “buy now” buttons over the interface, tsk tsk tsk.

    Additional thoughts:

    Timezone info/conversion in the member-rooster.


    How about rewards like options to port kin-members, use would be more for spontaneous help somewhere out in the wildernis or RP events outside regular traffic routes.

    Other rewards could be also more in terms of cosmetic clothing, special emotes (different bow/salute for example that could accommodate the “spirit” of the kin).

    Could even be a special mount, not obtainable otherwise?

    Perhaps instead of the blessings/banner more a kin-item which usage is comparable to a fellowship maneuver, maybe more powerful but high cd so that it’s only usable once in a run or even per day? Only a few different types available and unique – could lead to problems though if kins are too big and have more than one run at the same time.
    [CENTER][FONT=Arial][B]Rouven[/B]* – official representative** of the silent[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]U[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial] majority[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]U[FONT=Wingdings]U[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial] for 130 years[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]¸[/FONT][/FONT][/CENTER]

    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c214000000044504/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][SIZE=1][URL="http://my.lotro.com/user-1069763/2011/05/18/the-footnote/"]Important [I]footnotes[/I] to the above can be found here.[/URL][/SIZE][/CENTER]

  13. #38

    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Galuhad View Post
    The banners were just an example of what could be done to offer reward for kin questing. This of course could be anything. With regards to the buffs being over-powered, I did consider this, however I was under the assumption that if this update ever happened it wouldn't be until isengard in which case the level cap would be higher anyway.
    I would not waste any effort on trying to flesh out the rewards. Turbine is more than capable of dealing with the reward side in a manner that fits properly into the rest of the game systems. Plus not make small kins and loners left behind due to not having access to the game play advantages.

    Based on posts that have been pruned Turbine seems to use the following design. For each character level - they decide the maximum total stat points you can get. Our characters are not allowed to get over that maximum.

    The next thing they do is balance the differences based on acquisition methods. You will not see a massive difference between quest, crafted and instance gear as far stats are concerned when comparing gear for the same level character. AL will differ based on light, medium and heavy.

    Many things are ratings. They are capped to make sure no one can get over the character limit. Which might be 5%. When I put my Relentless Attack Buff on a level 10 - they do not the full rating benefit like a peer level 65 will.

    For many buffs, they do not want people getting permanent buffs. It is temporary like Hope Tokens. On good as long as you are grouped with a Captain or close enough to the class member to be under the buff aura.

    This game is about a lot of very small benefits. There are very few ways to get big benefits. Captains have one of the few big benefits. They can plunk down a Banner of War, 10% mark, Oathbreakers and boost the damage output of their shield buddy. One group member can go RAAAWWWWR for a few seconds. The rest of the group gets a RAWR. Then it dies down to a plain Rawr.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  14. #39
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyjarl View Post
    There is no possible way you could accidentally copy it as much as you have. And there are no other games that have all that you copied from Warhammer Online for you to have collected it from other games.

    Again, shame on you, you should give proper credit to the source of the information you have blatantly copied.
    Ok, so let's compare then.. Taking info from the website you linked earlier:
    http://www.warherald.com/warherald/N...cle.war?id=167

    The Kinship Interface I proposed..



    The Interface from that website above..






    (right away the interfaces are completely different)


    So Warhammer has -
    Profile showing message of the day, guild news, and by the looks of it someone's email address..
    Lotro already uses message of the day so I suppose you should harass Turbine for stealing that idea themselves..
    Guild news would be similar to the log I put in to the UI, though this is nothing new. People on these forums have been asking for a log for years, ever since people could use kin housing as a way to store items. From what I understand, other MMOs use a log system too for recording kin data (WoW for example).. I added to the log ideas that I thought would be useful, given that I have been leader of the same kin for 2.5 years, I have my own ideas of the information I would like to see.. Undoubtedly some of these will be the same as those logs in other MMOs, there's only so much information you can put into them after all.

    Calendar showing raid info and sign-ups.. Oops seems I forgot this one, how silly of me.

    Roster listing the kin members. I wonder if Warhammer own's exclusive rights to the usage of the word Roster.. I admit, the idea came to me from EQDKPs use of the word roster for listing all the members.. ahh, I'm so bad.

    "The Standard window is where the Guild’s standard is displayed. Standards are granted as a guild reward and are two handed items that are usable by Standard Bearer’s on the battlefield to grant bonuses to the party (more on Standards below under Guild Standards). From this tab, Guild’s can view their Standard, Edit their Heraldry, set the Standard post, and modify Tactics for the Standard. The Heraldry Editor is accessed from this window,

    The Edit Heraldry display allows guilds to choose a unique Heraldry configuration that is displayed on their Guild Standard. Heraldry reservation costs a fee and is granted as a guild reward, though the display of the Heraldry on the Standard is unlocked gradually through the guild rank progression. Heraldry customization options include a shape, base color, pattern, pattern color, emblem, and emblem color (there are 1-10 color variations per emblem)." Source

    Ok this one I will cut you a little slack, I can see why you would think I'm copying them.. Though being an art graduate I personally quite like the idea of people able to customise the banners, if I had known this before I probably would have included something similar.

    However, I do NOT play Warhammer and I never have.. what I do play is Lotro.. One of my main characters is a level 65 Captain.. Banners.. Captains... Banners... hmmm I think there may be something there.

    Truth is, banners in Lotro is nothing new. Captain's aside, Vol 2 has plenty of chapter instances that involve banners, and being able to click on them to change the type of buff it gives you. I don't think any other group reward to be used in a group could be quite as obvious.

    I have no idea what buffs the standards in Warhammer give, but given that there's only so many possibilities that will buff a group during play I'd imagine there to be some similarities.

    The Reward window I also have no idea about as there's no image. I suppose this is where they chose the standard they want?

    I did notice however that WoW also has a similar system http://www.wowwiki.com/Guild_advancement so perhaps Warhammer actually stole the idea from them?

    One thing in the UI I suggested I couldn't see in the one from your post is the quest tracker.. Given that the majority of any MMO progression is based around questing of some sort this seems like a natural choice.

    Something else I foolishly missed.. an Alliance tab. Says on that website that you can link up kins into a shared alliance interface. Again, something that would be really neat here and has been asked for in the past. Undoubtedly I would have put it in had I ever played Warhammer and known that such a thing could exist.

    Kin Bank, does Warhammer have one of these cause I can't see it in those images..

    Finally, the Admin section, or Ranks as I called it.
    Both of these are the same.. being able to edit kin ranks to change permissions.. This is not unique to Warhammer though. It's also something that has been asked for by players here, myself included.. I would love to have more ranks in the kinship system and be able to change permissions for what each rank can do, I don't need to play another MMO to know that!

    I'd just like to conclude in reinforcing the statement that I have never played Warhammer, I never have had the slightest interest to. I would say the majority of the systems I would like to see implemented have come from posts made on these forums by other players, by people I play the game with on my server, and by ideas I would like to see to improve my kinships functionality from a leader perspective.
    If that bothers you so much then perhaps ignore this thread and feel free to troll somewhere else.
    Last edited by Galuhad; Mar 11 2011 at 06:45 PM.
    Galuhad | Narvelan
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  15. #40
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Well, even on the warhammer wiki there is nothing else to be seen, so I don't know why Deyjarl is so adamant about accusing the OP of "IP theft".

    http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Guild

    As if there was such an original idea among it? It's got good basic "upgrades" for LotRO's kinship interface - obviously neither the design nor outlay was copied and there are only so many ways you can arrange tabs. But I am sure if you look long enough there will be some game out there that looks somewhat similar enough to try and taint the effort that the OP has gone through and the time spend to present this.

    But please Deyjarl, do present "what's more to it than listed just on this website" when you happen to have more time than to find the first link that just did not quite have enough to back up what you are saying. At least not to me. The OP has even gone into great detail and your answer was ... rather short and not convincing.

    Don't presume to tell us what's possible and what's not please.

    Other than that it's almost bordering to harassment the way you are accusing the OP - of course that just my point of view as a bystander.

    On the happy side - at least it's not a Wow "clone" - I guess?

    Perhaps we could focus on the topic of the thread - a proposed revamp.
    [CENTER][FONT=Arial][B]Rouven[/B]* – official representative** of the silent[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]U[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial] majority[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]U[FONT=Wingdings]U[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial] for 130 years[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]¸[/FONT][/FONT][/CENTER]

    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c214000000044504/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][SIZE=1][URL="http://my.lotro.com/user-1069763/2011/05/18/the-footnote/"]Important [I]footnotes[/I] to the above can be found here.[/URL][/SIZE][/CENTER]

  16. #41
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    I'm not seeing anything close to a "wholesale" rip-off of someone else's IP or ideas. I am seeing well-developed proposals and concepts for modifications to a system that has been around in MMOs in general for a very, very long time. The fact that some of these things are similar is the nature of the beast, not necessarily due to ripping anyone's ideas off.

    What we experience all around us weaves its way into everything we do. The OP has played a lot of LotRO. Maybe he has played other MMOs, maybe not. Some features he likes, some he does not like, some he thinks would be better if they were made this way or that way. Just like anyone else.

    Sometimes when people are all thinking about the same thing, they come up with solutions that are very, very similar to each other's. They do not have to know anything about the other creator. They do not even need to know this person exists. They are both working towards a "perfect" solution. There are bound to be similarities.

    http://www.slate.com/id/2246107/

    For Ota, the most remarkable thing was not that his design won but how similar his design was to the Soviets'. They, too, had submitted a figure of a man running out a door. He was amazed that two design teams, working independently, would develop such similar concepts, and the coincidence convinced him of the essential rightness of the running man. He came to believe he had designed not just Yukio Ota's exit sign, not just a Japanese exit sign, but a fundamentally human exit sign, one that speaks to some primal cognitive notion of escape.

  17. #42
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    I'm going to /sign on this.

    Also, the similarity to WH is small at best. It's also similar ro PWI. It's also similar to WoW. They all have some things the same, because they're good ideas. They all have some things different, because they're different games. I did not see a wholesale copy. There are hundreds of MMOs out there. The odds of two of them having remarkably similar ideas is inevitable. The odds of a fan making a big QQ because it's a "rip-off" is inevitable.

    Personally, it's not similar enough to warrant a "QQ rip-off" attack, but if we did remove some of the "rip-off" it would lose some awesome. There's a reason a lot of MMOs use a similar guild system: It works.

    That is all.

    No in elenath hîlar nan hâd gîn

  18. #43

    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    That's actually pretty impressive.

    But like the guy who pretty much drew maps and figured out level ranges for all of Middle Earth, I suspect Turbine has zero interest in listening and/or using any of it, even though it would probably help the game.

  19. #44
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Well I am more than happy to talk to the devs from Warhammer about this, they themselves will be able to see that I have never had an account with them. You were asked by many posters here to supply proof that I stole these ideas yet you can't. Why? Because your claims are nothing but a personal attack on me which I should really take further for defamation.

    I have explained my reasons for this design and I see no reason for someone to think them inpossible. As many have already stated, most MMOs have almost identical systems in one way or another, and this is no different.

    As for me replying to your messages, the more you accuse and continue to harass me the more I feel I need to defend myself.
    Galuhad | Narvelan
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  20. #45
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Based on the feedback and suggestions so far I have made a couple of changes to the blessing system in the original post..

    As some pointed out the banner system was too focussed on busy kins that do a lot of instances, so I added a personal blessing system as well so the kin can decide which route they want to take. The banners will remain for groups who need a little help in combat. The personal blessings will be traited and will offer alternative benefits for out of combat, such as increased run speed, XP, map CDs etc.

    The revised blessing window:




    Revised trait window:




    New blessing display in trait window:




    and finally the blessings:




    This information is better described on the first page..
    Galuhad | Narvelan
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  21. #46
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Really great stuff.

  22. #47
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Galuhad View Post
    Based on the feedback and suggestions so far I have made a couple of changes to the blessing system in the original post..

    As some pointed out the banner system was too focussed on busy kins that do a lot of instances, so I added a personal blessing system as well so the kin can decide which route they want to take. The banners will remain for groups who need a little help in combat. The personal blessings will be traited and will offer alternative benefits for out of combat, such as increased run speed, XP, map CDs etc.
    Glad you took my traiting advice. Like the BLESSINGS name. And of course, your graphics really bring the ideas to life.

    Kudos.

    I hope Turbine is listening. I hope they hire a few new developers, and set one specifically on a kinship revamp.

  23. #48
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    I don't understand the Blessing of Perception trait line. -X% Monster XP? That doesn't sound like a Blessing at all.

  24. #49
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiot View Post
    I don't understand the Blessing of Perception trait line. -X% Monster XP? That doesn't sound like a Blessing at all.
    I see a lot of posts from people who ask for some way to halt levelling or to slow it down. For them I think it would be a blessing
    Galuhad | Narvelan
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  25. #50
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    Re: Kinship Revamp Proposal

    Again a very nice visual translation, great job!

    I like everything that does not exist in-game yet. Things that are obtainable already (destiny points/store, through crafting) might be more problematic, does it stack, will it effect economy. I also doubt that Turbine will like to put those in when they are selling it?

    Will non-kinshipmembers feel nerfed if it's too powerful?

    Crafting-crit, will it effect the crafted tools? Is it needed? What is the typical crit chance at end game with the best tool and mastery components?

    Craft-speed, great idea, I can't think of anything negative.

    Mount Speed, I though I read it was capped... so unless that's old news might not work. Not that I won't like to have it! I can imagine this as being perceived too powerful and see the uproar.

    Faction Rep, this is where I can see it the most, maybe reduced destiny costs (not talking about monster play, don't know enough about that), another rebate for vendor costs, perhaps even a skirmish discount? Not too powerful but still enough incentive.

    My 2 copper, can't totally concentrate on it right now, hope it makes sense.
    [CENTER][FONT=Arial][B]Rouven[/B]* – official representative** of the silent[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]U[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial] majority[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]U[FONT=Wingdings]U[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial] for 130 years[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]¸[/FONT][/FONT][/CENTER]

    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c214000000044504/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][SIZE=1][URL="http://my.lotro.com/user-1069763/2011/05/18/the-footnote/"]Important [I]footnotes[/I] to the above can be found here.[/URL][/SIZE][/CENTER]

 

 
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